Bob Lutz Notes + Production Camaro Decision Timefr

[Guest Josh]

With the introduction of the Camaro concept courtesy of Chevrolet and General Motors Mr. Lutz stuck around to answer some questions from media folk and automotive enthusiasts alike. Below are notes taken by yours truly.

- Mr. Lutz noted that the Camaro would need to sell about 165,000 vehicles for it to be profitable and justifiable for the company.

- The Camaro concept rides on a platform that is currently being used and is GM’s new global rear-wheel drive architecture.

- Mr. Lutz did not state if the Camaro could be made outside of Canada, or if the vehicle would have to be made within the Canadian borders which could still mean a hold-up with the CAW regarding the Camaro nameplate.

- Bankruptcy talks were dismissed as quickly as they were brought up as I knew they would be.

- One final note and one that fans of the Camaro will want to pay attention to: GM could make a decision on production in just a FEW SHORT MONTHS. Mr. Lutz cited the Solstice as an example explaining that from the moment the Solstice was a concept to just three months after a decision was made on production.

That being said, for every individual that is out there reading this, BE SURE TO LET GM KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS! You can do so here as they will certainly be read by those that need to read them. Once again, a decision on production could be made in just a few short months, so now is the time to let your voices be heard.

[NOS2006]

What is Lutz's email?

[Guest Josh]

We can't publish that and do not encourage an onslaught of emails to corporate executives.

[BigPontiac]

- Mr. Lutz noted that the Camaro would need to sell about 165,000 vehicles for it to be profitable and justifiable for the company.

Any ballpark pricing numbers mentioned which determined the volume target?

[Mikko O]

I would strongly suggest the GM blog website, as Bob Lutz and all the important brass read all the comments sent in. Direct link is www.fastlane.gmblogs.com

The current topic is about the unveiling of the concept Camaro. You can all make a difference by entering your comments on the Camaro. Let Bob know how you feel about making this concept a reality.

Edited January 9, 2006 by Mikko O

[daishi48]

After seeing the leaked concept photos, I wasn't so sure about the new camaro. Now seeing the real thing, I would definately buy one!

[BuddyP]

165k to be profitable? Seems like a lot. I assume that's a per year estimate. Doesn't seem like they'd need to sell that many to meet their mark. What's the Solstice estimate? It's gotta be under 100k isn't it?

My thoughts are... I can't wait for it to be built!

Edited January 9, 2006 by BuddyP

[Guest Josh]

I'm curious as to the "about" 165k estimate....because the market is not that darn big! The Solstice is only set for 20k units per year, the Mustang sold about 200k units this last year if memory serves me right.

I think 165k units is really stretching it.

[Munson05]

165k to be profitable? Seems like a lot. I assume that's a per year estimate. Doesn't seem like they'd need to sell that many to meet their mark. What's the Solstice estimate? It's gotta be under 100k isn't it?

My thoughts are... I can't wait for it to be built!

the number includes the base car too. If its afordable and comes to market like it looks I think they will do it. I really hope its soon, I will definatley buy one for me and maybe one for my girlfriend/future wife

[greg_nate]

With the introduction of the Camaro concept courtesy of Chevrolet and General Motors Mr. Lutz stuck around to answer some questions from media folk and automotive enthusiasts alike. Below are notes taken by yours truly.

- Mr. Lutz noted that the Camaro would need to sell about 165,000 vehicles for it to be profitable and justifiable for the company.

- The Camaro concept rides on a platform that is currently being used and is GM’s new global rear-wheel drive architecture.

- Mr. Lutz did not state if the Camaro could be made outside of Canada, or if the vehicle would have to be made within the Canadian borders which could still mean a hold-up with the CAW regarding the Camaro nameplate.

- Bankruptcy talks were dismissed as quickly as they were brought up as I knew they would be.

- One final note and one that fans of the Camaro will want to pay attention to: GM could make a decision on production in just a FEW SHORT MONTHS. Mr. Lutz cited the Solstice as an example explaining that from the moment the Solstice was a concept to just three months after a decision was made on production.

That being said, for every individual that is out there reading this, BE SURE TO LET GM KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS! You can do so here as they will certainly be read by those that need to read them. Once again, a decision on production could be made in just a few short months, so now is the time to let your voices be heard.

Weren't we supposed to see another GM/Chevy RWD unveil at NAIAS?

[turbo200]

I will post detailed thoughts about this concept in the coming days, and on Fastlane too. It's everything I could have asked for, and the most glaring example of how considerate the process was in making this car and how much freedom the designers have been given to make something truly astounding, and the emphasis on design period at GM.

I am curious about the comment about the global platform underpinning the Camaro and it "currently being used".

[BuddyP]

Maybe he's just referring to overall sales then? Say, over a 3 year period. In other words, they'd have to sell 165k to make out on it before retooling for a new design or any upgrades???

I am curious about the comment about the global platform underpinning the Camaro and it "currently being used".

Zeta as far as I know. A IRS version of it anyway.

Edited January 9, 2006 by BuddyP

[NOS2006]

We can't publish that and do not encourage an onslaught of emails to corporate executives.

That's okay. I found better..

All I want to know is its approximate weight..

[z28luvr01]

Just in case GM execs happen upon this thread:

Stop thinking. Stop studying. Build it.

[Newbiewar]

165k for how many years...?

because the most expensive cost is the research and development...

and 165k, would mean high volume low cost... meaning they are thinking already of us

the SSR is 42k and it sells what 10k a year if its lucky...

the GTO 33k and it sells what 16k a year...

so... at 165k a year... we ought to be... more like 18-27k...

[Ghost Dog]

As is. I think 100k is doable. 165k I don't know. I don't think a Pontiac clone helps. ( An STS sized Pontiac, with AWD would)

But then again Lutz said Kappa needed 125k. And, well it happend anyway.

[Newbiewar]

That's okay. I found better..

All I want to know is its approximate weight..

dont forget the Coefficent of drag...

[FireStorm]

i'm 100% sure that the 160k mentioned is how much it will have to sell to be make a profit over it's lifetime, not year to year

[I hope GMRULES again]

I don't think they can sell 165K a year but then again I was wrong about the HHR.

[me3head]

What is Lutz's email?

Probably [email protected]

Maybe his middle initial in there.

[Ghost Dog]

Lutz said something similar about Torana.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf...A256F2600076A6A

GM product supremo Bob Lutz is on record as saying a global market of 120,000 vehicles would need to be found to make Torana manufacture viable – a production volume Holden, which already produces 180,000 Commodore-based vehicles annually, is not in a position to meet.

Sounds like He was talking yearly there.

[Justin Bimmer]

Everybody I have shown the pics to have been really impressed with the style of the car. My dad brought up some good points about the Camaro. He said that people in the younger age brackets have been waiting for GM to come out with something like this. It's styled outstanding and if it is affordable, they shouln't have any problem selling that many units. He also mentioned that the Camaro was always competing against itself with teh firebird right down the street. Without the Firebird, 160,000 units should be easy to sell.

This car is definately something I would look at for my next purchase.

[ChevyNovs99]

Yahoo Camaro Concept Story

from the article:

"Lutz said GM could make the new Camaro profitably if it could sell between 150,000 and 160,000 of the cars each year."

[Variance]

As a point of reference, the Ford Mustang sold 160,975 units in 2005. So I do believe Lutz was talking 160,000 yearly.

[regfootball]

yeah but what did the camaro sell per year its last 3-4 years?

[usa1]

As long as GM makes the 165K yearly target a requirement, we will never see a Camaro return to the market place. Cars like this peak early and then rapidly drop. They need to design a business case around a persistent 60K vehicles a year target.

Mark

[jrockb4]

That does not bode well for the Camaro. The last 4 years of Camaro sales probably did not come close to that total. The 300 which is considered the sales hit of the year by some, only sold 144,068 for the year and it is a sedan. The Mustang with it's loyal following and numerous models only sold 160k last year. How in the world would or could GM hope to sell 160k+ of any coupe? I just don't think that niche is too big. Now if they could use that platform to replace the Monte Carlo and add a large RWD sedan (Chevy SS), then maybe. But I just don't see it from any one coupe. And if I am not mistaken, the Mustang is the number 1 selling coupe in the US. They would have to sell it in Canada and maybe 1 or 2 more countries.

[cavalier36]

they might be able to sell 165,000 a year. there would probably be three trim levels, three diffrent engines, and it would come as a coupe and a convertible..

it would be atleast sold in the united states, canada and mexico.. maybe they could export a few thousand to australia?? to get the volume up im sure they could sell a few thousand to alamo and enterprise.. if they would build the next generation GTO on the same platform and build it in the same plant then there might be a case there also.. seems if there was a second model a pontiac or a buick using the same chassis but a diffrent body that might make it more likely..

[Northstar]

What we're all forgetting with volume is the possibility of a high volume sedan off the same platform, or other vehicles. If GM only thinks it can find 140k buyers per year, what if they can find another 160k for a RWD sedan on the same platform, 80k more from a Pontiac sedan, 20k from a GTO, and 30-40k from a Buick using more expensive materials in the platform (aluminum instead of steel, etc)? I think if more vehicles can be put on the Camaro platform there would be no reason the whole platform can't do over 400k units as I illustrated.

[NOS2006]

What we're all forgetting with volume is the possibility of a high volume sedan off the same platform, or other vehicles. If GM only thinks it can find 140k buyers per year, what if they can find another 160k for a RWD sedan on the same platform, 80k more from a Pontiac sedan, 20k from a GTO, and 30-40k from a Buick using more expensive materials in the platform (aluminum instead of steel, etc)? I think if more vehicles can be put on the Camaro platform there would be no reason the whole platform can't do over 400k units as I illustrated.

Yep. They can't make the Camaro on it's platform solo. There'll be other cars, too. MANY of them by the looks of it.

It's getting built. Period!

[Ghost Dog]

What we're all forgetting with volume is the possibility of a high volume sedan off the same platform, or other vehicles. If GM only thinks it can find 140k buyers per year, what if they can find another 160k for a RWD sedan on the same platform, 80k more from a Pontiac sedan, 20k from a GTO, and 30-40k from a Buick using more expensive materials in the platform (aluminum instead of steel, etc)? I think if more vehicles can be put on the Camaro platform there would be no reason the whole platform can't do over 400k units as I illustrated.

I think with GM moving to a max of 2 shifts per plant. 250k in an LGR type setup might be Max.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[I hope GMRULES again]

yeah but what did the camaro sell per year its last 3-4 years?

The Camaro and the Firebird together didn't total 100k per year during their last few years. It probably last broke the 100K mark in the mid 90's. 165k per year has to include other cars built on the same platform.

[FireStorm]

the 4th gen f-body was also not a practical user friendly car, with a lot of aged engineering that had been used for 20 years.. .. this thing should, if they do it right, be a lot more consumer and user friendly, easier to get in and out of, bigger back seat, etc.. not to mention better ride and handling, and an design that many will find appealing.. i don't doubt that this thing will outsell both fbodies top 4th gen numbers, alone

[regfootball]

production stats

they would sell 100,000 the first year and then it would decline to about 50k a year after the fourth or fifth year.

95 was the last year over 100k....incidentally that was about the time of the rise of the SUV and sport sedan craze.

coupes have limited market appeal and RWD only also limits appeal in bad weather states.

that said, that's what makes the car what it is. all i am saying is they need to figure out how to build it at much lower volumes than 100k and still make money.

I still think any v8 camaro that hits the floor is 30 grand minimum. why torture yourself wating so long, just get a lightly used Corvette or GTo to tideyou over until this thing appears? i wouldn't wait for it, but when it does arrive then just go buy one.

the fact that it would have make money at low volume says even more about how this thing will not be below 30 grand. 30 grand is a nice downpayment on a lightly used C6.

what GM also needs to do is market a Pontiac coupe and sedan that is less mullet, on the same chassis, more BMW esque and sell that in addition to all their other cars.

Edited January 10, 2006 by regfootball

[FireStorm]

those production numbers are camaro only though, the market who bought the firebird could easily move over to buy this new camaro.. anyone have firebird production numbers? or total fbody production?

if the buzz is good enough, this thing can sell 160k.. it is entirely possible.. RWD? no problem, look how popular the chrysler LX cars are.. coupe? coupes are huge among the younger crowd.. what self respecting single guy would get a sedan over a coupe?.. with 30mpg highway, you really can't complain about it being a gas hog..

i can see this thing selling quite well, i believe the market is there, it just needs to rise above the competition not only in straight line performance, but in fit, finish, quality, comfort, etc.. it can be done.. this can be a better car, and thus a better seller than the 4th gen.. optimism..

[goblue1999]

With the introduction of the Camaro concept courtesy of Chevrolet and General Motors Mr. Lutz stuck around to answer some questions from media folk and automotive enthusiasts alike. Below are notes taken by yours truly.

- Mr. Lutz noted that the Camaro would need to sell about 165,000 vehicles for it to be profitable and justifiable for the company.

- The Camaro concept rides on a platform that is currently being used and is GM’s new global rear-wheel drive architecture.

- Mr. Lutz did not state if the Camaro could be made outside of Canada, or if the vehicle would have to be made within the Canadian borders which could still mean a hold-up with the CAW regarding the Camaro nameplate.

- Bankruptcy talks were dismissed as quickly as they were brought up as I knew they would be.

- One final note and one that fans of the Camaro will want to pay attention to: GM could make a decision on production in just a FEW SHORT MONTHS. Mr. Lutz cited the Solstice as an example explaining that from the moment the Solstice was a concept to just three months after a decision was made on production.

That being said, for every individual that is out there reading this, BE SURE TO LET GM KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS! You can do so here as they will certainly be read by those that need to read them. Once again, a decision on production could be made in just a few short months, so now is the time to let your voices be heard.

That volume number seems way off, I find it hard to believe that nearly an entire assembly plant's production would be needed to make it viable. Are you sure on those numbers??

[FireStorm]

That volume number seems way off, I find it hard to believe that nearly an entire assembly plant's production would be needed to make it viable.  Are you sure on those numbers??

that's what Bob Lutz said..

[jrockb4]

if the buzz is good enough, this thing can sell 160k.. it is entirely possible.. RWD? no problem, look how popular the chrysler LX cars are.. coupe? coupes are huge among the younger crowd.. what self respecting single guy would get a sedan over a coupe?.. with 30mpg highway, you really can't complain about it being a gas hog..

Both DC cars together sold about 160k and the sedan outsells the coupe about 2 to 1, I think. I agree with what other people have said here that as long as that 160k includes other cars, then it is a no brainer. If they expect 160k from the various individual cars, they will be hard pressed. The $30k+ coupe market is dormant right now. Think of all the great cars that have passed on (Eldo, Mark VII, Fbod, etc). The only real one left is the Stang and with the market all to itself it only bearely breaks 160k/yr. But as much as we fantasize, the 300 hp, V8, coupe market is in a coma.

Now with sedans, we are easily talking 250k units per year.

[FireStorm]

Both DC cars together sold about 160k and the sedan outsells the coupe about 2 to 1, I think.  I agree with what other people have said here that as long as that 160k includes other cars, then it is a no brainer.  If they expect 160k from the various individual cars, they will be hard pressed.  The $30k+ coupe market is dormant right now.  Think of all the great cars that have passed on (Eldo, Mark VII, Fbod, etc).  The only real one left is the Stang and with the market all to itself it only bearely breaks 160k/yr.  But as much as we fantasize, the 300 hp, V8, coupe market is in a coma. 

Now with sedans, we are easily talking 250k units per year.

sure the 30k+ coupel market is dormant.. but this camaro wont cost that much, at least not the base model.. the V6 or whatever the base model is, is probably gonna be low 20s.. that is what's gonna generate the big sales.. the v8 model, if priced similar to the GTO will outsell the GTO hugely.. based on styling alone.. whos to say with these two big RWD 2+2 coupe concepts coming out, it won't wake up the market? optimism

[Sixty8panther]

Just in case GM execs happen upon this thread:

Stop thinking. Stop studying. Build it.

Hell yeah!!! I showed it to Marcia (The G/F) and after about 25 seconds of viewing the phots she said:

-Interior is among the best she's ever seen

-Exterior is very muscular and sexy... "just like our 68"

-"If you sell all the cars in the driveway* minus the Datsun you can buy one!"

* 68 Camaro, 97 STS, Volvo demolition derby car & POS '94 Corsica that was given to me for free

The fact that Marcia would consider a two door car to be acceptable speaks volumes. I mean with the baby and all the only car she was okay with me buying that I actally wanted was a Charger since it's a 4dr.

We just might dump the STS and still buy a Charger 3.5 for the time being and trade up to the Camaro as soon as it comes out.

[FireStorm]

i did a little research.. it wasnt easy because there are a lot of conflicting numbers.. but the conflicts arent large, i usually chose the larger of the two if a certain year had conflicting numbers.. i just wanted to see the camaro and firebird sales, vs mustang sales.. and total fbody sales vs mustang sales..

interestingly enough, the average yearly sales for the fbody is higher than for the mustang..

http://home.comcast.net/~builder228/stuff/...rproduction.htm

Edited January 10, 2006 by FireStorm

[regfootball]

i did a little research.. it wasnt easy because there are a lot of conflicting numbers.. but the conflicts arent large, i usually chose the larger of the two if a certain year had conflicting numbers.. i just wanted to see the camaro and firebird sales, vs mustang sales.. and total fbody sales vs mustang sales..

interestingly enough, the average yearly sales for the fbody is higher than for the mustang..

http://home.comcast.net/~builder228/stuff/...rproduction.htm

2 of last 13 years did camaro and FB combined top that 160k annual mark. only 2 of 13. and that's during many of the years mustang was unappealing.

I honestly think Lutz meant 160,000 totalover like 3-4 years

Edited January 10, 2006 by regfootball

[FireStorm]

2 of last 13 years did camaro and FB combined top that 160k annual mark.  only 2 of 13.  and that's during many of the years mustang was unappealing. 

I honestly think Lutz meant 160,000 totalover like 3-4 years

well, that could be because the 4th gens were not practical cars.. not appealing to the masses, only to the enthusiest.. that was part of the problem..

the mustang was more appealing to a lot of people, a smaller car, more comfortable seating position, easier to get in and out of, an actual trunk....

Edited January 10, 2006 by FireStorm

[knightfan26917]

How in the world would or could GM hope to sell 160k+ of any coupe?  I just don't think that niche is too big.  Now if they could use that platform to replace the Monte Carlo.....

Hmmm....well, if Chevrolet intends to ax what they claim is the current "monte carlo" ... and have the new Camaro be the sole RWD, V8 option available ... I know this Monte Carlo guy won't be getting a new Camaro. I probably would get a GTO or Charger before I'd get a Camaro....

*shrugs*

But, I'm sure I'm the only one on that.... Don't get me wrong ... I like the new Camaro ... I just doubt I'd buy one....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html

"Why can't that be me?" ... 3 Doors Down ... 'If I Could Be Like That'

[marcus769]

If there was more of a variety in trim levels, 3 for example, there would be NO reason this car will not reach the sales goal of 160k.

Make a V-6 RS model perhaps, w/ 5-speed or auto

V-8 Z28 430 hp 6-speed, Well built auto trans (5 speed auto!)

V-8 SS 500 hp 6 speed, BEEFY trans/clutch, BEEFY REAR integrate appearance items such as hood scoop, indentifiable spoiler, wheels.

There needs to be significant differances between the trim levels or forget it! They've pretty much turned the "SS" nameplate into an appearance package on sedans, slow SS sport trucks, slow montecarlos (V6s), malibu SS. Come on GM!

This would be awesome!

[yagrmiestr]

If you watch the podcast (or the video) on Lutz's blogsite, the number that came out of his mouth is 100k to 150k per year. It's about 2/3 through the interview. 100k sounds like a more realistic goal. hmm, since it's not approved yet, I guess the business case may still be in a bit of flux?

Edited January 10, 2006 by yagrmiestr

[FireStorm]

If you watch the podcast (or the video) on Lutz's blogsite, the number that came out of his mouth is 100k to 150k per year.  It's about 2/3 through the interview. 100k sounds like a more realistic goal. hmm, since it's not approved yet, I guess the business case may still be in a bit of flux?

that's a different interview.. the one most of we are talking about is the one done by whats her name, right after the reveal, during the original GMTV feed

[91z4me]

=Northstar

What we're all forgetting with volume is the possibility of a high volume sedan off the same platform, or other vehicles. If GM only thinks it can find 140k buyers per year, what if they can find another 160k for a RWD sedan on the same platform, 80k more from a Pontiac sedan, 20k from a GTO, and 30-40k from a Buick using more expensive materials in the platform (aluminum instead of steel, etc)? I think if more vehicles can be put on the Camaro platform there would be no reason the whole platform can't do over 400k units as I illustrated.

Yep. They can't make the Camaro on it's platform solo. There'll be other cars, too. MANY of them by the looks of it.

It's getting built. Period!

Lets remember this guys. They are repeating what we have heard for quite a while. There is at least 1 volume sedan on this same platform, a Chevy. There may also exist a Buick and Pontiac sedan. Also there could EASILY be different wheelbases, STS vs CTS ring a bell. A LWB GTO coupe is not out of the question. Lets remember GM doesn't have the money rolling around to just make expensive concepts with no intention of producing them! There is a reason for this concept and that reason is to see how the public reacts to a cartoon version of the exterior, like the Torana did for the VE cars. Public is reacting well and that bodes VERY well for the business case!

[Raybob9289]

Yep. They can't make the Camaro on it's platform solo. There'll be other cars, too. MANY of them by the looks of it.

It's getting built. Period!

Lets remember this guys. They are repeating what we have heard for quite a while. There is at least 1 volume sedan on this same platform, a Chevy. There may also exist a Buick and Pontiac sedan. Also there could EASILY be different wheelbases, STS vs CTS ring a bell. A LWB GTO coupe is not out of the question. Lets remember GM doesn't have the money rolling around to just make expensive concepts with no intention of producing them! There is a reason for this concept and that reason is to see how the public reacts to a cartoon version of the exterior, like the Torana did for the VE cars. Public is reacting well and that bodes VERY well for the business case!

To Lutz, GM I will buy one maybe two. Lets roll Dudes I am waiting.

Untill then I will keep beating my 96. B)

[ponchoman49]

I highly doubt they would ever sell 165K per year. Coupes just don't sell anymore for some unkown reason. Now if it was a new Toyota Crossover vehicle, then sure. Hopefully 165K reflects a certain time period so that GM does make this car. Does anybody have any specs on the car or know a target price? What are the other lower end engines going to be besides the top 6.0 liter LS2? Curbweight etc. One thing for sure that will kill this car before it even hits the streets is a high price tag, too long of a delay of introduction and low production. Remember the T-Bird? If I were GM, I would very closely follow the Mustang formula for this car to succeed.