It appears Pontiac owners are choosing to look for their next vehicle at. . .

[Justin Bimmer]

GM Orphans Up for Adoption

November 23, 2009

General Motors last week began sending out 1.8 million pieces of direct mail to what the GM logo - 119.JPG automaker calls its "free-agent customers" -- customers orphaned by the wind-down of Pontiac and Saturn and the proposed sell-off of Hummer and Saab.

In this first of promised multiple mailings, GM is offering discounts of up to $2,000 on certain models to the nearly 1 million customers of closed GM dealerships, if they go to the next closest dealer by Jan. 4. The automaker also is giving customers of closed dealerships a vehicle inspection and tire rotation at remaining dealerships through May.

"The challenge for us is to grab those customers by the hand and make sure they know where to go," Susan Docherty, GM's vice president of U.S. sales, said in a media conference call last week.

But GM's competitors also are eyeing those up-for-grabs customers.

All in the Family

Keeping GM orphans in the family is critical for GM to meet its market share goals. GM's post-bankruptcy plan calls for the automaker to achieve 19 percent plus market share to be profitable.

In October, GM's market share matched a high for the year of 21.1 percent with all eight brands counted. Of the total, 19.3 came from the four brands GM is keepin; 1.8 percent came from the brands GM is shedding. That roughly 2 percent of market share could make the difference between profitable and not profitable.

Competitors Eyeing Orphans

While it does what it can to hang onto the free agents, GM has some competition for them. In particular, Ford, Toyota, Nissan and Honda have a good shot at nabbing them. And Hyundai/Kia, on an aggressive march for market share this year, can't be counted out.

Ford's Jim Farley, group vice president of global marketing, told AutoObserver last week that the automaker has no specific marketing aimed at going after GM's orphan customers. But, in the local trenches, Ford dealers are appealing directly to those customers in their marketing as well as by hiring salespeople and fleet managers from defunct GM dealerships, he said.

In October, Edmunds.com cross-shopping data showed:

- Chevrolet was the most cross-shopped brand with Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer shoppers.

- Ford was the most cross-shopped non-GM brand with Pontiac and Hummer shoppers; second with Saturn shoppers. Toyota edged out Ford with Saturn shoppers.

- Nissan and Honda rounded out the list of top five cross-shopped brands for Chevrolet and Pontiac. Toyota, BMW and Jeep rounded out the Hummer top five cross-shops.

- Saab owners could be lost too all import brands as Volkswagen, Audi, BMW and Honda, respectively were the most cross-shopped in October.

October's cross-shopping trend represents a snapshot in time. Cross-shopping can fluctuate from month-to-month depending on new vehicle launches and incentives.

Finding Another Dealer

In addition to eliminating four brands, GM is slashing about a quarter of its dealers. To customers of closed dealers in the family, GM, in its Nov. 16 mailing, is offering discounts up to $2,000 to 950,000 customers of the closed dealerships. It is also offering discounts of between $1,000 and $2,000 on certain models, depending on the customer's "likelihood to purchase a GM vehicle and the relative distance to the next closest dealer," according to a copy of a GM letter to dealers obtained by Automotive News. The sale runs through Jan. 4.

"This is our way of trying to keep our current customers in the GM family by making it easy for them to get back into a dealership," a company spokesperson told the trade journal.

GM assures there will be more chapters to this story, including a wave of incentives to include orphaned Saturn customers early next year. Docherty said GM's strategy to keep customers of its eliminated brands and closed dealerships would be detailed later.

Closed Dealers Angry

Automotive News reports some dealers who are fighting their closure by GM aren't happy about the incentives being offered to their customers to shop elswhere.

"This is an inappropriate time to take such an aggressive measure," Tamara Darvish, a leader of the Committee to Restore Dealer Rights, a group of rejected dealers that is in talks with GM to keep dealerships open, told the publication. "If in fact dealer rights are to be restored, why would GM go in and move all those customers?" -- Michelle Krebs, Senior Analyst and Editor at Large

[Justin Bimmer]

Chevrolet was the most cross-shopped brand with Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer shoppers.

What? Chevrolet and Pontiac being cross shopped? Pffft not possible. Those two brands are NOTHING alike!

[CaddyXLR-V]

What? Chevrolet and Pontiac being cross shopped? Pffft not possible. Those two brands are NOTHING alike!

And everyone wonders why there are dozens of threads complaining about Pontiacs closure? Because every new article that is posted, the first reply is something like the above reply.

[Justin Bimmer]

And everyone wonders why there are dozens of threads complaining about Pontiacs closure? Because every new article that is posted, the first reply is something like the above reply.

I don't think you understand. Pontiacs and Chevys are IDENTICAL. I was not being serious when I posted that. I was making fun of people who think what I put in my first post because the hard DATA shows there really is no difference. They aren't shopping BMW, Porsche, or Audi. They are looking at Chevy and Ford to replace their Pontiacs.

[CaddyXLR-V]

What? Chevrolet and Pontiac being cross shopped? Pffft not possible. Those two brands are NOTHING alike!

And no one ever said G3s G5s and G6s aren't cross shopped with Aveos Cobalts and Malibus. But I doubt the G8 was being cross shopped with the Impala. I bet all that was left in October was G3s G5s and G6s, and the G8s and Solstices are probably sold out. So it only makes sense that Chevy would top the list right now.

[Justin Bimmer]

And no one ever said G3s G5s and G6s aren't cross shopped with Aveos Cobalts and Malibus. But I doubt the G8 was being cross shopped with the Impala. I bet all that was left in October was G3s G5s and G6s, and the G8s and Solstices are probably sold out. So it only makes sense that Chevy would top the list right now.

Good point on that.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I don't think you understand. Pontiacs and Chevys are IDENTICAL. I was not being serious when I posted that. I was making fun of people who think what I put in my first post because the hard DATA shows there really is no difference. They aren't shopping BMW, Porsche, or Audi. They are looking at Chevy and Ford to replace their Pontiacs.

Yes, people like me who have said I would buy a Porsche, BMW, or Audi, and owned a Pontiac GTO. None of us ever said G5s were being cross shopped with the 335i.

[Camino LS6]

And everyone wonders why there are dozens of threads complaining about Pontiacs closure? Because every new article that is posted, the first reply is something like the above reply.

Exactly true.

It's time for that sort of thing to stop, people who are already down about something don't need to be repeatedly kicked in the teeth.

[Justin Bimmer]

I'm waiting to see how far back they go on the scrolls to extend a hand to owners of Pontiacs, Saturns, Hummers, an Saabs.

[Camino LS6]

Scrolls, eh?

They will likely go back to the Firebird era.

[Justin Bimmer]

You know, the owner scrolls. I thought it sounded much cooler than the database.

[Drew Dowdell]

And the teeth kicking will end here.

Everyone should consider this their first verbal warning.

[Camino LS6]

One sometimes has to wonder if GM might still be using scrolls, but let's hope not.

[Robert Hall]

One sometimes has to wonder if GM might still be using scrolls, but let's hope not.

It would be fascinating to do data mining on GM sales data from the last 10-20 years...see who was buying what where..

[Camino LS6]

Sure would.

[A Horse With No Name]

On the positive side, dropped by my local Buick dealer to check out the new LaCrosse in person.

SWEET car.

Chris

[Justin Bimmer]

Isn't this why GM still has EDS? To do all the data running on the Cray?

[Robert Hall]

Isn't this why GM still has EDS? To do all the data running on the Cray?

EDS is owned by HP these days..GM spun it off in '96.

I'm sure GM marketing slices and dices all the data about their customers... I'm not a marketing guy, but as a database and enterprise software guy, I find data mining fascinating.

[Camino LS6]

Back on the news item a bit, 2K might be a good place to start.

I'm just not so sure that it will get them from A to B.

For the owners of the best-loved Pontiacs, they need more product options. For some of the Firebird faithful, the Camaro is a natural progression - but is it enough?

[Robert Hall]

Well, I see Buick w/ the Regal picking up some of the Saturn Aura and G6 market and the Acacia getting the Outlook market. Not sure where Astra owners would go besides the Cobalt and Cruze, though the sales of the Astra were so small that it's not that signficant. And nothing currently for Solstice or Sky fans.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

The more mainstream models are pretty easy to find analogs for at GM's other brands, it's the others that will be more difficult. For the former, a healthy rebate might do the job. For the latter, it will have to be a product-based enticement.

[A Horse With No Name]

Which is why I am glad PCS is doing what he is doing.

Actually I have high hopes for the Holden thing.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

As do I.

Timing will be critical though.

If the economy weren't so grim, I might say that it was already too late. It is that grim though, and ironically, that might buy GM the time it needs to get things right.

[Justin Bimmer]

So here is how I see it. I am trying to be sincere here as well.

Pontiac alternatives at GM

G3 - Aveo

G5 - Cobalt soon Cruze

G6 - Malubu soon Regal

G8 - SS or Zeta soon

Solstice - was going to be canceled anyways, GM is gonna lose that business

Firebird/ TA - Camaro

Saturn alternatives at GM

Astra - Regal, maybe a Regal wagon someday

Aura - Malibu soon Regal

Sky - same as solstice above

Outlook - Acadia, Traverse, Enclave depending on options

Hummer alternatives at GM

IDK, maybe GMC trucks/ SUVs?

Saab alternatives at GM

I think GM is trying to use Buick as the carrot here.

So it appears from my scroll reading that Buick is going to be taking on the brunt of the new GM orphans.

[Oracle of Delphi]

EDS is owned by HP these days..GM spun it off in '96.

I'm sure GM marketing slices and dices all the data about their customers... I'm not a marketing guy, but as a database and enterprise software guy, I find data mining fascinating.

EDS still has significant contracts with GM, who do you think the OnStar people are that you get when you push that little button,? Who do you think is still running their Legacy systems? GM? Nahhh it's (Every Day Sucks) ...

[Robert Hall]

EDS still has significant contracts with GM, who do you think the OnStar people are that you get when you push that little button,? Who do you think is still running their Legacy systems? GM? Nahhh it's (Every Day Sucks) ...

I thought that was Hughes that did OnStar. EDS is part of HP now (HP Enterprise Services). What I meant is GM doesn't own EDS anymore, hasn't since '96.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Data_Systems

I interviewed w/ EDS back in the '90s, didn't pursue it because I decided living in Colorado looked a lot more appealing than living in Texas...

Edited November 23, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Oracle of Delphi]

I thought that was Hughes that did OnStar. EDS is part of HP now (HP Enterprise Services). What I meant is GM doesn't own EDS anymore, hasn't since '96.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Data_Systems

I interviewed w/ EDS back in the '90s, didn't pursue it because I decided living in Colorado looked a lot more appealing than living in Texas...

Thanks, but I know all there is to know about EDS and GM's ISS.

[Camino LS6]

So here is how I see it. I am trying to be sincere here as well.

Pontiac alternatives at GM

G3 - Aveo

G5 - Cobalt soon Cruze

G6 - Malubu soon Regal

G8 - SS or Zeta soon

Solstice - was going to be canceled anyways, GM is gonna lose that business

Firebird/ TA - Camaro

Saturn alternatives at GM

Astra - Regal, maybe a Regal wagon someday

Aura - Malibu soon Regal

Sky - same as solstice above

Outlook - Acadia, Traverse, Enclave depending on options

Hummer alternatives at GM

IDK, maybe GMC trucks/ SUVs?

Saab alternatives at GM

I think GM is trying to use Buick as the carrot here.

So it appears from my scroll reading that Buick is going to be taking on the brunt of the new GM orphans.

What I find interesting are the holes in that layout. They start with the G6 and the lack of bodystyles at other brands. Then move to the vaporware (as of today) of a Zeta sedan. Followed by the end of Kappa which could/should be so much more (Alpha someday?). Then onward to the omission of the GTO in that list. I see this as a significant hole because GTO owners came to expect a higher level of refinement than perhap even G8 buyers do. The Camaro really isn't an analog for that car.

The Firebird to Camaro translation has some merit to be sure. However, the last Firebird and the current Camaro are very far apart in both form and function - so the translation is not perfect.

That leaves the Astra comparison, which doesn't really work - but perhaps doesn't really matter as the Astra never had a chance to gain much of a following.

Those Pontiacs and Saturns I left out really do translate without effort, and we can just forget about the Vibe, I think.

For Hummer and Saab, that ship really has sailed. The one possible exception might be a GMC version of the HX making production.

[Justin Bimmer]

Well, GTO owners will have a CTS coupe to buy. I know it is more expensive, but it goes in the same line as a high refinement coupe.

[Camino LS6]

Well, GTO owners will have a CTS coupe to buy. I know it is more expensive, but it goes in the same line as a high refinement coupe.

True enough.

But I think that the price premium will leave those folks largely orphans.

[Camino LS6]

Right now, as a former Firebird and GTO owner, I am pinning my hopes on future product from Chevrolet.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Right now, as a former Firebird and GTO owner, I am pinning my hopes on future product from Chevrolet.

If I am going to get a GM vehicle, it will either be Alpha, or Holden if PCS is able to get them sold here.

Edited November 24, 2009 by CaddyXLR-V

[vonVeezelsnider]

Well, I see Buick w/ the Regal picking up some of the Saturn Aura and G6 market and the Acacia getting the Outlook market. Not sure where Astra owners would go besides the Cobalt and Cruze, though the sales of the Astra were so small that it's not that signficant. And nothing currently for Solstice or Sky fans.

Over the long term I'd see some of them going to that new Buick which is essentially an Astra.

[2QuickZ's]

My last 4 new car purchases/leases consisted of 2 Saabs and 2 Saturns, I wonder what they will offer me? Not to mention when I saw the writing on the wall for Saturn back in the spring I sold the Aura and bought a used Pontiac. :lol: The problems with keeping me in the fold with GM in the short term are the following:

- Everything I was passionate about has been killed (G8, HHR SS, Cobalt SS sedan, and others) or is out of my price range (CTS) meaning I'm more likely to buy a used car

- Everything I a currently interested in and could afford hasn't hit the market yet (Regal, Cruze, Buick version of Astra)

- I'm dissatisfied with the quality of a couple of my recent purchases which is ironic with GM's supposedly much improved quality. Lesson learned: don't buy a first year GM vehicle, let alone do it twice in a row. They don't launch them as well as other companies manage to.

- I'm very dissatisfied with the way I was quickly and easily dismissed by GM over an obvious and known GM defect on a vehicle out of warranty (most damning to me of all)

I'm not going to say I won't buy another GM vehicle because I'm sure I will some day. I won't even say my next new vehicle will not be GM because their is a small possibility it will be. It's going to take a lot of convincing, though, and that is coming from a GM fan, child of a GM retiree, 38 year old purchaser of 8 new vehicles since 1995, 7 of which were GM products, Camaro enthusiast (until the 5th gen) and owner of probably 15+ used GM vehicles since I was 15 including 3 Camaros and a couple of classic GM iron. My worry is that if GM can't keep me, they are certainly going to have a hard time keeping the average buyer. I could be wrong, though.

[GMTruckGuy74]

- I'm dissatisfied with the quality of a couple of my recent purchases which is ironic with GM's supposedly much improved quality. Lesson learned: don't buy a first year GM vehicle, let alone do it twice in a row. They don't launch them as well as other companies manage to.

See now, some of my last vehicle purchases have been recently launched new GM models and outside of a few problems, have been very reliable and made me wonder if GM did turn a leaf. I bought a new 2004 Chevy Malibu LT in November, 2003 (they were only 1.5 months old at the time); a new 2007 Saturn SKY roadster in April, 2006 (I was my dealership's 2nd SKY); and then in November, 2006 I leased the 2007 Saturn AURA XE (look at that, two new intro'd models on one year!).

Now I'm not trying to discredit the problems you had with your vehicles at all. I'm just saying that not everyone has a problem with a first-year vehicle - look at how many new vehicles are sold in the first year alone! And GM has gotten better at making their new models, you have to see some merit with that.

Back on topic, I guess the wife may get one of these letters since she was the one to buy last (her Pontiac in 2008); with me being a prior Saturn owner, I guess I'll have to wait for my letter sometime in early 2010. I'm enjoying the '96 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham for the time being, but it is only a matter of time until the "new car bug" gets ahold of me. Any extra incentive(s) GM wants to offer me will be greatly appreciated!!