Conspiracy Theory & Buickman? What's the deal with

[sigma]

Hello Congressman,

Don't you have a trial to attend in Texas

Signed,

All in favor of ethics in congress.

[Chicagoland]

Someone who sold lots GM cars to GM employees is no 'master salesman', that's an 'order taker' or clerk.

And keeping 15 year old car designs around and 'marketing the hck out of them' never works.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Chicagoland

[greg_nate]

End this right now, there are no givebacks to the union. None. That's it.

Want to know what happened with Fiat? GM got caught in a bidding war with Nasser from Ford who was like drunk sailor on shore. They screwed up. They did try to make it work and did get a few production sites out of the deal but unlike Ford who has thrown carloads of cash at Jaguar, Aston Martin and the the rest, GM got out. Do you remember what happened with Daewoo? Care to be reminded? Ford again went bezerk with the bids and then sanity took over. They made an insane bid and then withdrew it. GM picked up the pieces for pennies on the dollar. Now Daewoo is a cashcow.

Besides Roger Smith and his days at the helm the one person that has done the most damage to the US auto industry is Jacques Nasser. He started this stupidity of mega companies by buying and led the entire US industry into the crapper. I dare say if he wasn't the moron he is, Eaton wouldn't have sold the keys to Chrysler (no merger, just a pay off to the chiefs) to Schremp who is just about as stupid as Nasser.

The drunken sailor line cracked me up. Thanks for the insight on Fiat, although I am still unclear how it turned out so unfavorably at the end. I understand the mistakes going into the deal, but how did they get so scathed coming out of it? Seems like liquidating would have made more sense. There must have been some kind of contractual agreement against such.

Or is what GM did, simply normal business - which just happened to coincide with a serious slump year and and high negative critical attention? In other words, would GM have gotten such the negative press about the Fiat mess, if they had been turning huge profits last year?

I don't know what to say about the mega company blurb. It seems everyone is doing it, including Toyota. From what I've read, globalization seems to be the cost cutting solution to a lot of problems - from supply to engineering to labor. Maybe it is just the case that the first few attempts were less than fruitful.

Getting somewhat back to the topic, here's what I think can be said about the "gist" of my original post, and many many others on this forum:

We simply don't trust Wagoner in the competence arena...and as trust starts to deteriorate, it becomes a slippery slope toward not trusting his ethics - which some people such as BM seem to believe.

To add fuel to the fire, you don't see much positive feedback about Wagoner - here or anywhere else. And it hasn't been that way just recently. Its been bad for three years now. People start to wonder.

And when people start to wonder, they want explanations. As posted above, we don't get much of communication from GM, which makes things worse. The best we can do is speculate. Its not too difficult to see how conspiracy theories get started. All that is needed for these theories to *LOSE* traction is a little communicatoin from the company.

We have a lot of insiders that frequently post comments such as "KEEP THE FAITH" regarding product line and direction. I don't see any of them posting "KEEP THE FAITH" with regards to Wagoner. Wagoner needs to be more forthcoming. When Bush isolates in the Oval Office, the same thing happens - and his approval ratings slide like greased lightning. Once he speaks up, no matter how ignorant he may sound, his rating go back up again. The public just wants to be informed.

[Guest buickman]

Obviously you missed me, here's an encore:

Oldsmobile used to deliver over ONE MILLION units in a single year, until GM ran it into the ground. You had better believe that hurt. I am amazed by some of the commnets people make, like cutting 30,000 jobs is good and bankruptcy is OK, being number two doesn't matter, and give Wagoner a couple more years.

York was correct about equality of sacrifice, sense of crisis mode, and perform or get out. Cutting the dividend makes a lot of sense when we're bleeding cash.

There are other answers though, like eliminating the jobs bank, not by cutting the people loose, but by actually putting them to work, what a concept!

Most importantly, the focus needs to be on increasing revenue, not more surgery. This is where Return to Greatness comes into play. It's high time GM implemented this plan which immediately lowers marketing costs, utilizes effective, proven successful principles, and puts GM back in favor amongst the American car buying public.

If G Richard Wagoner wasn't a crook, and really had the corporation's best interest at heart, he would use this plan. Instead he won't, or can't, even tell us what his plan is, or when GM will turn a profit.

...and this guy is still Chairman? WAKE UP & ASK WHY???

Regarding price cuts,

I take exception:

Deception perception foils reception of conception.

Buickman

Founder

www.GeneralWatch.com

Edited January 12, 2006 by buickman

[regfootball]

part of the reason GM lost those million Olds sales was the fact that asians built better cars. without pushrods i might also add, but in any case, it wasn't marketing failure. it was product and manufacturing failure.

[Chicagoland]

From 1980-96 GM stuck with creaky platforms {Ciera}, noisy engines, and faulty FWD drivetrains. That caused Olds and the rest to lose customers.

[!!!TED!!!]

GM HYBRID BUSES ARE MADE OF PEEEEOOOOPLE!!!

*Que Soylent Green creepy music*

ROFL!!!

[Croc]

Buickman Return Count: 3

Seriously, this guy is very pathetic. Only a very lonely person would keep returning when he is no longer welcome.

[fbodfather]

Obviously you missed me, here's an encore:

Oldsmobile used to deliver over ONE MILLION units in a single year, until GM ran it into the ground.

Regarding price cuts,

I take exception:

Deception perception foils reception of conception.

Buickman

Founder

www.GeneralWatch.com

You truly are delusional.

No, I'm not being a gentleman about it anymore, ...you are a fraud and your behavior is reprehensible. (telling Delphi to go on strike???)

The reason Olds sold over 1 million units:

over 60% of Olds Dealerships were dualled with Chevrolet .....Chevy dealers could sell ice to an eskimo in those days.........but here's the real reason: An Olds Cutlass was approx. $200 more than a Chevrolet Monte Carlo in the mid-seventies.........but the INTERNAL costs were substantially more.......that may have been fine back then.....when there were few imports, but the industry has changed. If we did that now, you'd be hollering about that also........

See.....it's easy to take shots.

You say LaNeve and Wagoner have no idea of the retail business.......well, I'm here to tell you that you don't have an idea as to what it takes to run one of the largest corporations in the world.

And since you're being an ass with the ridiculous drivel that you're putting on your site: I'll say it once again.....if you were the top Buick salesman and you'd accomplished that in the North East....or the West Coast....or even Texas, I'd be very impressed. Face it: selling Buicks in Southern Michigan could easily be construed as an "order taker" (yeah.....that was mean and uncalled for.....how's it feel?)

Edited January 12, 2006 by fbodfather

[Newbiewar]

You truly are delusional.

No, I'm not being a gentleman about it anymore, ...you are a fraud and your behavior is reprehensible.  (telling Delphi to go on strike???) 

The reason Olds sold over 1 million units:

over 60% of Olds Dealerships were dualled with Chevrolet .....Chevy dealers could sell ice to an eskimo in those days.........but here's the real reason:  An Olds Cutlass was approx. $200 more than a Chevrolet Monte Carlo in the mid-seventies.........but the INTERNAL costs were substantially more.......that may have been fine back then.....when there were few imports, but the industry has changed.  If we did that now, you'd be hollering about that also........

See.....it's easy to take shots.

You say LaNeve and Wagoner have no idea of the retail business.......well, I'm here to tell you that you don't have an idea as to what it takes to run one of the largest corporations in the world.

And since you're being an ass with the ridiculous drivel that you're putting on your site:  I'll say it once again.....if you were the top Buick salesman and you'd accomplished that in the North East....or the West Coast....or even Texas, I'd be very impressed.  Face it:  selling Buicks in Southern Michigan could easily be construed as an  "order taker"  (yeah.....that was mean and uncalled for.....how's it feel?)

I enjoy your comments Scott, but I prefer if you dont piss yourself off, because I understand Jim wont let down... and I've seen you walk from camaroz28 because of stupid stuff like this... I enjoy your perspective so please take any responses lightly

The only thing that worries me about the chairman are the fact they are all from failed companies....

i think at least one from enron, thats one too many... also others...

Edited January 12, 2006 by Newbiewar

[turbo200]

Obviously you missed me, here's an encore:

Oldsmobile used to deliver over ONE MILLION units in a single year, until GM ran it into the ground. You had better believe that hurt. I am amazed by some of the commnets people make, like cutting 30,000 jobs is good and bankruptcy is OK, being number two doesn't matter, and give Wagoner a couple more years.

York was correct about equality of sacrifice, sense of crisis mode, and perform or get out. Cutting the dividend makes a lot of sense when we're bleeding cash.

There are other answers though, like eliminating the jobs bank, not by cutting the people loose, but by actually putting them to work, what a concept!

Most importantly, the focus needs to be on increasing revenue, not more surgery. This is where Return to Greatness comes into play. It's high time GM implemented this plan which immediately lowers marketing costs, utilizes effective, proven successful principles, and puts GM back in favor amongst the American car buying public.

If G Richard Wagoner wasn't a crook, and really had the corporation's best interest at heart, he would use this plan. Instead he won't, or can't, even tell us what his plan is, or when GM will turn a profit.

...and this guy is still Chairman? WAKE UP & ASK WHY???

Regarding price cuts,

I take exception:

Deception perception foils reception of conception.

Buickman

Founder

www.GeneralWatch.com

Why is he allowed to advertise his site here? I remember when bimmer posted a link to his site and got chewed out about it. But BM advertises his site and gets away with it? What is he giving you Josh to make you drink his kool-aid so much?

[SimonDavid]

The drunken sailor line cracked me up.  Thanks for the insight on Fiat, although I am still unclear how it turned out so unfavorably at the end.  I understand the mistakes going into the deal, but how did they get so scathed coming out of it?  Seems like liquidating would have made more sense.  There must have been some kind of contractual agreement against such. 

Or is what GM did, simply normal business - which just happened to coincide with a serious slump year and and high negative critical attention?  In other words, would GM have gotten such the negative press about the Fiat mess, if they had been turning huge profits last year?

I don't know what to say about the mega company blurb.  It seems everyone is doing it, including Toyota.  From what I've read, globalization seems to be the cost cutting solution to a lot of problems - from supply to engineering to labor.  Maybe it is just the case that the first few attempts were less than fruitful.

Getting somewhat back to the topic, here's what I think can be said about the "gist" of my original post, and many many others on this forum:

We simply don't trust Wagoner in the competence arena...and as trust starts to deteriorate, it becomes a slippery slope toward not trusting his ethics - which some people such as BM seem to believe.

To add fuel to the fire, you don't see much positive feedback about Wagoner - here or anywhere else.  And it hasn't been that way just recently.  Its been bad for three years now.  People start to wonder. 

And when people start to wonder, they want explanations.  As posted above, we don't get much of communication from GM, which makes things worse.  The best we can do is speculate.  Its not too difficult to see how conspiracy theories get started.  All that is needed for these theories to *LOSE* traction is a little communicatoin from the company.

We have a lot of insiders that frequently post comments such as "KEEP THE FAITH" regarding product line and direction.  I don't see any of them posting "KEEP THE FAITH" with regards to Wagoner.  Wagoner needs to be more forthcoming.  When Bush isolates in the Oval Office, the same thing happens - and his approval ratings slide like greased lightning.  Once he speaks up, no matter how ignorant he may sound, his rating go back up again.  The public just wants to be informed.

I read the GM/FIAT Master agreement - it's on the web somewhere. That answers all the questions. Basically GM signed the worst deal in history.

FIAT had the right to force GM to buy FIAT auto, and here's the killer, for 5 years after GM had bought it FIAT would still have a veto over GM's choice of FIAT CEO, GM would not be able to close any plants and FIAT would have to be consulted on any major changes to suppliers or attempted changes to labor contracts. (Remember FIAT would still be a major supplier through magnetti marelli, comau etc). GM would not even own the FIAT name - it would have to license it from FIAT Group.

This is all in a contract that GM signed. Hence FIAT was able to walk off with 4 billion. Any decent board would not just sack the guy who signed this but put him on trial.

[Guest buickman]

Scott,

I can take it as well as dish it out. Please don't hold back in sharing your thoughts, I don't. FYI, I'm really not a negative person. Imagine walking into a very nice room with beautiful furniture and the settings for a grand dinner. Yet as you look around, you notice a light bulb out in one of the lamps. For me, it becomes a priority to change the bulb before enjoying supper.

As much as I feel the coordinated personal attacks on me have been a bit unfair and a distraction from meaningful discussion, let me share this with you. What you and others have done with Z28 is unquestionably one of the best examples of effective marketing that I have seen in any business. You and I have disagreed on many aspects and probably will continue to do so, if we even have further interaction. For now, let me leave it with a compliment to you for resurrecting the Camaro, my respect for your true love for GM, while not deviating from my strongest belief that your faith in Wagoner is most definitely misplaced.

Jim

Buickman

Founder

www.GeneralWatch.com

Edited January 12, 2006 by buickman

[razoredge]

I cant believe the moderaters allowed this post 4 pages of personal bashing but ..........not really. I would have locked it on page one, its one of the most unproductive post on this site yet. So many dont agree with the guy.....BFD. Surely not worth 4 pages of personal attacks. Surely its not all Wagners fault.....BFD.....somethings been going wrong for a long time and well Wagners been there............a long time.......made alot of filthy stinkin money..........so who knows. Im not sure Ive seen anyone point to what Wagner has done for the cause either. I give him credit for the ? million stock he bought back in the spring or summer.......but then again with his income......why not ? What was it again ? 2 million in bonuses last year ? In addition to an annual salary & benefits package equaling how much ?

Still none of this has been worth 4 pages of personal attacks.

I also dont feel this is the place for multiple posts of bashing Wagner either

saturin on the other hand........deserves more than they get ........check the math on saturin

As for who is and is not welcome on this site ? I can only look at the people that made those posts and think back to their input and productivity on this site and consider the source. I will say except for the Wagner bashing Buickman if far less abrasive than some of the other posters.

Some people seem to not know when they are fueling the fire.......or perhaps that is their whole purpose in the first place ?

[evok]

Some people seem to not know when they are fueling the fire.......or perhaps that is their whole purpose in the first place ?

Exactly!

[razoredge]

Exactly!

:AH-HA_wink: across the board

[avant1963]

I left it open because it allows someone like Scott, who's job it is to put together the autoshow for Chevy and HUMMER, to refute alligations that the Hybrid was not on the floor and help kill some of this stupid "plan".

Would you rather people blindly follow without some refutes from those that know, or help people "come to their own conclusions" with words from both sides?

[Croc]

Buickman Return Count: 4

seriously...BAN THE MAN

[Guest buickman]

New program Tuesday, get out of your lease if contract ends by 5-17. Up to 8 months past, pay the remainder. Specifics to be deciphered once dealers sort through new pricing and decode new rebates and lease incentives. I predict the worst January on record for GM. The only niche we are certain of increasing share of are the Philadelphia lawyers, as they are the only ones with half a chance of figuring this mess out.

Buickman

Founder

www.GeneralWatch.com

Edited January 12, 2006 by buickman

[91z4me]

New program Tuesday, get out of your lease if contract ends by 5-17. Up to 8 months past, pay the remainder. Specifics to be deciphered once dealers sort through new pricing and decode new rebates and lease incentives. I predict the worst January on record for GM. The only niche we are certain of increasing share of are the Philadelphia lawyers, as they are the only ones with half a chance of figuring this mess out.

Buickman

Founder

www.GeneralWatch.com

Really worse January on record? Do you know that the Tahoe is already on sale? You do remember that Lucerne is up to full production. Cobalt is doing well. HHR is above expectations. GMT800 trucks are still selling VERY well. Impala is doing fine. Caddy is rolling right along where it should be. SAAB is supposed to be in the black this year!

Yeah worst January on record. BTW posting that a sale or promotion starts next week could be construed as un-ethical but I will leave that up to others.

Oh yeah Mr. Settlemire, I enjoy you being here but I would rather you be writing/talking to Bob Lutz and Rick Wagner about getting a few more engineers on that production schedule than talking to us yahoos.

[Croc]

BAN THE MAN!!

[97regalGS]

Buickman Return Count: 3

Seriously, this guy is very pathetic.  Only a very lonely person would keep returning when he is no longer welcome.

thanks for keeping track of my counter!! unfortunately, i fell asleep before the 3rd coming.

[cmattson]

Ok, let's settle down. No need to get upset. BM is passionate about GM - just like you and me. He's sick and tired of seeing GM sales numbers slip - and he's trying to do something about that. While you or I or half the people on this board may not agree with how he's trying to go about it, or what the plan entails, give him credit for his passion and for trying to make a difference. A good part of GM's issues are marketing.

GM's marketing (if you can call it that) has been pathetic. I can't remember the last time I saw a vehicle advertised based on it's features - instead of it's price. Take a look at the Malibu. While it's styling is very, very conservative (I own one; careful now..), the car has several things going for it:

1. It's gas mileage (4cyl) matches the Accord & Camry, while the 6cyl Malibu handily beats the Accord & Camry V6's.

2. Initial quality: jdpa says it's been #1 for 4 of the past 5 years.

3. Long term durability: jdpa says it's been #1 for 3 of the past 5 years & was 3rd place one of those years as well.

The Camry & the Accords didn't even make the top 3 in any of the previous 5 years.

How about the Silverado? I'm starting to see "Toyota Tough" adds on their Tundra. Why not highlight the hp/torque/towing advantage the Silverado has over the Tundra -- all while offering a larger payload, larger cab, larger bed, and oh yeah: all while delivering the same gas mileage as a Tundra.

GM's got it's competitive advantages; why isn't it's marketing department working with those?

[Croc]

cmatt: Never did I think you would be one to defend an obvious troll on this site. Seriously, lay off the Kool Aid

Oh, Return Count: 5

Edited January 12, 2006 by Croc

[cmattson]

I'm not defending his position (or how he communicates his position). I'm just defending his enthusiasm for my favorite automaker -- along with a side tangent to rip on the way-too-easy target of GM marketing. My kool aid comes in a diet coke can & I drink far, far too much of those throughout the day (my work offers free soda to it's employees).

Edited January 12, 2006 by cmattson

[haypops]

Ok, let's settle down.  No need to get upset.  BM is passionate about GM - just like you and me.  He's sick and tired of seeing GM sales numbers slip - and he's trying to do something about that.  While you or I or half the people on this board may not agree with how he's trying to go about it, or what the plan entails, give him credit for his passion and for trying to make a difference.  A good part of GM's issues are marketing.

The ends don't justify the means. BM seems to unfairly target people and the Rotshchield thing is just code talk for anti-semmatism. He is a waste. You, on the other hand, routinely write the most interesting posts of any non-insider.

[Flybrian]

Cmattson and others, this is the problem I personally have with Buickman...

You're little inconsequential corner of the world is so lacking in relevance that having the privelege of no longer conversing with you complete idiots shall be to my extreme pleasure.

This is what the profession and reputed Jim Dollinger left the last time he voluntarily left C&G. He can say what he wants in a calm, collected manner (which he frankly hasn't really done), but its clear he's here to further his own propaganda and that of his site. This isn't the Dollinger Soapbox, nor will it be. I therefore again respectfully reiterate what I said last time - if you're going to leave, Jim, leave. Quit insulting our members and polluting our board with your one-way arguments and personal agenda.

I really don't care where his heart lies, his mind and his actions lie elsewhere.

[Guest buickman]

I would like to sincerely and humbly apologize for losing my cool previously. Although I felt unjustly attacked repeatedly, en masse through a coordinated effort, and in a personal fashion, I will not offer that as an excuse, simply the reason. That reason, in retrospect, does not justify the verbal lashing I unleashed, and I regret having done so.

Jim Dollinger

[cmattson]

Okay, enough talk about BM and back to ME. ME, ME, ME, ME. Enough about you. Let's talk some more about ME.

You, on the other hand, routinely write the most interesting posts of any non-insider.

Thanks for the kind words HP.

j/k - talk about BM all you want -- it's a free country.

[Croc]

I would like to sincerely and humbly apologize for losing my cool previously. Although I felt unjustly attacked repeatedly, en masse through a coordinated effort, and in a personal fashion, I will not offer that as an excuse, simply the reason. That reason, in retrospect, does not justify the verbal lashing I unleashed, and I regret having done so.

Jim Dollinger

What will it take to get you to leave?

Buickman Return Count: 6

Edited January 13, 2006 by Croc

[CaMIRO]

I left it open because it allows someone like Scott, who's job it is to put together the autoshow for Chevy and HUMMER, to refute alligations that the Hybrid was not on the floor and help kill some of this stupid "plan".

I'd like to add to this thread with some pictorial evidence, if I may.

These photographs were shot at the Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid's press conference unveiling on Sunday, January 8th:

Meanwhile, the following shots were taken today, at the NAIAS Industry Preview on Thursday, January 12th, 2006:

The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid, and associated displays, are clearly still present in Cobo Hall.

[PeterPuck]

I would like to sincerely and humbly apologize for losing my cool previously. Although I felt unjustly attacked repeatedly, en masse through a coordinated effort, and in a personal fashion, I will not offer that as an excuse, simply the reason. That reason, in retrospect, does not justify the verbal lashing I unleashed, and I regret having done so.

Jim Dollinger

You could apologize by not attacking GM leadership to promote your own agenda. You could even reverse some of the damage you've done by publically apologizing for your actions.

And you need to put yourself on the right side of GM history. You've now put yourself in the position of needing GM to fail to justify your entire existence.

GM will recover, and you're still going to be pushing your plan, and saying "IT HAPPENED IN SPITE OF WAGONER!!!".

Edited January 13, 2006 by PeterPuck

[Guest buickman]

If GM did turn it around, they certainly wouldn't need me, your right. As for me, I've plenty else to do besides this campaign. Trouble is, I don't see a management capable of accomplishing the reversal. If they do, which believe it or not would be great, I have a dealership to manage, a real estate company to run and seven kids to raise. I might even buy some golf clubs.

[Guest Josh]

I know that model by the pants she's wearing....sorry but the one in GM's own media pictures I now "know" as well.....damn sorry again.

That said.

Dollinger like the rest of us INCLUDING you Croc can present their own arguments about this company. I'll be honest. I've spoken with Dollinger quite a few times, more than anybody probably out there. But, for somebody to say he should be banned because of just his views on GM proves why some are no longer moderators.

Walt is captain of the ship, he's the boss so he decides what goes and what doesn't.

[Guest buickman]

Josh,

Thanks for supporting the right of free speech. After many at heart discussions I do appreciate the oppportunity to debate ideas pro and con with you. You are truly dedicated to increasing understanding and knowledge of pertinent aspects of our business. I still don't know why our interview never took place, although remain sure you have reasons. I enjoy participating on this site and am grateful for the mechanism for communicating amongst fellow GM loyalists.

Jim

[cmattson]

I know that model by the pants she's wearing....sorry but the one in GM's own media pictures I now "know" as well.....damn sorry again.

Way to buzzkill a thread there Josh.. making most of us realize how fantastic a social life you have - and how lacking ours is. I don't hate the playa 'cuz he's got skilz. <- ok, how did that sound? Did it sound "lame" coming from a 35yr old, married white guy? Anyhoo, it sounds like NAIAS was a success on several levels..

[turbo200]

Josh,

Thanks for supporting the right of free speech. After many at heart discussions I do appreciate the oppportunity to debate ideas pro and con with you. You are truly dedicated to increasing understanding and knowledge of pertinent aspects of our business. I still don't know why our interview never took place, although remain sure you have reasons. I enjoy participating on this site and am grateful for the mechanism for communicating amongst fellow GM loyalists.

Jim

Did the sounds of sucking just become wholly more perceptible to everyone else here? BM, I thought you had enough of us last time when you ran out of the room grimacing. If you were a loyalist, you would be rooting for GM and not asking Delphi to strike, or making up infantile, nonsensical stories about an important car. I've enough of your pollution.

[Croc]

But, for somebody to say he should be banned because of just his views on GM proves why some are no longer moderators.

No, you must not have understood me, or really almost anyone else in this thread for that matter, very well.

First of all, I resigned from being a mod. You know that, the other mods know that, and most of the board public knows that, so why lie? It just hurts you, not me.

Secondly, it is not Jim's views that are offensive. Heavens, that would be censorship! No, what is offensive is his trolling. I think it is pretty obvious at this point that Jim refuses to participate in a discussion. He refuses to respond to anyone's questions or criticisms. That is the same reason we banned rubenoff two years ago. Do you remember rubenoff? He had a Ford Windstar and complained incessantly about the DRL's and that he did not think they met Canadian government regulations. Instead of answering questions, he would post the same, tired posts time and again, much like what Jim does.

Walt is captain of the ship, he's the boss so he decides what goes and what doesn't.

Seriously, Josh, I know you aren't stupid; quit trying to fool me. We both know the moderators handle the warnings and that Fly does the bannings, ever since you became "Staff Writer" back in June. Edited January 15, 2006 by Croc

[balthazar]

Plenty of counterpoints went completely unanswered and unsupported too. I suppose that's not "trolling" from that side of the table tho, is it? Because those counterpoints were all iron-clad and above reproach, not emotional & unilateral rejections saturated with personal politics.

[Guest buickman]

Amen.

[regfootball]

who's the hot chick standing by the tahoe w/ the microphone? NICE.

Edited January 15, 2006 by regfootball

[Guest buickman]

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

John Galt

Edited January 15, 2006 by buickman

[ShadowDog]

Applying Occam’s razor (the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct) doesn’t help when you’re forced to explain GM’s endless F-ups by choosing between gross incompetence and Enron-style shenanigans.

We's a bit overzealous in words without example, aren't we?

Enron-style shenanigans? Example?

Gross incompetence? Example?

I suppose the entire business case for automotive corporations is just to have the perfect management and engineers to make the perfect vehicle for the perfect buyer, making the perfect UAW workers a perfect amount of money. Anything less is SCANDALOUS!

[Guest buickman]

Dealer Advocate

by Jim Ziegler

According to the Detroit Free Press, when reporters bluntly asked if Wagoner had considered stepping aside (resigning) he said, “I haven't given any consideration whatsoever to that. I wasn't brought up to run and hide when things get tough."

Well Rick, resigning may not be your option. Increasingly, it seems to appear there are dark forces in motion in the background lathering up a “lynch mob mentality.” If this was still the Thanksgiving season, there would be little doubt exactly who the turkey on the menu is.

Let me say two words about this to clarify…‘Robert Stempel’.

Crackpot or eccentric genius…return to greatness?

Over the last five years I’ve established some kind of a relationship with a Flint, MI-based automotive industry activist named Jim Dollinger.

Depending on who you talk to, this guy is either a raving lunatic or an inspired genius. (Well, I can certainly relate to that can’t I?) He actually calls himself “Buickman.”

I love it when people comment on my sense of humor in my articles and the double-entendre stuff I throw in every other sentence. You know…the stuff I say that makes you laugh two minutes after you read it.

Well, Dollinger does the same. His stuff is hilarious. For example…he calls GM’s Red Tag Sale, GM’s Red Toe-Tag Sale. Wish I would have thought of that first.

Whether or not I agree with everything he does or says, I relate to this guy and I can see his point of view on many, perhaps most, issues. Is Jim Dollinger a pathetic moron as many would have you to believe…or is he the car messiah…the voice in the wilderness showing us the way out of the desert?

Dollinger tells me he’s the No. 1 Buick salesman in history, selling more than 15,000 new Buicks over the course of his career.

Now get this…this guy stands up at stockholder meetings and openly calls for Rick Wagoner’s resignation. Dollinger has authored a plan titled, “Return to Greatness,” which is a roadmap for General Motors to regain former glory. He’s getting a lot of media attention with TV interviews and newspaper articles covering his writings and his mission. I’m on his e-mail newsletter list and what he has to say, for the most part, makes a lot of sense.

Let me tell you, he has their attention at GM. He’s met with the topper-most of the topper-most of General Motors’ executives. He has them lying awake at night tossing and turning. I promise you he haunts their dreams. His sole mission in life is to get General Motors to adopt his “Return to Greatness” thesis. (It is detailed and complex, filling many pages. You can find Dollinger’s writings at http://www.GeneralWatch.com.)

Well, I gotta tell ya. I’ve spent hours looking over what Dollinger has written and, truthfully, I believe the majority (not all by any means) of what he says will work and will immediately restore a lot of GM’s lost market share. As a matter of fact—remember this guy has only targeted General Motors because that’s where he lives—his ideas would also work for Ford or any manufacturer whose executives would take a moment or two to remove their heads from the deep, warm, moist dark recess in which they’ve placed them.

You want to see something well thought-out by someone who has a clue? I am inviting every dealer, no matter what you sell, to check out Dollinger’s plan. It’s time all of us, every make and model, import or domestic, to send the manufacturers a message:

“We’re tired of your silly incompetence and mismanagement…get out of the retail end of the business…stop interfering…get out of our way and we’ll save your worthless ungrateful butts one more time.”

In truth, the manufacturers are not going to listen to Jim Ziegler or Jim Dollinger or any sane voice of experienced reason. The know-it-all… know-nothing… arrogance of fools in denial always prevails over logic and common sense. They are content to stand their ground pursuing Red Tag Sales and Value Promises…and other ridiculous, non-profitable, alleged marketing strategies that obviously are not working (as in never-ever will work, not in a million, billion or trillion years) while market share dives into the toilet. I am so sick of fire sale, distressed merchandise marketing. I am genuinely ticked off that these manufacturers would resort to ‘Value-Pricing’ and ‘One-Price’ pressure on their dealers to mask their inadequacy and compress profit margins to the point that dealers will suffer and many will die.

I just spoke to Dollinger as I was writing this paragraph and he gave me permission…you may call him at (586) 914-2842…or e-mail him at [email protected].

For the complete article visit:

http://www.dealer-magazine.com/frameset.asp?url=./issues/

[ShadowDog]

Mr. Dollinger,

Your contribution provides an example purely based on a personal interpretation. Truth with facts, and the direct connection of facts is all I am interested in when it comes to situations involving such accusations.

How are we in proving that there's no hybrid technology in a certain SUV? Can we approriately consider the conspiracy theory on such a simple matter as that particular subject to be completely without merit? I'll let you answer that. If that matter can so easily be dealt with, how can anyone possibly believe your theory on a matter involving the whole business that supports and surrounds that Tahoe?

[Guest buickman]

The Tahoe transparency was the work of Mr. Farago, thought that was obvious when reading his piece. Guess it wasn't so clear as many have questioned me about the matter.

Edited January 16, 2006 by buickman

[haypops]

The Tahoe transparency was the work of Mr. Farago, thought that was obvious when reading his piece. Guess it wasn't so clear as many have questioned me about the matter.

And are you likewise claiming that it is Mr Farago, and not you who blames us Jews?

If I tell you that Buickman identifies the main culprits as the Rothschilds, a favorite villain for folks suspecting the secret implementation of a non-democratic “New World Order”,

[mphmag]

is someone seriously suggesting the dealers can save GM?

I think it's time that the car salesmen goes the way of the DoDo. Times they are a changing and people don't want to BS anymore.

That's why Internet sales, even through dealers, are way up.

That's why it's smart to move to no haggle. Maybe Toyota is doing so well because they don't negotiate much on price (from a position of strength of course).

And why Saturn had such a high loyalty rate.

See my manifesto, and I've said it before, is to turn the dealerships into customer service centers. Yep, you heard me. Service, credit and sales.

You walk in and don't feel like you have to be sold something anymore. that will change how customers view the entire experience. They're selling Scions with internet kiosks!

You still need the personal touch, but with the Big box stores selling HDTVs for $5K and no hassle, it's not much of a leap to apply the same logic to a $15K car.

Should I write a big proposal and demand someone adopt it or else?

No i just throw it around my favorite forum for reaction.

[The O.C.]

Well, since this post looks like it's not ending any time soon, I'll post my RESPONSE and OPINION on Buickman's "Plan" yet once again......in hopes that maybe THIS TIME Buickman will provide constructive debate regarding MY responses to his "20 Points?"

Let's see if he provides an intelligent and constructive response......

My responses in BOLD: with his "Points" shortened to save thread space...

This whole plan seems to be a Michigan-centric proposal that does next to nothing to really address the major challenges that GM faces….those challenges being over-capacity, excessive costs, lackluster product, and in many cases, a severly-ineffective dealer body. Not much of this plan seems relevant in the “real world” outside of Michigan or the Midwest, nor does it address the challenge of selling, marketing, and promoting GM vehicles to conquest buyers. GM’s problems are far larger than depicted in these twenty points.

A RETURN TO GREATNESS

Step One: When "The Return" is initially announced, we proclaim the

elimination of Destination Charges.

· First of all, GM needs revenue……and the destination charges are something that’s acceptable industry-wide. There is no reason to get rid of these charges as long as they are in line with other manufacturer’s charges. To do so will reduce one source of revenue for General Motors.

Step Two: Ten days after the original announcement we release the next step,

the elimination of mid-year price increases.

· Customers neither care or probably realize that mid-year price increases actually take place. GM needs to build value in their products and if you build products that people actually want to buy, then occasional mid-year price adjustments won’t be a factor in GM’s success.

Step Three: Announcement of simplified quarterly incentive changes.

· Simplified incentives are fine. However, you will ALWAYS have the situation where someone buys a car and the next day the incentive changes. This will happen whether the incentive is monthly OR quarterly. The very NATURE of the retail automotive industry, in fact ANY sales-oriented industry, is that there will be pressure to “buy now” as companies attempt to meet or exceed monthly, quarterly, or yearly objectives. Furthermore, customers will ALWAYS worry what the “deal” will be. It is in our very nature to negotiate. We do that on houses, and we do that on cars. This is NOT a GM-only fact of life. Furthermore, even if GM WERE to take this step and reduce the “urgency” of the sale, other auto competitors will NOT….and therefore, their existing sense of “urgency” will give them more powerful momentum.

Step Four: Destination Detroit is move number four. In this announcement we

explain our decision to bring all future award winning dealers and

salespeople to Detroit as their reward for a job well done.

· If you are trying to motivate dealers and salespeople, I’m sorry….but a trip to Detroit is NOT going to do it. Hometown pride is great and admirable but it’s a fact of life that Detroit is NOT a leisure or entertainment destination and trying to convince dealers and salespeople to work harder with “Detroit” as a reward will be fruitless at best. I like the idea about a trip to the proving grounds, but in this case, a trip to the Phoenix Proving Grounds would be much more enticing with all the attractions, spas, resorts, and golfing of the Phoenix/Scottsdale area. The expenses saved from executives NOT traveling for this meeting would be minimal and would not strongly impact GM’s bottom line.

Step Five: Home Deliveries. We announce an effort of working with our

dealers to bring the customer the vehicle of their choice, directly to their

place of employment, or residence.

· With every “docs-out” or “home” delivery you do, you take profit opportunities AWAY from the dealership, primarily in the finance department. Maybe home deliveries would be more popular in Michigan, where so many retail customers ARE GM employees….and for them, buying a car is not as big of a deal. In fact, when most GM employees buy multiple cars in a year, and work in the industry, they don’t “need” to take delivery at the dealership. This is most assuredly not the case in the rest of the country. Additionally, customers STILL need to come TO the dealership to shop and negotiate. And in many areas of the country, “spot” deliveries (where the customer takes the car home THAT day) are commonplace. Having a customer wait for a home delivery only reduces profit potential at the dealership AND gives the customer additional time to “rethink” their decision and back out of the deal. It happens.

Step Six: We announce a very simple and easy to understand incentive...Got

GM Get GM. It is a loyalty incentive that anyone can comprehend. If you

currently own or lease a GM vehicle, you receive $1,000.

· A GM loyalty incentive is a good idea. However, you cannot stop offering incentives to owners of competing makes. GM cannot survive on its current owners, employees, and retirees for the purchase of GM cars. GM needs to gain market-share from owners of competing makes and one way to do that is to give them a reason to come into a GM dealership. Unfortunately, at this time, the GM product is NOT enough of a reason to entice these consumers. It may be someday, but not now. Incentives are here to stay and as long as GM remains REASONABLE with their incentives and rebates, that’s not a bad thing.

Step Seven: Annual Model Change.

· Once again, if GM does this, they will be at a severe competitive disadvantage. One of the reasons that vehicle introductions became staggered throughout the year, was to gain the “upper hand” against a competitor that was also bringing out a new and competing model. Back 50 years ago, when competition was much less, the Big Three were a mainstay of the U.S. retail auto industry, and all manufacturers introduced new cars in the fall timeframe, this was a great idea. The very nature of the industry now and the number of competitors makes this an unrealistic practice. GM may decide to wait until the fall to introduce their new models, but their competitors surely will not. The competition will be more successful in pulling consumers into their showrooms to sell them their newest products instead of consumers “waiting” until fall to see what GM has to offer.

Step Eight: Increase Dealer Margin.

· Realistically, any increase in margin will be followed by an increase in price. NOW, if GM products get to a strong enough point of acceptance in the marketplace, this increase in price should not be a big issue. They are NOT at this point of acceptance yet. Asking GM to increase margins without a corresponding increase in price is asking GM to give up revenue they desperately need right now.

Step Nine: Get On The Street. Each month, each salary member of VSSM would

be required to spend one day in a randomly selected dealership service

department, preferably in write up.

· All GM employees, (and employees at any manufacturer for that matter) should spend time working in a dealership to get a true feel for the retail environment. However, I don’t see this as being a big impact to the dealership’s productivity. It’s a good idea, but not a big enough impact to probably be included as one of the points in GM’s “Return To Greatness.”

Step Ten: AARP. This is a fantastic demographic, and another opportunity to

simplify incentives. Make it a year-round program. If you belong to AARP,

you get $500 off any GM product, buy or lease.

· AARP is a good program, and a good targeted marketing incentive. However, like above, the impact is likely to be way too small to add to GM’s “Return To Greatness.” AARP, in the overall scheme of things, is a highly-targeted demographic and a correspondingly small proportion of the car-buying public. This incentive would primarily be aimed at GM retirees or Buick consumers. This incentive would do next-to-nothing towards helping convince shoppers at BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Toyota, or Lexus stores to come into a GM dealership.

Step Eleven: Brand Merchandise Offerings: Include with each delivery a

coupon for $50 off, or towards, merchandise from an affinity catalog.

· Good idea. You could target the brand merchandise offerings to match the individual GM divisional brand image. HOWEVER, once again, the impact from this promotion would do little to correct GM’s market share slide. GM’s problem today is WAY bigger than this.

Step Twelve: Auto Shows. Instead of the current practice of giving rebates

to certain residents of surrounding counties, let's offer auto show tickets

to those who test drive our products.

· Auto shows cost, $9, $10, $11 to get in. I don’t see this as making any impact. Auto show tickets alone aren’t going to bring new consumers into a GM dealership.

Step Thirteen: At year end, instead of giving our employees a cash award for

profit sharing, reward them with stock, and make them true partners in the

company's success.

· A nice idea, however, this does nothing to help fix the “core” problem at GM….and that’s the competitiveness of their products and the perception of GM products in the marketplace by those consumers that GM NEEDS to attract from the Japanese and European car shoppers.

Step Fourteen: PEP Cars. Quite often, GM executives turn in their factory

demos with the mileage just under the next price discount level. This

practice is both frustrating and annoying. The inconsideration shown to

fellow employees, and retirees, is inexcusable and unacceptable.

· No impact from this point. GM PEP cars are a phenomenon that only merits any importance from people living in Michigan (or surrounding states where people work at GM factories, etc.) where the majority of GM company cars are in service. Furthermore, these PEP cars are usually sold to GM employees and retirees. Complaining about losing out on an additional GM discount, when you are already getting a substantial discount on a PEP car is a needless and petty point to argue when it has nothing to do with GM gaining market-share in places like Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, and New York.

Step Fifteen: Referral Savings Account. Similar to the GM Card (another

crisis), GM announces a program to accumulate a savings of $50 for each

referral who buys or leases a new vehicle.

· At $50 per referral, a consumer would never accumulate enough dollars to make the incentive strong enough to pull him/her into a GM dealership. Once again, maybe GM employees in Michigan might utilize such a program but in the REST of the country, how many people do you really think would refer a significant number of people to buy a GM car, then to actually redeem those dollars at a GM dealership? GM has to get people to CONSIDER their products for purchase FIRST before you can think about those consumers actually referring someone to buy a GM vehicle.

Step Sixteen: Free GM Smart Care Maintenance Agreement to all GM Retirees.

This 36 month 36,000 mile program would offer free recommended maintenance

to all GM retirees.

· Simply MORE “legacy costs” at a time when GM most assuredly does NOT need them. GM retirees are NOT going to save GM so there is little point in spending money in this way to further incentivize them. They are most likely going to continue to buy GM vehicles ANYWAY due to the discounts they receive. GM needs to spend money to improve product and increase market share….NOT foster goodwill with retirees.

Step Seventeen: GM Card. This was one of the best programs GM has ever had.

That was until someone decided to take earnings away, and thereby alienate

thousands of employee cardholders.

· I cannot comment as I am unfamiliar with the GM Card and recent activity that has supposedly made it a less-than-desirable incentive.

Step Eighteen: Sales Guilds. For years GM had brand specific sales guilds.

Now, everything is combined into the GM Mark of Excellence. It's a decent

enough program, but it would be more effective to return to the old days of

Buick Salesmaster and the Chevrolet Legion of Leaders.

· Unlikely to strongly impact GM’s falling market-share. The salespeople need good, competitive product to sell. That’s the first step.

Step Nineteen: Direct Factory Communication: Imagine going to your local

dealer and ordering a new vehicle.

· What percentage of GM vehicle purchases are actually custom-ordered? Not many. Due to this fact, this point has very little impact on GM’s overall challenges.

Step Twenty: Reinstatement of Regional Sales Training Classes. Years ago, GM

offered professional sales development classes at their regional training

centers.

· This point adds serious cost, which GM cannot afford right now. Sales training is ALWAYS beneficial, but most manufacturers these days utilize various computer and internet tools to train salespeople. Additionally, the dealership sales managers should be empowered to make sure their respective sales forces are properly trained. That is one function that the individual GM district sales manager should be responsible for on a local level. Regional sales training centers are an unnecessary expense. If a salesperson is not disciplined enough to utilize the computer, internet, and print materials available to him/her, than they shouldn’t be in the business in the first place.

Are some of these ideas good ideas? Sure. However, Buickman initially promoted these "20 Steps" as THE cure for the market-share hangover that GM is currently battling. GM's problems are WAY bigger than this.....and it's going to take ALOT more to overcome the (now country-wide) image, quality, reliability, and desirability perception-problem that an increasingly bigger portion of the car-buying public has about GM's products.

[Guest buickman]

Thanks for again providing your analysis. I tried, but was unable to find the last time you posted this. I do truly appreciate your taking the time to bring up counter points and therefore will put time into my response and post here soon. For now, I would like to mention that I promoted Return to Greatness as the answer to stopping the market share slide and picking up points instead. What you have so graciously replied to were only the first twenty steps. Never did I claim that this was all it would take. Nevertheless, your arguments have validity and are worthy of a thorough review.

Buickman

Founder

www.GeneralWatch.com