Some notes on second a 2nd F body from Fbodfather

[hyperv6]

Posted on CZ28 and both post are copied and pasted as originally posted. God I wished he posted this stuff on this site for us too but I know his time is limited. I hope he does not mind the repost but it is a good read and give you an Idea were things are going. I know it hints around but save this and with future news it will add up. They were asking about a return of the Firebird. FIST POST:Fbodfather well...I guess I should chime in here. First.....I would say that "never" is a longgggggggggg time.....so I don't want to say never. Second....I understand your being upset. That's actually, in some ways, a good thing....it shows your passion for the Firebird...and while it may sound trite, we're glad that people feel so strongly toward one (or more) of our brands....... Interesting tidbit.......the Colorado was a 'chevy only' product.....but the Canyon was executed in record time when it was decided that GMC needed an entry as well......... Now.......I don't think there's a person within GM that would be happier than I if the decision was made to bring the Firebird back.......AS LONG AS THE ENTRY DESERVED THE FIREBIRD NAME!!!!......(and that's important!!! It must be V8/RWD/and all the other things that make a Firebird a Firebird!!!!) That said, I also know what shape Ford and GM are in these days. Every dollar counts......and we have to wisely allocate the available dollars and personnel to make each dollar and person count ...'the best bang for the buck, so to speak'.........and I'm not convinced (and I know you don't want to hear this.....) that the wisest choice RIGHT NOW...is to do two "Fcars"......because like it or not, they do compete with each other. Yes, there are some Firebird owners that will never buy a Camaro and vice versa....but the numbers are not in the 80% range. As to the popularity of Impala in the 90s.....that's one of the most misunderstood issues -- in my opinion-- of the past ten years. Care to guess how many Impala SSs were built in the 94-96 model years? . . . . . . . .less than 67,000 units for the three model years combined. Yup...they flew off the shelves in 1994 and early 1995....but by the end of the 1995 model year, they were in dealer inventory.....sales slowed......and we had to throw rebates into the formula to move 'em out so we could build more.......... Now........we sold over 200,000 Impalas last year......the OLD body style......5 years into a lifecycle. I make this point for a reason: >Everything GM and Ford does.....EVERYTHING.....MUST be with the stockholder in mind. Like it or not, we're in the business to make money...the stockholder and Wall Street demand it! If we were making billions of dollars, I'd be screaming from the top of all 7 towers in the RenCen......that we need a Firebird and we need it NOW!!!! But a quick look at reality will show that GM is losing Billions........and we need to turn that around NOW or we aren't gonna be here! (yes, I believe we'll be here for a long time.....assuming that the economy doesn't dip into recession and Delphi does not go on strike....) So........yup.......I understand your passion for the Firebird...probably more than you'll ever know........and yes, I think we need a Firebird.......and yes, I realize that there are a lot of upset Firebird (and Pontiac) enthusiasts out there.........and yes, this has been a long post, and no, you probably still aren't happy with the answer......but I DO believe I owe you an explanation. Please...do not assume you will never see another Firebird...... Oh yeah.....as to the Silverado/Sierra and Solstice/Sky .......let me address those next........(in another post) OTHER POST: There, in my opinion, will continue to be both a Silverado and A Sierra pickup truck for well into the future.......for several reasons......some being: >Profit......that's where the dough is.......... >Size of market.......we sell more Silverados ALONE....than the entire "Sport coupe" market..........in fact, we sell over TWICE as many Silverados as all cars in the sport coupe market combined......that's a pretty powerful statement. >Dealer Bodies.........we have francise agreements with our dealers. Can you imagine what would happen to a GMC dealer if we suddenly stopped building Sierras? (no, we couldn't just give 'em Silverados.......francise laws in most states forbid doing that) Further, when the 900 series pickups are introduced, you'll see even more differentiation between Chevy and GMC. Now.......Solstice and Sky......first, I think you'll see a wider delta in terms of pricing....both are 'halo' cars for their Divisions........(yes, Firebird would be a halo as well....)....and both are very low volume.......in order for the business case to work, I suspect that the Solstice could not survive very long without the added volume from Sky. I'm not a subject expert here.....but knowing what I know about this industry, I think I'm on safe ground making that statement. Do not assume that the Camaro will be the only product in whatever plant is decided upon. There will be other entries in that plant....and the other entries may be surprising to you. (sorry, I can't say more than that at this point in time.....) So......yes, there are good strong rational decisions for why there is a Silverado and a Sierra........and a Solstice and a Sky. And....perhaps as the market continues to change, there MAY be a reason to have Camaro and Firebird. But I have yet to see the 2-door market grow. Yes, Mustang sales are up, but the coupe market continues to contract across all market segments. That's simply due to consumer preferences. You can advertise til the cows come home, but you cannot force a market. Anyway......I've been long winded here.......and again, I'm sorry I can't give you (or anyone) the answers they want to hear.......but I'm just trying to shed some light on the issues raised. Keep the faith! You nor I know what the future may hold! (and hey, perhaps a Camaro is right for you until the Firebird comes back!) Edited January 1, 2006 by hyperv6

[Cory Wolfe]

Good read. Makes sense although I don't necessarily like it... Hey, hyper... I'm just curious, but do you know if he has seen or said anything about the proposal to put the G6 onto the Camaro's platform, as well as a GTO based on it? Again, just curious... I think it's a good idea and would help both the Camaro and Pontiac.

[hyperv6]

Good read. Makes sense although I don't necessarily like it...

Hey, hyper... I'm just curious, but do you know if he has seen or said anything about the proposal to put the G6 onto the Camaro's platform, as well as a GTO based on it? Again, just curious... I think it's a good idea and would help both the Camaro and Pontiac.

[post="66240"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I have not heard him address the GTO for a good while.

I did like the line:

"Do not assume that the Camaro will be the only product in whatever plant is decided upon. There will be other entries in that plant....and the other entries may be surprising to you. (sorry, I can't say more than that at this point in time.....)"

Makes you wonder?

[hyperv6]

Don't try to over think this as it can make one frustrated. His point is they at this point don't know how well the Camaro will sell and how profiable they will make it. So why build two cars till you know how things will go. GM and others have had a hard time predicting the mass market 2 door coupe market. Only Ford has been able to sell the Mustang. Lets face it even Chrysler wimpwd out and made the Charger a 4 door. Now that Mustang sales havbe been very good Chrysler and GM are looking but will be careful in their moves. If the Camaro sells in great numbers you may see a Firebird but right now GM needs to make every dollar count and a RWD 4 door Pontiac sedan needs the funding more as the odds it will be a better seller. At this point lets just be glad we have one coupe coming. As I stated keep this info in the back of your mind and as more things happen it all falls into place.

[GMTruckGuy74]

There was a two year delay between the first production Camaro and first production Firebird after all.

Not true. Camaro's and Firebirds were both available in 1967 (Camaro was first to the market, Firebird mid-'67). The Trans Am model didn't appear until 1969, at which point it was just an added package to a Firebird (became its own model in 1970 1/2).

[Newbiewar]

on this note... when you have 2 cars that are essentailly the same, you only need to run the tests on one? or do the tests need to be run on both?

[Guest Josh]

His comments on this scare me:

But a quick look at reality will show that GM is losing Billions........and we need to turn that around NOW or we aren't gonna be here! (yes, I believe we'll be here for a long time.....assuming that the economy doesn't dip into recession and Delphi does not go on strike....)

Those are two variables that General Motors really has no control over. Boy, I sure hope '06 is not going to wind up as I fear it to be.

[gmhashope]

Good read. Makes sense although I don't necessarily like it...

Hey, hyper... I'm just curious, but do you know if he has seen or said anything about the proposal to put the G6 onto the Camaro's platform, as well as a GTO based on it? Again, just curious... I think it's a good idea and would help both the Camaro and Pontiac.

[post="66240"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The G6 will not be RWD, it will go on Epsilon II around 2010. I know someone that works with GM at a testing ground and their is work on another RWD platform beside the one the Camaro will be on. The way I think it will unfold is the Camaro and a Chevy sedan on Sigma-lite and the GTO/G8 (Grand Prix) along with a Buick on the Zeta platform.

[ehaase]

The way I think it will unfold is the Camaro and a Chevy sedan on Sigma-lite and the GTO/G8 (Grand Prix) along with a Buick on the Zeta platform.

[post="66524"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Can GM afford to develop two RWD platforms that aren't too different in size? (Not to mention the Sigma.) Most of the other auto makers seem to develop a wide variety of vehicles off just one platform.

[turbo200]

I believe they will build a flexible Zeta that will house the much larger sedans and the intermediate Mustang-sized Camaro. That wheelbase would be perfect for the next G6. GM has enough FWD offerings and not enough neutral beautiful-handling RWD offerings

[ehaase]

I believe they will build a flexible Zeta that will house the much larger sedans and the intermediate Mustang-sized Camaro. That wheelbase would be perfect for the next G6. GM has enough FWD offerings and not enough neutral beautiful-handling RWD offerings

[post="66717"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I hope that Zeta will be as flexible as Nissan's RWD platform that is used for the 350Z, FX35/45, M35/45, and G35, so that Camaro fans won't be disappointed with a 200 inch long, 4000 lb car.

[Drew Dowdell]

As to the popularity of Impala in the 90s.....that's one of the most misunderstood issues -- in my opinion-- of the past ten years.

Care to guess how many Impala SSs were built in the 94-96 model years?

.
.
.
.less than 67,000 units for the three model years combined. Yup...they flew off the shelves in 1994 and early 1995....but by the end of the 1995 model year, they were in dealer inventory.....sales slowed......and we had to throw rebates into the formula to move 'em out so we could build more..........

Now........we sold over 200,000 Impalas last year......the OLD body style......5 years into a lifecycle. I make this point for a reason:

Not a fair comparison. The W-body Impala essentially took over the job of 3 nameplates. Lumina, Caprice and Impala SS.

[avro206]

I love Firebirds but I honestly wouldn't want it back UNLESS: It had significantly different body work. Maybe trunk Camaro and hatch for the Firebird? Even different engines. Different suspesnions. WS6 was far better then the IROC-Z setup--the springs were way too stiff. The point is even 3rd gen F-bodies had different perosnalities. I don't want a 100% mechanical clone. 4th gens were that. So I'd suck it up and get a new Camaro.

[OhcTA]

Not true.  Camaro's and Firebirds were both available in 1967 (Camaro was first to the market, Firebird mid-'67).  The Trans Am model didn't appear until 1969, at which point it was just an added package to a Firebird (became its own model in 1970 1/2).

[post="66328"][/post]

1969, er I mean 2006, Trans Am concept.