So what is GM doing wrong?

[rusty1]

I tell you what they did wrong .They killed of Oldsmobile and spent a zillion dollars on Saturn. Oldsmobile its founding member company should of been its new car experimental developement company.Get some wizz kids in to develope a new propulsion system and blown the japs of the road. :pbjtime:

[ellives]

Do ya SEE any common thread here? Lack of quality service? Call GM and complain! Of course you're not going to get a lot of sympathy if you're gonna complain about the *price* of service but the quality should always be top notch. Remember GM is in the business of selling cars and more importantly making money.

I agree that service hasn't been quite there however in the past. Particularly those buying high end cars like me expect to be treated well but everyone coming in for service should be treated well. In the dealer's defense, service is not always a fun business. Customers are often rude and bitch about the cost of getting things repaired when they were probably to blame themselves by not doing scheduled maintenance.

I totally understand where you are coming from as there is a large majority of consumers out there that have the same perception you do.

In regards to reliability and durability, however, I must stress that GM for the most part makes cars that stand the test of time just as well as any other.  Things really are different now than they were 10-20 years ago.

I DO, however, also agree that a good portion of the GM dealerships DO lack the kind of customer service that people expect....even when purchasing an inexpensive car (like a Cobalt.)  My local Chevy dealer is a turd....unfortunately....as I found out when I had to take my '93 Blazer there for service.  Also, trying to work a deal with them on getting a C6 was an absolute joke.  Now that I HAVE a C6, I am NOT looking forward to going there for service.  I will probably try another Chevy dealer (driving a much further distance) to see if I get any better treatment.

[post="94342"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[ellives]

I'll have to read up on the "5 million 3.4 engines." I find it hard to believe this is a real defect and the government hasn't forced a recall.

I love seeing comments like "the mechanic we went to to him he works on these motors all the time." I'm very skeptical about them. Are these GM-certified mechanics or just shade tree mechanics that have been "doing it for years" which automatically makes the experts?

I know some of these and they're probably pretty good mechanics. They're not chemists. They're not mechanical engineers. They're mechanics paid to get a job done quickly. Often they don't follow the FSM when doing repairs and then bitch when things don't go well.

Take Dexcool for instance. It's been universally maligned by most mechanics that call themselves "experts." A lot also don't connect the fact that the Dexcool they've been exposed to has been in service longer than the expected interval but that's "GM's problem."

I've actually had discussions with mechanics I'm friends with about head gaskets they've replaced - wondering why they fail. The response I usually get is "they go all the time." My response to them: bullshit. Head gaskets will last forever if the engines are maintained and particularly if the coolant is kept fresh. This is particularly true down south where they don't worry about coolant freezing but don't realize that one of the 4 key characteristics of coolant is corrosion inhibitors. (They other 2 being heat transfer and not freezing and high boil point.) When they don't change the coolant at recommended intervals because "it doesn't freeze down here" they're just asking for a blown head gasket but that's "GM's problem."

The interesting thing to see will be when all these new Toyota and Honda owners get their cars up in miles and they too have failed head gaskets and so forth with they blame the manufacturer. GM's got a long way to go but they don't deserve a lot of the shit slinging that goes on either.

Quality is the most important thing. GM may have made tremendous improvements but they still have a lot more work to do. And when they have a major screw up like the intake gasket leak on 5 million 3.4 engines  they should come clean and offer an extended warranty. I personnally know 7-8 people who've had this problem and they are pissed at GM. Just this week my friend at work found out his 97 Venture's motor is toast, $1500 bucks to fix it. The mechanic we went to told him he works on these motors all the time, intake manifold leaks,head gasket leaks, crappy Dexcool coolant etc. Do you think he's gonna buy another GM? Not gonna happen, he's junking it for a new Toyota. My brother in law blew the motor on his 99 GP because of the same problem,he drives a Honda now. The sad part is aside from the gasket problem the 3.4 is a great engine when it is properly serviced.If they had any brains they would of recalled this and offered to fix the problem or at least extend the warranty. Instead they just play dumb like nothings wrong.

[post="80746"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[regfootball]

damn, i just read this topic header. i hadn't seen it before. wow, so how many hours you got?

[Domesticated]

GM is not doing anything wrong. Its the buyers of the world who are wrong. Blind loyalty or blind stupidity for not choosing a superior vehicle from the General. And until the world starts supporting our friends in Detroit, then the blame is going to continue to be on GM and not the real problem, the ones holding the payment books.

Smarten up Import humpers!

[Domesticated]

BTW, I don't see the option in the voting column. How come? Why put the blame on GM? Sounds like we are giving into the media hype that GM has problems when clearly they don't... except global support

[The O.C.]

GM is not doing anything wrong. Its the buyers of the world who are wrong. Blind loyalty or blind stupidity for not choosing a superior vehicle from the General. And until the world starts supporting our friends in Detroit, then the blame is going to continue to be on GM and not the real problem, the ones holding the payment books.

Smarten up Import humpers!

I see you are a relatively new poster on here.

First...welcome!

Second...if you spend some time researching many past threads, you'll see there are many of us (not all of us) on here that, while rabid GM fans ourselves, try to be realistic (in our honest opinions) of GM's many product blunders and market misreads over the last 25 years ago or so.

The fact of the matter is, there are very few current GM vehicles that are truly "superior" to the majority of the Japanese and European competition......superior that is to a vast number of the motoring, and purchasing, public.

The "ones holding the payment books" haven't been "swayed by the media" or "brainwashed by Toyota's massive PR juggernaut" or anything else like that. They've been doing on simple thing.......signaling their disapproval of GM's market direction and product development with their pocketbooks.

[Domesticated]

I see you are a relatively new poster on here.

First...welcome!

Second...if you spend some time researching many past threads, you'll see there are many of us (not all of us) on here that, while rabid GM fans ourselves, try to be realistic (in our honest opinions) of GM's many product blunders and market misreads over the last 25 years ago or so.

The fact of the matter is, there are very few current GM vehicles that are truly "superior" to the majority of the Japanese and European competition......superior that is to a vast number of the motoring, and purchasing, public.

The "ones holding the payment books" haven't been "swayed by the media" or "brainwashed by Toyota's massive PR juggernaut" or anything else like that.  They've been doing on simple thing.......signaling their disapproval of GM's market direction and product development with their pocketbooks.

Thanks for the welcome, I've been lurking for a while. As far as superior goes, I think there are plenty of GM offerings that beat the competition hands down. The whole Caddy lineup is a world beater, anyone would be foolish to buy a BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, Lexus without considering a Caddillac. The beautiful XLR is something none of those wussy brands could come close to matching. The V series should wipe the floor with these glorified Hyundai's. I really think the only reason the idiots are buying them in the first place is because of all the humping that goes on in the magazine world. I bet id C&D or MotorTrend didn't exist, these makes would have gone home on the same boat they came over with years ago.

The new GMT900's are going to lay waste to the rest of the SUV world. I predict that and with the successful launch shown, import lovong sheeple are going to one day wake up and realize they screwed up by not waiting for these to be released. They could have even gotten an awesome deal on the outgoing models if they were smart enough. That's OK, they'll realize it one day when all their friends and neighbors have gotten their new Escalade or Tahoe which will make their ML500 or MDX or Lexass RX or Range Rover or whatever look like a cheap tin can.

Without going into too much detail, I think these cars a far better in quality or performance than their cheapo competition

G6 (And Malibu) > TSX, Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, and the BlowMyWad 3-series or G35

Impala/Lacrosse/Grand Prix > Avalon, TL, Lexass ES, Lexass IS...mmm V8

Cobalt > Mazda 3, Civic, Corolla, and if my buddy smartened up the 3 series or C-class Mercedes would be junk compared to the awesome SS S/C Cobalt

Lucerne/DTS > E-class, RL, 5 series, Infiniti M jag S-type, Lexass LS430, GS

Corvette Z06 > everything it competes with

Equinox/Torrent/Saturn Vue (except the crap V6 Honda one) > Highlander, CRV, RAV4, Murano

Trailblazer/Envoy/Rainier > Pilot/MDX, Lexass RX330, 4 Runner, Pathfinder, X3

Saab 97x > X5, ML500, Cayenne, XC90,

Solstice/Sky > S2000, Miata (chick car), Boxster, Z4

There is more, but all the above are better than the competiotn in quality, performance and value and I think will prove to be more dependable and longer lasting than their cheap junk counterparts. If the import humping public would just wake up and realize this, we would be living in a far better world than we are now with all this cheap import crap littering our roads.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Domesticated

[Cory Wolfe]

Thanks for the welcome, I've been lurking for a while. As far as superior goes, I think there are plenty of GM offerings that beat the competition hands down. The whole Caddy lineup is a world beater, anyone would be foolish to buy a BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, Lexus without considering a Caddillac. The beautiful XLR is something none of those wussy brands could come close to matching. The V series should wipe the floor with these glorified Hyundai's. I really think the only reason the idiots are buying them in the first place is because of all the humping that goes on in the magazine world. I bet id C&D or MotorTrend didn't exist, these makes would have gone home on the same boat they came over with years ago.

The new GMT900's are going to lay waste to the rest of the SUV world. I predict that and with the successful launch shown, import lovong sheeple are going to one day wake up and realize they screwed up by not waiting for these to be released. They could have even gotten an awesome deal on the outgoing models if they were smart enough. That's OK, they'll realize it one day when all their friends and neighbors have gotten their new Escalade or Tahoe which will make their ML500 or MDX or Lexass RX or Range Rover or whatever look like a cheap tin can.

Alright... In case you don't know, I'm resident Pontiac fanatic here. Anyways, has anyone ever told you that you and the most biased GM humper there ever was? Wow... I think I killed brain cells reading your posts. No offense, but you are no better than the Import humpers you seem to despise. I'll try to respect your opinion, but damn...

I mean...

G6 (And Malibu) > TSX, Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, and the BlowMyWad 3-series or G35

Come on, now... they are barely competitive, let alone superier in any way. And that's excluding the 3-series and the G35. For those... what the hell are you smoking?

Impala/Lacrosse/Grand Prix > Avalon, TL, Lexass ES, Lexass IS...mmm V8

Don't be ridiculous... First off, only the LaCrosse could possibly compete with any of them. Second, the W-body is the worst platform GM produces right now. It was never a good platform in the first place. The Grand Prix GXP can only manage .82 Gs... Hell, the 99 Grand Am GT could pull .82 Gs. Does that not tell you something?

Cobalt > Mazda 3, Civic, Corolla, and if my buddy smartened up the 3 series or C-class Mercedes would be junk compared to the awesome SS S/C Cobalt

Okay... the Cobalt is somewhat competive, but the Mazda3 is a much better car.

Lucerne/DTS > E-class, RL, 5 series, Infiniti M jag S-type, Lexass LS430, GS

Wow... there are only two words that could possibly explain this: Domestic humper.

Corvette Z06 > everything it competes with

I'll give you this one.

Equinox/Torrent/Saturn Vue (except the crap V6 Honda one) > Highlander,  CRV, RAV4, Murano

Again, don't be ridiculous.

Trailblazer/Envoy/Rainier > Pilot/MDX, Lexass RX330, 4 Runner, Pathfinder, X3

Yet again, don't be ridiculous. Those don't even compete with each other... they are for different purposes. Apples to... not oranges, too close... but to peas. That's right, peas.

Saab 97x > X5, ML500, Cayenne, XC90,

:rotflmao: Oh my... Such a.. well, not domestic, but GM humper.

Solstice/Sky > S2000, Miata (chick car), Boxster, Z4

It depends. It really does...

[CARBIZ]

The trouble is, to the vast majority of the driving public and the uses they use their vehicles for, GM offers very competitive products at very competitive prices, but it is the blind media and CR humpers that tell these sheeple what they want to drive.

I mean, does 90% of the driving public even know what "pulling 82 G" even means, unless some stupid magazine says it is important? Using all measures that are important, such as ride, value, fuel mileage, comfort - then something like the Impala is very competitive against the likes of the Avalon, etc.

I mean, how would someone know or care that the W-body is the worst platform GM has, unless some engineering geek points it out?! If the car rides nice, is quiet, doesn't break down, and has a good a/c - that is what most people care about.

I had a friend spend a fortune to lease an Acura 3.2 a few years back. His insurance was obscene, it ran on premium gas, it was breaking him. I could have leased him an Intrigue GLS for $130 a month less! He didn't even know how many cylinders the car had, let alone the horsepower. Why did he lease it? Because he read somewhere it was a good car!

To 5% of the driving public, the G-force on a skid pad are important. This is where the car went off the rails - the media is dictating what is important because these features are important to THEM, not to buyers. I would warrant someone looking at a Corvette or CTS-V would be concerned about true performance; someone leasing a Grand Prix not so much.

This is where the challenge for GM lays: seizing the agenda back from the media. Should anyone care if Honda is a half point ahead of Chevrolet on the JD Powers quality index? What about Toyota lying about its horsepower numbers?

I could go on and on, but we have beaten to death the subject of media bias on other threads here..................

[Flybrian]

Speaking of eye-rollers...

Second, the W-body is the worst platform GM produces right now. It was never a good platform in the first place. The Grand Prix GXP can only manage .82 Gs... Hell, the 99 Grand Am GT could pull .82 Gs. Does that not tell you something?

He's gone, so why are you responding anyway? Man...

[Cory Wolfe]

Speaking of eye-rollers...

He's gone, so why are you responding anyway? Man...

Honestly... ask yourself, what is GM's worst platform. Whether you're a fan of W bodies or not, there is not one single platform GM has that could be considering worse than the W body.

Anyways, I did not know he was gone when I responded.

[Domesticated]

"Speaking of eye-rollers...

He's gone, so why are you responding anyway? Man..."

I get the feeling like I am not wanted here at C&G? Am I saying something wrong? Because I really believe that GM builds the best out there and it kills me to read topics like "What is GM doing wrong" so I responded. IMO, GM has done nothing wrong, is doing nothing wrong and I don't expect them to do anything wrong. Why?

I DON'T RELY ON MAGAZINES TO MAKE MY CHOICE! These guys have the American public so freaking brainwashed, it is sickening. I stand by my comparison post and I would think that a "GM fansite" would agree with me for the most part. I am getting the total opposite reaction though

Is this really a closet Import fansite instead? Oh well, take care guys, I'll check back now and then but I will refrain from posting from now on.

Just for the recordm so I get my point across:

Imports suck, Import buyers are brainwashed tools, Import suporters should be kicked out of the country along with the garbage they support. GM RULES, Always have, Always will, don't let some import humping ragazine tell you otherwise because they know zilch about what they are talking about. As far as this topic goes:

GM is doing nothing wrong, the people who choose inferior makes are the ones doing wrong. Take care C&G.

[bring_BUICK_back]

GM is doing a lot wrong

Lets just look how they are handling Buick. 2 cars with new names on old archetechure. 3 trucks new names old archetechure.

Brand Engineering! They have left Buick out in the cold. It GM's fault for how they are in this condition. They do not produce any designs that are shocking. They are just plain plain plain. They have too many cars in Chevy and not enough at Buick.

[Guest buickman]

You are soooooo right!

[Cory Wolfe]

"Speaking of eye-rollers...

He's gone, so why are you responding anyway? Man..."

I get the feeling like I am not wanted here at C&G? Am I saying something wrong? Because I really believe that GM builds the best out there and it kills me to read topics like "What is GM doing wrong" so I responded. IMO, GM has done nothing wrong, is doing nothing wrong and I don't expect them to do anything wrong. Why?

I DON'T RELY ON MAGAZINES TO MAKE MY CHOICE! These guys have the American public so freaking brainwashed, it is sickening. I stand by my comparison post and I would think that a "GM fansite" would agree with me for the most part. I am getting the total opposite reaction though 

Is this really a closet Import fansite instead? Oh well, take care guys, I'll check back now and then but I will refrain from posting from now on.

Just for the recordm so I get my point across:

Imports suck, Import buyers are brainwashed tools, Import suporters should be kicked out of the country along with the garbage they support. GM RULES, Always have, Always will, don't let some import humping ragazine tell you otherwise because they know zilch about what they are talking about. As far as this topic goes:

GM is doing nothing wrong, the people who choose inferior makes are the ones doing wrong. Take care C&G. 

If anyone is brainwashed, it's you. You see... C&G is "GM's Biggest Fans and Toughest Critics." We hold true to that. We don't ignore reality or give GM a break when they f@#k up. Yes, they f@#k up. Quite often, actually. They didn't get to where they are by being perfect. That wasn't the result of some evil agenda. GM created their own problems for the most part. Yes, they did. This is reality. Welcome to it. If you don't like it, you can stay in your little dream world for all I care. I'm not the one in denial or that has the chance to make poor purchasing decisions.

Secondly, I am a Pontiac fan. Always was and always will be regardless of what happens to it by GM's stupid decisions that they always make. Yes, it's true. GM has a history of f@#king Pontiac up. It's reality, live with it. I love Pontiac and I always intended to own Pontiac. GM's problems has changed that, however. My next vehicle probably won't be a Pontiac unless I happen upon an unpassable deal. But because GM smothered Pontiac with cladding, FWD, poor build quality, and terribly reliability... I'll have to go elsewhere for a reliable compact RWD coupe with a 4cyl and manual transmission. I don't blame myself. I blame GM. If it were up to me, I'd only own Pontiacs for the rest of my f@#king life. My fault? GM's fault.

Finally, this isn't going by what some magazine says... I go by reality. You should try it.

I hate mindless fools. I respect the passion for GM, but that is just f@#king ridiculous... I'm sorry for my language, btw. I can't help it when I start talking about one of my passions.

[Cadillacfan]

..... Getting.. back on topic.

I picked product overlap. Fortunately, it seems as though that issue is being taken care of, albeit very slowly. The minivans, the torrent, the upcoming G5, and all of GMC(light trucks) can go. What's the point of having a $55,000 Tahoe with Yukon badges when you can get an Escalade for just a little bit more?

GMC can survive but only as commercial.

[rkmdogs]

O.K. print Gestapo......

Vulgar profane language is now O.K., but a classic pic of Marilyn Monroe

was not....???????

Hm-m-m, makes one wonder what is going on..............

[Cory Wolfe]

Vulgar profane language? f@#k, I didn't mean to say f@#k so many f@#king times. I so f@#king sorry about that. How's that? The rule stands... nudity is not something you can post. Anything else? It's alright. Get over it and stop your f@#king whining. Oops, said it again. My bad...

[rkmdogs]

Vulgar profane language? f@#k, I didn't mean to say f@#k so many f@#king times. I so f@#king sorry about that. How's that? The rule stands... nudity is not something you can post. Anything else? It's alright. Get over it and stop your f@#king whining. Oops, said it again. My bad...

Confusis had an old saying, that the weaker the mind the stronger the language.

Grow up kid, who are you trying to impress, ......... your mother?

[Cory Wolfe]

No one, really... just making a point that fussing over language is silly, especially in saying that nudity is some how on the same level as it. Both are forms of censorship, which I am against, however. But being that language is by far the lesser of the two... and you just had to start whining about a minor incident that happened however long ago... Yeah. Again, I say get over it already. Words are about as harmless as... words. No words are special, IMO.

[Cory Wolfe]

Fun can only be fun if it's fair. Nude pictures are far worse than anything written. Period. It's more work safe as pictures are alot easier to see than writing on forum that's what? 12... 14 point font? I mean... Is just posting a link so hard to the pic so hard? Come on... Now stop whining. It's annoying and this arguement was over... how long ago? Yeah... that's what I thought.

[rkmdogs]

No one, really... just making a point that fussing over language is silly, Both are forms of censorship, which I am against, however. But being that language is by far the lesser of the two... Words are about as harmless as... words. No words are special, IMO.

Obviously you don't read much, or you would not say that about Hitlers "MeinKamph", or Maos' Red Book!

And let me know when you are going to yell. "Fire" in a theatre, so that I can

watch you tell the cops that words don't mean much!

Oh yeah, and tell it to those old boys who put it on parchment over 200 years ago,

...... It starts out, "when in the course of human events......"

You been watching too much kiddie TV, bv!

[Cory Wolfe]

Obviously you don't read much, or you would not say that about Hitlers "MeinKamph", or Maos' Red Book!

And let me know when you are going to yell. "Fire" in a theatre, so that I can

watch you tell the cops that words don't mean much!

Oh yeah, and tell it to those old boys who put it on parchment over 200 years ago,

...... It starts out, "when in the course of human events......"

You been watching too much kiddie TV, bv!

Heh... TV? I barely watch TV. Try again...

Anyways, I reiterate what I said. Words are harmless as words. Ever hear of the saying that starts out "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words..."? Yeah... I guess there's actually something to it. Besides... if someone chooses to take more offense to certain words... Be my guest, but one can't label me something because of one's own beliefs. I have my own beliefs, too. BTW, try examples that relate more next time. It might help you instead of hurt you for once... You never know.

[Cory Wolfe]

Since rkmdogs had beliefs, I suppose.

[rkmdogs]

Since rkmdogs had beliefs, I suppose.

Grow up, punk! Use you mouth for something besides your anal gases!

[Mr.Krinkle]

some would rather be hit with a stick or stone than suffer the lasting and damaging effects of words. the bruises that you cant see heal are the ones that will last longer.

so just end it already...tasteful is always subjective. just ask the supreme court.

[Cory Wolfe]

Grow up, punk! Use you mouth for something besides your anal gases!

You know... You're a funny guy. Hey, just remember, I'm not the one whining because nudity is so obviously not allowed. I mean... wow. C&G isn't a porn site. If you want to post nude pics of Marylin Monroe, find a forum that dabbles with porn, and post it there. Otherwise, stop whining already. You sound like my younger brother... he whines about everything. Kind of like you.

Also, if you don't like my selective use of words or how I like to see how far I can go with someone, especially when pushed into it, you can ignore me. Atleast that way you will hinder yourself inable to fill these forums with more whining nonsense... atleast when I innocently post. I predict this won't be the last time you whine about that incident, which happened with reason, over a month ago. You like to like to whine, you can't easily change that, quite obviously. I understand.

some would  rather be hit with a stick or stone than suffer the lasting and damaging effects of words.  the bruises that you cant see heal are the ones that will last longer. 

so just end it already...tasteful is always subjective.  just ask the supreme court.

There are many differences, though. Most of it is emotional with words.. and most of the harm comes when those words are from someone you acknowledge... either through love, hate, envy, desire... etc. Usually with the truth. They say the truth hurts the most. People hate to hear the truth... especially when told by someone that has some meaning to them. A random person you don't know telling you something you don't believe is true... or something that has no real meaning. No effect.

As far as tasteful, well, the Supreme Court doesn't reside at C&G. Here, the admins make up the Supreme Court and they say nudity is not allowed, especially compared with language, which in the entire 2.5 years I've been here, there has never been a note-worthy problem with, atleast when not used in abundance. My one post could be considered that, but it was done in jest to make a point.

That's just my take on it, however... but what do I know? I need to grow up, right rkmdogs?

Edited April 19, 2006 by blackviper8891

[Satty]

f@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassd

amn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bi

tchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellfu

ckassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn

&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitch

hellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhellf@#kassdamn&#036;h&#33;bitchhell

[bowtie_dude]

Wow...THIS thread has blown WAY off course, apparently.

[Croc]

Yea, so I'm gonna tell everyone to f@#k off right now. This is obnoxious. If the words BV uses offend you: grow a pair. BV: grow up. Not everything needs to be a personal little protest.

There? There.

Seriously.

[Cory Wolfe]

You do realize you're not going to get anywhere if you approach me in that way. I thought you knew that by know? If I am pushed, I push back harder. Remember, silly?

Besides, I'm not the one with the personal little protest, bringing up irrelevent instances of the past. This entire thing could have been avoided had it not been for that.

[Satty]

You do realize you're not going to get anywhere if you approach me in that way. I thought you knew that by know? If I am pushed, I push back harder. Remember, silly?

Besides, I'm not the one with the personal little protest, bringing up irrelevent instances of the past. This entire thing could have been avoided had it not been for that.

Spoken like a true 12 year old.

[Cory Wolfe]

Wow... you must know some pretty amazing 12 year olds. I don't.

[Satty]

I know some people who act like 12 year olds, and they sound exactly like you do.

[Cory Wolfe]

Well, once I start acting like a 12 year old, I'll call you. I know some 12 year olds... I'm glad I don't act like them. Again, you must know some pretty amazing 12 year olds to justify that claim.

[Bandit 1]

I think it's the lineup. They quit making the Camaro & T/A, that's a little of it. Some of their other cars just aren't what people are looking for I guess.

[parkerreid]

GM's legacy costs are killing their profit; but that isn't something they are really doing wrong per se.  The top two things that I believe they are doing wrong (in order), are:

1) Engineering cars for current competition.  Look no further than the G6, the Malibu, and the Impala: they were engineered to compete against the competition -- the competition back in 2000 -- when these models were first beginning to take form.  Look at the new Camry, the new Accord, and the new Civic -- all have digital dashes.  GM luxury models don't even get that appointment.  GM needs to accurately envision what the competition will be like in 5 years from today and then engineer & build a vehicle to compete against and beat it -- and then get that vehicle to market on time for it to compete (& succeed!).

2) Marketing.  To be succint: stop advertising the deal & start advertising the product.  You want your cars to sell on their own?  Start advertising the virtues of your cars.  Of course, it helps when your cars are generally competitive in all areas: power, mileage, quality (percieved and real), and most of all: style.

[parkerreid]

C Mattson, you are a genius...........

[GEESIXER]

The refinement is still lacking.  Vehicles need to feel more solid, not like you're settling for the budget buy.  For instance, the electric power steering may give you a fraction of mpg in better fuel economy, but the steering feel will not be as good as hydraulic steering.  The transmissions should be smoother.  GM used to have the best transmissions, but they've fallen behind the better 5 and 6-speeds.  Everything the driver touches should feel like high quality, not like sourced from the lowest bidder.  Cloth seats should not feel like burlap.  Turn signals should not make weird "bwop" sounds.

LET ME TRY AND SETTLE THIS NOW. I BOUGHT AN '06 COUPE G6 GT. IT HAS THE ELECTRIC POWER STEERING AND IT DOESNT FEEL ANY DIFFERENT THAN A NORMAL HYDRAULIC P/S. SECOND, THE CLOTH FEELS JUST AS GOOD AS ANY POS TOYOTA CLOTH. AND THIRD, THE REASON FOR THE "BWOP" NOISE WAS BECAUSE GM WENT TO A SOLID STATE TURN SIGNAL FLASHER THAT DIDNT MAKE ANY NOISE, THE CONSUMER COMPLAINED THAT IT DIDNT FEEL NORMAL SO GM MADE IT MAKE THAT NOISE SO THE CUSTOMER KNEW IT WAS STILL WORKING FINE.

TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT, I LOVE MY G6 AND WOULDNT TRADE IT FOR SOME CRAPPY HONDA IMPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CARBIZ]

GEESIXER, you're new here. We've beaten this subject to death.

It has already been established by the Enthusiasts (so appointed):

1) Electric steering is bad because you can't tell what flavour of asphalt you are driving on. You are supposed to haul on the wheel with both hands, dont' ya know? Forget about infinite boosts, no hydraulic hoses to burst or wear out, or still retaining power boost on engine stall - those things don't matter.

2) GM's 4 spd auto, although deemed by many to be the most reliable, smoothest and efficient tranny on the road, is automatically crap because now Toyota has a 6 spd - even if that 6 spd doesn't work all that often.

3) People want to make love to their dashboards, so we must have soft, feely plastics everywhere, even up under the seats where the springs are.

4) It isn't enough that GM pioneered OnStar, or that it tried to make ABS standard on every car it made, or that things like automatic headlights, retained accessory power, delayed locks and other USEFUL items that people actually USE have been on virtually all GM vehicles for several years - no, none of that matters. Instead, we will bitch about the lack of DVD navigation in a Cobalt or telescoping wheel on the Impala - those oversights are travesties!

And don't get me started on the old pushrod versus OHC debate, that can get you killed around here!

[The O.C.]

GEESIXER, you're new here.  We've beaten this subject to death. 

  It has already been established by the Enthusiasts (so appointed):

  1) Electric steering is bad because you can't tell what flavour of asphalt you are driving on.  You are supposed to haul on the wheel with both hands, dont' ya know?  Forget about infinite boosts, no hydraulic hoses to burst or wear out, or still retaining power boost on engine stall - those things don't matter.

  2) GM's 4 spd auto, although deemed by many to be the most reliable, smoothest and efficient tranny on the road, is automatically crap because now Toyota has a 6 spd - even if that 6 spd doesn't work all that often.

  3)  People want to make love to their dashboards, so we must have soft, feely plastics everywhere, even up under the seats where the springs are.

  4) It isn't enough that GM pioneered OnStar, or that it tried to make ABS standard on every car it made, or that things like automatic headlights, retained accessory power, delayed locks and other USEFUL items that people actually USE have been on virtually all GM vehicles for several years - no, none of that matters.  Instead, we will bitch about the lack of DVD navigation in a Cobalt or telescoping wheel on the Impala - those oversights are travesties!

  And don't get me started on the old pushrod versus OHC debate, that can get you killed around here!

CARBIZ, nice "spin" that you tried to put on what are very constructive arguments as to some of GM's product deficiencies many of us have presented on this website....

Let me try to re-set you to the straight and narrow.....

1) Electric steering.....GM's electric steering systems, most notably on the (non-GTP) G6 and Malibu are, in our honest opinions, way overboosted and with a not-confidence-inspiring vague and loose feeling at highway speeds (even with the firmness ratcheted up.) Oh, and plus....there's a total lack of road feel.....road feel...another subjective perception that when in good quantities, can add a whole layer of quality feel to an automobile.

2) GM's 4-speed auto IS reliable and smooth-shifting. However, the lack of additional ratios drops most GM engines out of the powerband when shifting from first to second because of the wider spread of ratios. A more "modern" 5 or 6 speed automatic would allow GM to keep the ratios closer, to keep the engine more on the "boil" during aggressive acceleration, and give you a higher top ratio (5th or 6th gear) for some additional highway fuel economy and noise reduction.

3) Soft, "feely" plastics on the dashboard can provide a welcome increase in the perception of the quality of the interior and the overall fit-and-finish. While the opinion of what constitues "quality" as far as dashboard materials go is an admittedly subjective opinion, many on here agree that GM is quite a few steps behind the imports (and even Ford) in this area.

4) No one on here that's been critical of GM has ever complained about the useful features that GM DOES provide in its vehicles. Those have always been welcome AND appreciated by people like myself. However, that doesn't mean we have to let them off the hook when they fail to provide those features that their competition IS providing and that consumers appear to be gravitating to.....(i.e...greater availability of Nav systems, xenon lights, tilt AND telescoping wheels, auto down AND up windows on all FOUR windows, a power recliner on a vehicle like the Lucerne, and so on.)

Just wanted to clarify your clouded comments........

[GEESIXER]

let me just ask. is there a web site for toyota and honda fans to complain about the things GM has but they dont. i just get tired of hearing that they dont do anything wrong. has anybody else heard about toyota's new camry having and intermediate steering shaft break and loosing control at highway speeds. that seems like a quality control issue if i have ever seen one!!!!!!!

[CARBIZ]

Geesixer, we've HEARD about Toyota's problems, but BusinessWeek has determined that it doesn't matter, that recalls are a strength for Toyota and that your steering shaft breaking is okay, even at highways speeds, because at least your steering isn't electric. You should get lots of road feel as your right front wheel comes off and your car rolls over! LOL

[01Malibu]

They keep platforms and body styles around too long without making major changes. But mostly STYLE, STYLE and STYLE! With the exception of the CTS, few cars from GM will get you excited. They need more HIGH volume cars that gets young people excited. A Solstice coupe would help. Avoid flops like Ion, Aztec, Uplander, etc. And go back to the old Buick names!

[longtooth]

GEESIXER, you're new here.  We've beaten this subject to death. 

  It has already been established by the Enthusiasts (so appointed):

  1) Electric steering is bad because you can't tell what flavour of asphalt you are driving on.  You are supposed to haul on the wheel with both hands, dont' ya know?  Forget about infinite boosts, no hydraulic hoses to burst or wear out, or still retaining power boost on engine stall - those things don't matter.

  2) GM's 4 spd auto, although deemed by many to be the most reliable, smoothest and efficient tranny on the road, is automatically crap because now Toyota has a 6 spd - even if that 6 spd doesn't work all that often.

  3)  People want to make love to their dashboards, so we must have soft, feely plastics everywhere, even up under the seats where the springs are.

  4) It isn't enough that GM pioneered OnStar, or that it tried to make ABS standard on every car it made, or that things like automatic headlights, retained accessory power, delayed locks and other USEFUL items that people actually USE have been on virtually all GM vehicles for several years - no, none of that matters.  Instead, we will bitch about the lack of DVD navigation in a Cobalt or telescoping wheel on the Impala - those oversights are travesties!

  And don't get me started on the old pushrod versus OHC debate, that can get you killed around here!

You are absolutely F@#ckin' right!

[forolio]

So what is GM doing wrong?

I have worked in automotive for 25 years as a supplier to GM, Honda, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota , Supplying diversified product lines with various companies.

automotive restraints, midsized stampings and structual weldments, greenhouse trim, rubber extrusions, and most recently, exterior plastic.

A huge area for improvement.

My opinion, GM does not listen to their supply base and treats them with disrespect, demands for cost reduction with little engineering support to implement new ideas.

Most suppliers will tell you that when dealing with the JOEMs the margins are smaller but you get better support and stability within engineering and purchasing. Launch , quality or delivery issues are handled as a team effort in attempting to resolve the issue and there is seldon the threat of pulling work or pitching one supplier against another.

The JOEMs are not big advocates of market tests, and wont pull a job for a few points in pricing variance.

So, I like the GM product, I buy the GM product, but I don't like the way GM interfaces with the Supply chain. The supply chain is a huge resource when you look at vehicle content outsourced, use them as an ally!

[GEESIXER]

Geesixer, we've HEARD about Toyota's problems, but BusinessWeek has determined that it doesn't matter, that recalls are a strength for Toyota and that your steering shaft breaking is okay, even at highways speeds, because at least your steering isn't electric.  You should get lots of road feel as your right front wheel comes off and your car rolls over! LOL

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I love it!!!

[Thunder7]

Two things they are doing wrong (and 1 of them, all manufactures are doing wrong).

1. Designs have been BORING! The latest ones are looking much better. The Camaro is a great start, and it seems most of the Saturn line looks like it may be pretty good. They have to stop being so BLAND!

2. This one, I think is what all manufactures need to think about, extend the warranties. With the price of the average family car in the $25k-$30k range minimum, that adds up to huge monthly payments that most are spreading out over 6 years now (some looking for more). Yet warranties are only 3 years for the most part. Those that are long are VERY limited. They need to start doing full 6 year warranties, then I think folks may start looking again. Having to add this one for another few thousand bucks is crazy. Show some more support of your product and people will flock to you sooner and more often.

[Thunder7]

Two things they are doing wrong (and 1 of them, all manufactures are doing wrong).

1.  Designs have been BORING!  The latest ones are looking much better.  The Camaro is a great start, and it seems most of the Saturn line looks like it may be pretty good.  They have to stop being so BLAND!

2.  This one, I think is what all manufactures need to think about, extend the warranties.  With the price of the average family car in the $25k-$30k range minimum, that adds up to huge monthly payments that most are spreading out over 6 years now (some looking for more).  Yet warranties are only 3 years for the most part.  Those that are long are VERY limited.  They need to start doing full 6 year warranties, then I think folks may start looking again.  Having to add this one for another few thousand bucks is crazy.  Show some more support of your product and people will flock to you sooner and more often.

187063[/snapback]

Nice to see they are actually considering it. They should. For the cost of the cars these days you need to show confidence in your products.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...pjhk&refer=home