Bob Lutz Shares Details of the Chevrolet Volt

[deftonesfan867]

You seriously make me not want to read any threads about the Volt.

How and why you're still on this site both amazes and baffles me.

[Drew Dowdell]

GTX, I think you need to stop trolling about the Volt until such time as any new details are released.

[The O.C.]

If you want REAL fuel savings, the hybrid Tahoe gets the same mileage as the 4 cylinder Camry and for those people who need to tow their 5,000 lb boat and have a family, there are no other options. There are some real potential fuel savings to be had!

Unfortunately, I think the GMT-900 Hybrids are a bust......

When I was in Las Vegas working for Caddy, my GM used to drive Escalades.....and since he and I shared a house, I would drive his Escalade fairly often.....and the Escalade averaged around 14mpg (mostly city driving, some highway.)

Then, he started driving the Hybrid because he thought it was cool. When I started monitoring the mileage on that vehicle, it averaged around 15.5-16mpg at best in similar commuting conditions.

For me, the extra 1.5-2mpg just didn't add up for me considering the loss in performance with the Hybrid.....not to mention the additional up-front cost of that model over a "normal" Escalade. You also can't get second-row captains chairs (which everyone buying Escalades really wanted.)

I will say, however, the engineering of the Hybrid was exceptional.....it's a nice package. Just doesn't provide any meaningful improvement in fuel economy considering the cost and lesser performance IMHO.

[FloydHendershot]

I assume you are up to date on the state of the industry and know that Nissan plans to release the all-electric Leaf next year (i.e. before or at about the same time as the Volt). It will have a much lower price of entry than the Volt and apparently more cost effective than a similar sized gas car (which the Volt isn't).

PR: Did I mention it was all-electric? I should mention it is all electric. I should also mention the Volt uses gas. The Leaf doesn't use any gas. etc.

I imagine the Volt should perform better... but the Prius proves that really isn't the point in this segment. Plus if you really want something that performs well, the Volt, with a price tag of a CTS-V but with a 0-60 time of the hybrid Camry, doesn't really cut it. And now that GM has proclaimed that 40 miles is good enough for near 80% of the population, it will be interesting to watch them argue that 100 miles isn't good enough.

What was the point of all your cute emoticons again?

Yes. Was there actually something actually wrong with the information? Or is that just your knee-jerk reaction?

No you shouldn't mention it uses gas because you've been fluffing the Prius as a counter argument and now it's a problem, You are best to leave it out.

But I'll tell you when it comes to plunking down the green for an electric GM has had some experience with not only the electric tech and not only that if you go more than 100? miles (they dont even specify a range) then what?

having a conventional, efficient motor on standby can't possibly be a bad thing,

So then you are ok with Ghosn's proposal of at least $75 billion in U.S. government money be used to fund the consumer incentives. You seem to have such a hard on about GM and Chrysler's position on use of tax payer money.

And please, do share the cost of both cars because most people don't know the cost of either.

Just so you know, my knee jerk reaction to Wikipedia is that you are too lazy to do your own homework. I checked over it a little and well Garbage in/Garbage out.

Now go put on a hockey game and get your tit out of the ringer.

[Z-06]

Wikipedia has a great article on this.

http://en.wikipedia....play_television

Funny you should mention Plasma, because I think the Volt is comparable.

What you wrote isn't true at all for LCDs. LCD TVs they were very small initially. The first commercial LCD TV was in 1988 and was apparently 14". By 2004, 32" models were widely available, 42" sets were becoming common. Over the past couple of years LCD sizes have been increasing dramatically. The same is true for computer LCDs... they started at 15" or below, not 30 or 40".

Plasmas may have started large because there was a market opening, but the cost of entry was high. By 2007 LCDs were outselling CRTs and Plasmas. Now plasma exists only on borrowed time.

LCD = Hybrid

Plasma = Volt

There might have been commercial LCD TV's in 1988 but their push into mass market applications was no where near what it has been over past few years. As for the computer LCD's there was no need at the time to produce 30 or 40" LCD monitors while there was a market for big screen TV's. Couple of things you forget to add into this analogy and still undermines your statements are that manufacturers themselves shelved out the production of CRT's and government pushed the Digital revolution concurrently thereby changing the rules by which the game was played. Consumers had no option but to opt for pricey TV's, monitors. No such modification of rules has yet taken place to the Volt scenario to really pose a equivalence in those two cases.

The point is that the Volt's design is such that they NEED to carry that much deadweight. It is more than just a "battery life" issue... the ICE is unable to drive the wheels and is insufficient to power the car under heavy load. It is a flaw that drives up the cost and hurts efficiency. It is one of the reasons that some automakers have found this design a non-starter. That GM didn't think this far ahead or didn't want it to interfere with their one-upping of the Prius (as per Lutz) is no reason to commend them.

The point is Volt is a SERIES not a PARALLEL hybrid. Series hybrid lets you chose any type of propulsion beyond the battery. You can use gasoline, ethanol, hydrogen, nuclear power without dependence on one propulsion unlike the parallel system of the Prius or the full blown battery system of the Leaf. Yet it will offer scalability of the battery in future designs. It is a happy medium till battery technology comes into full life to give the car a range of a typical gasoline car, infrastructure is in place and removing the use of oil. Yes GM can put a powerful engine if it wants to just like Fisker is doing in its Karma. Speaking of Karma I never hear you whine about that car which is on an identical system.

Ah, the "energy independence" argument. It doesn't really hold up. I've given the numbers before, but because of the niche volume of the Volt and the delay in getting it to market Toyota has sold so many Prius that they have saved so much fuel that the Volt will likely never have the same impact as the Prius. I've joked that the person sitting and waiting for his Volt could have saved more fuel by buying a Prius than he ever will with his Volt. When the time comes (and apparently this is soon according to Nissan), people will buy all-electric cars and then the Volt will be the relative gas consumer.

It should be no surprise that the Volt isn't the "right" car, as per Lutz that was never the goal of the Volt.

Which part of this you did not get about energy independence? Energy independence does not mean saving fuel.

"Americans want freedom but they fail to recognize that freedom has no price tag."

Just because Volt production BEGINS as a niche does not mean it will STAY niche. When people will buy all electric car, Volt technology will then be fully converted to all electric too, right? Or GM will just sit there and clap hands? Volt is an intermediate step. So as long the oil is still a force, oil companies will make sure they sell every drop of it. Volt is a right accord of current usage and future trend. Prius or Leaf cannot boast that.

As for the timing of electric - Carlos the Jackal is speculating just like Lutz or oil trader or armchair bashers. Just because he said it does not mean that is exactly what will happen.

[CARBIZ]

Unfortunately, I think the GMT-900 Hybrids are a bust......

When I was in Las Vegas working for Caddy, my GM used to drive Escalades.....and since he and I shared a house, I would drive his Escalade fairly often.....and the Escalade averaged around 14mpg (mostly city driving, some highway.)

Then, he started driving the Hybrid because he thought it was cool. When I started monitoring the mileage on that vehicle, it averaged around 15.5-16mpg at best in similar commuting conditions.

For me, the extra 1.5-2mpg just didn't add up for me considering the loss in performance with the Hybrid.....not to mention the additional up-front cost of that model over a "normal" Escalade. You also can't get second-row captains chairs (which everyone buying Escalades really wanted.)

I will say, however, the engineering of the Hybrid was exceptional.....it's a nice package. Just doesn't provide any meaningful improvement in fuel economy considering the cost and lesser performance IMHO.

Out of curiousity, OC, are those figures from the Caddy's own trip computer, or did you (or your GM) take the time to calculate the mpg numbers yourself? The reason I am asking is that I have found from personal experience that the trip computers are not very accurate. It's better to do the mpg numbers the old fashioned way: drive till the tank is empty, fill it up, take the odometer reading and figure it yourself.

But you've raised a valid point about any of the 'electric' systems: their Achilles heal will be the use of a/c or loss of battery power due to cold weather use (like up here in the hinterland!) None of these systems are going to be perfect, and unless gasoline rises back up to $5, they won't be terribly cost effective either. But I do have great faith in our Arab friends, or the next hurricane in the gulf, to raise those prices back up and I, for one, will be glad to be driving a 4 cylinder that gets 30+ mpg rather than a V-8 hog!

[GXT]

If you want REAL fuel savings, the hybrid Tahoe gets the same mileage as the 4 cylinder Camry and for those people who need to tow their 5,000 lb boat and have a family, there are no other options. There are some real potential fuel savings to be had!

2010 2WD Hybrid Tahoe: 21 City, 22 highway, 22 combined

2010 4Cyl Camry: 22, 26, 33.

I'm not going to rag on the Tahoe Hybrid because I think it does very well, but it isn't the "same". If you don't believe me, buy the GM PR and focus on the fact that the Camry gets 50% better fuel economy (33 MPG vs 22). I think people drive in the city, but what do I know.

Since we won't know the true economics of the Volt until many months after it hits the market, all speculation borders on maniacal, theatrical 'piling on' hatred toward GM. I, for one, would buy a Volt in a flash: I'd love to drive to work every day and NEVER give PetroCanada another dime. I've put 27k km on my car in 27 months and my round trip to work is about 10 km in stop and go traffic in downtown Toronto: I AM the target market for the Volt.

Carbiz, I bet you don't buy a Volt. Even if you think you are the target market (you will typically only use a 1/4 of the battery, so it is overkill for you... you are actually more of a target for the prius plug-in), I bet you don't put the $50,0000 CDN down to buy one. You can try to make equations about miles travelled and the range of the Volt, but in the end it just doesn't make enough sense when everything else is taken into consideration. And the reality of you trying to hurt Petrocan is that you are in effect sticking it to Alberta and Sask which means they will no longer be able to give transfers to Ontario which means they can't "afford" to go further into debt giving away my money to encourage you to buy the Volt.