The Chevrolet Spark

[daves87rs]

With the upcoming Cruze at 40 mpg... why on earth would anyone sacrifice their safety, comfort and coolness quotient by driving a Spark at, what, 42 mpg?

It's called price.

The Cruze is going to be a bit more than Cobalt.

For those looking for a first/commuting car, what are they going to buy?

[ocnblu]

A used Cobalt?

Seriously, I just hope GM's upcoming tiny cars (Aveo and eventual Spark) are fun to drive, priced appreciably below their own compacts and show a great fuel economy number. I really truly feel the Spark is too trendy, too ugly and will have a short shelf life.

The new European VW Polo is mature, substantial and modern without being trendy... and with TDI power, it gives stratospheric fuel mileage. I guarantee it is not a penalty box, but a fun to drive, solid Volkswagen, if past history is any indicator. GM's tiny car history is abysmal in comparison here in the US, at the very least. Sprint, Metro, Aveo... who cares?

[A Horse With No Name]

...'blu...I am feeling really good about GM for the first time in a really long time. I just have to trust that they will do the right thing.

Chris

[CARBIZ]

I would have expected a more intelligent, less visceral response coming from ocnblu... I've driven the Aveo as a demo more than once, and it is far from a horrible car. It may not measure up to YOUR standards of 'fun to drive' (whatever the hell that is!), but people looking to spend $10k or so on a new car to go from A to B, want a good warranty, a reliable vehicle that is easily serviced would happily buy an Aveo, or the upcoming Spark. Sure the Cruze is a better car, even the TDI - but not everyone has that kind of cash to dole out.

VW's quality numbers have been in the $h!ter for a very long time. German engineering? Good God! Not everyone wants to spend $20k+ to drive around an econobox. If I had to drive a car that small, I'd rather spend sub-$15k, thanks! Otherwise, give me a 1 or 2 year old Malibu, thanks!

The trouble is, the 'enthusiasts' are killing this business. They have pulled the auto companies in 10 different directions. Hell, we'd have cars that get 100 mpg by now if the horsepower wars of the the past 10 years hadn't hijacked the agenda - again! Whether posters around here like it or not (and I know this is an unpopular opinion), the days of drag racing and weekend warrior are coming to an end. Sandwiched between skyrocketing insurance rates, overzealous officers ticketing everything in sight, and CAFE ratings, we are destined to drive golf carts in the near future - probably electric ones at that.

I just can't believe Americans time and time again vote for V8s when they are sending buckets of cash to Venezuela, the Middle East and other places that are using that money to incite hatred and violence against the U.S. It makes no sense to me at all!

[Camino LS6]

Enthusiasts killing the business?

C'mon, that's just absurd.

[Robert Hall]

Enthusiasts killing the business?

C'mon, that's just absurd.

That's one of CARBIZ's standard themes...he's repeated it several times here before.

[Robert Hall]

I just can't believe Americans time and time again vote for V8s when they are sending buckets of cash to Venezuela, the Middle East and other places that are using that money to incite hatred and violence against the U.S. It makes no sense to me at all!

How about Canada? You realize the US imports twice as much oil from Canada than Venezuela and about 3 times as much from Canada as Saudi Arabia..Mexico is 2nd only to Canada.

US Oil imports

[Drew Dowdell]

Enthusiasts killing the business?

C'mon, that's just absurd.

No, not really. Look at all the hubub over the Lacrosse having the 3.0 or even the Ecotec... as if every vehicle needs CTS-V like 0-60 times in every trim. I'm wondering what the 3.0's real world mpg numbers will be like . I'm driving a 3.0 powered Equinox right now and on the highway I'm seeing 28mpg instead of the EPA rating of 25mpg.

Where Carbiz is going with this is how the enthusiast media (outside of Consumer Reports) insists that a car is crap unless it's nurburgring ready. For 90% of drivers a 4 cylinder Lacrosse would be more than competent. Watch for the articles bashing it.

Is it really necessary for every beige Camry to have 270hp?

[Camino LS6]

It's the suggestion that enthusiasts are responsible that's absurd.

The industry barely even acknowleges us anymore.

[Robert Hall]

No, not really. Look at all the hubub over the Lacrosse having the 3.0 or even the Ecotec... as if every vehicle needs CTS-V like 0-60 times in every trim. I'm wondering what the 3.0's real world mpg numbers will be like . I'm driving a 3.0 powered Equinox right now and on the highway I'm seeing 28mpg instead of the EPA rating of 25mpg.

Where Carbiz is going with this is how the enthusiast media (outside of Consumer Reports) insists that a car is crap unless it's nurburgring ready. For 90% of drivers a 4 cylinder Lacrosse would be more than competent. Watch for the articles bashing it.

Is it really necessary for every beige Camry to have 270hp?

The magazines have reviews of pedestrian models all the time---n-way comparisons of family sedans, compacts, crossovers, etc.

Obviously, cover stories of supercars and other performance vehicles get attention and sell magazines. But the magazines still run articles on the mainstream stuff.

[the_yellow_dart]

As I get older, my priorities are shifting away from my car. Not that my enthusiasm will go away - I'll probably always watch the new car market.

If the Cobalt were to die today, I'd be considering this class of car, and given the ugliness out there right now, I'd probably buy a used compact instead.

[Drew Dowdell]

The magazines have reviews of pedestrian models all the time---n-way comparisons of family sedans, compacts, crossovers, etc.

Obviously, cover stories of supercars and other performance vehicles get attention and sell magazines. But the magazines still run articles on the mainstream stuff.

And the only ones that get positive press are the ones that have lots of power. Thus the 270hp Accords and Camrys. There's the "less of a man" implication that goes with 4-cylinders.

[Z-06]

And the only ones that get positive press are the ones that have lots of power. Thus the 270hp Accords and Camrys. There's the "less of a man" implication that goes with 4-cylinders.

Most of the time those magazines add caveats that they are "enthusiasts" and they test those 4 bangers because they have to - and that is what "people" buy. Honda Accord has been trumping Camry for years in magazines because of its sportiness, yet Camry still leads the sales.

[pow]

Most of the time those magazines add caveats that they are "enthusiasts" and they test those 4 bangers because they have to - and that is what "people" buy. Honda Accord has been trumping Camry for years in magazines because of its sportiness, yet Camry still leads the sales.

Good driving dynamics and control feel have "practical" applications as well, namely safety and comfort. A supportive seat and good ergonomics keep you alert on long drives, while linear brakes, controlled body motions, and accurate steering help you to avoid accidents.

The complaints about the 3.0L V6 in the LaCrosse have less to do with power - and more about its hefty curb weight, sluggish transmission tuning, and poorer fuel economy relative to the 3.6L version.

[Z-06]

Good driving dynamics and control feel have "practical" applications as well, namely safety and comfort. A supportive seat and good ergonomics keep you alert on long drives, while linear brakes, controlled body motions, and accurate steering help you to avoid accidents.

The complaints about the 3.0L V6 in the LaCrosse have less to do with power - and more about its hefty curb weight, sluggish transmission tuning, and poorer fuel economy relative to the 3.6L version.

+1 on those. But the fact remains that the bread and butter goes to the cars which may not come with with salient features you mentioned.

[Camino LS6]

All of which is moot for a car that is simply too damn ugly to sell.

Trust me, this thing will flop.

[Robert Hall]

All of which is moot for a car that is simply too damn ugly to sell.

Trust me, this thing will flop.

If the price and content are right, it will sell, esp. when gas goes back up. A percentage of the target market will like the radical styling. The Cube and Soul are selling well, they are just as radical.

Just because you (or I) don't like the styling, doesn't mean others won't find it appealing.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Croc]

If the price and content are right, it will sell, esp. when gas goes back up. A percentage of the target market will like the radical styling. The Cube and Soul are selling well, they are just as radical.

Just because you (or I) don't like the styling, doesn't mean others won't find it appealing.

You get it.

[CaddyXLR-V]

No, not really. Look at all the hubub over the Lacrosse having the 3.0 or even the Ecotec... as if every vehicle needs CTS-V like 0-60 times in every trim. I'm wondering what the 3.0's real world mpg numbers will be like . I'm driving a 3.0 powered Equinox right now and on the highway I'm seeing 28mpg instead of the EPA rating of 25mpg.

Where Carbiz is going with this is how the enthusiast media (outside of Consumer Reports) insists that a car is crap unless it's nurburgring ready. For 90% of drivers a 4 cylinder Lacrosse would be more than competent. Watch for the articles bashing it.

Is it really necessary for every beige Camry to have 270hp?

People may not need CTS-V 0-60 times, but the majority also do not want 10 sec 0-60 times either. Are you saying car magazines are convincing non-enthusiasts to spend more money to get a more powerful engine, even though they don't care about a bigger engine? Don't you think some of those people may drive it and feel that there's not enough power, regardless of what a magazine says? If enthusiasts had so much power to control the market, why are there 10 FWD cars to every RWD car?

[Robert Hall]

If enthusiasts had so much power to control the market, why are there 10 FWD cars to every RWD car?

Precisely. The mass market wants functional, reliable vanilla FWD generics, that's what sells in volume, along with equally dull trucks. Enthusiast-oriented cars are a very small percentage of the market.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

If the price and content are right, it will sell, esp. when gas goes back up. A percentage of the target market will like the radical styling. The Cube and Soul are selling well, they are just as radical.

Just because you (or I) don't like the styling, doesn't mean others won't find it appealing.

I agree 100%. We think about what we as a community of car nuts would buy rather than the average Joe on the street.

But...giving credit to my wife and daughters...they are ALL starting to just HATE the Cube. They already hated the Soul.

Kind of cool. The other day I suggested that we could do the laundry, clean out the garage, clean the kids rooms, mop the hardwood floors...or go test drive a new Cube and go out for Pizza.

The house got cleaned!

Chris

[Robert Hall]

The other day I suggested that we could do the laundry, clean out the garage, clean the kids rooms, mop the hardwood floors...or go test drive a new Cube and go out for Pizza.

The house got cleaned!

Chris

Watching a Cube on the freeway in traffic last week a couple of times, I think some of it's details (the side windows in particular) are downright wierd....

[Camino LS6]

Disagree.

This thing is universally ugly like the aztek.

It will fail.

Place your bets.

[A Horse With No Name]

I still think it will fail...which will cause GM to move away from small cars...which means they will get caught with their pants down again when the price of fuel goes up...which means they will have another government bailout...which means we will loose Buick and they will become part of Chevrolet...

Sometimes life is a lot like watching Roscoe and the Duke boys chase each other around the big oak tree in Hazzard County.

The General Lee always flys through the air and gets wrecked, the cop cars get destroyed, Boss hog looses..no one learnes anything...the same stupidity happens again next week...

GM sometimes is a lot like a girl a knew in high school. Unable to learn from past mistakes.

Chris

[CaddyXLR-V]

Precisely. The mass market wants functional, reliable vanilla FWD generics, that's what sells in volume, along with equally dull trucks. Enthusiast-oriented cars are a very small percentage of the market.

But that also shows the mass market also wants powerful engines. It's not enthusiasts getting automakers to put 270hp engines in the Camry, it's the mass market, or at least a portion of the mass market. Enthusiasts don't buy Camrys.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Disagree.

This thing is universally ugly like the aztek.

It will fail.

Place your bets.

I have to agree with you here. The Spark is so badly proportioned it makes a Yaris look good. Some of them will sell, to people who really don't care what their car looks like as long as they get the lowest price, but it will not be a hit.

[Robert Hall]

Here's the first magazine 'first drive' I've seen of the Spark, from Car magazine (UK).

Car magazine Spark review

"first impressions of the Spark are of a competent car with a surprisingly grown up and spacious feel to it."

143.3 inches overall length, 1904lbs.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

People may not need CTS-V 0-60 times, but the majority also do not want 10 sec 0-60 times either. Are you saying car magazines are convincing non-enthusiasts to spend more money to get a more powerful engine, even though they don't care about a bigger engine? Don't you think some of those people may drive it and feel that there's not enough power, regardless of what a magazine says? If enthusiasts had so much power to control the market, why are there 10 FWD cars to every RWD car?

Yes. "Mom" wants a practical car. "Dad" who thinks of himself as an "enthusiast" and had a Camaro when he was 18 want's something with power so he can get his 3 second thrill flooring it on the highway on a Saturday afternoon. The only way "Dad" will get any is if Mom gets the practical CamCordima... thus the "need" for a 270hp Camry/Accord/Altima. In reality, "Mom" would be just fine with the 4-cylinder and wouldn't even drive it more than 6/10ths.

There are 20 FWD cars for every RWD car because even though women are only 50% of the market, they control somewhere around 90% of household purchases. The high power front drivers are ultimately compromises to appease the real power in the market.

[A Horse With No Name]

Here's the first magazine 'first drive' I've seen of the Spark, from Car magazine (UK).

Car magazine Spark review

"first impressions of the Spark are of a competent car with a surprisingly grown up and spacious feel to it."

143.3 inches overall length, 1904lbs.

Still, most people would rather drive a car like the Volt, Cruze, TDI VW, Prius, Fusion Hybrid, et al.

Still think GM needs a first class entry in this segment, still not sure this car is going to do it.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Still, most people would rather drive a car like the Volt, Cruze, TDI VW, Prius, Fusion Hybrid, et al.

Still think GM needs a first class entry in this segment, still not sure this car is going to do it.

Chris

That's how I see it, except that I'm sure this isn't the car that they need in the segment.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hence my bitterly sarcastic post above about the Duke boys.

We've been round this tree before...aveo....(cough...cough...)

[smk4565]

Since GM hasn't made a good small car in, well forever, I doubt the Spark will be any good. The Ford Fiesta is going to dominate the compact segment when it gets here anyway.

[FloydHendershot]

Disagree.

This thing is universally ugly like the aztek.

It will fail.

Place your bets.

Well, this is where Pontiac went out on that limb and good for them. Easily they could have just stuck to the same old but in their defeat they opened the door. For what I don't know. Does anyone?

20K per year not awful but not outstanding. Gut reaction want to know who was watching.

[regfootball]

To me, I'd take about anything unique and unusual to cruise around in for a day.

Chris

you can borrow the aztek any time.

[regfootball]

I think the thing to remember here, is that even in a world of $5/gal. gas, cars like the Spark are at the extreme end of the spectrum. Couple that with a known cultural resistance to tiny cars, and the wisdom of selling the car comes into question.

Might be a good idea, might not.

It would certainly be a gamble.

if i am forced into crackerboxes like the spark, i WILL convince the wife to move to a warm state, and get a motorcycle for myself. there's my contribution to saving the planet.

[regfootball]

Think of it as part of a complete portfolio. Here in Ohio farm country, people will still buy trucks at $5.00 a gallon.

People will still buy Camaros. There will be a market for small cars.

The challenge for GM is to put $ on the bottom line. The Aveo is a decent bargain basement car. However, I would be willing to bet that the margin on a MINI, C30 Volvo, GTI VW, et al is a LOT more than the general makes on a Cobalt.

GM needs to build a segment leader and be able to price it as such.

Around here, the Fit sells for sticker, while the local Nissan dealers and the local Toyopet dealers are selling the Versa and the Yaris at fire sale prices.

GM needs to go at this with the idea that they will make money from this car and that it will be a unique car people will want. Given how pathetic the Yaris, Aveo, Smart, Suzuki, et al products are, GM should be able to do this. Should be like fishing with dynamite.

Chris

i figure that by Nov 2012, gas will be back up over 4 bucks, and the ATS with a turbocharged 4 cylinder would be about the right vehicle for that time when it hits market.

[ocnblu]

So, it's 2020 and I need to go to Pep Boys. When I approach the counter and ask for Spark plugs, will the counter kid get all confused? Because I don't want to make his life miserable, I will never buy a Spark.

I imagine the Outback version would be called the Spork, since it would be marketed as a "multi-purpose vehicle".

[CARBIZ]

Yes. "Mom" wants a practical car. "Dad" who thinks of himself as an "enthusiast" and had a Camaro when he was 18 want's something with power so he can get his 3 second thrill flooring it on the highway on a Saturday afternoon. The only way "Dad" will get any is if Mom gets the practical CamCordima... thus the "need" for a 270hp Camry/Accord/Altima. In reality, "Mom" would be just fine with the 4-cylinder and wouldn't even drive it more than 6/10ths.

There are 20 FWD cars for every RWD car because even though women are only 50% of the market, they control somewhere around 90% of household purchases. The high power front drivers are ultimately compromises to appease the real power in the market.

No less than Wards Auto did an article on Apr 26, 2006, entitled "Tyranny of the Enthusiasts." John McElroy penned the article. It's the downright derogatory tone of self-appointed flabby, middle-class writers who turn their noses up at an Aveo or Taurus because of its 'mundane' steering or ride, while lavishing heaps of praise on a 300+ horsepower sedan. WTF? Why? Unless you live in Montana, where the hell can you drive these vehicles to their full potential anyway? Are men's penises getting smaller these days?

Let me tell you 2 stories from my hundreds of anecdotes: 1) Friend buys an Acura TL, leasing it for $650/month. He bitches to me that it takes premium gas and the insurance is killing him. I laugh at him and say I could have leased him an Intrigue GLS for $150 a month LESS. How many horspower does the TL have, I ask. He shrugs. Is it a 6 or an 8 I ask him ( I know the answer, but I want to see if he does!) Another shrug. Why did you lease it, then? Oh, because he read in a car magazine that it was a fun car to drive.

Story 2: My manager of 5 years, who worked for GM for over 30, died of cancer (this was back in '04). His widow dropped off their leased Alero and was off to a BMW store to pick up a new 3-series. The lady is nearly 65. Would she not have been better suited by a LaCrosse? Ah, but I see her 30-something year old son, sitting in his 5-series waiting to escort her. I choke back remarks about his gold-plated education being paid for by GM, while I remove the license plates from her Alero. I know this lady well: she wouldn't know a key fob from her broach if someone didnt't show it to her: an ideal BMW/Honda buyer if I ever saw one.

So, yes, enthusiasts have killed the auto industry. Maybe not all by themselves, but they surely have led the way. When they bitch and moan about 'soft plastics' and 'overhangs' to justify their existence (and big paychecks), it gets silly and plain boring to read their rants.

[CARBIZ]

Since GM hasn't made a good small car in, well forever, I doubt the Spark will be any good. The Ford Fiesta is going to dominate the compact segment when it gets here anyway.

And this is why Detroit will die: so-called fanboys who shoot a model down BEFORE IT'S EVEN LAUNCHED. And your opinion is based on what facts, exactly? Have you test driven the last Ford Fiesta offered on these shores (how many years ago was that, exactly?), and compared it to the latest Aveo? Hell, have YOU even been to Europe and driven the new Fiesta? The Spark is more than a year away from launch and yet the naysayers line up to throw fuel on the fire to watch it burn.

Just like the Volt.

The biggest reason I stopped reading C&G, after 5 years on this site was the mewling of people who sounded more like spoiled babies (My brand has been killed/why don't they bring back hard tops/minivans are for sissies/why doesn't GM have a 5spd/6spd/20spd transmission yet/the Cobalt is a POS because [insert favorite pev peeve here]) - and this comes from people who, what, see one on a dealer lot? Oh, I know - they test drove one for 20 minutes!!! Yay, I'm an expert.....

I need a drink.....

[Drew Dowdell]

And this is why Detroit will die: so-called fanboys who shoot a model down BEFORE IT'S EVEN LAUNCHED. And your opinion is based on what facts, exactly? Have you test driven the last Ford Fiesta offered on these shores (how many years ago was that, exactly?), and compared it to the latest Aveo? Hell, have YOU even been to Europe and driven the new Fiesta? The Spark is more than a year away from launch and yet the naysayers line up to throw fuel on the fire to watch it burn.

Just like the Volt.

The biggest reason I stopped reading C&G, after 5 years on this site was the mewling of people who sounded more like spoiled babies (My brand has been killed/why don't they bring back hard tops/minivans are for sissies/why doesn't GM have a 5spd/6spd/20spd transmission yet/the Cobalt is a POS because [insert favorite pev peeve here]) - and this comes from people who, what, see one on a dealer lot? Oh, I know - they skimmed the review in Honda and Driver!!! Yay, I'm an expert.....

I need a drink.....

one flaw in your story..... edit that for ya...

[Drew Dowdell]

It's the SMK like "enthusiasts" that kill the industry.

[Camino LS6]

Carbiz, I have always put my money where my mouth is - and to date have only purchased new GM vehicles. So, with no disrespect to you, your argument doesn't wash.

Will I ever buy a vehicle in this segment? No, under no cicumstances, no matter the cost of fuel. But that doesn't make the Spark any more good-looking, nor does it make it competitive.

We've already seen pictures posted in this thread of far more palatable and accessible designs within the segment. And as far as enthusiasts go, they'll never buy a car like this in the first place so they are no factor whatsoever. I am concerned though, that GM would risk putting a potential laughingstock like the Spark on the market. They can Ill-afford having any new entry in any segment becoming the butt of jokes.

I really hope that GM reconsiders their plans to offer this car in our market as I believe it will damage their improving reputation. They need to go back into the design studio and try again.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Camino LS6

[vonVeezelsnider]

I know my opinion doesn't count because barring some form of communism taking hold in North America I will never drive a car that small.

Although I have no idea how it drives (could drive like a Corvette for all I care), I don't like the Spark- in my eyes it's butt ugly. There aren't words in the English language to describe how I detest that instrument setup as well. I find it completely mystifying that GM can develop such a good looking car in the Cruze and then just drop the ball entirely.

Edited November 28, 2009 by vonVeezelsnider

[Z-06]

Since GM hasn't made a good small car in, well forever, I doubt the Spark will be any good. The Ford Fiesta is going to dominate the compact segment when it gets here anyway.

You know that Spark does not compete with Fiesta but the Ka, don't you?

Carbiz, I have always put my money where my mouth is - and to date have only purchased new GM vehicles. So, with no disrespect to you, your argument doesn't wash.

Will I ever buy a vehicle in this segment? No, under no cicumstances, no matter the cost of fuel. But that doesn't make the Spark any more good-looking, nor does it make it competitive.

We've already seen pictures posted in this thread of far more palatable and accessible designs within the segment. And as far as enthusiasts go, they'll never buy a car like this in the first place so they are no factor whatsoever. I am concerned though, that GM would risk putting a potential laughingstock like the Spark on the market. They can Ill-afford having any new entry in any segment becoming the butt of jokes.

I really hope that GM reconsiders their plans to offer this car in our market as I believe it will damage their improving reputation. They need to go back into the design studio and try again.

+1 on this. GM needs solidly good and solid designs in all the categories from Sub-compacts to 3500 duallies. This car looks like an odd one out after seeing what GM has brought over the last 4 years. Spark's concept was not bad but this execution here left me wanting for more.

[CaddyXLR-V]

No less than Wards Auto did an article on Apr 26, 2006, entitled "Tyranny of the Enthusiasts." John McElroy penned the article. It's the downright derogatory tone of self-appointed flabby, middle-class writers who turn their noses up at an Aveo or Taurus because of its 'mundane' steering or ride, while lavishing heaps of praise on a 300+ horsepower sedan. WTF? Why? Unless you live in Montana, where the hell can you drive these vehicles to their full potential anyway? Are men's penises getting smaller these days?

Let me tell you 2 stories from my hundreds of anecdotes: 1) Friend buys an Acura TL, leasing it for $650/month. He bitches to me that it takes premium gas and the insurance is killing him. I laugh at him and say I could have leased him an Intrigue GLS for $150 a month LESS. How many horspower does the TL have, I ask. He shrugs. Is it a 6 or an 8 I ask him ( I know the answer, but I want to see if he does!) Another shrug. Why did you lease it, then? Oh, because he read in a car magazine that it was a fun car to drive.

Story 2: My manager of 5 years, who worked for GM for over 30, died of cancer (this was back in '04). His widow dropped off their leased Alero and was off to a BMW store to pick up a new 3-series. The lady is nearly 65. Would she not have been better suited by a LaCrosse? Ah, but I see her 30-something year old son, sitting in his 5-series waiting to escort her. I choke back remarks about his gold-plated education being paid for by GM, while I remove the license plates from her Alero. I know this lady well: she wouldn't know a key fob from her broach if someone didnt't show it to her: an ideal BMW/Honda buyer if I ever saw one.

So, yes, enthusiasts have killed the auto industry. Maybe not all by themselves, but they surely have led the way. When they bitch and moan about 'soft plastics' and 'overhangs' to justify their existence (and big paychecks), it gets silly and plain boring to read their rants.

Except, ever since the invention of the automobile, when they made 3hp cars, they were working on making 4hp cars. You think it's just a recent trend that people like power in their cars? I'm sure you think it would be a great idea to put a governor on every car so they can't go above 75mph right?

And this is why Detroit will die: so-called fanboys who shoot a model down BEFORE IT'S EVEN LAUNCHED. And your opinion is based on what facts, exactly? Have you test driven the last Ford Fiesta offered on these shores (how many years ago was that, exactly?), and compared it to the latest Aveo? Hell, have YOU even been to Europe and driven the new Fiesta? The Spark is more than a year away from launch and yet the naysayers line up to throw fuel on the fire to watch it burn.

Just like the Volt.

The biggest reason I stopped reading C&G, after 5 years on this site was the mewling of people who sounded more like spoiled babies (My brand has been killed/why don't they bring back hard tops/minivans are for sissies/why doesn't GM have a 5spd/6spd/20spd transmission yet/the Cobalt is a POS because [insert favorite pev peeve here]) - and this comes from people who, what, see one on a dealer lot? Oh, I know - they test drove one for 20 minutes!!! Yay, I'm an expert.....

I need a drink.....

So you never shot down Scion before it was launched right? You must be an expert because you sold Chevys. Every Chevy to you is great, and every non-American vehicle is a POS. Just because everyone doesn't agree with you that doesn't make everyone wrong. I'm sure the Aveo is a much better car than the Fiesta(sarcasm). The Aveo is probably dead last in it's segment now, and you think it is going to be better than the Fiesta?

[pow]

And this is why Detroit will die: so-called fanboys who shoot a model down BEFORE IT'S EVEN LAUNCHED. And your opinion is based on what facts, exactly? Have you test driven the last Ford Fiesta offered on these shores (how many years ago was that, exactly?), and compared it to the latest Aveo? Hell, have YOU even been to Europe and driven the new Fiesta? The Spark is more than a year away from launch and yet the naysayers line up to throw fuel on the fire to watch it burn.

Just like the Volt.

The biggest reason I stopped reading C&G, after 5 years on this site was the mewling of people who sounded more like spoiled babies (My brand has been killed/why don't they bring back hard tops/minivans are for sissies/why doesn't GM have a 5spd/6spd/20spd transmission yet/the Cobalt is a POS because [insert favorite pev peeve here]) - and this comes from people who, what, see one on a dealer lot? Oh, I know - they test drove one for 20 minutes!!! Yay, I'm an expert.....

I need a drink.....

Judging by their latest products, I'm glad GM no longer shares the same mindset as you - that it's perfectly okay to peddle inferior products with outdated technology because the average American (or Canadian) consumer is too stupid to tell the difference and can be appeased with big rebates and interest-free financing.

Re: the Fiesta and "the latest Aveo", I'll give you one fact...

Fiesta: 5-star Euro NCAP rating

Aveo: 1.5-star Euro NCAP rating

I can already imagine the excuses - most people don't crash, and my dad's cousin's brother had an accident in an Aveo and he was fine! - which may all well be true, but these days (perhaps because of the "tyranny of the enthusiast"), people want the best.

Edited November 28, 2009 by pow

[A Horse With No Name]

Fiesta will be a great little car when it gets over here.

Aveo crash test is scary, as my mother owns one.

[A Horse With No Name]

It's the SMK like "enthusiasts" that kill the industry.

It's the SMK like guys that make me laugh.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

And this is why Detroit will die: so-called fanboys who shoot a model down BEFORE IT'S EVEN LAUNCHED. And your opinion is based on what facts, exactly? Have you test driven the last Ford Fiesta offered on these shores (how many years ago was that, exactly?), and compared it to the latest Aveo? Hell, have YOU even been to Europe and driven the new Fiesta? The Spark is more than a year away from launch and yet the naysayers line up to throw fuel on the fire to watch it burn.

Just like the Volt.

Actually I think the Volt is going to do really really well for GM.

And as for thinking that all of us here just hate Detroit...we don't. Actually I see signs of it coming back. I'm down in North Carolina visiting my folks, who have bought asian cars since the late 80's. My mother couldn't wait to run me over to the local Ford dealer to see the new Taurus, which is a great looking car. Actually, the Mustang may be Ford's least attractive product when they new Focus gets here....who would have ever thought?

...and the Malibu grows on me every time I look at it.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

And as for thinking that all of us here just hate Detroit...we don't. Actually I see signs of it coming back.

Same here.

Whether or not my kind of car, recent intros by both GM and Ford have been most impressive.

And they need to be.