LeMons-Who else here is nuts?

[A Horse With No Name]

Who here would like to get a GM car together for a run at LeMons?

It's the race for $500 beaters that was in the link with the MR2 racing the Buick.

Talking with people here that would like to possibly start a C and G team, let us know. Maybe we can actually get Oldsmoboi out from behind his computer and behind the wheel...

This thread is for any comments or ideas, no matter how crazy or unrealistic. We are just in the talking stages/dreaming stages now, BUT...we can make this a reality if we want to.

Thinking of perhaps running a J body Cavalier...but would be open to other choices. Although we may lose dave87rs as a forum member if the Cavalier is chosen for the People's Curse and destroyed! (just kidding Dave, know your love for Cavi's...)

Chris

[Z-06]

Just to give a heads up - we do not need any racing experience, nor we need any NASCAR-esque license. If the car is seized, we may end up paying about $1,000 at the most per person. We are looking for 5-6 members. The most important criteria is one can drive and sustain the heat of racing. On an average, it is an endurance race so going at max capacity is advantageous but not always beneficial. The driver will not drive more than 3 hours due to fatigue and possibly because of fueling. Usually a 3 hour jaunt twice by each driver for 4 drivers is an ideal way to race a 24 hours endurance. But given our lack of experience, time on the wheel will be less than that.

Other than that at least we can get together and have a blast. May be get to do some time drills before we actually take part in the competition.

Let us discuss this in details and see if we can get for some third party sponsors for this event.

[SAmadei]

Who here would like to get a GM car together for a run at LeMons?

I would, but probably could only do races east of the Mississippi.

This thread is for any comments or ideas, no matter how crazy or unrealistic. We are just in the talking stages/dreaming stages now, BUT...we can make this a reality if we want to.

Thinking of perhaps running a J body Cavalier...but would be open to other choices. Although we may lose dave87rs as a forum member if the Cavalier is chosen for the People's Curse and destroyed! (just kidding Dave, know your love for Cavi's...)

I haven't been over their complete rules and history, but my first thoughts on an interesting beater were to procure a J or N body and put a 3.8 liter supercharged drivetrain into the rear.... essentially a Fiero with better suspension. Be nice to make it a manual. Of course, I'm not married to the idea... but I'm sure most ideas here are going to have FWD vs RWD or small vs big controversy.

It seems that getting accepted it somewhat hard, and they recommend a "theme". Though a C&G theme is a good start, I would think a bit more of a gimmick might be needed.

Just to give a heads up - we do not need any racing experience, nor we need any NASCAR-esque license. If the car is seized, we may end up paying about $1,000 at the most per person. We are looking for 5-6 members. The most important criteria is one can drive and sustain the heat of racing. On an average, it is an endurance race so going at max capacity is advantageous but not always beneficial. The driver will not drive more than 3 hours due to fatigue and possibly because of fueling. Usually a 3 hour jaunt twice by each driver for 4 drivers is an ideal way to race a 24 hours endurance. But given our lack of experience, time on the wheel will be less than that.

While not the fittest person here, I can be very good endure-wise. Spent enough years driving around in overheated cars and trucks with the heater on during the worst part of the summer. Might be a good motivation to lose some weight.

What do mean by "if the car is seized"? I realize that the LeMons people reserve the right to destroy any car, so it seems to me that any resources put into the car are a write-off once a race is started.

Of course, then there are the other costs... a certified helmet and racesuit... I'm sure nobody really wants to share that stuff... even if we could... I've not gone out and purchased a helmet because its such a PITA to find one big enough for the large lump on my shoulders.

I'm thinking costs will more likely be closer to $2000 per participant considering travel, lodging, eating, racewear and safety equipment for the car, as quite a bit of car upgrades are in the name of safety.

[Z-06]

This is a good site to get some cheap and good accessories.

Chris can get a RV which we can use as our pit vehicle to reduce the cost of accommodations, etc. And since these races are in hotter climates, there is no better time than BBQing.

Yes we can definitely look into J or N bodies. Possibly an old F body would not hurt either. The sleeper will be a W body with some modifications to the suspension especially.

[ocnblu]

W-body 3800 FTW.

[Blake Noble]

Where does this take place at again?

I'd be more than happy to donate some spare time to finding a car to take 'round the course. Just tell me the budget.

[FAPTurbo]

Where does this take place at again?

I'd be more than happy to donate some spare time to finding a car to take 'round the course. Just tell me the budget.

Do you happen to still have a certain Firebird hanging around?

[Blake Noble]

Do you happen to still have a certain Firebird hanging around?

Why yes I do. The front clip's not all there, the doghouse is shot, and it has a broken tie rod end on the driver's side, but the engine did run after the wreck.

[daves87rs]

Sounds like fun...where is this?

[SAmadei]

Why yes I do. The front clip's not all there, the doghouse is shot, and it has a broken tie rod end on the driver's side, but the engine did run after the wreck.

Sounds like it could be a potential race car after a little work with the BF Hammer and some parts. Tie rods are easy to fix.

[SAmadei]

Where does this take place at again?

I'd be more than happy to donate some spare time to finding a car to take 'round the course. Just tell me the budget.

$500 + value of unnecessary parts removed and sold on eBay.

[SAmadei]

Sounds like fun...where is this?

Varies. There are 10 or so different races over the course of the year, most in the west. There is one in CT coming up.

[FAPTurbo]

Why yes I do. The front clip's not all there, the doghouse is shot, and it has a broken tie rod end on the driver's side, but the engine did run after the wreck.

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

[SAmadei]

Varies. There are 10 or so different races over the course of the year, most in the west. There is one in CT coming up.

I lied... not CT... seems they have changed the website recently to include 2010 dates...

http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/events/

[Blake Noble]

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

Race a lawnmower powered by gerbils?

[!!!TED!!!]

W-body 3800 FTW.

+1

Beat to $h! Regal GS with a good engine and suspension!

EDIT

Like this: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-c...QAdIdZ162200573

[A Horse With No Name]

If you guys are up for it, I think Z06 and I may also be. Glad to see a response.

Whiteknight, What do you want for the Bird?

Thinking a manual tranny car would be better but...

hmmm.

Chris

[SAmadei]

+1

Beat to $h! Regal GS with a good engine and suspension!

EDIT

Like this: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-c...QAdIdZ162200573

That does look like a good one. It'd be nice to find one supercharged, of course. Sucks, as I saw a beat but running supercharged Riv on CL a while back for a mere $500.

Looking at the cars that finished the recent race, and nobody had a 4th gen F-body, which tells me they are hard to squeeze under the $500 limit. Desiring light weight, RWD and the possibility of a stick, I wonder if an S10 is a possible candidate? They are cheap and with a 3800 or V8 engine swap are quick. Plus the suspension is G-body based.

66, yeah a manual would be better, of course this is an endurance race... all that shifting in the MR2 video looked like it got old after 3~4 hours. Guaranteed that Buick driver staying ahead of him for a while was not nearly breaking a sweat.

[SAmadei]

That does look like a good one. It'd be nice to find one supercharged, of course. Sucks, as I saw a beat but running supercharged Riv on CL a while back for a mere $500.

Found another SC'd Riv... $550: http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/cto/1423184555.html

[toesuf94]

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

NARF!!!!! This WOULD be fun...I have always wanted to do this.

[Robert Hall]

Akk...the first race is here. Maybe I could enter my sister's 500SEL. With all it's weight, I could shove anyone out of my way...

[Blake Noble]

Whiteknight, What do you want for the Bird?

Standard price is $500, but for C&G members, I'll reduce that to $350.

Just, please, get it out of my driveway.

[A Horse With No Name]

So...more thoughts please.

I am getting together with the VW TDI club, the MINI Club, the Buckeye Miata Club, and the SCCA guys this weekend. Am going to see if anyone else is interested.

What kind of car would you guys really like to run, and who is really interested???

PLEASE, let's keep the discussion going!

Chris

[Camino LS6]

<--- Is pondering the idea.

[daves87rs]

<--- Is pondering the idea.

+1

[Camino LS6]

A third-gen Fbod could be a winner...

[Intrepidation]

I'd love to participate. I've never been on a track before though...something I'm dying to do.

[SAmadei]

What kind of car would you guys really like to run, and who is really interested???

Put me down as extremely interested. I have the resources and ability to be a productive member of a team, but of course, it would be the scheduling and other details that might later turn out to be problematic, but I would obviously work to get out on a real racetrack.

[Camino LS6]

If it is a C&G car, it really needs to be GM.

I vote for a 305/5spd. 3rd gen F-bod.

[A Horse With No Name]

I have NO problem whatsoever with the car being GM. In terms of what will still be running at two in the ayem in the rain after we've beaten on it for ten hours, I'd honestly trust GM before I'd trust VW or BMW or Mazda. Simple crude and overbuilt can finish this race.

However...remember that this is a 24 hour race. The Michigan TDI VW guys run a VW only garage in Ann Arbor and pull people in from all over to get their vee dubs fixed. They raced a Sirroco in an event...it ran 4 hours and spun a main bearing. They put a spare motor in it and not that long later it ate the ECU and some wiring and put them out of the race.

So they ended up with about 6 hours of track time out of 24, but they had a great time.

So the #1 thing is a car that will run 24 hours under severe, severe conditions. a 305 V8 Camaro or Firebird would be a great choice. But remember, a heavier car like that will eat tires and be hard on brakes. So we need to take that into account.

Also...remember that this is not like driving on the freeway at 55 miles per hour. A V8 car in an SCCA endurance race will get 4-6 miles to the gallon, a V6 car will do about 6-9 miles per gallon, and a 4 cyl will be 10-11, 12 if you are lucky. If you run the full 24 hours at an average speed of say 70 miles per hour, your going to go 1700 miles.

I used to crew for an SCCA endurance racing team, and we averaged about 11-12 MPG with a 4 Cyl. It took every bit of 100 gallons plus for fuel for practice, qualifying, and racing to run a twelve hour race. Multiply that by two for a twenty four hour race and then figure half the fuel economy. If gas goes back up, be prepared to spend maybe a grand on fuel alone.

But I digress. Everyone that has done this says that I've talked to says that it is a ton of fun.

Let's keep talking about this.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I'd love to participate. I've never been on a track before though...something I'm dying to do.

This might be a good way for us to do this.

I am dying to get on track also...

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Put me down as extremely interested. I have the resources and ability to be a productive member of a team, but of course, it would be the scheduling and other details that might later turn out to be problematic, but I would obviously work to get out on a real racetrack.

We need to figure out how to organize the team. I can do logistical stuff and I have contacts in the racing world...but I lack the leadership ability to run a team or the ability to get an injured car back on track at four in the ayem.

Glad your interested.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

That does look like a good one. It'd be nice to find one supercharged, of course. Sucks, as I saw a beat but running supercharged Riv on CL a while back for a mere $500.

Looking at the cars that finished the recent race, and nobody had a 4th gen F-body, which tells me they are hard to squeeze under the $500 limit. Desiring light weight, RWD and the possibility of a stick, I wonder if an S10 is a possible candidate? They are cheap and with a 3800 or V8 engine swap are quick. Plus the suspension is G-body based.

66, yeah a manual would be better, of course this is an endurance race... all that shifting in the MR2 video looked like it got old after 3~4 hours. Guaranteed that Buick driver staying ahead of him for a while was not nearly breaking a sweat.

An S-10 is light in the rear, and they are easy to roll over in road racing. The SCCA had a class called ITT or Improved Touring Truck that was for small pick-em-ups like that. A few people still race them in the south, and the championship racing for the SCCA improved touring cars is at Road Atlanta in Georgia. A few show up their every year...mostly Nissan Hardbody trucks but a few S-10's have run in that class as well.

They are a handful to drive at speed, and we will have a bunch of guys who have never driven on track before.

As for the "getting old after 3 or 4 hours" thing...hmmm...thinking shorter driving shifts might be in order. Add to the problem of newbies racing will be racing at night...which freaks out even some guys who have raced for quite awhile.

Biggest problem with an autotrajic is that with a manual you can use the compression of the motor to slow the car down by downshifting. Thus the heat energy is dissipated out the exhaust and out through the radiator. Autotrajics get hot towing, much less racing for 24 hours.

As the old saying goes, to finish first, first you must finish.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Not GM, but...

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/1377752548.html

[Robert Hall]

A cheap, sporty GM--how about a Baretta or Grand Am? Avoid a Quad 4.. IIRC, a group from Car & Driver raced an Aurora a couple years ago in LeMons..

Edited October 17, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

Beretta crossed my mind as well...

[Robert Hall]

This is going to sound crazy--but how about a Chevette? Cheap, RWD, 4cyl. Probably pretty reliable...hard to find one in drivable condition, though.

[Camino LS6]

The key is that they consider a really wide range of parts to be exempt from the $500 limit because they are considered "safety" items.

Good decisions there could dictate the level of success.

[Camino LS6]

This is going to sound crazy--but how about a Chevette? Cheap, RWD, 4cyl. Probably pretty reliable...hard to find one in drivable condition, though.

It could work, but like the Vega, they are too old and hard to find.

[A Horse With No Name]

Not GM, but...

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/1377752548.html

Whatever we do, if we do it...it would be good to have one running complete parts car in the paddock to pull from. Which is why I was thinking J body...keeping a spare Cavalier around would be cheaper than a spare 924.

Also, a J body might be more like 8 years old rather than 25 or 30...something to think about.

Chris

[Robert Hall]

It could work, but like the Vega, they are too old and hard to find.

Yeah, almost 25 years since the last one...('85?)

Maybe an A-body from the late '80s early '90s...Century, Cutlass...

[mustang84]

A couple 5-speed '94 Cavaliers around my area for $500, "race ready"

http://desmoines.craigslist.org/cto/1391496841.html

[A Horse With No Name]

It could work, but like the Vega, they are too old and hard to find.

Exactly...and remember this thing has to last 24 hours under ungodly stress.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

A couple 5-speed '94 Cavaliers around my area for $500, "race ready"

http://desmoines.craigslist.org/cto/1391496841.html

Something like this would be PERFECT!

Cage is one of the largest expenses. We can borrow a safety harness and a race seat.

Fuel Cell would be really nice, and it would be easy to re-use it on another car. Also an easy Ebay or Craigslist Item.

But cage is a major sticking point.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Yeah, almost 25 years since the last one...('85?)

Maybe an A-body from the late '80s early '90s...Century, Cutlass...

Perhaps, but a manual will work out much better IMHO.

Thinking we need to think seriously about a lot of spares.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

I would still vote F-body as the best platform for this.

-Very available and cheap

-huge aftermarket/after, aftermarket

-proven race capability

-proven endurance capability

[Camino LS6]

Too bad they didn't build a million or so TTAs in '89...

[SAmadei]

An S-10 is light in the rear, and they are easy to roll over in road racing. The SCCA had a class called ITT or Improved Touring Truck that was for small pick-em-ups like that. A few people still race them in the south, and the championship racing for the SCCA improved touring cars is at Road Atlanta in Georgia. A few show up their every year...mostly Nissan Hardbody trucks but a few S-10's have run in that class as well.

They are a handful to drive at speed, and we will have a bunch of guys who have never driven on track before.

I've only seen them on the drag strip in fast form, so I wasn't sure about their prowness on the racetrack. Of course, they can be lowered and/or have ballast added to the rear... F-bodys also can be a light in the rear and a handful if you bite off more than you can chew.

I wouldn't sell the potential crew short just because they haven't been on a track... most of us understand the basics of driving dynamics and have probably tested the limits on the streets many times.

Biggest problem with an autotrajic is that with a manual you can use the compression of the motor to slow the car down by downshifting. Thus the heat energy is dissipated out the exhaust and out through the radiator. Autotrajics get hot towing, much less racing for 24 hours.

Which saves brakes... of course, brakes being "safety items" we can hope up the brakes on some cars pretty good. I'm all for the benefits of stick, but that dude in the MR2 was shifting a lot to keep it in the powerband. I imagine that is pretty rough on the clutch over the course of 24 hours... especially a clutch that may have 100K on it... at least an automatic can have a big cooler put on it.

A cheap, sporty GM--how about a Baretta or Grand Am? Avoid a Quad 4.. IIRC, a group from Car & Driver raced an Aurora a couple years ago in LeMons..

The Aurora was a pretty interesting read... since then, I think the LeMons rules have changed enough to limit bumping and rubbing, which was the major reason the Aurora didn't do too well... it got run into a few barriers and never really recovered.

The Aurora is why I like the idea of a supercharged Riv. Easy ingress/egress and speed. I fear that most smaller FWD cars are going to suffer in the engine department, unless we can swing a crazy transplant... like a supercharged 3.8 into an old Cavalier or Baretta.

This is going to sound crazy--but how about a Chevette? Cheap, RWD, 4cyl. Probably pretty reliable...hard to find one in drivable condition, though.

I like the Chevette idea... I was thinking Vega or early Sunbird/Monza/Skyhawk... but these are just too hard to get parts for... and the Chevette's suspension is just not going to hold up. Very flimsy. Its the reason I don't like the idea of going with a Fiero... with the exception of the Lotus tuned late Fieros, they just have sorry Chevette front suspension parts.

The key is that they consider a really wide range of parts to be exempt from the $500 limit because they are considered "safety" items.

The "safety" items are pretty simple... Tires, Brakes, Cage and Exhaust beyond the exhaust manifold. I saw nothing in the rules about suspension being considered a safety item, so those would need to be somewhat homebrew.

Whatever we do, if we do it...it would be good to have one running complete parts car in the paddock to pull from. Which is why I was thinking J body...keeping a spare Cavalier around would be cheaper than a spare 924.

Not only that, but there is the BS Factor. The 924 entered into the last race was not favored by the judges... they felt it was too clean and didn't really fit the $500 limit, so it got crushed as part of the People's Curse, from my understanding.

A 4th gen F-body might have the same problem... even some V8 3rd gen F-body cars might be a stretch... which tells me we need to document, document, document.

[SAmadei]

We need to figure out how to organize the team. I can do logistical stuff and I have contacts in the racing world...but I lack the leadership ability to run a team or the ability to get an injured car back on track at four in the ayem.

Well, I'm no Lingenfelter, but I can spin a wrench and come up with creative fixes... always a plus.

Of course, I foresee the biggest logistic is building the car, as we are so far apart... _unless_ this was a get together a week before, built the car in a rush, and run the wheels off of it.

[SAmadei]

Yeah, almost 25 years since the last one...('85?)

1987, actually.

Maybe an A-body from the late '80s early '90s...Century, Cutlass...

I actually have an '83 Celebrity coupe in the backyard, but it has a wrist pin knock and hasn't run in years. I was saving it to try to put a 350 in it. Of course, at this point its a $50 car. ;-) Especially since the title seems to be missing.

Honestly, though, the FWD A-bods are real anti-racecars.

Something like this would be PERFECT!

Cage is one of the largest expenses. We can borrow a safety harness and a race seat.

Fuel Cell would be really nice, and it would be easy to re-use it on another car. Also an easy Ebay or Craigslist Item.

But cage is a major sticking point.

I'm not sure how a ready made cage Cavalier would be accounted for. Is that a $1 car with a $499 cage or a $499 car with a $1 cage? Someone would have to closely examine that cage to ensure it fits the LeMons rules.

It says "race ready", but what engine is that? It would be nice to get any Cavalier up to LNF specs, if possible. ;-)

I would still vote F-body as the best platform for this.

I like the RWD... but you guys already knew that, right?

I wonder how much of WhiteKnight's Firebird could be eBay'd for upgrade/repair parts. Was it a V6 or V8?