CTS-V Challenge Results from Monticello

[Drew Dowdell]

CTS-V Challenge about to start!

[Justin Bimmer]

What a baller!

[Drew Dowdell]

@Cadillac: The challenge is on! Jack baruth, archan b, and Michael c are on track

[Drew Dowdell]

Second lap for Chris F. in the CTS-V 03:14:292

[Drew Dowdell]

Best lap times in the first heat: Michael C. driving a BMW M3 with a best lap of 2:50:424. Jack Baruth in CTS-V put up best lap of 2:51:153 and Archan B. in Jaguar XF-R ran a 3:15.670.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Sounds like the M3 is in the lead, and the Cadillac is in close 2nd. If all you read is the comments on this website, no other sedan could ever stand a chance against the Cadillac. Horsepower isn't everything.

[Drew Dowdell]

First Lap for Aron L. CTS-V 02:48:902.

[Drew Dowdell]

First lap for Bob Lutz in the CTS-V is a hot 02:58:072. Beats Wes Siler's best by 10 seconds.

[Drew Dowdell]

Third lap for Bob Lutz is 02:56:732

[Drew Dowdell]

Top lap time for the thrid round goes to Aaron L in the CTS-V at 02:48:902

[Drew Dowdell]

CTS-V wins. And 6 of top 7 are CTS-Vs.

[siegen]

Anyone have a web link for this thing?

[Drew Dowdell]

Damn. I'm getting into a fight with the guy from KickingTires. He's saying that Cadillac lost because Lutz didn't post a faster time than the M3 driver.

[BigPontiac]

Anyone have a web link for this thing?

http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/

[BigPontiac]

Damn. I'm getting into a fight with the guy from KickingTires. He's saying that Cadillac lost because Lutz didn't post a faster time than the M3 driver.

That would seem to depend upon the driver's license/experience of the M3 driver. John Heinricy was supposed to be there to combat the drivers with a racing license of some sort I thought. In the pre-race video, the M3 driver does seem to have some experience, though not sure which category he falls into.

[BigPontiac]

Final Times per Autoblog:

(edit: re-sequenced order)

CTS-V (John Heinricy): 2:46:560

CTS-V (Aaron Link): 2:48:902

CTS-V (Brian Redman): 2:49:183

BMW M3 (Michael Cooper): 2.50:424

CTS-V (Jack Baruth): 2:51:153

CTS-V (Lawrence Ulrich): 2:53:026

CTS-V (Bob Lutz): 2:56:321

Evo (Wes Siler): 3:08.126

BMW M5 (Michael Mainwald): 3:08:989

CTS-V (Chris Fairman.): 3:14:292

Audi RS4 (Tom Loder): 3:15:702

Jaguar XF (Archan Basu): 3:16.670

Edited October 29, 2009 by BigPontiac

[Drew Dowdell]

That would seem to depend upon the driver's license/experience of the M3 driver. John Heinricy was supposed to be there to combat the drivers with a racing license of some sort I thought. In the pre-race video, the M3 driver does seem to have some experience, though not sure which category he falls into.

Name: Michael C.

Hometown: Long Island, NY

Our second Michael has trained at Skip Barber. At just 21 years old, Michael is the younger driver in the Challenge. He owns a BMW M3.

[BigPontiac]

Insideline has pretty good coverage of this event too: Link

[BigPontiac]

Name: Michael C.

Hometown: Long Island, NY

Our second Michael has trained at Skip Barber. At just 21 years old, Michael is the younger driver in the Challenge. He owns a BMW M3.

All I could find was this:

And while this whole event/stunt began with a personal challenge from Bob Lutz in a conference call with media, GM will have professional racer and former GM engineer John Heinricy on-hand. According to Twork, "Heinricy will be used at the discretion of Mr. Lutz." In other words, GM will have its own ringer should any other competitor bring one.

Source: InsideLine

[smk4565]

The problem with this is it is testing who is the best driver. Because Heinricy is obviously much better than Lutz. What they need is to put every car in the hands of The Stig and then see which one has the best time.

[Robert Hall]

Interesting, but where was the Lexus IS-F? The Merc AMGs (C63 or E63s)?

[siegen]

I don't understand why all these CTS-V times are being shown. Wasn't it supposed to be Bob Lutz in a CTS-V against any challenger in a stock sedan?

If so, this appears to be the real final result:

Michael Cooper - BMW M3 - 2:50:424

Bob Lutz - CTS-V - 2:56:321

Michael Mainwald - BMW M5 - 3:05:398

Wes Siler- Mitsubishi Evo - 3:08:126

Archan Basu - Jaguar XF - 3:15:670

Tom Loder - Audi RS4 - 3:15:702

And as already stated, this comparison is heavily driver-skewed, as every driver was at a different level. It appears that none of the challengers were professional drivers (although at least one having some sort of driver training), so the CTS-V pro-driver times are pointless.

All in good competition. And Bob did manage to beat the M5.

Edit: and two journalists beat Bob in his own car. Perhaps Bob needs some more practice before he goes challenging the world. ;-]

Edited October 29, 2009 by siegen

[The O.C.]

Interesting, but where was the Lexus IS-F? The Merc AMGs (C63 or E63s)?

From my understanding, no manufacturer save Mitsubishi was willing to provide their own car (after Jaguar backed out) so GM had to rely on I guess individuals that brought their own cars....??

Prolly not easy for GM to find this caliber of vehicle at a rental facility or something similar.....

All in all, I think this was an interesting exercise and certainly drew some attention to GM and the CTS-V......and being it's already being posted on sites such as YouTube, will probably continue to draw attention for many weeks to come....

[The O.C.]

This also brings to mind a memory of something I pulled together one time at the Reno Air Races in Reno, Nevada.

At the time, I was working for Buick in the San Francisco Zone (which Reno was a part of) and as a result, we were responsible for Buick's sponsorship of the Reno Air Races at the time.

We had exhibits there, focusing on the new Buick Regal and the SC 3800 engine, and I had the idea to stage a drag race competition in between the air races to demonstrate the power and torque of the new (at that time) Regal GS with the SC 3800.

The plan was to stage this drag race on the main runway that happened to run parallel to the main grandstands for the air races, which was full of spectators. We also had the main announcer describing the event in detail to the spectators as we pulled it off. At the time, my goal was to dust off a Mustang GT (of that era) with a "Buick." That was the attraction.....blown V6 Buick beats a V8-powered pony car.

I knew that the car mags were putting the Regal GS at 6.8 seconds 0-60......and I think I remember a road test of an automatic-equipped Mustang GT in the low 7-sec range. (Of course the auto-equipped GT would give Ford a slight handicap over a stick, but the audience didn't know that.)

Just to be sure before hand, the night before the races, once we acquired the vehicles, my "staff" helping me stage this event and I took the GS and GT out on a deserted desert road and ran them......and sure enough.....the GS held a slight-to-moderate lead on every run we ran.

Just to add insult to injury, we also added a Taurus SHO (ovoid-shaped, also V8-powered like GT) a Toyota Camry V6, and a Honda Accord V6. Of course the runway was definitely wide-enough that we could stage all five cars easily for a five-car drag race.

I drove the Regal on every run......and right next to me was the Mustang. On every run, the Regal GS came in first.....the GT second.....(then the biggest surprise)....the Camry 3rd (!! beating the SHO)....the SHO.....then pulling up a distant last place, the Accord V6.

The last run, just to make sure we weren't falsely staging this whole event, we invited the announcer down with four of his staff to repeat the drag race.......(5 non-GM, non-Buick, indepenent guys).....and the race finished the way it did in every other run.

I've never had so much fun in all my life. Interesting to note.....the lead Buick product planner for the time for the Regal thought I was crazy to do this......he thought the Mustang would slaughter us.....(shows how much HE knew) but I persisted and insisted......and we had a fun time....

After the drag racing......during the rest of the weekend event.....the Buick display with the Regal and SC 3800 was packed......

(Sorry for hijacking this thread....lol)

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't understand why all these CTS-V times are being shown. Wasn't it supposed to be Bob Lutz in a CTS-V against any challenger in a stock sedan?

If so, this appears to be the real final result:

Michael Cooper - BMW M3 - 2:50:424

Bob Lutz - CTS-V - 2:56:321

Michael Mainwald - BMW M5 - 3:05:398

Wes Siler- Mitsubishi Evo - 3:08:126

Archan Basu - Jaguar XF - 3:15:670

Tom Loder - Audi RS4 - 3:15:702

And as already stated, this comparison is heavily driver-skewed, as every driver was at a different level. It appears that none of the challengers were professional drivers (although at least one having some sort of driver training), so the CTS-V pro-driver times are pointless.

All in good competition. And Bob did manage to beat the M5.

Edit: and two journalists beat Bob in his own car. Perhaps Bob needs some more practice before he goes challenging the world. ;-]

The M3 driver was also professionally trained. I think we should put him in the CTS-V and see what he can do. Also, Bob was driving an automatic.

[CaddyXLR-V]

What was the weather like when you did those drag races? In my Grand Prix GTP, anytime it got hot out, I noticed a huge drop off in power, probably as much as 30hp less when the temp got above 90 outside. GM should have been smart enough to add an intercooler to the car from the factory, instead I had to install one on my own.

[Camino LS6]

Clearly, in any "apples to apples" comparison that can be drawn from the results, the CTS-V wins.

Driver skill really is not relevant, this is about the cars.

[balthazar]

Interesting to see - counter to an assertion posted elsewhere- that the evo wasn't relatively all that competitive.

Any feedback from the jag's performance that the brakes 'couldn't handle it' ??

If not, I think it's been proven why jag backed out.

Nice showing on Cadillac's part - hope to see the coupe even (slightly) quicker.

[hyperv6]

Guys this was showmanship and marketing at it's best. Now GM needs to get some 30 min segments on Speed Channel and show this a couple of weekends this winter when Speed has no racing programing.

I hate Pinks but it would be cool to see Bob show up on there with a ZR1 or Camaro.

This "It Ain't Bragging If You Can Back" it Up stuff is good for image building. You just keep it fair, accurate and creditable few can honestly deny it.

Cadillac needs Fox News new tag line for this run off. Fair, Honest and Unaffraid. While there may be a couple cars that could out run this car in this class none can do it even close to this price.

Edited October 29, 2009 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Yes, it is the sort of marketing position you can't buy.

You have to earn it.

Good stuff.

[BigPontiac]

http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/2009/10/29/cts...-the-challenge/

CTS-V Answers the Challenge

By admin ⋅ October 29, 2009 ⋅ Post a comment

Filed Under Bob Lutz, CTS-V, V-Series Challenge

By Bob Lutz, GM Vice Chairman

Today, at the Monticello Motor Club in New York, the Cadillac CTS-V stood tall in the V-Series Challenge, a race pitting the CTS-V against several of the best production sedans on the market today — those that showed up, that is.

Here are the results from the track. There were no winners or losers today – the point was to have fun with great cars because that’s what they’re all about, and to show that GM vehicles can compete with the best in the world, in every class. It was a great day for the CTS-V, and an exceptionally fun day for me. I’ll have to issue another challenge so I can do this again sometime soon, although I wish I had started doing these when I was younger!

The final results as posted by Cadillac:

Edited October 29, 2009 by BigPontiac

[smk4565]

Clearly, in any "apples to apples" comparison that can be drawn from the results, the CTS-V wins.

Driver skill really is not relevant, this is about the cars.

But this isn't apples to apples because of the different drivers. If I go out in a CTS-V having never driven the car or not knowing the track, and race Michael Shumacher in Mercedes E350, he'd beat me despite having half the horsepower. They need the same person driving the CTS-V and the M3 to get a really good comparison.

[Camino LS6]

But this isn't apples to apples because of the different drivers. If I go out in a CTS-V having never driven the car or not knowing the track, and race Michael Shumacher in Mercedes E350, he'd beat me despite having half the horsepower. They need the same person driving the CTS-V and the M3 to get a really good comparison.

Read more carefully, multiple comparisons can be drawn from the results: Pro-driver/Pro-driver, amatuer/amatuer...

Compare each separate finish that way, and guess what?

CTS-V wins.

[BigPontiac]

I find it most interesting that a 21 yr old shows up with a 2008 M3!

[Nick]

I find it most interesting that a 21 yr old shows up with a 2008 M3!

He has also been trained at Skip Barber if I read correctly. That's some money. I'd be interested to know what he does at his age to afford that (I know a few people like that) but it also wouldn't surprise me to learn that they were gifted to him from mommy and daddy. Hell, I wouldn't complain!

[Z-06]

But this isn't apples to apples because of the different drivers. If I go out in a CTS-V having never driven the car or not knowing the track, and race Michael Shumacher in Mercedes E350, he'd beat me despite having half the horsepower. They need the same person driving the CTS-V and the M3 to get a really good comparison.

Because that is you. I would beat the day lights out of Schumacher in such a race with those vehicles you told.

I find it most interesting that a 21 yr old shows up with a 2008 M3!

Be careful judging the age. Schumacher was running circles around Gerhard Berger, Jean Alesi who were almost 15 years senior, when he was only 20. If the BMW guy has proper track training then he is as good as Heinricy.

[Intrepidation]

smk: always ,making excuses for everyone that isn't Cadillac. If the results were different you would bitch about teh CTS-V and GM not doing a good job with DOHC and 90 speed automatic + 400 way seats that are heated, cooled, and scratch your ass.

[A Horse With No Name]

What was the weather like when you did those drag races? In my Grand Prix GTP, anytime it got hot out, I noticed a huge drop off in power, probably as much as 30hp less when the temp got above 90 outside. GM should have been smart enough to add an intercooler to the car from the factory, instead I had to install one on my own.

An intercooler costs money. How much extra do you want to pay for the car?

95-99% of the drivers would never have needed the extra performance.

The GP GTP was not as much of a pure performance car as the CTS-V.

Chris

[BigPontiac]

Be careful judging the age. Schumacher was running circles around Gerhard Berger, Jean Alesi who were almost 15 years senior, when he was only 20. If the BMW guy has proper track training then he is as good as Heinricy.

I'm not questioning ability at his age, just the idea that at 21 he can afford to both purchase and insure a 2008 M3. Certainly not "typical"...

[Z-06]

I'm not questioning ability at his age, just the idea that at 21 he can afford to both purchase and insure a 2008 M3. Certainly not "typical"...

Gotcha. Yeah not typical.

[A Horse With No Name]

Be careful judging the age. Schumacher was running circles around Gerhard Berger, Jean Alesi who were almost 15 years senior, when he was only 20. If the BMW guy has proper track training then he is as good as Heinricy.

Heinricy has won several SCCA championships.

Going to a drivers school will NOT make you as good as Heinricy. AMAZED that Lutz was that close.

M3/CTS-V- Very close cars performance wise but...

One of the guys who I do electrical work for is a salesman at the local BMW dealer. Let's just say overall...having experienced both the CTS-V and the M-3...I would strongly prefer the CTS-V.

[Z-06]

Heinricy has won several SCCA championships.

Going to a drivers school will NOT make you as good as Heinricy. AMAZED that Lutz was that close.

M3/CTS-V- Very close cars performance wise but...

One of the guys who I do electrical work for is a salesman at the local BMW dealer. Let's just say overall...having experienced both the CTS-V and the M-3...I would strongly prefer the CTS-V.

I am not saying Heinricy is talentless. I have great respect for that guy. It is just that a 20 year old can really turn and dance car around.

[A Horse With No Name]

I've seen 20 year old guys in a pack of 65 drivers at SCCA races, and the 20 year old is out front leading...and a lot of the guys he's in front of are 40, 50, 60 years old.

All I am saying is that Heinricy is top level talent.

The CTS actually looks better to me after this test, because it shows that a less than perfect driver (Lutz) can still get an awesome lap time out of it.

A fast car is no good if it takes a pro driver to get the most of it.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Youth vs. Experience: a classic matchup.

[hyperv6]

An intercooler costs money. How much extra do you want to pay for the car?

95-99% of the drivers would never have needed the extra performance.

The GP GTP was not as much of a pure performance car as the CTS-V.

Chris

As a GTP Comp G owner I can say it is nothinh but a family car anymore. Todays cars leave the 3800 SC as a also ran.

John H rules!! Been to some of his races and he is amazing. Just watch some of his runs at the ring in anything from a CTSV to an HHR SS. His Cobalt SS run is very cool. I love it when it gets quiet and he is getting air.

That is true a very good car will make anyone fast. Lutz may be a above average driver but he is not a racer. I think that speak volumes for the CTSV.

[CaddyXLR-V]

An intercooler costs money. How much extra do you want to pay for the car?

95-99% of the drivers would never have needed the extra performance.

The GP GTP was not as much of a pure performance car as the CTS-V.

Chris

Because it was only a 210hp car for 6 months out of the year? Actually in AZ it was 210hp 9 months out of the year. I spent $1,200 to get an intercooler, and installed it myself, which GM could probably have done for $400. I don't know about you, but when I buy a car and the window sticker says 240hp, I want 240hp and not 210.

[CaddyXLR-V]

As a GTP Comp G owner I can say it is nothinh but a family car anymore. Todays cars leave the 3800 SC as a also ran.

And an HHR isn't a family car at all

My Grand Prix was no GTO or Corvette, but it was less a family car(and at least it was a coupe) than the HHR SS is which you praise all the time.

[Lamar]

But this isn't apples to apples because of the different drivers. If I go out in a CTS-V having never driven the car or not knowing the track, and race Michael Shumacher in Mercedes E350, he'd beat me despite having half the horsepower. They need the same person driving the CTS-V and the M3 to get a really good comparison.

Then you suck as a driver. My mother would win THAT race.

[siegen]

Michael Cooper (the M3 driver) shares his thoughts over here. Apparently he did drive the CTS-V too, but not timed. He thinks the CTS-V feels faster overall and likes the acceleration and braking abilities of it.

Of note is that he only had two timed laps in the M3, preceded by 5-6 hot laps. It isn't difficult to guess that he could have put down better times with more practice and more timed laps.

My main beef with GM is that they fielded three professional drivers, who obviously placed the quickest times, in order to drive home a CTS-V victory. It doesn't matter if Bob was driving an automatic, that was his choice and he was the one challenging everyone. Just because he's an old fart doesn't mean with some training and practice he couldn't have put down a respectable time and made the competition more valid, perhaps beating the M3 himself.

Edited October 30, 2009 by siegen

[CaddyXLR-V]

Michael Cooper (the M3 driver) shares his thoughts over here. Apparently he did drive the CTS-V too, but not timed. He thinks the CTS-V feels faster overall and likes the acceleration and braking abilities of it.

Of note is that he only had two timed laps in the M3, preceded by 5-6 hot laps. It isn't difficult to guess that he could have put down better times with more practice and more timed laps.

My main beef with GM is that they fielded three professional drivers, who obviously placed the quickest times, in order to drive home a CTS-V victory. It doesn't matter if Bob was driving an automatic, that was his choice and he was the one challenging everyone. Just because he's an old fart doesn't mean with some training and practice he couldn't have put down a respectable time and made the competition more valid, perhaps beating the M3 himself.

And generally, GM's automatics are just as quick as their manuals, so even though it was an auto, I don't see that as being a handicap.