So what is GM doing wrong?

[VenSeattle]

How does JD Power measure extended reliability for a 2005 model ten years from now? The answer to me is not at all. That's why I don't buy into any of thier studies. They show durability over a period of 90 days, then they show reliability in the first year, and all is good

[post="67736"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

JDP's Initial Quality Study is for 90 days. Their VDS did cover 5 years, but then they changed it to cover 3 years. The study does not grade 2005 model year vehicles. The 2005 VDS covers MY2001/2 vehicles after 3 years of ownership by the original owner. IIRC, they don't have a one year study.

but I'd like to see reliability over ten years of ownership, or roughly 150-200k mileage. I don't think that is how JD is doing thier tests.

Why? You wouldn't believe it or accept it either. The reason why they don't go out that far is because anything after 3 years typically extends past the 1st vehicle owner, usual standard warranty period that's backed by the manufacturer, too many other factors come into play that can hinder an accurate judge of manufacturer build quality & reliability (irregular maintenance, lack of maintenance, abuse, neglect, standard wear and tear, car accidents), and the vehicle has long been replaced by a different model/platform successor.

A sample of what you requested: (fictitious): JDP's 2005 VDS covering 1994 vehicles just came out and (after 10 years) the 1994 Chevrolet Corsica was declared the most reliable compact/midsize vehicle. The 1994 Mitsubishi Expo was declared the most reliable wagon. The 1994 Honda Civic del Sol was the most reliable roadster/coupe. The 1994 Volvo 940 was most reliable premium vehicle.

How in the hell does that help you now in the new car market? It doesn't. A 2005 reliability study on 2002 model cars does.

[turbo200]

Perhaps ten years was taking it a bit too far. I will accept any test that can be verified. It's my experince that GM cars that I've driven with more than 70k miles, which has been limited experience, have not held up like Japanese cars can and do. The Japanese cars I've driven that have exceed the 100k mark are stellar in thier durablitiy and the way they've held up over the years. Every GM I've driven with equivalent mileage squeeks, rattles, shakes, feels old in general. I have yet to experience a GM car post 2000 with high mileage. I will say my sister owns a Grand Am GT, which I convinced her to buy, and it's a 2000, and it drives like brand new. It has 45k miles and she babies it like NO OTHER. Literally like no other, I mean she hates putting the fan speeds above 2, because it's "taxing". I got that gene, but it displays itself in other ways. Anyways, my point is just that. When you're talking about reliability and durability, well first of all it's an incredibly important issue, and it's the magic ace card Japanese fans still have to thier defense. A GM car has yet to prove to me it can hold up quite as well. The reliability tests that matter to me are reliability over a 5 year, 6 year, 7 year period, as well as durability and endurance tests over that same timespan. No matter what, if I pay even 13k for a brand new car, it damn well better be perfect for a 3 year period, that's a huge chunk of money in my book. And if one company can do it right, then every other company needs to meet that standard. Otherwise I will be taking my business to the company that can treat me right.

[turbo200]

Ultimately this kind of study only would help those interested in keeping thier cars for an extended period of time. But it is still a test worth taking. And it would still give credence to your argument that GM cars are in fact "as reliable" as Toyota. That's a heady statement to make, and I'm not buying with just those facts you posted regarding cars over a three year period. Now, I am agreeing with you that GM cars are very reliable, but I don't know that they've reached that Holy Grail level of durability of the Japanese. Seriously, go out and test drive a late 90's Accord or Maxima or Camry that has not been abused, it's a revelation. Satty's had one, and I know many more here have too. GM, as the world's largest automaker, should be interested in meeting all these standards I possess for cars, as well as Japanese engineers have for thier own work. If the Japs can literally perfect the vehicle and engine in so many ways, GM needs to be looking into how to get to those standards. They are making vast improvements, and the net result will be a better car for everyone and a healthier GM. Edited January 5, 2006 by turbo200

[VenSeattle]

Anyways, my point is just that. When you're talking about reliability and durability, well first of all it's an incredibly important issue, and it's the magic ace card Japanese fans still have to thier defense. A GM car has yet to prove to me it can hold up quite as well. The reliability tests that matter to me are reliability over a 5 year, 6 year, 7 year period, as well as durability and endurance tests over that same timespan. No matter what, if I pay even 13k for a brand new car, it damn well better be perfect for a 3 year period, that's a huge chunk of money in my book. And if one company can do it right, then every other company needs to meet that standard. Otherwise I will be taking my business to the company that can treat me right.

[post="67891"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do you think a vehicle that held up poorly over 3 years will miraculously become reliable after 6 years? Cars aren't perfect after 3 years. None of them are. Not even Lexus. The difference is after 3 years, you're usually paying for it. That's my point and the point of the VDS. You're apparently interested in the used car market. JDP focuses on new car buyers who are looking to invest a lot more money in a vehicle that a used car buyer will pay 15% MSRP down the road.

The Japanese have their current claim to fame because of these 3 & 5 year studies. GM is now doing excellent in them. In fact GM's improvements in the study outpace the Japanese manufacturers. Doubt that? Then how did GM catch up (and surpass in some situations) in a matter of 5 years?

[turbo200]

I beleive the Japanese claim to fame is "change the oil in it every 3k miles and it'll run past 200k miles". That's the line I've heard from every mechanic and person who remotely knows more about cars than the average person. Japanese are legendary for being easy to own as long as the proper maintenance is performed. So, in essence, Japanese cars are perfect, and a Lexus will run perfectly beyond 200k miles. Of course, this is in general, but it is a wide known perception. Every carmakers have thier lemons, but in general, Toyotas and Hondas are know for running perfectly. This perception didn't just come out of nowhere either, check all the reliability reports you can find and you will see Japanese cars are the highest rated, and not just JD Power either. Read around forums, check the lists of problems for all makes and all models, and read objectively, meaning don't try to find a huge fault in one model Toyota has and say everything they make is crap. You will find GM has some work to do with regards to perception, and probably more work in the reliability department as well. I am not interested in any car market right now by the way, I am just being objective and arguing your proof that GM's cars are as reliable as the Japanese. That's a bold statement to make in my book; you've got to have good evidence of that. Even if new car buyers aren't interested in this data, a used car buyer will 90% of the time turn into a new car buyer at some time in thier life. Anyone else have this experience or have heard this saying about Japanese cars?

[turbo200]

It's not because of a bad experience... it's because of bad press and negative association by friends/relatives.

[post="67730"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do you really think before the Internet, that many people really cared to look around and do research or had the access to it? The "media" is a lot more accessible today than ever before, but people started turning away from GM decades ago.

In most cases, people have turned away from GM because of bad experience. Even with all the access there is to the media today, probably less than half the car buying public have educated themselves.

The half that has educated themselves, most or all of them have read the bad press. Some of them still make the decision to purchase GM. Because a lot of the bad press is deserved, and goes after the right cars, not the good cars GM produces. Cobalt had a lot of excellent reviews when it was first released. Then comparison tests showed it didn't match the competition. Impala had excellent press too. Equinox had excellent press. I can go on here, but I think you understand my point.

Others will not purchase GM. Most adults take the opinions of others, digest them, and still go and form thier own opinions. So in many cases these people will still go out and test drive a GM. Those that don't usually don't do it because of a multitude of reasons: last time they were car shopping they checked GM and saw a lousy vehicle; they've glanced at GMs latest wares and refuse to take them for a test drive because of quality issues with the interior [a more solidly built and quality designed interior will give the perception of a "better" and more reliable car]. Multitude of reasons. But this is very important: most adults take others' opinions, digest them, and still go out and form thier own opinions, and use thier own experience to justify thier opinions.

The media has an influence, but only so much. If a person who swore off GM ten years ago, reads the latest Tahoe reviews they may be compelled just to go in and give it another shot. Then again, they might read the latest STS reviews, and find out thier opinion was right in the first place, they have been validated, and there is no reason for them to check out GM again. This is the kind of walls GM is up against. But place the blame in the right place, GM has brought this on themselves.

[VenSeattle]

I beleive the Japanese claim to fame is "change the oil in it every 3k miles and it'll run past 200k miles". That's the line I've heard from every mechanic and person who remotely knows more about cars than the average person. Japanese are legendary for being easy to own as long as the proper maintenance is performed. So, in essence, Japanese cars are perfect, and a Lexus will run perfectly beyond 200k miles. Of course, this is in general, but it is a wide known perception. Every carmakers have thier lemons, but in general, Toyotas and Hondas are know for running perfectly.This perception didn't just come out of nowhere either, check all the reliability reports you can find and you will see Japanese cars are the highest rated, and not just JD Power either. Read around forums, check the lists of problems for all makes and all models, and read objectively, meaning don't try to find a huge fault in one model Toyota has and say everything they make is crap. You will find GM has some work to do with regards to perception, and probably more work in the reliability department as well. I am not interested in any car market right now by the way, I am just being objective and arguing your proof that GM's cars are as reliable as the Japanese. That's a bold statement to make in my book; you've got to have good evidence of that. Even if new car buyers aren't interested in this data, a used car buyer will 90% of the time turn into a new car buyer at some time in thier life. Anyone else have this experience or have heard this saying about Japanese cars?

[post="67908"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

After reading this last post, there's absolutely nothing I can present as evidence to even be considered rationally. I find your statements HARDLY being objective. You want to quote no-name mechanics, "people" you've talked with, and posts read in forums as PROOF that Japanese cars are perfect, and dismiss consistent evidence from companies that are in business to monitor this. That's fine. That's fine... then by those standards I'm just as reliable as your resources.

Believe what you want and dismiss JDP and other resources that come out annually that have been noting that GM's quality is increasing and that the "reliability gap" is gone...

Even Hyundai can build reliable cars, and have the confidence to back them for a long period of time.

[post="67736"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And your objective proof in this statement? I can't find ANY long term reliability information to back this up, but you've adopted it as gospel yet you can't accept GM builds equally reliable vehicles when there are reports that conclude that.

[Guest Josh]

In many way you hit part of GM's structural issues right on the head.  But that is one aspect of the organization that has been resolved and will take a few years until most of the old Pre-Lutz vehicles make there way out of the fleet.

[post="67495"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You mean we STILL have Pre-Lutz vehicles in the pipeline? NO Flippin' Way! No wonder what we see in concept form is never what we get production. Man, the GMT-360's if made today instead of delayed were out people would be singing a far different tune.

If this is right and there are still Pre-Lutz GM vehicles that have yet to be released kick me between the legs now because that's moronic.

[VenSeattle]

The media has an influence, but only so much. If a person who swore off GM ten years ago, reads the latest Tahoe reviews they may be compelled just to go in and give it another shot. Then again, they might read the latest STS reviews, and find out thier opinion was right in the first place, they have been validated, and there is no reason for them to check out GM again. This is the kind of walls GM is up against. But place the blame in the right place, GM has brought this on themselves.

[post="67916"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm not saying people did not originally denounce GM from a bad experience, what I said was exactly what you stated in your last paragraph... it's bad press that's keeping them from trying GM again. GM can't change the past, but the media can change the present. A well written "glowing" review (biased or not) can persuade the most adamant disbeliever into trying something again. Your Tahoe example illustrates that. The STS example backs up what usually happens. In both cases, the media is the wall or the doorway through the wall.

You state consumers are more educated now... how? It's through "reading" more than anything. Most never step into a dealership before deciding the make & model. Most of what they read are rehashed stories about the 70's & 80's from private parties & also current media reviews. Like the "CTS vs valiant attempt at an entry-level luxury car" comparisons & the "Allante vs XLR" comparisons. 15-20 years later, and the media can't look at the new vehicle without rehashing the old. Then there are the ton of negative media articles that have nothing to do with the product but just GM itself.

“Good experiences are forgotten but bad experiences are remembered forever” is another phrase. The people who refuse to buy GM cars from the 70's & 80's still preach that today... and tell their children not to buy GM also. Since parents are usually the one helping with the purchase or helping with research... their influence is staggering. A 20-something today who never experienced the 1970's or 1980's would still not consider a GM product just by parental influence… or pressure from friends who repeat what they’ve been taught.

----

My personal evidence? I’ve owned two GM vehicles. No problems. I've owned one foreign make and the transmission had to be replaced. All three new. Before that, I had a Chrysler with a foreign built engine. The engine stalled 8 times in 14 months. It was also new.

I grew up in Buicks. My parents have owned 4 of them and only had one mechanical problem: a gasket leak on one of the transmissions. There’s my word of mouth, and "direct/personal" experience.

[VenSeattle]

Turbo200... I'll publicly admit that you're an intelligent guy and are a terrific contributor to C&G. So don't take the posts above personally... I'll PM you tomorrow when I have more time and we'll continue this on from there. Ok? (no ,this is not a matter of getting the last word/post)

[razoredge]

Man !!!!!!!!! The nonsence rolls out as predicable as the calander changes. "yea but, yea but, yea but, whant, whant, whant", all of 0 years experience in the big world and knows it all.........from reliable resources..... I just dont see any credibility here what so ever.

[prototype66]

I must of miss something - ha ha

No problem to what ever I missed.  I just wanted to summarize what I read into your post and thought you were elluding to as GM's poor communications skills.

[post="67636"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Perhaps it is poor communication . Still in the situation they are in, the PRESS is taking troubling news and over emphisizing it to put a much worse picture in the minds eye of possible consumers. Not to mention bringing back former ones.

[evok]

Man !!!!!!!!! The nonsence rolls out as predicable as the calander changes. "yea but, yea but, yea but, whant, whant, whant", all of 0 years experience in the big world and knows it all.........from reliable resources..... I just dont see any credibility here what so ever.

[post="67959"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Then why do you continue to make matters worse?

[CARBIZ]

VenSeattle has covered most of the issues as I see them, but I think there are two points that have been missed. Firstly, as to longevity of vehicles, how can you compare the "typical" Toyota of circa 1990 to the "typical" GM Chevrolet, or Buick of the same period. If you look at the percentage of vehicles sold in that era from GM that were equipped with a high level of gadgets (digital dashboards, automatic temp controls, power seats, ABS, etc.) it is clear that the PROBABILITY of something going wrong with the typical GM product would have to be higher than the typical Toyota or Honda. A 1990 Accord would have typically been equipped with a 5 spd manual, a/c and a cassette. Period. Of course the damned thing is going to last a while!!! I just took in a 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis last night. Mechanically, the car is a pin. The body has almost no rust. However, the power seat is shot, 3 power windows don't work and it was $1,500 to fix the a/c. Would a typical 1991 Toyota even have all those features? Since GM pioneered many of the toys that were found in the early '90's, it would be safe to say that a lot of them failed. An ABS module on a 1993 Cavalier would be enough to scrap the car in today's market - the 1993 Corolla wouldn't even be found with such a contraption! Secondly, DesRosiers marketing in Canada did conduct a survey in 2000. They studied pre-1987 vehicles that were sold versus those that were still on the road, and did the same thing for post-1987 vehicles. (Their rationale at the time for doing this breakdown was that Acura came out in 1987 and they wanted to see what impact the Japanese luxury brands would have on the numbers.) To their surprise, there were more GM and Ford brands still on the road in both categories than their Asian counterparts. They could not explain that. Of course, the study wasn't definitive. Maybe import buyers are worse drivers and their vehicles are written off faster. Maybe they were all stolen and shipped over seas. But as a pure numbers game, the study was interesting. Perception versus reality. If people keep telling you that you are a loser, eventually you will believe that you are.

[razoredge]

Thats is the reality. Even today there are late 80's GM's still on the road while the imports have been gone for a long time. Most Buicks and Oldsmobiles that went to the junk yards went due to rusted fuel and brake lines or fuel pump failure leading to discovery that fuel and brake lines would also need replacing becasue they would not survive pulling the tank due to rust. A job that typically cost near or better than $1000, something that most people just dont have laying around for auto repair. So they go get another loan and start again and the car goes to junk yard. Hardly a long term reliability problem. Theres still old Cavaliers & A bodys running around too while all those Preludes & gang have been long gone 5 years + I spent far more time hunting used parts in JY's and repairing cars back when I was driving imports than I have since I switched to GM's. Yet theres been a full (highly predictable) book writtin about how GMs are and have been unreliable.

[rkmdogs]

Yes, GM's reliability has improved, but the imports have not stagnated, they have improved on thier already legendary reliability. GM will have to do better than just having reliable cars. Even Hyundai can build reliable cars, and have the confidence to back them for a long period of time.

[post="67736"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yup,yup,yup!

There is an old expression that GM needs to follow ---- put your money where your
mouth is!

If GM quality is up there, better than the Japs or Koreans ----- then show it in your
warranty! This business of 3 years or 36,000 miles says to the public, we don't have any confidence in our product quality or durability! You Urban yuppies
probably don't drive 36,000 miles in your lifetimes, but some of us do get out and
massage the blacktop for much longer distances.

If GM products are better than Hundai or Kia, then match their 100,000 mile
promise..... or do'em better!
Thru the back door, I have heard that some GM products were designed for a
300,000 mile life cycle....... like the old "B" body cars & drivetrains for squad cars and taxis.
Why not let the public in on that, and back it up with a warranty to match!

Stop saying, "me too!"!!!!

And lastly, when you get a winner, like the HHR, make sure that you can deliver,
and don't allow dealers to prostitute your desired models.

Years ago, when VW beetles were very popular, and hard to come by, any dealer
caught hiking prices or doing "packs", lost their franchise! I saw this happen in Chicago years ago.
GM needs to get honest with the public, even if their dealers don't want to!
The corporation is not doing direct sales, but thru dealerships. If the dealerships
are only giving lip service, and not following corporate policy, get rid of them!!!
AND enforce what you tell the public.
If you want people to believe in you, you have to believe in yourself! :AH-HA_wink:

[evok]

You mean we STILL have Pre-Lutz vehicles in the pipeline? NO Flippin' Way! No wonder what we see in concept form is never what we get production. Man, the GMT-360's if made today instead of delayed were out people would be singing a far different tune.

If this is right and there are still Pre-Lutz GM vehicles that have yet to be released kick me between the legs now because that's moronic.

[post="67937"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I said in their fleet, not in development.

[rkmdogs]

After reading this last post, there's absolutely nothing I can present as evidence to even be considered rationally. I find your statements HARDLY being objective. You want to quote no-name mechanics, "people" you've talked with, and posts read in forums as PROOF that Japanese cars are perfect, and dismiss consistent evidence from companies that are in business to monitor this. That's fine. That's fine... then by those standards I'm just as reliable as your resources.

Believe what you want and dismiss JDP and other resources that come out annually that have been noting that GM's quality is increasing and that the "reliability gap" is gone...
And your objective proof in this statement? I can't find ANY long term reliability information to back this up, but you've adopted it as gospel yet you can't accept GM builds equally reliable vehicles when there are reports that conclude that.

[post="67931"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

VenSeattle,
Like I said in another post, the Oriental car makers back up their vehicles with
long-term warranties. They publish this information!
Do they honor them? I don't know because I won't buy one! I am a very firm believer in keeping jobs for Americans to keep this country great.

Selling off jobs to foreign countries is like selling your seed-corn. Pretty soon you
have nothing left to plant, and you starve to death!
One of GM's problems is their look to the East and all the wooing that they have
done to the Chinese.
If you play the game of politics, one day it will bite you in the ass, especially
from people whose policy is to constantly lie to the world!

GM reliability? I have had 3 Astro vans with the 4.3L V-6. The first, a 1988 is
still going with 313,000 miles on it! The second, a 1995 was sold with 187,000
miles on it! My current one, a 2000, has 95,000 miles on it.
The secret? Preventative maintainence! This is a policy that is foreign to most
American car owners because they have no mechanical knowledge and cannot
appreciate that machinery needs maintainence.
How many times have you heard some lunk-head nerd "brag" about not having
changed his oil in a year, "and my car is still going fine."
The average American driver doesn't even know what they are looking at,
if they even know how to open the hood of their vehicle.
Years ago, when car ownership was a thing of pride and social status, the owners
took pride in having knowledge about their cars, and would rattle off technical data about their pride and joy at the slightest prompt. Today the attitude of
most car owners is that the car is in the same category as their toothbrush!
See the dentist, or mechanic twice a year is enough.
How many people do you know today, who own cars, and say that they enjoy
driving? They are the minority! So proper maintainence of the cars follow a
"only when it stops" mentality.
Many surveys for years said that American cars were the most reliable machinery
in the world, when neglected the way American drivers practice.
I can recall many stories of "locked-up" or "frozen" engines on foreign cars, when
they were subjected to the same neglected maintainence by American drivers.
We are unique in the world of car owners, for our disrespect of the machinery that
we own and brag about.
That is the atmosphere that are car designers have to deal with!!!!
AND, I think that they do a pretty good job of it, with one hand tied behind their
backs!!
Think I'm wrong? Then just look at the "junk" that is being driven around today,
with the things that you can visually observe are "wrong" or broken.

In Japan, you literally have to rebuild the drivetrain of the car in a very short
lifespan, to get it "inspected" and licensed! That's why you can find so many
low-mileage engines for sale in CA.---- for Japanese cars!

How many cars have you seen here, with broken lights, cracked windshields, and
all sorts of dents and dings? You don't see the "smokers" like you used to, since
the pollution-police has come into reality. But, how many brake-squealers have you heard lately? They don't check them-- yet..... And in places where they do,
a ten-dollar bill on the seat gets you a "pass".

[CARBIZ]

Rkm, that brings up another very interesting point: Does the perception of a car being a better car make the reality? I have seen people shop the Corolla and Civic, then come back and buy the Cavalier. Why? Because it was cheaper. Does this person then drive the crap out of it, never wash it, never do oil changes, etc. because - in his mind, it is a cheaper car? I have seen import buyers justify thousands of dollars in maintenance (the wonderful HOnda timing belt/water pump scam, for example) because it is a, well, a Honda! It is common knowledge that both Honda and Toyota are STRICT with their maintenance schedules; whereas GM has never insisted the vehicle is returned to the dealer for routine maintenace. Due to the nature of silent recalls and "service bulletins," I guarantee you that part of the reason Toyota's enjoy such a sterling reputation is because the dealer sees it more often! Another illustration of this point would be to look at older cars within the GM family itself. If you look at a late 80's Century versus a mid-80s Celebrity, I warrant that you will find more Centuries on the road than the Chevy. Were they better built? Did they have better sheet metal? No. They were treated better by their older and more affluent owners. How man '65 Impalas are on the road versus '65 Chevy wagons? Same car, but the wagons were used and abused. And long warranties are a double edged sword: I have had customers remark that the Hyundai long warranty is NEEDED, not a show of confidence.

[sciguy_0504]

All cars need routine maintenance.

[bring_BUICK_back]

It is very simple. GM does not design cars that make you want to go oooh. As a Buick fan I have seen many concepts come out that should of been made. GM has done a terrible job when it comes to product lineup. They do not know how to differentiate a car so that a Buick doesn't look like a Chevy. And I am sick and tired of hearing about Camaro. "F" the Camaro Chevy does not need any more product. They need less. Give Buick, Pontiac the models and get rid of Saturn, Hummer, Opel, Holden, Saab BRING BACK THE RIV, ELECTRA, CENTURY, REGAL

[97regalGS]

It is very simple. GM does not design cars that make you want to go oooh.  As  a Buick fan I have seen many concepts come out that should of been made.  GM has done a terrible job when it comes to product lineup.  They do not know how to differentiate a car so that a Buick doesn't look like a Chevy.  And I am sick and tired of hearing about Camaro.  "F" the Camaro Chevy does not need any more product.  They need less.  Give Buick, Pontiac the models and get rid of Saturn, Hummer, Opel, Holden, Saab
BRING BACK THE RIV, ELECTRA, CENTURY, REGAL

[post="68551"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

interesting strategy. screw any good PR from a Camaro, kill the only brand that GM has a shot at using against Honda/Toyota and walk away from the Australian and German/European market to focus on the American market where costs are high, financials are weak and public perception sucks. i think we've found a replacement of Wagoner!

[bring_BUICK_back]

interesting strategy.  screw any good PR from a Camaro, kill the only brand that GM has a shot at using against Honda/Toyota and walk away from the Australian and German/European market to focus on the American market where costs are high, financials are weak and public perception sucks.  i think we've found a replacement of Wagoner!

[post="68554"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

First off GM would not be in the postition they are in if they knew how to better manage their divisons. They have starved Buick of product. Of course Chevrolet and Cadilac are popular because GM has been giving them attention. If Buick was givien half of what Chevy was given then maybe Buick would be in a better postion then they are.

[97regalGS]

First off GM would not be in the postition they are in if they knew how to better manage their divisons.  They have starved Buick of product.  Of course Chevrolet and Cadilac are popular because GM has been giving them attention.  If Buick was givien half of what Chevy was given then maybe Buick would be in a better postion then they are.

[post="68640"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

true, but, what does Holden and Opel have to do with that?

[Guest flowmotion]

I registered to represent those folks who would never buy a GM, primarily due to the terrible garbage they were putting out 20-25 years ago. They screwed a lot of people I know, and since then have given me no reason to change my mind about them. In the meanwhile, I owned a 87 Honda Accord that had a problem-free 250,000 miles until it was smashed, and a Passat that's also been a great car. Yeah, the Accord was comparatively a simple car, with manual seats, carberated engine, and no ABS etc, but IMO the quality of the dashboard and switches of that old jalopy beats the brand new GM stuff. I know the Passat has dubious reliability reputation, but I dunno if GM even makes a car that you could compare the interior/exterior with a straight face. I can accept that GM has fixed their reliability problems, but they've given me no incentive take their new stuff seriously. I've been in a ton of their rentals, and the interiors are tacky, the engines are buzzy, and I find Pontiac's styling extremely low-brow. (OTOH, I took a Grand Prix up Hwy 1 and when I wasn't puking at the chincy console, it was a great driver. Really fun. First positive GM experience in a long time. ) GM has been saying that "We've fixed our reliability problems! Buy American!" for decades now without being able to back it up. They have no credibility with the consumer. Now that they've fixed the problems, it's going to take a long time to repair their reputation. And looking and feeling cheap sure isn't the way to do it. Meanwhile, I see GM's marketing, and it's total garbage. You look at a car like the Ford Fusion. The reviews put it in the same league as the imports. Looks different. The advertisements hit directly towards Accord / Camry buyers. As well they should -- Camry is #1 and Accord #2. If I was in the market, I'd check it out. Compare that to Chevy Impala -- advertised towards Chevy buyers. Pontiac G6 -- advertised toward Pontiac buyers. Mediocre reviews. I don't need nor want a V8 sedan. Every Pontiac looks just like every other Pontiac due to some stupid internal GM logic. It's almost like GM is telling people "Hey we know we can't compete with Toyota/Honda, so don't bother. See ya at Avis." GM plastered the subway station with big adverts for the "GM Experience". It's not like we didn't know all their cars come from the same factories, but I have no idea why they would want to stick it in people's faces. People don't buy "GMs", they buy Chevys and Cadillacs. Furthermore, I think the average Joe does NOT know that Hummer and Saab are GM, so putting them on the same poster as a Buick just seems dumb. GM runs newspaper ads with identical Chevy and GMC pickups on the same page and a $500 price difference. Really makes you want to head down to the GMC dealer. What are these people thinking? Finally, out here in California, the GM Car is basically extinct, except at the very low end and Cadillacs. You see a GM midsize or large car driving around, and you can bet there's a rental barcode on it. A couple years ago I was in the midwest and saw a Pontiac Bonneville for the first time in a decade. Look around here and it's Toyota-VW-Toyota-BMW-Honda-BMW-Honda-VW-BMW-Toyota. Now I'm not shallow enough to claim that would affect my decisions, but you can bet that a lot of people don't want to be the only guy on the block driving a Chevy. I almost don't blame them for giving the cars away with employee pricing -- they've got to get the things on the road so people know they still exist. Unfortunately for GM, they're probably going to have to wait until people like me die off before we ever darken the door of their showrooms -- and I don't think they can afford to wait it out for 30-40 years. Either that or they are going to need to do a 180 product-wise, and maybe in 10 years people like me will come around. But, I'm not sure if they can afford to wait for even 10 years. Now, I fully expect to be called a "hater" or "biased" or whatever. Fine. They deserve to go to hell for the 82 Olds Omega alone. :lol: Sorry about the rant -- I'm trying to be open minded here. But the bottomline is that my sort of attitudes are predominate on the coasts, and spreading to the heartland. GM desperately needs a shock treatment on their image, and what they've done is either half-measures or stuff that seems totally counter-productive. What would I do? + Don't sell a car unless it's competitive. Stop selling the ones that aren't immediately. Your rentalmobiles just cost you sales. Every single car should target an import. The Accord and Camry are a company problem, not a Saturn problem. + Either figure out what to do with your brand names, or kill them. Stop making Buicks for the sake of Buick, Pontiacs for the sake of Pontiac. Forget this "GM Experience" crap. Toyota doesn't need a special Grandpa division or Red Paint division or 4 identical minivans, so why do you? + Styling. When you are shrinking, you can't afford to be a boring member of the crowd.

[The O.C.]

I registered to represent those folks who would never buy a GM, primarily due to the terrible garbage they were putting out 20-25 years ago. They screwed a lot of people I know, and since then have given me no reason to change my mind about them.

In the meanwhile, I owned a 87 Honda Accord that had a problem-free 250,000 miles until it was smashed, and a Passat that's also been a great car. Yeah, the Accord was comparatively a simple car, with manual seats, carberated engine, and no ABS etc, but IMO the quality of the dashboard and switches of that old jalopy beats the brand new GM stuff. I know the Passat has dubious reliability reputation, but I dunno if GM even makes a car that you could compare the interior/exterior with a straight face.

I can accept that GM has fixed their reliability problems, but they've given me no incentive take their new stuff seriously. I've been in a ton of their rentals, and the interiors are tacky, the engines are buzzy, and I find Pontiac's styling extremely low-brow. (OTOH, I took a Grand Prix up Hwy 1 and when I wasn't puking at the chincy console, it was a great driver. Really fun. First positive GM experience in a long time. )

GM has been saying that "We've fixed our reliability problems! Buy American!" for decades now without being able to back it up. They have no credibility with the consumer. Now that they've fixed the problems, it's going to take a long time to repair their reputation. And looking and feeling cheap sure isn't the way to do it.

Meanwhile, I see GM's marketing, and it's total garbage. You look at a car like the Ford Fusion. The reviews put it in the same league as the imports. Looks different. The advertisements hit directly towards Accord / Camry buyers. As well they should -- Camry is #1 and Accord #2. If I was in the market, I'd check it out.

Compare that to Chevy Impala -- advertised towards Chevy buyers. Pontiac G6 -- advertised toward Pontiac buyers. Mediocre reviews. I don't need nor want a V8 sedan. Every Pontiac looks just like every other Pontiac due to some stupid internal GM logic. It's almost like GM is telling people "Hey we know we can't compete with Toyota/Honda, so don't bother. See ya at Avis."

GM plastered the subway station with big adverts for the "GM Experience". It's not like we didn't know all their cars come from the same factories, but I have no idea why they would want to stick it in people's faces. People don't buy "GMs", they buy Chevys and Cadillacs. Furthermore, I think the average Joe does NOT know that Hummer and Saab are GM, so putting them on the same poster as a Buick just seems dumb. GM runs newspaper ads with identical Chevy and GMC pickups on the same page and a $500 price difference. Really makes you want to head down to the GMC dealer. What are these people thinking?

Finally, out here in California, the GM Car is basically extinct, except at the very low end and Cadillacs. You see a GM midsize or large car driving around, and you can bet there's a rental barcode on it. A couple years ago I was in the midwest and saw a Pontiac Bonneville for the first time in a decade. Look around here and it's Toyota-VW-Toyota-BMW-Honda-BMW-Honda-VW-BMW-Toyota. Now I'm not shallow enough to claim that would affect my decisions, but you can bet that a lot of people don't want to be the only guy on the block driving a Chevy. I almost don't blame them for giving the cars away with employee pricing -- they've got to get the things on the road so people know they still exist.

Unfortunately for GM, they're probably going to have to wait until people like me die off before we ever darken the door of their showrooms -- and I don't think they can afford to wait it out for 30-40 years. Either that or they are going to need to do a 180 product-wise, and maybe in 10 years people like me will come around. But, I'm not sure if they can afford to wait for even 10 years.

Now, I fully expect to be called a "hater" or "biased" or whatever. Fine. They deserve to go to hell for the 82 Olds Omega alone.  :lol:  Sorry about the rant -- I'm trying to be open minded here. But the bottomline is that my sort of attitudes are predominate on the coasts, and spreading to the heartland. GM desperately needs a shock treatment on their image, and what they've done is either half-measures or stuff that seems totally counter-productive. What would I do?

+ Don't sell a car unless it's competitive. Stop selling the ones that aren't immediately. Your rentalmobiles just cost you sales. Every single car should target an import. The Accord and Camry are a company problem, not a Saturn problem.

+ Either figure out what to do with your brand names, or kill them. Stop making Buicks for the sake of Buick, Pontiacs for the sake of Pontiac. Forget this "GM Experience" crap. Toyota doesn't need a special Grandpa division or Red Paint division or 4 identical minivans, so why do you?

+ Styling. When you are shrinking, you can't afford to be a boring member of the crowd.

[post="70221"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You know.....I'm sure there are plenty of people on here ready to bash this guy up and down....

BUT I think his post is one of the BEST ones (focusing on GM's CORE problem) I've read in a long, long time.

His opinions are SPOT on and acurately spell out the challenge that GM has ahead of them.

NOW.....I wonder if he would consider the new Enclave? B)

[Guest flowmotion]

Thx O.C. Buick Enclave -- Typical for GM, it's a copy of the Lexus crossover from 5 years ago. And I think pretty the same thing as I do about the Lexus -- it's a gussed-up minivan. I don't want to drive a minivan. And while the Interior looks nice, I would like to see the real version, not the video game computer model posted here. Plus, I can't really imagine driving a Buick until I'm 70 years old, but that's my issue. Maybe if Saturn gets a version.

[rkmdogs]

Thx O.C.

Buick Enclave -- Typical for GM, it's a copy of the Lexus crossover from 5 years ago. And I think pretty the same thing as I do about the Lexus -- it's a gussed-up minivan. I don't want to drive a minivan.

Plus, I can't really imagine driving a Buick until I'm 70 years old, but that's my issue. Maybe if Saturn gets a version.

[post="72187"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There is an old expression flowmotion that opinions are like assholes, everybody
has one! And while yours is very critical of the products and expresses very
elequently your extreme bias, consider this point.
Do you work in the U.S. auto industry? Well one out of every 7 employed people
do work either directly or indirectly in this industry.
Are you a foreign national, whose income is subsidized by your government?
Well if you are not, where are you going to find a job and pay for your beloved
off-shore POS?
Remember where the profits go, not the token peon jobs that the foreign car
manufacturers try to hold up as proof that they have joined the American
economy. How much U.S. taxes do they pay?
Then try to eat your rice-paper hot-rod!
You West-coast people are so blind about what is happening to this country and
its' economy with your love of off-shore products, it makes me sick.
When the illegals out there start a revolution to take back your State, as an independent -Spanish speaking country, where will you pick a side?
Wake up!!!!

[evok]

There is an old expression flowmotion that opinions are like assholes, everybody
has one! And while yours is very critical of the products and expresses very
elequently your extreme bias, consider this point.
Do you work in the U.S. auto industry? Well one out of every 7 employed people
do work either directly or indirectly in this industry.
Are you a foreign national, whose income is subsidized by your government?
Well if you are not, where are you going to find a job and pay for your beloved
off-shore POS?
Remember where the profits go, not the token peon jobs that the foreign car
manufacturers try to hold up as proof that they have joined the American
economy. How much U.S. taxes do they pay?
Then try to eat your rice-paper hot-rod!
You West-coast people are so blind about what is happening to this country and
its' economy with your love of off-shore products, it makes me sick.
When the illegals out there start a revolution to take back your State, as an independent -Spanish speaking country, where will you pick a side?
Wake up!!!!

[post="72247"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No I think flowmotions thoughts are those expressed by the average person in the US. I applaud his honesty and his expression of the real perception issues that GM faces.

As for your direct comments to him, I will say nothing else.

[Guest flowmotion]

rkmdogs -- Your post just articulates the typical GM arrogance. Producing crappy cars for 30 years, with no defense except "What's good for GM is good for America!" You think after shrinking from 50% marketshare to 20%, they would have a better plan than trying to guilt people into buying their poorly-designed and poorly-marketed products. And hey, look GM's has done for the economy. They blame their gross financial ineptitude on their Union contract. They spun-off Delphi, knowing it would go titsup -- which IMO was just a pure Union-busting tactic. You think these guys are the defenders of the American worker? Pff. Edited January 12, 2006 by flowmotion

[razoredge]

Once again this is just your personal opinion of Domestic cars........which you place on ALL Domestic cars.....well good for you, but it is just your extreme bias bullshit opinion. There are more than a few million car buyers in this country that do not agree with you so shut up. Your opinions are not FACT ! Nor are the opinions of California all fact. You smell like someone brought in by our beloved California qlique.....were you referenced here to come a do a bit of stiring, trolling ?

No one here denys some of GM faults or mistakes but they were not all mistakes and all vehicals are not faulted, so anyone that posts so narrowly as yourself and a few others around here really needs to be disregarded. Which is what I have done until now that I see a little tag team starting up. Why dont the bunch of you get together and start a little we hate GM site and put your effort into that ? Just a thought, more fun to come here and do it......ey ?

Once again very little input from the resident "insider".........but at least we all know now " thoughts are those expressed by the average person in the US"..........how many cars does GMNA sell again ? Just slightly off from their best record years.......no ? Well at least you are OK with someone like this comming around and making a complete anti GM hate post based on alot of BS..how open minded........to bad your openmindedness has such short legs.

Excuse me while I change the channel, Im not in the mood to watch the California crowd as they go down on each other.

[evok]

Once again this is just your personal opinion of Domestic cars........which you place on ALL Domestic cars.....well good for you, but it is just your extreme bias bullshit opinion. There are more than a few million car buyers in this country that do not agree with you so shut up. Your opinions are not FACT ! Nor are the opinions of California all fact. You smell like someone brought in by our beloved California qlique.....were you referenced here to come a do a bit of stiring, trolling ?

No one here denys some of GM faults or mistakes but they were not all mistakes and all vehicals are not faulted, so anyone that posts so narrowly as yourself and a few others around here really needs to be disregarded. Which is what I have done until now that I see a little tag team starting up. Why dont the bunch of you get together and start a little we hate GM site and put your effort into that ? Just a thought, more fun to come here and do it......ey ?

Once again very little input from the resident "insider".........but at least we all know now " thoughts are those expressed by the average person in the US"..........how many cars does GMNA sell again ? Just slightly off from their best record years.......no ? Well at least you are OK with someone like this comming around and making a complete anti GM hate post based on alot of BS..how open minded........to bad your openmindedness has such short legs.

Excuse me while I change the channel, Im not in the mood to watch the California crowd as they go down on each other.

[post="72740"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You want facts, look at the drop in GM's market share over the last 30 years.

There was a time when GM was infallible in the press just like Toyota is today. I wonder why that changed?

The facts are GM's car products with a few exceptions are irrelevant to the growth market in the US, that is unless it is the deal of the century.

GM has a long road ahead of them to regain consumer confidence.

And by the way, and I will say this publily, quit dragging me into you idiotic comments. I swear to god, that I have had enough with it.

[razoredge]

You want facts, look at the drop in GM's market share over the last 30 years. 

There was a time when GM was infallible in the press just like Toyota is today.  I wonder why that changed?

The facts are GM's car products with a few exceptions are irrelevant to the growth market in the US, that is unless it is the deal of the century.

GM has a long road ahead of them to regain consumer confidence.

And by the way, and I will say this publily, quit dragging me into you idiotic comments.  I swear to god, that I have had enough with it.

[post="72743"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sorry, Im not sure what was idiotic ? I thought I was tactful......something you have shown me rarely......perhaps you get what you give ? OK Ill leave you alone, I see you can dish but not eat. If Id seen more input, less personal attacks we would have never gone down this path.......sorry. I realize somehow I started this :rolleyes: We'll move on now OK ? Serious

Your first two paragraphs were very good and a far more appropriate way of looking at the problem than the page of GM sucks that was writtin by our recent troller.

However we all know GM nor any company can have 40% "market share" we have discussed this enough and its really something that need not be pointed out. The market is saturated with choices and desires. Also once again how many cars does GMNA sell ? Have we discussed GMs problems with car priceing and incentives ????? The GM buying public is trained to wait...just wait they will get cheaper. Maybe this pricing problem and some of the quality and perception problems will now begin to fade, this site is a good place to start...or we could continue to fill everyones brains with the GM sucks mentality......either way......carry on

[turbo200]

razor, you tainted this thread like you taint most posts with your mindless, unintelligible rants. You have no valid arguments against flowmotion's opinions except some mindless insults. you were being tactful? the school of tact you graduated in must have been the left behind school. you have proven yourself to be incapable of intelligent adult discourse and discussion and yet to continue degrading yourself. you should try accepting other's opinions for what they are and not dragging people through the mud because it doesn't fit your view of the world.

[Guest flowmotion]

Once again this is just your personal opinion of Domestic cars........which you place on ALL Domestic cars....

Didn't I say I'd shop for a Fusion? If you aren't going to read the post, don't bother.

Edit: Also what is it with you guys and this "opinions are not facts" business. Duh. Nobody goes and buys a new car based on "facts" .. the depreciation alone makes it irrational. Edited January 13, 2006 by flowmotion

[razoredge]

razor, you tainted this thread like you taint most posts with your mindless, unintelligible rants. You have no valid arguments against flowmotion's opinions except some mindless insults. you were being tactful? the school of tact you graduated in must have been the left behind school. you have proven yourself to be incapable of intelligent adult discourse and discussion and yet to continue degrading yourself. you should try accepting other's opinions for what they are and not dragging people through the mud because it doesn't fit your view of the world.

[post="73068"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

wanna explain what your talking about....if you can ? Please be sure to respond in direct connection to actual statements I have made so as to prove your point not just continue to drag out some fiction and throw insults around.
I have plenty of valid arguements against any claims that GM made nothing but junk for 30 years. Seems you all are the ones having the hard time proving any maturity or reason to your continous nonstop degradation of GM products and anyone that stands up for them and stands their ground. Hell continous throwing of insults is absolutely mindless, desperate and reeks of direct magazine qoutes. Then theres the little tag teams the Cali crowd always regresses to. Now ya wanna tell me about mindless, unintelligible nonsence ? I actually enjoy the desperation your post has shown, just attack your perceived view of my "education", amusing :rolleyes: . What do you really have ? Opinions you want everyone to believe is fact. Opinions you want carved in stone. Check around.

[CARBIZ]

Wow - ladies, I thought I was sensitive! We all agree GM has problems - you should hear what my therapist says about me! LOL Razor, you have pointed out one thing which I believe needs emphasis. GM has always sold around 4-5 million units in North America. Obviously, however, what has happened is that GM used to do that in a time when the American market was only 10 or 11 million units. Now, the market is up in the 17 million range and GM is still selling nearly the same actual number of vehicles. Anyone who is in their (ahem) 40s or older will remember a time when Datsun, Toyota, etc. were a joke. Even VW was only bought by hippies or people down on their luck. That clearly is not the case any more. Most of the imports build decent, even desireable products. Against this backdrop, it is impossible for GM to hold onto 40%. I think it is safe to say North America is going to become like Europe and South America where no one manufacturer holds onto more than 15%. I would hope GM can hold its share at 20%, but I am not holding my breath. If this comes to pass, GM will have to pool its international resources and start building more universal vehicles like Toyota already does. A Corolla is a Corolla the world over. A Cobalt is not a Cobalt; infact, Chevy barely exists in Europe. This GM must address. If GM can hold onto 20% of a 20 million North American market, well, the end result is all the same - as long as Toyota doesn't get more than 15%, I would be happy.

[evok]

  We all agree GM has problems - you should hear what my therapist says about me!  LO GM has always sold around 4-5 million units in North America.  Obviously, however, what has happened is that GM used to do that in a time when the American market was only 10 or 11 million units.  Now, the market is up in the 17 million range and GM is still selling nearly the same actual number of vehicles.

GM US Sales:

1980: 5.1 mill Market Share: 44.7%
1985: 6.1 mill 40%
1990: 5.0 mill 35%
1995: 4.9 mill 33%
2000: 4.9 mill 28%
2005: 4.5 mill 26.5%

I think it is safe to say North America is going to become like Europe and South America where no one manufacturer holds onto more than 15%.  I would hope GM can hold its share at 20%, but I am not holding my breath.

Possibly in the distant future. But not in the near term.

If this comes to pass, GM will have to pool its international resources and start building more universal vehicles like Toyota already does.  A Corolla is a Corolla the world over.  A Cobalt is not a Cobalt; infact, Chevy barely exists in Europe.  This GM must address.

That is not a true statment. Mainstream manufacturers build vehicles for specific markets. Your example used to hold true but since the 1980's the Japanese have been designing vehicles that are unique to NA for their volume products. The European Accord is an Acura in the US.

For your Corolla example:

www.toyota-europe.com

Though you will see more of OEMs cross marketing vehicles as niche products. Such as Toyota and the Scions, GM and Saturn/Opels etc.

GM is addressing the issue you raise in a more rational approach of global platform usage and global commodity sharing.

If GM can hold onto 20% of a 20 million North American market, well, the end result is all the same - as long as Toyota doesn't get more than 15%, I would be happy.

The US market is reaching saturation level. Barring any unexpect economic problems, the US market should remain around the 16.5 - 17 mill levels for the near term. Based upon GMs product plans, any increase in Toyotas levels should come at other OEMs expense. The market has leveled for the not to distant future. Edited January 13, 2006 by evok

[razoredge]

Wow 1.6 million lost sales since 85, that is not good. How come some of those news articals posted were saying GM had its 2nd or 3rd? largest sales year last year ? Maybe that was global ? What is the breakdown per year from 85 -90 or tell me where to go look - please. It appears this was possibly partly a huge rejection of the large FWD GM's between 85-90, which is to bad because they were the best cars GM made at that time. I know its off topic sort of, but I find it interesting to see when the changes took place and 85-90 was a large sales drop. I wouldnt look at domestics back then but that was perception, I had no idea the big BOP cars were getting 20-25 mpg, nor that they were finally capable of 150,000+ mostly trouble free miles.

[rkmdogs]

This quality argument could last as long as the hundred-years war! There is one other very important fact you are all ignoring. In fact, down here by me, they just had a TV feature special on it. That fact is, as a whole, the actual car buying populace is getting older! This site caters to the car enthusiast, but the general populace couldn't care less--- they want comfort. And to them, that perception changes as their bodies change with age. The TV special acknowledged that the only manufacturer who has addressed this factor is Ford---- with their new designs. The 500 and the Fusion are being made taller, with larger acess openings, for people who can't bend and flex as they did 10 years ago. Their seats are more upright and they have multi-levels from front to back for visibility. Chrysler blew it in their new look, with tank-slit windows, and openings almost as bad as the ol' pony cars! The TV show went on about the "baby-boomers" getting older but being the affluent ones who have the ready resources, good credit and best buying habits, instead of the old "youth" crowd that the manufacturers used to cater to with their best offerings. That market is shrinking in this country. GM needs to wake up and realize that the ol' fuddy-duddy Buick-buyers now represent the majority of the new car buyers. The kids buy clunkers, used cars, or back-door cheapies, like the Scion. Hm-m-m, maybe that's why Toyota created that niche, cause the young turks couldn't afford their mainline offerings.

[The O.C.]

GM needs to wake up and realize that the ol' fuddy-duddy Buick-buyers now
represent the majority of the new car buyers.

[post="78218"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But those "fuddy-duddy Buick buyers" are choosing Buick and GM less and less these days. Out here, Avalon, Camry, and even Accord are increasingly popular with the old-fart set.....

[CARBIZ]

Razor, two big things happened after 1985 to GM: the Ford Taurus and Acura. Oldsmobile outsold Ford a couple times in the mid-80s, then Olds' sales dropped, in no small part due to the fact that the Legend gave American car haters something to buy and still be snooty.

[rkmdogs]

Out here, Avalon, Camry, and even Accord are increasingly popular with the old-fart set.....

[post="79349"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, what can you expect ....... in that climate where the sun bakes your brain!

The West Coast has long been notorious for hating anything labeled U.S.A.!

The rest of the world is waking up from their nightmares!
But that still does not address the size, nor comfort issues. Like I said, this is
a very recent realization, that most of the car companies have not addressed,
except Ford, and they are beating the drum on these points.

[The O.C.]

Well, what can you expect ....... in that climate where the sun bakes your brain!

The West Coast has long been notorious for hating anything labeled U.S.A.!

[post="79523"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your statements are banter and make no sense at all........can you back up your claim about the West Coast being "long notorious" for "hating anything labeled U.S.A.?

Gee.....I live on the West Coast and drive TWO american cars.....!

[vt_hokie]

Perhaps ten years was taking it a bit too far. I will accept any test that can be verified. It's my experince that GM cars that I've driven with more than 70k miles, which has been limited experience, have not held up like Japanese cars can and do. The Japanese cars I've driven that have exceed the 100k mark are stellar in thier durablitiy and the way they've held up over the years.

My 1997 Saturn SL2 gave me 220,000 miles and was practically bulletproof until the last 20k miles or so (when I finally decided it wasn't worth pouring money into repairs).

Saturn proved that GM could embrace change and do things as well as the Japanese. But I always wondered if GM would screw up a good thing, and sure enough, it did. By killing every unique aspect of Saturn and turning it into just another division selling rebadged old school GM stuff, GM has ensured that I have purchased my last new Saturn vehicle, and quite possibly my last vehicle from General Motors.

Oh, and with its polymer body panels, my SL2 looked better than any Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla would have looked after 220,000 miles! Naturally, GM has decided to do away with those polymer body panels on future Saturns! Edited January 26, 2006 by vt_hokie

[I hope GMRULES again]

Quality is the most important thing. GM may have made tremendous improvements but they still have a lot more work to do. And when they have a major screw up like the intake gasket leak on 5 million 3.4 engines they should come clean and offer an extended warranty. I personnally know 7-8 people who've had this problem and they are pissed at GM. Just this week my friend at work found out his 97 Venture's motor is toast, $1500 bucks to fix it. The mechanic we went to told him he works on these motors all the time, intake manifold leaks,head gasket leaks, crappy Dexcool coolant etc. Do you think he's gonna buy another GM? Not gonna happen, he's junking it for a new Toyota. My brother in law blew the motor on his 99 GP because of the same problem,he drives a Honda now. The sad part is aside from the gasket problem the 3.4 is a great engine when it is properly serviced.If they had any brains they would of recalled this and offered to fix the problem or at least extend the warranty. Instead they just play dumb like nothings wrong.

[Kestrel]

With all due respect, all the "bragging" about GM/domestic success stories in the world isn't going to do a thing until everyone knows that they can go to a domestic dealer and: 1 - get a car that will run and run basically forever without minor failures in the first 3 years of daily use and without any major failures in the next 5 years after that. 2 - get treated well and honestly by their **dealers**, without the mechanics acting like screwdriver wielding baboons in their car and staff treating customers like plague ridden zombies if they have a warranty issue. 3 - designing cars that actually look and feel like they're made well, not made cheap. My family used to buy American 100% of the time, but too many screw jobs from the big three and their dealers made the imports a welcome island of relief. During the mid to late 90's I owned a Jeep Grand Cherokee, which wasn't too bad actually - but every time I took it to the dealer, either the mechanics tried to play some kind of game with me (I ended up stuck WALKING home 8miles once when the dealer wouldn't give me a ride home after they tried to jack a repair bill hundreds of dollars above the estimate), or I'd hear nothing but horror stories from all the other customers waiting for their cars - electrics going bad, transmissions falling apart over and over again, etc - I felt really lucky my Jeep was only going in for comparatively little things. I'm planning on giving the domestics another chance with my next car because I really want to get behind a GTO or Vette, but I'll be doing it half-expecting to end up with an unrealiable money pit supported/serviced by baboons and thieves.

[The O.C.]

With all due respect, all the "bragging" about GM/domestic success stories in the world isn't going to do a thing until everyone knows that they can go to a domestic dealer and:

1 - get a car that will run and run basically forever without minor failures in the first 3 years of daily use and without any major failures in the next 5 years after that.

2 - get treated well and honestly by their **dealers**, without the mechanics acting like screwdriver wielding baboons in their car and staff treating customers like plague ridden zombies if they have a warranty issue.

3 - designing cars that actually look and feel like they're made well, not made cheap.

My family used to buy American 100% of the time, but too many screw jobs from the big three and their dealers made the imports a welcome island of relief.

During the mid to late 90's I owned a Jeep Grand Cherokee, which wasn't too bad actually - but every time I took it to the dealer, either the mechanics tried to play some kind of game with me (I ended up stuck WALKING home 8miles once when the dealer wouldn't give me a ride home after they tried to jack a repair bill hundreds of dollars above the estimate), or I'd hear nothing but horror stories from all the other customers waiting for their cars - electrics going bad, transmissions falling apart over and over again, etc - I felt really lucky my Jeep was only going in for comparatively little things.

I'm planning on giving the domestics another chance with my next car because I really want to get behind a GTO or Vette, but I'll be doing it half-expecting to end up with an unrealiable money pit supported/serviced by baboons and thieves.

[post="94339"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I totally understand where you are coming from as there is a large majority of consumers out there that have the same perception you do.

In regards to reliability and durability, however, I must stress that GM for the most part makes cars that stand the test of time just as well as any other. Things really are different now than they were 10-20 years ago.

I DO, however, also agree that a good portion of the GM dealerships DO lack the kind of customer service that people expect....even when purchasing an inexpensive car (like a Cobalt.) My local Chevy dealer is a turd....unfortunately....as I found out when I had to take my '93 Blazer there for service. Also, trying to work a deal with them on getting a C6 was an absolute joke. Now that I HAVE a C6, I am NOT looking forward to going there for service. I will probably try another Chevy dealer (driving a much further distance) to see if I get any better treatment.

[trinacriabob]

I must stress that GM for the most part makes cars that stand the test of time just as well as any other.  Things really are different now than they were 10-20 years ago.

[post="94342"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There are still some quality control glitches but, for the most part, you are right. I can't believe how many mid 80s RWD Cutlasses, Regals, GPs are still on the road in addition to even more mid 80s FWD 98s, PAs and DeVilles...all of which look to be in good shape and running well (no smoke, no weird engine noises, etc. etc.).

I can be a pain in the ass, but I constantly run to C/R to see how our cars (GM) are faring in the "red dot" department. I want to see a lot of red dots, though not necessarily the type to be found on an Indian's forehead.

[turbo200]

I totally understand where you are coming from as there is a large majority of consumers out there that have the same perception you do.

In regards to reliability and durability, however, I must stress that GM for the most part makes cars that stand the test of time just as well as any other.  Things really are different now than they were 10-20 years ago.

I DO, however, also agree that a good portion of the GM dealerships DO lack the kind of customer service that people expect....even when purchasing an inexpensive car (like a Cobalt.)  My local Chevy dealer is a turd....unfortunately....as I found out when I had to take my '93 Blazer there for service.  Also, trying to work a deal with them on getting a C6 was an absolute joke.  Now that I HAVE a C6, I am NOT looking forward to going there for service.  I will probably try another Chevy dealer (driving a much further distance) to see if I get any better treatment.

[post="94342"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

OC, Newbiewar is in Puente Hills, how far is that from you?