Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats

[SAmadei]

One possible remedy is to redesign the accelerator pedal to make it harder to get caught by a floor mat, he said. Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.

Such fail-safes are needed, auto experts say, because sudden acceleration can cause drivers to panic, diminishing their ability to take swift action -- such as shutting off the engine or shifting into neutral.

If anybody should have known how to stop an out-of-control car, it was Saylor, who was trained in emergency and high-speed driving as a 19-year CHP veteran. But a close look at the Lexus ES 350 raises questions about whether the car's very design may have compromised Saylor's skills.

One obvious line of defense is to simply shut off the engine, a step that may not be intuitive on the ES 350. The car has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.

But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.

"When you are dealing with an emergency, you can't wait three seconds for the car to respond at 120 miles an hour," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety.

Full Story

[the_yellow_dart]

The plot thickens.

Also this serves as a good argument against the over-electronicising of cars.

[Robert Hall]

Full Story

Push button start seems so lame..what's wrong w/ a normal ignition key approach?

[SAmadei]

Push button start seems so lame..what's wrong w/ a normal ignition key approach?

I think its the computer/ipod culture as applied to cars. I want the opposite... I want to start my computer by turning an ignition key!

[Drew Dowdell]

Paging SMK.... PAGING SMK.....

Push button start is one of the items on his "must have" list for a car to be any good.

[Justin Bimmer]

I like push-button start but it certainly needs to be explained to somebody renting a car or buying a car with that feature installed.

[FloydHendershot]

I wonder how many people with push button start know how to cut the engine like that and if the systems differ. Until now that is a question I admit would not have asked.

That does indeed shed some light on this.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/200...ll-fatal-crash/

Graphic.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/m...edia/car911.mp3

Edited October 19, 2009 by FloydHendershot

[Robert Hall]

I like push-button start but it certainly needs to be explained to somebody renting a car or buying a car with that feature installed.

I've never seen the value in push button start...maybe some buyers lack sufficient wrist strength to twist a key? Are people really that lazy today?

I'm capable of reaching in my pocket and pushing the unlock button on the fob to unlock the car as I approach it, as well as pulling out the key and fob, inserting it into the 'ignitiion' and twisting said ignition to start the car. As well as twisting said ignition the opposite direction to shut off the car. And then push to lock button on the fob to lock the car as I walk away... What's so difficult about that workflow? I just don't get it...

Edited October 19, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[FloydHendershot]

I've never seen the value in push button start...maybe some buyers lack sufficient wrist strength to twist a key?

Some people like to make "vroom vroom" noises while the car is in park, too.

[Robert Hall]

Some people like to make "vroom vroom" noises while the car is in park, too.

I have a friend that always rests his hand on the automatic shifter while driving so he can pretend that he's shifting while driving...

[Justin Bimmer]

Here is the main reason why I like it:

I never have to take the key fob out of my pocket.

No need to unlock the doors, just pull on the handle and it opens for me. No need to put the key in the ignition just push a button.

I guess part of this comes from my bus driving days. No keys in transit buses either. Just turn the knob and push the button.

[siegen]

The idea of carrying around a fob in your pocket and having your car unlock/lock automatically, plus push a button to start with no need to mess around with a key, sounds great. But having to hold the button down 3-seconds to stop the engine while running is no good. It isn't intuitive. Perhaps a good compromise would be to have a normal-looking ignition switch, that is rotated just like a regular one (one notch for accessories, two notches for "on", and all the way to start; like a normal car). The main difference being that a key would not have to be inserted.

Push button starts FTL.

[Drew Dowdell]

On my Cadillac, even though it was key start, if you flicked the key to start, the computer would take over and finish the start sequence. You couldn't "understart" the car... for lack of a better word.

edit: wow! my grammar suffers when I'm distracted

[the_yellow_dart]

On my Cadillac, even though it was key start, if you flicked the key to start, the computer would take over and finish the start sequence. You couldn't "understart" the car... for lack of a better word.

edit: wow! my grammar suffers when I'm distracted

My Cobalt is the same way. I'm so used to the 'flick-start' now that when I get in other cars I'm always confused why they won't start, then I have to remember that most cars need the starter held on manually.

[DetroitNut90]

This makes me wonder how long the Lexus was in possession of the CHP officer. If this was the first time he took it out, I can see him being unfamiliar with the start/stop protocols. But if he'd driven it around before, he should've been aware of the 3-second hold for stop. I mean, he wouldn't have gotten out of the car and just let it sit running in his driveway or a parking lot until he needed it again.

[FloydHendershot]

This makes me wonder how long the Lexus was in possession of the CHP officer. If this was the first time he took it out, I can see him being unfamiliar with the start/stop protocols. But if he'd driven it around before, he should've been aware of the 3-second hold for stop. I mean, he wouldn't have gotten out of the car and just let it sit running in his driveway or a parking lot until he needed it again.

Being he was a CHP officer I heard he often practiced the "duck and roll" method of egress to the dismay of his family and never tried to exit the car while it was stopped. This is actually quite common for those in law enforcement as they feel this helps keep them sharp.

The point of 3 seconds as an emergency kill switch is so it doesn't have an 'oops' on the highway. Some "kill" switch. A misnomer and at the same time, not.

Edited October 19, 2009 by FloydHendershot

[Drew Dowdell]

Flick it into neutral and let the rev limiter do it's job.

[Robert Hall]

Flick it into neutral and let the rev limiter do it's job.

Sounds like the ES has an interlock to prevent it from going into to neutral when moving. Sounds like a lot of bad design all the way around, starting with the stupid push button..

[FloydHendershot]

Flick it into neutral and let the rev limiter do it's job.

Neutral might stop you from accelerating but won't necessarily slow you down if going downhill for instance. Throwing it into a lower gear would certainly help if the car's programming allows you to. I would take that chance even at 120 and hope or the best.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sounds like the ES has an interlock to prevent it from going into to neutral when moving. Sounds like a lot of bad design all the way around, starting with the stupid push button..

Srsly? I've never had a car that did that.

[Drew Dowdell]

Neutral might stop you from accelerating but won't necessarily slow you down if going downhill for instance. Throwing it into a lower gear would certainly help if the car's programming allows you to. I would take that chance even at 120 and hope or the best.

Only the gas pedal was stuck... not the brake.

I'll amend my statement to include what I thought was bleedin obvious.

"Flick the car into neutral and let the rev limiter do it's job.... and then press the brake."

[Robert Hall]

Srsly? I've never had a car that did that.

There were something to that fact in one of the earlier threads on this subject..

[FloydHendershot]

Only the gas pedal was stuck... not the brake.

I'll amend my statement to include what I thought was bleedin obvious.

"Flick the car into neutral and let the rev limiter do it's job.... and then press the brake."

Yes, this is true but whatever 'credible' info out there about this indicated the brakes were cooked. Now, that can mean the car was shifted to N and he tried that or he couldn't do that at all or X factor. This partially supported by his background and or training. It is not always so bleeding obvious. :AH-HA_wink:

But, yes your suggestion should be first course of action in a situation as tragic as this one turned out.

Edited October 19, 2009 by FloydHendershot

[toesuf94]

Yes, this is true but whatever 'credible' info out there about this indicated the brakes were cooked. Now, that can mean the car was shifted to N and he tried that or he couldn't do that at all or X factor. This partially supported by his background and or training. It is not always so bleeding obvious. :AH-HA_wink:

But, yes your suggestion should be first course of action in a situation as tragic as this one turned out.

It was an out of control car...I say slam it up against the guardrail and let FRICTION stop the damned thing.

I am going to see what happens on the M5 if you slap it to N or press the start button while it is moving. Be good to know if mine did this.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well then it's not entirely the floormat's fault. Even flipping it into neutral would have stopped the acceleration. I doubt the brakes were cooked when they got the car. If they were cooked by the end of this incident it's likely because he didn't flip it into neutral...otherwise we'd be hearing about a recall of Lexus brakes.

[siegen]

But if he'd driven it around before, he should've been aware of the 3-second hold for stop. I mean, he wouldn't have gotten out of the car and just let it sit running in his driveway or a parking lot until he needed it again.

From my understanding, the 3-second is only for while the vehicle is moving. When it is stopped and in park, it would only take a single tap to turn it off or on.

[siegen]

It was an out of control car...I say slam it up against the guardrail and let FRICTION stop the damned thing.

Really that is the sensible thing to do, especially if it's a loaner and you aren't attached the vehicle at all. Unless there was no guardrail. I-5 around here has a lot of areas where it is just trees, or a big ditch, on either side. No guardrail or wall to rub up against. Next best thing would be to find a nice big semi and ram him from behind!

That doesn't sound right...

[Robert Hall]

Next best thing would be to find a nice big semi and ram him from behind!

A low car w/ a slopey nose like the ES would go under the semi and take the roof right off, probably.

[toesuf94]

A low car w/ a slopey nose like the ES would go under the semi and take the roof right off, probably.

true...and from what I read of the incident, the brakes were BURNING when they were passing other motorists on the highway. Literally people saw flames out of the wheels.

That must be scary as all hell to be in a car possessed. And knowing they all died for what amounts to a $20.00 part and some seriously flawed 'engineering'. Sad.

[Justin Bimmer]

Your pedal is stuck, you have screaming kids in the car, your brakes are on fire.

Tell me, where is neutral? If you fail, how do you correct it to find neutral?

[pow]

Your pedal is stuck, you have screaming kids in the car, your brakes are on fire.

Tell me, where is neutral? If you fail, how do you correct it to find neutral?

If you're in "D", push it up, to "N."

However, he might have been driving in sport mode, or "S." Pushing up would make it upshift.

[Croc]

It was an out of control car...I say slam it up against the guardrail and let FRICTION stop the damned thing.

I am going to see what happens on the M5 if you slap it to N or press the start button while it is moving. Be good to know if mine did this.

I posted in a previous thread that on this particular highway, there is no concrete K-rail divider, but a traditional steel bar and wooden post guardrail and median drainage ditch. At the speeds they were going, that would have flipped them for sure.

[Justin Bimmer]

The way I'm looking at the shift gate, if he were to push it up, it wouldn't go into N, it has to be a diagonal up. Lets say he pushed it up and couldn't get it back around into neutral in enough time after he realized his mistake?

Shift gates are too complicated. In the toyota van I drove, I had a hell of a time finding D.

[FloydHendershot]

It was an out of control car...I say slam it up against the guardrail and let FRICTION stop the damned thing.

I am going to see what happens on the M5 if you slap it to N or press the start button while it is moving. Be good to know if mine did this.

Sorry but LOL that or a variation of that is plan "B" maybe C. Listen to the 911 call. No plan of going out like that. And by the way I am interested to know how the BMW responds. After this story I think everyone who heard about it should know what their car does when pushed like that.

[FloydHendershot]

Really that is the sensible thing to do, especially if it's a loaner and you aren't attached the vehicle at all. Unless there was no guardrail. I-5 around here has a lot of areas where it is just trees, or a big ditch, on either side. No guardrail or wall to rub up against. Next best thing would be to find a nice big semi and ram him from behind!

That doesn't sound right...

No, and when she was told they were going to name a bar after her, Jane Mansfield was thrilled to death, but you got the right idea.

[Paolino]

Srsly? I've never had a car that did that.

Ah, so my 1987 Sundance was so ahead of its time... I once was leaving the car and knocked my bag into the floorshift and it dropped into neutral as there was no lock on it. Fortunately I was on fairly level ground and it didn't roll more than a couple of inches.

[Drew Dowdell]

The way I'm looking at the shift gate, if he were to push it up, it wouldn't go into N, it has to be a diagonal up. Lets say he pushed it up and couldn't get it back around into neutral in enough time after he realized his mistake?

Shift gates are too complicated. In the toyota van I drove, I had a hell of a time finding D.

If he was in D, he just needed to push it up.

[fightingbee]

Perhaps a good compromise would be to have a normal-looking ignition switch, that is rotated just like a regular one (one notch for accessories, two notches for "on", and all the way to start; like a normal car). The main difference being that a key would not have to be inserted.

Push button starts FTL.

Nissan/Infiniti had that setup a few years back, before the pushbutton became the automotive must-have du jour. They just had a large plastic knob much like many of the Ford ignition locks also have, and you could insert the fob into it just like a key should the keyless system quit working.

[Croc]

If he was in D, he just needed to push it up.

Nope. From D, N isn't straight up, it's diagonal up, to the right. Look at the rest of the shift gate: P corresponds to where the shift lever is, in that gate. R is the next gate. N is the smallest, easiest to pass over gate, and D is the giant gate, with up and down from there being manual up- and down-shifts.

But of course it's confusing, because the N is right on top of the D, and right next to the + spot.

Poor labeling.

[Camino LS6]

I guarantee you that I would have stopped that car.

[Croc]

I guarantee you that I would have stopped that car.

Normally I would issue a challenge to test such a claim, but in this tragic situation I hardly think it's appropriate to prove how one may or may not be a better/more capable/more qualified driver. Four people died horrifically, and the driver was highly-trained. Unless you're in that kind of a panic situation, I just think there are too many variables present to pass judgment here.

Here we have had disagreements on how to shift this particular car into neutral between seasoned drivers staring at the same picture of the shiftgate, debates over whether or not the ES350 has neutral lock, questions over the differing operations of individual manufacturers' push-start ignition systems, best-practices on stopping/maneuvering an out-of-control vehicle under duress (shut off, or coast in neutral?)...and it isn't even entirely clear what this highly-trained CHiP did (other than use the brakes, resulting in shooting flames from the brakes) and did not do in an attempt to stop the car.

Like most tragic accidents, there was no singular cause here, but rather a combination of many: unintuitive push-button ignition kill operations, flawed floor mat/accelerator design, unfamiliarity with the vehicle, a freeway without a concrete K-rail center divider that ended in a T intersection because it has not been extended to completion yet, cooked brakes, etc.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Croc

[toesuf94]

I propose that somebody here goes and test drives an ES350 NOW and tries the tips we have learned here to see if they can stop the car. Who is game?

Step 1: Throw floormats out of drivers area of car...then drive.

[aaaantoine]

At Cadillac, the STS and XLR have push-button start. The CTS, on the other hand, has a turnkey mechanism... but it's still keyless.

[FloydHendershot]

I propose that somebody here goes and test drives an ES350 NOW and tries the tips we have learned here to see if they can stop the car. Who is game?

Step 1: Throw floormats out of drivers area of car...then drive.

I as looking for an online owners manual to see what they tell you, I could not find one and like your idea better. So did someone else.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1859407

It seems as if you only get one chance with the brakes.

At Cadillac, the STS and XLR have push-button start. The CTS, on the other hand, has a turnkey mechanism... but it's still keyless.

Judging from the manual there is an "off"/Accessory button that will shut the engine no matter what, but starting it might be difficult if there is a large radio antenna in the area. LOL

Edited October 20, 2009 by FloydHendershot

[Drew Dowdell]

Nope. From D, N isn't straight up, it's diagonal up, to the right. Look at the rest of the shift gate: P corresponds to where the shift lever is, in that gate. R is the next gate. N is the smallest, easiest to pass over gate, and D is the giant gate, with up and down from there being manual up- and down-shifts.

But of course it's confusing, because the N is right on top of the D, and right next to the + spot.

Poor labeling.

I agree, it's poor labeling. It looks like the designer of the 2000 Florida Ballots went on to a successful design career at Toyota.

However, even as complicated as it looks, it's still just a PNRDL automatic shifter. The shifts come at the same exact points as they would on any other car... you just get to wiggle the stick from side to side to get that expensive "Mercedes" feeling. "S" is for the "Sport Mode" so desperately needed in an ES350. "D" is directly to the right of that.

I made this pic to show where everything is.

[toesuf94]

I as looking for an online owners manual to see what they tell you, I could not find one and like your idea better. So did someone else.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1859407

It seems as if you only get one chance with the brakes.

Judging from the manual there is an "off"/Accessory button that will shut the engine no matter what, but starting it might be difficult if there is a large radio antenna in the area. LOL

THAT may be the best bit of investigative journalism ever! I actually laughed at the thought of the guy taking out a brand new Lexus and pretty much TRYING to destroy it. The brakes are DONE on that car. Pads and rotors should be pretty glazed. And the thought of slipping the trans into gear/N/R/P while having one's foot on the floor caused me a great laugh. Kudos goes out to the author on this one.

If you have not read the link...it basically says you can put the car in Neutral and you can shut the car off by holding the start button for 3 seconds. Two steps that would have saved four lives.

[Drew Dowdell]

Not dying in a runaway crash - advantage Buick.

[Justin Bimmer]

Wow, the letter is next to the slot it needs to go into!

Nice and big too for all the old farts

[Justin Bimmer]

It even lights up in the new lacrosse!

+9001 buick