There's no need for a Buick minivan w/the Enclave

[Northstar]

When I was drooling over the Enclave pics, I started to wonder what the other Lambdas would look like, and then I remembered that there is a Buick minivan off Lambda planned. With the Enclave though, there'd be no reason to make it. Seriously, how many people are going to buy a minivan over the Enclave just because of sliding doors?

Here are some reasons why there is no need for a Buick minivan:

1) A large portion of possible sales of the minivan would just go to the Enclave instead.

2) If they're going to do a Buick minivan, I think we agree it should be well differeniated from its lesser siblings, and this means increased development dollars.

3) If you're on a tight budget, as GM is right now, then it would make more sense to give Buick a "mini-Enclave" off of sub-Theta for those who don't want something as big as many full-size SUVs.

There is also no reason for a GMC minivan if the Acadia is as good as the Enclave, and there is no reason for a Saturn minivan if the Outlook as equally as good too. The Saturn was already cancelled, but the GMC and Buick are still on I believe. Chevy has a minivan coming, and there's no reason why it can't cover all bases of the minivan market.

[MyerShift]

I don't think Buick should have a minivan, period.

I love the Enclave's interior.

Exterior? Ehh, It seems a bit fishy, and I dislike the two arcs at the front and rear of the vehicle. I would prefer one, continuous character line across the body that doesn't droop, but rather angles up to the rear.

Edited January 10, 2006 by MyerShift

[Paolino]

I agree with you Northstar... a minivan for Buick wouldn't exactly be ideal with the Enclave coming out. I don't see it doing well with both. Unless they're somehow DRASTICALLY different.

[cavalier36]

id say just build a Chevrolet minivan only.. they are the only division that needs one.

[VenSeattle]

Your wish is granted, no more Terraza. :AH-HA_wink:

Is GMC still expected to get the 2nd Lambda minivan instead of Saturn?

[CARBIZ]

GM has to get this type of thing sorted out and FAST. Vehicles like the Torrent, Pursuit and Terraza are just embarassing. Toyota and Honda must be laughing at GM...all the way to the bank!

The Enclave is a great looking vehicle and is perfect for what Buick should be. More importantly, (so far) it looks like nothing else GM builds. Any idiot can see that it is better to have one Enclave than 4 crappy minivans off the same ancient platform.

[97regalGS]

GM has to get this type of thing sorted out and FAST.  Vehicles like the Torrent, Pursuit and Terraza are just embarassing.  Toyota and Honda must be laughing at GM...all the way to the bank!

  The Enclave is a great looking vehicle and is perfect for what Buick should be.  More importantly, (so far) it looks like nothing else GM builds.  Any idiot can see that it is better to have one Enclave than 4 crappy minivans off the same ancient platform.

GM can't wave AH-HA's magic wand and have 76 brand new vehicles (any idiot knows that). As a result, corners have to be cut and less than ideal decisions need to be made. Pontiac does well in Canada, hence a Pursuit. Pontiac dealers need a mini-SUV hence the Torrent. Ideal? No. Purposeful? Yes.

As a minivan owner (Mazda) and friends with lots of GM minivan owners, I can tell you that very few of them would option for the Enclave for 2 reasons - price and functionalaity. They would not, pay the premium that the Enclave will come with. As well, the fancy full length centre floor thingy (brain cramp) looks fantastic, but unless it folds flat into the floor with centre and 3rd row seating to give you a huge load area for those trips to Home Depot then it is not as practical as a minivan.

GM sold over 135,000 of the 4 minivans. You think that they can sell 135,000 Enclaves? They only sold 90,000+ Rainiers, Rendezvous and Terrazas combined.

So assume that Chevy gets a minivan off lambda. It's mandatory. I'd argue that the P-B-G dealers are going to want a van too so as not to lose sales to the chevy guys. Does GM need 2 minivans? An interesting question, but the power of the dealers has an influence. Which brand gets it? I don't know. Maybe the Acadia has more minivan functionality than the Enclave, at a lower price.

The P-B-G think adds a level of complexity to the product mix to avoid product overlap. Chevy can have one of every flavour. Buick can't, GMC can't, Pontiac can't. But the 3 of them combined will. or should.

[CSpec]

The Enclave is already the size of a minivan - I agree that there's no real need to make Lutz's spaceships.

[97regalGS]

The Enclave is already the size of a minivan - I agree that there's no real need to make Lutz's spaceships.

really? and what do you suppose the minivan buying public is going to buy?

it's not an Enclave.

[CARBIZ]

97, maybe my point wasn't clear: of course, Buick won't sell 135,000 Enclaves and they don't need to. Chevy should have a minivan and so should GMC, but it makes no sense to have 4 off the same platform that all look the same and that all overlap in price.

Regardless of what the whiny dealers want, the consumer is confused and the competiton is laughing. Gone are the days when a person will drive over to the Pontiac dealer after finding out they can't get a Vibe at the Chevy dealer - now they just drive over to Toyota and get something else.

This silly rebadging of the same vehicle over and over again is hurting sales, not helping. It also pits dealer against dealer. When a Pontiac guy tells the customer the Montana is better because of more sound insulation, better ride, etc. (which is total BS), then it just muddies the situation.

The Enclave is a serious step in finally differentiating Buick from Pontiac and from Chevrolet - the way it should be. I understand development money has been tight and that it takes time: my point is that I am glad to see it is finally happening and I HOPE it isn't too late.

There are 41 GM dealers in the GTA and 12 Toyota, yet they both have 16% market share each. Blood is in the water and, of course, the dealers are going to whine - they should be! You have dealers who used to sell 50 cars on a Saturday (not so long ago) now lucky to sell 50 in a month!

I am encouraged to see GM getting its act together, but just today spent some time with the new Civic and I am depressed.

[Sixty8panther]

id say just build a Chevrolet minivan only..  they are the only division that needs one.

Agreed.

The Enclave is the best concept of 2006 wiht the obvious exception of the Camaro.

DAmn GM really cleaned house. Ford's Acid Reflux was gross and Chysler had a bunch of gross stuff... the koreans had tacky wannabe cars and the japanese had the usual mix of all of the above.

But between the Enclave and Camaro GM really kicked ass IMHO.

[carlover23]

97, maybe my point wasn't clear:  of course, Buick won't sell 135,000 Enclaves and they don't need to.  Chevy should have a minivan and so should GMC, but it makes no sense to have 4 off the same platform that all look the same and that all overlap in price.

  Regardless of what the whiny dealers want, the consumer is confused and the competiton is laughing.  Gone are the days when a person will drive over to the Pontiac dealer after finding out they can't get a Vibe at the Chevy dealer - now they just drive over to Toyota and get something else.

  This silly rebadging of the same vehicle over and over again is hurting sales, not helping. It also pits dealer against dealer.  When a Pontiac guy tells the customer the Montana is better because of more sound insulation, better ride, etc.  (which is total BS), then it just muddies the situation.

  The Enclave is a serious step in finally differentiating Buick from Pontiac and from Chevrolet - the way it should be.  I understand development money has been tight and that it takes time:  my point is that I am glad to see it is finally happening and I HOPE it isn't too late.

  There are 41 GM dealers in the GTA and 12 Toyota, yet they both have 16% market share each.  Blood is in the water and, of course, the dealers are going to whine - they should be!  You have dealers who used to sell 50 cars on a Saturday (not so long ago) now lucky to sell 50 in a month!

  I am encouraged to see GM getting its act together, but just today spent some time with the new Civic and I am depressed.

I agree with this statement, I think that strategy should be Two minivans and three Crossovers, There should be a Lower priced Crossover, Chevy/GMC, a midlevel, Saturn, and then an upscale model; Buick. There should only be two Minivans, a budget model like Chevy and an upscale one, maybe Buick or Saturn.

The Minivan market is dwindling as people are purchasing more and more crossovers as they become availible. It does not make finanical scense IMO to release 4 minivans and 3 crossovers. Plus Crossover can be sold at a premium VS there minvan counterparts, because they do not have that Soccer mommy stigma and are the hot thing because they aren't as thursty as a BOF SUV.

[97regalGS]

97, maybe my point wasn't clear:  of course, Buick won't sell 135,000 Enclaves and they don't need to.  Chevy should have a minivan and so should GMC, but it makes no sense to have 4 off the same platform that all look the same and that all overlap in price.

  Regardless of what the whiny dealers want, the consumer is confused and the competiton is laughing.  Gone are the days when a person will drive over to the Pontiac dealer after finding out they can't get a Vibe at the Chevy dealer - now they just drive over to Toyota and get something else.

  This silly rebadging of the same vehicle over and over again is hurting sales, not helping. It also pits dealer against dealer.  When a Pontiac guy tells the customer the Montana is better because of more sound insulation, better ride, etc.  (which is total BS), then it just muddies the situation.

  The Enclave is a serious step in finally differentiating Buick from Pontiac and from Chevrolet - the way it should be.  I understand development money has been tight and that it takes time:  my point is that I am glad to see it is finally happening and I HOPE it isn't too late.

  There are 41 GM dealers in the GTA and 12 Toyota, yet they both have 16% market share each.  Blood is in the water and, of course, the dealers are going to whine - they should be!  You have dealers who used to sell 50 cars on a Saturday (not so long ago) now lucky to sell 50 in a month!

  I am encouraged to see GM getting its act together, but just today spent some time with the new Civic and I am depressed.

i think we're on the same page.

and you're bang on, GM's dealer network is too large to support their dwindling sales volumes. fewer dealers are required, at least in GTA - can't speak to rest of the country, or USA.

[Newbiewar]

the lambda is suppposed to replace the minivan...

[titan]

There is no need for a Buick minivan.

[SoCalCTS]

I hate to disagree with some very compelling arguements but I think Buick does need the minivan. If GMC/Buick/Pontiac are to be operated essentially as the same brand then I can't see a GMC professional grade minivan with mass appeal to soccer moms or a performance oriented Pontiac minivan.

Buick is the only place that a minivan would fit in. It would have to be a serious competitor with fold flat seats and should be trimmed like a Chrysler Town & Country minivan.

Edited January 11, 2006 by SoCalCTS

[97regalGS]

um, haven't had time to actually read all the press on the Enclave.

do ANY of the 2nd and 3rd row seats fold flat or are they removeable?

[Cananopie]

I hate to disagree with some very compelling arguements but I think Buick does need the minivan. If GMC/Buick/Pontiac are to be operated essentially as the same brand then I can't see a GMC professional grade minivan with mass appeal to soccer moms or a performance oriented Pontiac minivan.

Buick is the only place that a minivan would fit in. It would have to be a serious competitor with fold flat seats and should be trimmed like a Chrysler Town & Country minivan.

Saturn can take the minivan. It's moving upmarket between Pontiac and Buick anyway.

[avant1963]

Dont forget the Enclave is a "CONCEPT". The full length console will probably not make it to production, or if it does it will be an option. You can't sell a huge CUV without folding seats. Where's the utility unless you opt for it.

[97regalGS]

Dont forget the Enclave is a "CONCEPT".  The full length console will probably not make it to production, or if it does it will be an option.  You can't sell a huge CUV without folding seats.  Where's the utility unless you opt for it.

so that's my question, and maybe we'll see more when the Acadia/Outlook are revealed. What options are avail. for the seats to fold flat and/or be removed?

[dufus22]

i have a question why would gmc get the minivan, and not pontaic? Is GM finally getting serious about making pontac the american BMW? I do like the Buick Enclave concept. I also must say, at the threat of getting slammed, that I also like the new Lincoln concept.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Is GMC still expected to get the 2nd Lambda minivan instead of Saturn?

I heard that rumor too, but that's a bad idea on so many levels-its bad enough GMC TRUCK division is getting the Acadia, which essentially is a full-size, front-drive car to me. I think Buick should get a minivan, sharing no exterior or interior (other than the obvious, such as stereos, etc.) styling or design elements with Chevrolet whatsoever (or Pontiac should they have a sporty short-wheelbase-only Montana-otherwise don't bother). I think Saturn should retag the Relay moniker onto an exported Opel/Vauxhall Zafira or Epsilon II-based R-Class-type vehicle, otherwise, dump it. And unless its SWB and sporty-performance-oriented only , ditch the Pontiac Montana. And what purpose does Torrent serve? All it is is a rebadged, poorly-regrilled Chevrolet Equinox that costs more and has a nicer steering wheel and an additional color substitution. That's it. In its current form, Torrent has no real purpose (unless you gave it a fastback roofline and standard sport suspension) and should be killed-from what I'm seeing around here, the public seems to agree.

[daves87rs]

I would have to agree with Northie on this one.

Minivans are dead. It was a dead market when Kia moved into it....

Time for GM to move on to more important things...

There are no need fot GM minivans period.

Let those other companies fight for the dying market....

All hail the crossover.

[Cadillacfan]

Minivans were proclaimed dead when SUVs started getting popular.. and yet they're still around and they're still pulling in big numbers. Now SUVs are no longer the vehicle of choice, people are migrating back to the vans.

GM needs to stay with the minivan segment because it's still a somewhat profitable segment and it's still slowly growing.

I also agree with people who say that Chevy should be the only brand with a minivan. GM's major problem with not being able to keep up has a lot to do with too many models. Having 4 models of vans spreads the amount of money out so thin that there is not enough money for each one to make them competitive.

The reason 4 minivans is that while GM usually makes more then one model to maximize production out of it's factories in most cases, each factory only produce one type of vehicle. That's the reason for all the rebadging.

The Cadillac factory in Lansing is the perfect example of what the company is capable of doing. They are produce three very different vehicles on the same line without having to rework any machinery.

Hopefully, the Lambda vehicles will all be produced together including a future chevy minivan and because of that, they won't need to produce 4 minivans.

[wiserocz]

Two points that make a Buick minivan more palatable.

If you look at the Rendezvous and Buick in general you will see a high level of females purchasing. The minivan market is driven by women not men. So the bottom line is that Buicks demo age is going down but also turning female. I think a Buick minivan makes more sense than a Pontiac minivan personally.

I might want to add though that when my wife wanted to get a minivan I really seriously looked at a Montana because it was less feminine. If the price would have been more competitive and had there been a 3800 or 3900 under the hood instead of a 3400 I would have leaned towards that minivan. We ended up getting a Caravan. If you can't beat them join them. There was just no denying that the Caravan was superior even though I long ago swore off Chrysler products.

You know what would have been interesting and I wonder if GM would chance it, is a 5.3 V8 in a minivan. Sport Vans, might make minivans cooler. Just an idea.

[cutlass442]

As a minivan owner, the biggest asset to me is the sliding rear doors. Creates a wider opening to get kids in and out, especially if the are power sliding doors which make loading and unloading kids even easer. Also, you don't have to worry about the rear occupants opening the door and hitting it into a car or garage wall.

My advice...

Change the rear doors to power sliding and have got yourself a winner. The exterior could look essentially the same with the exception of a relocated door handle anda slider track for the door (which could be incoporated with the rear window - See Dodge/Chrysler). This would, I believe, make the vehicle even more marketable.

Again, just my advice

[titan]

I hate to disagree with some very compelling arguements but I think Buick does need the minivan. If GMC/Buick/Pontiac are to be operated essentially as the same brand then I can't see a GMC professional grade minivan with mass appeal to soccer moms or a performance oriented Pontiac minivan.

Buick is the only place that a minivan would fit in. It would have to be a serious competitor with fold flat seats and should be trimmed like a Chrysler Town & Country minivan.

Just because BPG is operated that way, doesn't mean that it needs a minivan. A minivan doesn't fit any image in the BPG group. Saturn is perfect and primed for a premium, upscale minivan.

[gmhashope]

Their are only 2 Lambda based minivans still on. The GMC and Chevy versions.

Speaking of the Lambdas, the Outlook will be unveiled at New York for those of you who don't know.

[Dsuupr]

Don't forget that Saturn is supposed to be a full line dealership, meaning as Chevy gets a minivan, so shall Saturn.

[Northstar]

Don't forget that Saturn is supposed to be a full line dealership, meaning as Chevy gets a minivan, so shall Saturn.

That was the case, but not anymore. The Saturn van has been cut.

[ponchoman49]

I see no need for either Buick or Pontiac to make a minivan. Buick is the luxury division and Pontiac is supposed to be the sporty marque. So why have clone minivans? Leave the vans for Chevy and Saturn. Chevy can be the entry level to mid level with Saturn taking the mid to high level spot. Enough said!

[gmhashope]

That was the case, but not anymore. The Saturn van has been cut.

Correct, Saturn won't get a Lambda minivan which makes me wonder if Saturn might receive a version of Opel's minivan instead.

[sciguy_0504]

The full-length console should definately be an option or part of a luxury package. It's hot and fits Buick's image.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Definately no minivan for Buick please. I know the PBG dealers might want one but I don't think it fits where any of these divisions want to be in the future. Canada is a different story because the Montana has always managed to outsell the Venture so I could see them doing another badge job to keep dealers happy. I say make one world class van for Chevy and let them try to take share from Chrysler/Toy/Honda.