FL considers charging by the mile

[Intrepidation]

State considers charging by the mile

Isabel Mascarenas 4 days ago

St. Petersburg, Florida - Motorists are fueling up less often these days. Some are buying fuel efficient cars, while others are simply driving less. That means every gallon that sits in a gas station's pump is money the state loses in taxes for road projects, an estimated $7 billion over the next five years.

Instead of raising the gas tax, some state transportation officials are considering charging motorists based on the miles they drive. Keith Craig says it seems like a good idea, "The general idea seems to be fine for retirees who don't drive too much."

This is how the program would work: a GPS type of system would be placed in each vehicle. When you go to fuel up, a device at the pump will calculate how many miles you've driven since the last trip to the gas station and charge you based on those miles.

After giving it some more thought, Craig frowns on the vehicle miles travel tax, known as VMT.

"It sounds like they have more control of me. Not sure I want that and not only that, they could keep track of me."

"Be kind of weird, I think. They might as well put a chip in me to see where I go every day," says Rick Berry. He owns a tree service business and drives about 200 miles a day. "If it cost me money, I'd definitely pass it on to my customers," says Berry.

Some motorists on a tight budget may not have a choice but to pay up. Sheena Fowler adds, "I work during the day. My fiance goes to school at night. Our car is used all day, it doubles our mileage. It would not be good for me."

We tried several times to get a comment from the Department of Transportation in Tallahassee, but no one has responded.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story...storyid=113575

[Intrepidation]

Anything to screw us out of a little more money!

[Camino LS6]

Yet another state to cross off the list.

An emphatic NO ! to any govt. GPS in my vehicles.

[FAPTurbo]

On one hand this really sucks, but on the other, it's good economics because we need more user-pay systems to curb car use. The revenues from this could be used to put effective mass-transit systems in place.

[Camino LS6]

On one hand this really sucks, but on the other, it's good economics because we need more user-pay systems to curb car use. The revenues from this could be used to put effective mass-transit systems in place.

Wow!

I completely reject that rationale.

[Northstar]

Florida already has ridiculous toll rates. I drove to Ft. Lauderdale this summer and we went on the Florida Turnpike... there was one toll for $1.50, one for $2.50, and the last toll was $17!!?!? Granted, we were on the road for quite some time (5 hours of driving maybe), but it was just ridiculous that you had to pay $21 to use the damn road.

[Intrepidation]

They want us to buy more fuel efficient cars that use less gas and they want us to save the planet by driving less. People have a hard enough time in this economy as it is. More taxes to fund bonuses for corrupt politicians won't help anyone but their bank accounts

I believe we pay plenty of taxes, I didn't give the government permission to spend billions of taxpayer money on pointless wars and bailing out banks that helped get us in this mess in the first place. If we weren't sending billions to banks and funding pointless wars, and allowing companies to continue to outsource instead of encouraging them to stay here, while reining in other wasteful spending, maybe the economy would be a tiny bit better than it is currently and maybe we wouldn't owe China billions.

As well, you must know the majority of that revenue will not go towards improving roads or public transit, it'll get wasted on something else

[Croc]

If FL converted their gas tax from a flat tax to a %-based tax, they'd be fine.

[FAPTurbo]

Wow!

I completely reject that rationale.

You don't believe in user pay for facilities?

It's not like I'm a Smart Car driving granola here, I drive a big truck, and I have to so I can move big things for my work. At the same time, I also commute with mass transit, and realize that many of the people who drive single-occupancy vehicles don't really need to, which infers that using a car is a luxury. My taxes go to fund roads, but our transit system is incurring a massive shortfall this year, and the roads aren't in great shape; something needs to change, and the best way to get that money is to implement measures like road taxes, tolls, or distance based insurance.

I guess it's down to where you're located. I'm in the city, where people don't travel too far to get to where they need to go, but congest the roadways, and that creates many problems. If you're out of town, in a more rural setting, where there is little to no bus service, and your distances are longer, than it's easy to see why there'd be rejection.

[Intrepidation]

There's no mass transit to where I work, and I don't think walking or bicycling for 39 miles each way is viable.

[Camino LS6]

You don't believe in user pay for facilities?

It's not like I'm a Smart Car driving granola here, I drive a big truck, and I have to so I can move big things for my work. At the same time, I also commute with mass transit, and realize that many of the people who drive single-occupancy vehicles don't really need to, which infers that using a car is a luxury. My taxes go to fund roads, but our transit system is incurring a massive shortfall this year, and the roads aren't in great shape; something needs to change, and the best way to get that money is to implement measures like road taxes, tolls, or distance based insurance.

I guess it's down to where you're located. I'm in the city, where people don't travel too far to get to where they need to go, but congest the roadways, and that creates many problems. If you're out of town, in a more rural setting, where there is little to no bus service, and your distances are longer, than it's easy to see why there'd be rejection.

What I reject is the notion that the government should engineer a change in my driving habits through a punitive and invasive tax.

I also reject the idea that infrastructure improvement and repair (including mass transit) should come from a mileage tax on drivers of automobiles. It should be included as a regular budget item in a state's general fund.

[SAmadei]

On one hand this really sucks, but on the other, it's good economics because we need more user-pay systems to curb car use. The revenues from this could be used to put effective mass-transit systems in place.

They won't. If government put the money towards worthwhile needs, they'd only need a fraction of it.

Message to FL... to cover your shortfall, get rid of the corruption and greed in your political system.

FL is a BIG state... implementing reasonably convenient public transportation would be obscene costly, and in the end, it would go bankrupt. Who cares, the politicians will mortgage it on your grandchildren's backs and they'll only steal half the money.

People point to Europe and Japan's fantastic public transportation, but they have WAY higher population density. Even in our (supposed) gleaming example of public transportation in NYC is slow, obsolete, expensive and virtually bankrupt unless they raise the rates... AGAIN.

There's no mass transit to where I work, and I don't think walking or bicycling for 39 miles each way is viable.

I know where you're coming from. The pundits want you to either move to a neighborhood near work which might be undesirable or expensive, or get a lousy job nearby.

Of course, this does have the plus that the roads would be used less, as the poor lose their cars and homes and are forced into work camps, where they can work off their debit from the hovel right next to the Soylent Green factory. Some days, I'd do anything to chase my fellow drivers off the road... usually I advocate having a big red button on your dash that makes the car in front of you magically vaporize. ;-)

[Intrepidation]

I want one of those buttons!

[Robert Hall]

The cost of outfitting cars w/ GPS alone and cost of managing that seems like it would outweigh any benefit. A better usage tax is a consumption tax--i.e. a gas tax. The more you use, the more you pay..that seems more fair.

I think some countries, specifically the UK, are looking at a use tax like Florida's idea.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Intrepidation]

The cost of outfitting cars w/ GPS alone and cost of managing that seems like it would outweigh any benefit. A better usage tax is a consumption tax--i.e. a gas tax. The more you use, the more you pay..that seems more fair.

I think some countries, specifically the UK, are looking at a use tax like Florida's idea.

Except if, you know, use your car mainly for work. Most of my mileage comes from going to and from work. they already take plenty out via income tax, they can go piss off if they want more.

[Robert Hall]

Except if, you know, use your car mainly for work. Most of my mileage comes from going to and from work. they already take plenty out via income tax, they can go piss off if they want more.

Same here..I drive about 300 miles a week, of which 250 is work (50/day). I don't know what the gas tax in AZ is, but it's probably one of the lowest in the country since it's a red state.

[Intrepidation]

Well MA just raised the sales tax and there's all kinds of talk about raising the gas tax and other taxes....how abouut they stop the wasteful spending and get their act together before they try to shove more taxes down our throats?

[Robert Hall]

Well MA just raised the sales tax and there's all kinds of talk about raising the gas tax and other taxes....how abouut they stop the wasteful spending and get their act together before they try to shove more taxes down our throats?

Do they have a budget deficit for this year? Is that why they raised the sales tax? AZ has a $2.93 billion deficit this year, supposedly 24.2% of operating budget. And it's impossible to raise taxes here.

[Intrepidation]

It's estimated to be around $3 billion. For comparison, NH has a deficit of $190 million. They rejected higher taxes to close the gap in favor of looking for alternative ways.

[Drew Dowdell]

What I reject is the notion that the government should engineer a change in my driving habits through a punitive and invasive tax.

It's not a punitive measure. It's use based. It's actually more fair than a per gallon tax since you would pay the same tax in your Camino as someone driving a Fit if you both drove the same distance. Today, you pay more tax per mile than a Fit driver because you drive a less fuel efficient vehicle and the tax is calculated per gallon of fuel.

[Camino LS6]

It's not a punitive measure. It's use based. It's actually more fair than a per gallon tax since you would pay the same tax in your Camino as someone driving a Fit if you both drove the same distance. Today, you pay more tax per mile than a Fit driver because you drive a less fuel efficient vehicle and the tax is calculated per gallon of fuel.

Still punitive, and an attempt to manipulate.

Unacceptable.

[Camino LS6]

It's estimated to be around $3 billion. For comparison, NH has a deficit of $190 million. They rejected higher taxes to close the gap in favor of looking for alternative ways.

I'm really starting to fall in love with NH!

[Robert Hall]

Still punitive, and an attempt to manipulate.

Unacceptable.

No, it's fair. And gas taxes are fair as well--if one choose to drive something less efficient, one pays more. I drive a Jeep that averages 18 mpg, so I'm consuming more than someone in a Jetta getting 50 mpg, so logically, I pay more taxes for the privilege. That's only reasonable.

[bobo]

Charging by VMT is the most fair, but the Big Brotherish aspects will prevent it from being implemented nationwide. The gas tax has served well as long as there have been incremental increases with inflation. When vehicles have extremely high mileage or use no gas (i.e. electric), it becomes less fair.

[Drew Dowdell]

Still punitive, and an attempt to manipulate.

Unacceptable.

It is NOT punitive! It is trying to assign a tax to you based on the amount you use the roads. If it's punative to anyone, it's the Pruis/Volt/EV-1 drivers who pay a much lower tax right now.

Tell me this... is the fact that the Turnpike charges a toll based on the distance traveled + tunnel/bridge costs punitive?*

*I've noticed that the cost per mile between TPK exits is higher if there are tunnels or large expensive bridges in between.

Edit: I'm not saying this is a good idea, I'm just saying that it is not punitive.

[CSpec]

The information requirements for these plans are horrendous. Central planners ran into a similar problem: you need to employ an army to keep track of everyone, mail letters, resolve disputes, maintain the equipment, etc etc. Having a tax on gasoline is far simpler and more efficient, and raising it is the best solution. Urban areas are a different matter with congestion pricing, where you can charge more or less depending on the time.

[Camino LS6]

It punishes and invades.

It punishes those that drive for a living and invades the privacy of all car owners while accomplishing no more than the gas tax already does without the complexity.

I'm no fan of gas taxes, but at least they could be honest about it and simply raise the rate.

This idea overreaches to no purpose.

[Drew Dowdell]

It punishes and invades.

It punishes those that drive for a living and invades the privacy of all car owners while accomplishing no more than the gas tax already does without the complexity.

I'm no fan of gas taxes, but at least they could be honest about it and simply raise the rate.

This idea overreaches to no purpose.

How do you plan on fairly charging the road tax to Volt drivers who have a 20 mile round trip commute and almost never use gas?

[capriceman]

How do you plan on fairly charging the road tax to Volt drivers who have a 20 mile round trip commute and almost never use gas?

Well if the govt didn't push green so much they wouldn't need to change the tax structure. lets face it there will never be a fair taxing system. You simply cannot attach devices to our cars to tax us every mile to go to work were we get taxed and then go to the store were we will get taxed again. Its getting to be a bit ridiculous. MI has a fairly high gas and has the worst roads ever and we all drive for the most part "gas guzzlers."

[SAmadei]

How do you plan on fairly charging the road tax to Volt drivers who have a 20 mile round trip commute and almost never use gas?

This has been a issue that has been on my mind for a long time, and as Cspec noted, tracking mileage via GPS is an informational nightmare.

Your example of the Volt demonstrates that the gas tax, is broken as well, and the Volt is the least significant issue... how about people making biodiesel, woodgas or driving homebuilt electric cars... sure they are in the minority now, but are growing and some states have already crucified these pioneering greenies as tax scufflaws.

Sometimes, you just have to tax certain items flatly. I think Camino suggested making these items part of the state's budget... then it comes out of everyone's pockets equally in your income or property taxes (in theory, as we know all about loopholes and other BS). The bottom line is that we all benefit from this infrastructure, even if you don't drive at all... your consumables get to stores, your bus takes you to the mall, your kids get shuttled to school, your trash gets picked up... all on roads.

If you waste all this effort to build a big brother system to track mileage, how long before you have to pay higher taxes if your child does well at school or you have the garbage men weighing (or worse, sampling) your trash. "Oh, Mr. Smith, we found cigarette butts in your trash, afriad we are going to have to raise your health care tax."

OTOH, I would not be opposed to seeing a small scale GPS mileage tracker system imposed for large commercial traffic, as that would be a fraction of the informational nightmare and its the big trucks do the most road wear, anyway. Plus its not really a big brother issue since they already are required to maintain logs.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't own a car, but I own 4 properties. How is taxing me for road maintenance via my property taxes in any way fair?

[SAmadei]

I don't own a car, but I own 4 properties. How is taxing me for road maintenance via my property taxes in any way fair?

You can be in only one property at a time. Unless they are contiguous, you need to to be driven over roads... private airfields on each property are unlikely. Are you a complete hermit, living off the land? If you need external supplies... they come over those roads.

If your renting them out, your paying for road usage for your tenants... pass on the cost. So then you would be against trash collection and schools taking unfairly from you, as well.

Not only that, but you are paying for the luxury of knowing that they are there... IF you need them. Just like FEMA or the armed forces... I'm paying for it, but haven't benefited from either. No disaster in my neighborhood or invasion (or even PLANS of invasion) in decades. But I pay for it the same because, in theory, they are there if needed.

My taxes are paying for parks and greenspace that I never use... No system is perfect.

Edited September 23, 2009 by SAmadei

[Camino LS6]

This has been a issue that has been on my mind for a long time, and as Cspec noted, tracking mileage via GPS is an informational nightmare.

Your example of the Volt demonstrates that the gas tax, is broken as well, and the Volt is the least significant issue... how about people making biodiesel, woodgas or driving homebuilt electric cars... sure they are in the minority now, but are growing and some states have already crucified these pioneering greenies as tax scufflaws.

Sometimes, you just have to tax certain items flatly. I think Camino suggested making these items part of the state's budget... then it comes out of everyone's pockets equally in your income or property taxes (in theory, as we know all about loopholes and other BS). The bottom line is that we all benefit from this infrastructure, even if you don't drive at all... your consumables get to stores, your bus takes you to the mall, your kids get shuttled to school, your trash gets picked up... all on roads.

If you waste all this effort to build a big brother system to track mileage, how long before you have to pay higher taxes if your child does well at school or you have the garbage men weighing (or worse, sampling) your trash. "Oh, Mr. Smith, we found cigarette butts in your trash, afriad we are going to have to raise your health care tax."

OTOH, I would not be opposed to seeing a small scale GPS mileage tracker system imposed for large commercial traffic, as that would be a fraction of the informational nightmare and its the big trucks do the most road wear, anyway. Plus its not really a big brother issue since they already are required to maintain logs.

You understand my position precisely.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

How do you plan on fairly charging the road tax to Volt drivers who have a 20 mile round trip commute and almost never use gas?

Then the government is effectively promoting fuel efficient vehicles AS IS.

But still, its best to eliminate fuel taxes entirely and get those revenues from sales taxes.

No reason to punish poor people who often cannot afford to live close to work.

[FAPTurbo]

Then the government is effectively promoting fuel efficient vehicles AS IS.

But still, its best to eliminate fuel taxes entirely and get those revenues from sales taxes.

No reason to punish poor people who often cannot afford to live close to work.

But sales taxes are also regressive, and impact the poor the most.

[regfootball]

Well MA just raised the sales tax and there's all kinds of talk about raising the gas tax and other taxes....how abouut they stop the wasteful spending and get their act together before they try to shove more taxes down our throats?

exactly

[regfootball]

we all know the GPS devices and tracking our miles driven is part of social control and part of the socialist agenda.

i am fine with the gas tax, i am also fine if they raise it, to PAY FOR MORE ROADS AND ROAD CONSTRUCTION and even some transit.

some say the gas tax punishes the poor but in truth the big dogs want the poor to own a car too, and for that reason it helps keep the price of a car and gas down in an area that most people can still swing. let's say they drop the gas tax because the poor can't afford it.

well then the cost of that poor person's apartment will go up. the price of cars and gas will go up. And they will start finding other user fees to rape you with.

gas tax needs to keep pace with the CPI to make sense. and, if consumption of gas goes down there is no reason a mechanism should not be in place to raise the tax to offset decreased fuel usage. gas tax money should not go to general fund, it should be all about improving transportation.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

But sales taxes are also regressive, and impact the poor the most.

Well if stuff like food was taxed then i would agree with you. But most "necessities" of life aren't taxed.

besides food is heavily subsidized, so any tax that the poor would pay on food would come no-where near the amount that it is subsidized.

A flat tax with the basic necessities of life excluded is the fairest tax system... BUT... it would deliver very erratic tax revenues which would force governments into conservative spending which would theoretically create large surpluses most years. However that would never happen as California shows quite clearly, and you will just end up with tons of debt.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[aaaantoine]

You need a GPS to to scan someone's VIN and read their odometer?

This sounds like a gateway mandate for something more oppressive... like GPS-based speed tracking.

Edited September 25, 2009 by aaaantoine

[SAmadei]

You need a GPS to to scan someone's VIN and read their odometer?

I think they are trying to avoid just using odometer readings, as one cannot be certain those miles are racked up in a particular state or in someone's (large) backyard.

[Robert Hall]

You need a GPS to to scan someone's VIN and read their odometer?

This sounds like a gateway mandate for something more oppressive... like GPS-based speed tracking.

GPS could be used for precrime detection also, if you drive into a neighborhood known for crack dealers or prostitution, for example..

[capriceman]

Smells like distopia...