Do you give people second chances?

[capriceman]

Im on the fence on posting a personal at home issue,

However, I'm interested in Seeing on if you guys feel that second chances should be given or do you think there are enough warnings out there to say you only get one chance.

Or does it depend on the issue at hand and what qualify's for a second chance or what doesn't? feel free to express On what you think does and doesn't.

Thanks.

[Croc]

It depends greatly on what the hell you're talking about, and past behavior. I give second chances until it becomes apparent that there is a pattern of behavior afoot. Of course, it takes a while for me to trust someone to begin with, so most people get weeded out early.

[ZL-1]

It depends greatly on what the hell you're talking about, and past behavior. I give second chances until it becomes apparent that there is a pattern of behavior afoot. Of course, it takes a while for me to trust someone to begin with, so most people get weeded out early.

[trinacriabob]

Wow. This issue has been "thematic" for me in the last decade, or so.

Family members:

I was willing to give family members more chances because they are family members, but they too need to abide by the rules of having to learn. My last remaining parent caused a lot of (completely unnecessary) problems a handful years ago. It was completely UNnecessary. I was drained. Then it dawned on me, she had that exact same problem when I was a kid...all the drama was UNnecessary and a way for her to get attention. As applied to the more recent issue, since she interrupted what was a long stretch of peace, I have refused to make amends and our rapport is more business-like than family-like. I once glanced through a book on the display tables at B&N about "forgiveness" and it said forgiveness has to be earned. If the same mistakes are repeated again and again, my feeling is that the person has not learned and is therefore not entitled to my forgiveness. Or...I can forgive, but don't need to forget.

Friends:

I have friends that I've had since I was in grammar school and have never had problems with them. No problems. I, however, have had some problems with friends who encroach on boundaries more than they should. They have been told "not to go there," but they don't listen. I have one friend (picture a Madeline Kahn upper face with a Margaret Thatcher lower face) who I let into my circle of friends because we were in the same line of work. She constantly tried to set me up on dates with friends of hers. I told her "no way," especially since she seems to toss out my "checklist," but she kept on trying, probably because she knows my "checklist" wouldn't include her, so that's her sick way of taking a jab at me. Most recently, she e-mailed we with the same M.O. (I started a thread on "boundaries"). I did not respond to her e-mail.

OTOH, a co-worker needs to find a HOUSE for me. He is addicted to risk and buying/selling (even if it's bad), so he needs to spread his misery. I have told him repeatedly to back off (and others around here also resent the fact that he's such an intrusive idiot) but he seems to forget the reminder he's been given. I will no longer go to lunch with him and keep him at a distance.

Bottom line for your situation:

We don't have enough information, nor are you expected to provide it. You know what the short-term and long-term impact of your actions might be. This is where most of your "weighing" ought to take place. I've taken a tougher stance and have fewer friends because of it, but I should have chased them away earlier. So, in my case, I am detaching from a parent who is addicted to drama (and I'm the opposite - completely into organization and logic) and a couple of friends who need to push their co-addict/co-dependent agendas down my throat. These are not big losses.

I know you can evaluate the cause and effect of your personal situation. However, it ain't easy, so I feel for you. Good luck with it.

[ocnblu]

Trust would be broken after the first transgression. It would take work on both sides to rebuild that. It depends on how big a part of my life they've become beforehand.

[balthazar]

Too tough to call on vagueries. Depends on the transgression and the importance to you that person commands.

Good luck w/ yer situation, CM, consider carefully before you undo what cannot be redone.

[capriceman]

more chances because they are family members

That's how I should feel but i don't.

Sadly, Its my daughter Erika, She in her 20's but now she is pregnant (don't know the father) and probably going to be in jail very shortly. I could get a good lawyer and all and probably get her to have just probation but, I don't feel like i should help her at all. She was excellent till about her junior year in high school. She always hated me but that's because I wasn't there. She was a humanitarian and I was a special forces trained killing machine. Lets say we clashed heads.

Its just heart breaking to watch but I feel like I have tried to set her straight so many times it might be time to disown.

[67impss]

Maybe tough love but your her father ya can't disown .

[ocnblu]

Somehow I hope she gains strength and learns from this. She is an adult.

[A Horse With No Name]

It depends greatly on what the hell you're talking about, and past behavior. I give second chances until it becomes apparent that there is a pattern of behavior afoot. Of course, it takes a while for me to trust someone to begin with, so most people get weeded out early.

Better words were never spoken!

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

That's how I should feel but i don't. Sadly, Its my daughter Erika, She in her 20's but now she is pregnant (don't know the father) and probably going to be in jail very shortly. I could get a good lawyer and all and probably get her to have just probation but, I don't feel like i should help her at all. She was excellent till about her junior year in high school. She always hated me but that's because I wasn't there. She was a humanitarian and I was a special forces trained killing machine. Lets say we clashed heads. Its just heart breaking to watch but I feel like I have tried to set her straight so many times it might be time to disown.

I don't know if I would disown. However, let her face the music for what she has done. That has worked wonders for all five of my children. As the leader of my eleven year olds Boy Scout troup says, Never do for a boy what he can do for himself.

Sounds like the same advice could go for your daughter as well.

Chris

[redtruck]

We had a situation along these lines at my home. My stepson and his girlfriend were arrested. We took in the 2 grandkids for a few weeks until they were bailed out by my stepdaughter. Then they skipped town and left her with the forfeiture of the bail for not showing up for court. They called after Christmas even though no one heard from them in months. We tricked them into coming to get the Christmas presents for the kids and they were arrested. This time they both spent a few months in jail while we had the grandkids again. I am not sure they changed any but they do seem to be keeping out of the legal system so far. My stepdaughter learned a lesson also but has her money back.

It might be better for her to spend a little time then she might appreciate her freedom and get back in line like I am sure you would prefer.

[capriceman]

I don't know if I would disown. However, let her face the music for what she has done. That has worked wonders for all five of my children. As the leader of my eleven year olds Boy Scout troup says, Never do for a boy what he can do for himself.

Sounds like the same advice could go for your daughter as well.

Chris

I know I can never disown... But I have tried that to let her deal with it she only digs further. Ive tried helping and she doesn't appreciate it. The worst is she thinks she blazing a new trail even though I already worn that path down. She thinks I know nothing and don't understand her problems. While I can admit im desensitized and dont know what its like to be female, I do understand and have been there. Ive tried to explain and show her in every way, sigh.

[A Horse With No Name]

Kids...when they are little they step on your toes, when they are big they step on your heart.

Just don't blame yourself. I've said this before but...

If you think your a good parent...have another kid, you'll think otherwise. If you think your a bad parent...have another kid, you'll think otherwise. Children make their own choices, sometimes there is nothing that you can do about it.

Just like my son's friend.

Chris

[trinacriabob]

Kids...when they are little they step on your toes, when they are big they step on your heart.

Chris, Every situation is different, just like fingerprints. I am sure you know this. For any of us to get to the bottom of the dynamics of a specific family constellation, it would take hours, which we don't have here.

With respect to my dynamics with my parents, there is a clear line of demarcation - they need to take responsibility before (insert a particular date) and I will take responsibility since (insert a particular date). That date differs for every child-rearing situation.

Parents are partly to blame and children are partly to blame. Whenever you have two people, each has their own agenda.

[Camino LS6]

The pregnancy complicates matters, there is an innocent involved...

[capriceman]

The pregnancy complicates matters, there is an innocent involved...

Excatly, That little guy doesn't deserve the life its going to probably live.

[Camino LS6]

Excatly, That little guy doesn't deserve the life its going to probably live.

Then are we really talking about a second chance?

[capriceman]

If you think your a good parent...have another kid, you'll think otherwise. If you think your a bad parent...have another kid, you'll think otherwise.

Well Erika was the second one, I had a Son before her and Mike was an excellent out standing citizen. He would give you the shirt of his back even if he didn't have one to give. Unfortunately, He is no longer with us.

I try not to bring personal stuff up because you guys probably don't care but this has been bothering me for a solid week on what I should do. I Talked to the court yesterday night and she has manged to tally up some charges including Felony drug possession, evading police, assaulting an officer, probation violation(s)...

I Think Im going to stay out of this one.

[capriceman]

Then are we really talking about a second chance?

No, not really.

[Camino LS6]

Maybe making the little guy the focus of your concern will lead you to the right course of action.

[capriceman]

Maybe making the little guy the focus of your concern will lead you to the right course of action.

I will try but the surrounding circumstances will probably interfere.

[Camino LS6]

I will try but the surrounding circumstances will probably interfere.

As long as that is the lens you look at it through, I think the answers will come to you.

I wish you well.

[trinacriabob]

the lens you look at it through

the answers will come to you.

Yes...

...the fine-tuning of the lens brings the answers

...frustratingly, this process can take some time...it has for me...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It depends greatly on what the hell you're talking about, and past behavior. I give second chances until it becomes apparent that there is a pattern of behavior afoot. Of course, it takes a while for me to trust someone to begin with, so most people get weeded out early.

+1

It is my personality to NOT give anyone a second chance. However, I know that I can be very judgmental as well.

So, as long as the offense isn't horrible, I'll cautiously give a second chance. Consider it a "probation" of sorts.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That's how I should feel but i don't.

Sadly, Its my daughter Erika, She in her 20's but now she is pregnant (don't know the father) and probably going to be in jail very shortly. I could get a good lawyer and all and probably get her to have just probation but, I don't feel like i should help her at all. She was excellent till about her junior year in high school. She always hated me but that's because I wasn't there. She was a humanitarian and I was a special forces trained killing machine. Lets say we clashed heads.

Its just heart breaking to watch but I feel like I have tried to set her straight so many times it might be time to disown.

I'm not a parent, so I can't put myself in those shoes.

BUT, I am a 20-something that has been through a lot. From my perspective, I think you should let her learn a lesson. She needs to wise up, especially since there is a kid on the way. A lot of my distant family is into Meth really bad. And they'll come back to the family supposedly "cleaned up" only to rip off and steal something else of cause more drama. I've often tried to put myself in their shoes and talked to my parents about it. I'm of the mindset that you make your own bed and so is my dad. However, my mom is one of the "your kid is always going to be your kid and you must help them" people.

The real issue here is the child. On one hand, I would say remove it from the situation. But on the other hand, the child can also serve as a catalyst for change and really teach people about what's important in life.

Not sure if any of that is good or helpful advice, just my :twocents:

Edited September 16, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[regfootball]

i would probably lean towards a direction (if there is one) to make your daughter go it alone this time. If you do this again, i don't know what will change in the future that will keep the behavior in check or improve your relationship.

While of course, simultaneously doing something to insure a better life for the little one.

Yeah i know its easy to make generalities.

i could relate some family stories probably but in truth i am still waiting to see how those unfold.

when it comes to this stuff, each situation is different and so complex and unpredictable. It just seems to me from what has been said here that no matter what you do to reach out and help and mend here it will probably backfire more than anything.

so its like a percent chance game. maybe the risk of losing is outweighed by what could be done? I mean, can things get that much worse?

what kills me are those who say we should legalize drugs. um no. far too many lives have been ruined with drugs to open the faucets on that one.

Edited September 16, 2009 by regfootball

[capriceman]

Last Night I kind of lost it.

Since this ordeal came up I allowed her to use the guest room since she was kicked out or something from where she was staying. and she wanted to pick a fight for something retarded like there was no soap in the bathroom. I was already not happy and I lost it told her how i really felt and kicked her out gave her $200 for a hotel room, and left Her with, "If your so damn brilliant why did you not realize this door has always been open and will always be open for you. but, until you change your life style and think about what really matters in your life I don't have to let you back in. I wish you well dear but, I have a feeling you will continue to be a disappointment to your mother and me."

I feel bad but I hope it sinks in and she can always come back for help if she changes. The damage is already done I guess. The worst thing is now Kim (wife) is mad at me as well because she thinks I took it to far and was to extreme. I will have to explain to her were I was coming from. however I think and know I did the wrong thing but its possible it ended up being the right thing? I guess time will tell if old habits remain. Last night me and Kim did talk about if Mike was still around it would be so much easier because she looked up to him and would listen to him. Kim brought up that since he was killed in Iraq a few years back that Erika's life has been a downward spiral. She protested him going or having anything to do with it and I'm starting to think if its a direct relation and if she just gave up on being successful in life and had a fear of never being happy. If that's true then I would feel so bad for what I did and would wonder why she never told us the way she felt. There is so much untold here though and that can influence perspective a lot. I just wish I could be better at that "communication" stuff.

[capriceman]

+1

It is my personality to NOT give anyone a second chance. However, I know that I can be very judgmental as well.

So, as long as the offense isn't horrible, I'll cautiously give a second chance. Consider it a "probation" of sorts.

If she does come back I will give her a chance if I can see change, and there will be some rules laid out.

[capriceman]

i would probably lean towards a direction (if there is one) to make your daughter go it alone this time. If you do this again, i don't know what will change in the future that will keep the behavior in check or improve your relationship.

While of course, simultaneously doing something to insure a better life for the little one.

Yeah i know its easy to make generalities.

i could relate some family stories probably but in truth i am still waiting to see how those unfold.

when it comes to this stuff, each situation is different and so complex and unpredictable. It just seems to me from what has been said here that no matter what you do to reach out and help and mend here it will probably backfire more than anything.

so its like a percent chance game. maybe the risk of losing is outweighed by what could be done? I mean, can things get that much worse?

what kills me are those who say we should legalize drugs. um no. far too many lives have been ruined with drugs to open the faucets on that one.

truer words never spoken.

[regfootball]

Last Night I kind of lost it.

Since this ordeal came up I allowed her to use the guest room since she was kicked out or something from where she was staying. and she wanted to pick a fight for something retarded like there was no soap in the bathroom. I was already not happy and I lost it told her how i really felt and kicked her out gave her $200 for a hotel room, and left Her with, "If your so damn brilliant why did you not realize this door has always been open and will always be open for you. but, until you change your life style and think about what really matters in your life I don't have to let you back in. I wish you well dear but, I have a feeling you will continue to be a disappointment to your mother and me."

I feel bad but I hope it sinks in and she can always come back for help if she changes. The damage is already done I guess. The worst thing is now Kim (wife) is mad at me as well because she thinks I took it to far and was to extreme. I will have to explain to her were I was coming from. however I think and know I did the wrong thing but its possible it ended up being the right thing? I guess time will tell if old habits remain. Last night me and Kim did talk about if Mike was still around it would be so much easier because she looked up to him and would listen to him. Kim brought up that since he was killed in Iraq a few years back that Erika's life has been a downward spiral. She protested him going or having anything to do with it and I'm starting to think if its a direct relation and if she just gave up on being successful in life and had a fear of never being happy. If that's true then I would feel so bad for what I did and would wonder why she never told us the way she felt. There is so much untold here though and that can influence perspective a lot. I just wish I could be better at that "communication" stuff.

at the same time, as deeply as it affects her, its not an excuse to break the law and have socially destructive behavior.

but at least wow, something to start as a talking point to patch this up someday.

here is the thing, even if you reacted, it was a reflection of how you really feel and you can't make that stuff up. she needed to know how you felt one way or the other. you certainly can change that feeling over time, but i think to be honest about how you feel is as important as 'what move you make' in the chess match.

and why do we always have to blame somebody for something bad happening? sometimes things occur and happen in life and its not a direct cause / effect all the time from someone else we want to assign the blame to.

[capriceman]

and why do we always have to blame somebody for something bad happening? sometimes things occur and happen in life and its not a direct cause / effect all the time from someone else we want to assign the blame to.

I think that its because we think the people we love are infallible and we directly associate any problem on something other than them. Hell, I will admit that sometimes I think I am infallible, that no matter what I do it will be the "right" thing and boy have i been wrong. lol.

[regfootball]

one of my siblings assigns complete and entire blame for all wrong with her life and others on to my parents.

as if they were made of perfection and had never ending resources. it's good to show people imperfection, but back it up with support and love. then at least reality is easier to cope with.

[Robert Hall]

one of my siblings assigns complete and entire blame for all wrong with her life and others on to my parents.

I've heard that in my own family...a sibling that attributes basically all that was good to our late father, and all that is bad to our mother. There is some degree of truth to it, but once you are out of the house and on your own--college and beyond--you make your own choices in life, good or bad..can't blame anyone but yourself at the point and beyond, IMHO. Blaming everything on your childhood and a repressed, conservative emotionally distant mother only goes so far...

My own family has had plenty enough of it's own drama over the years, enough to convince me I have no need to have children.

Of my 2 siblings and myself, the one that is definitely the most f*cked up is the one that isn't taking any meds... the other and myself have our prescription anti-depressants and sleeping pills going on..

Putting the fun in dysfunctional.

Rob

Edited September 17, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[deftonesfan867]

We actually DO care Caprice.

C'mon man you put up with my constant missing of Nycole and never complained.

As for the situation with your daughter, that really sucks man. However it appears that she's going to have to learn how life really is on her own. You've already told her that you and her mother are both there for her.

Sometimes the harsh reality of life often brings us to our senses. Hopefully this is what happens for her.

[trinacriabob]

My own family has had plenty enough of it's own drama over the years, enough to convince me I have no need to have children.

Of my 2 siblings and myself, the one that is definitely the most f*cked up is the one that isn't taking any meds... the other and myself have our prescription anti-depressants and sleeping pills going on..

Yes, on the part about kids.

Yes, on the meds...Ambien ROCKS.

Seriously, Capriceman, we do care. The introduction of the granchild into the equation makes this a lot tougher. You might have to leave the door open (especially for the kid) and she needs to knock on it, on terms that aren't hers, but a good middle ground for both parties.

Then, with all this anger, is she in therapy? Self-destructive behaviors are a big red flag for therapy (or TE-RA-PEE, as Dr. Ruth would say). But, be careful, when people are told they need to be in therapy, they either get angrier or further into denial.

[capriceman]

Sometimes the harsh reality of life often brings us to our senses. Hopefully this is what happens for her.

I really hope so!

[daves87rs]

Wow.

I say you gotta just let her do her own thing. It's kinda of the same issue I have with someone in my family.

If they don't learn now, they may never learn. I have to say you did the right thing, even if it went a bit too far, and even if Kim is mad at you. If you don't speak your mind, you might just go crazy.

Of course, living in MI right now is not helping either.....

I think the hardest part is thinking about the little guy (also going to be an issue with the wife as the birth draws near). But I think all you really can do is hope and pray. This is hard for me, w/ my 16 month old....

Hopefully being a mother will help dawn some things on her and open her eyes, as she really can't think about herself anymore. (we hope)

I'm praying things work out for you. Sounds like you and I need a good, cold beer!

[capriceman]

Seriously, Capriceman, we do care. The introduction of the granchild into the equation makes this a lot tougher. You might have to leave the door open (especially for the kid) and she needs to knock on it, on terms that aren't hers, but a good middle ground for both parties.

Then, with all this anger, is she in therapy? Self-destructive behaviors are a big red flag for therapy (or TE-RA-PEE, as Dr. Ruth would say). But, be careful, when people are told they need to be in therapy, they either get angrier or further into denial.

We will have to tell her that we will help the child for sure. Although, she was thinking abortion/adoption but its not my body or kid so i wont have any influence on that. she is 2-3 months in i think. I honestly didn't know until Kim said " your boobs look great, are you pregnant?" Erika then just nodded. I started to laugh because of how it was said so randomly.

Im not a big fan of mental therapy because I had to go through a bunch of it. and all it did was make me relive things again. and as Clint Eastwood said in Gran Torino "There isn't a god damn day I don't think about it!" However, We can always suggest it and Im willing to do anything for her.

Thanks guys I really appreciate the thoughts and feedback as hopefully they will result im a turnaround of someone I hold dear to my heart. Thanks.

[regfootball]

Yes, on the part about kids.

Yes, on the meds...Ambien ROCKS.

Seriously, Capriceman, we do care. The introduction of the granchild into the equation makes this a lot tougher. You might have to leave the door open (especially for the kid) and she needs to knock on it, on terms that aren't hers, but a good middle ground for both parties.

Then, with all this anger, is she in therapy? Self-destructive behaviors are a big red flag for therapy (or TE-RA-PEE, as Dr. Ruth would say). But, be careful, when people are told they need to be in therapy, they either get angrier or further into denial.

the second part of this is so true. there are some folks i know or have encountered that not only are mean hypocrites about others behavior, and think they are righteous, when in fact they are self hating and self destructive and just use others to push the blame of their life onto others.

and they really would benefit from a THE rapist. the honest therapists tell it like it is. I know one person who each time this person bails on a new therapist is when the therapist calls them to be responsible and own up to whatever part of the problem they are causing and making worse. Yet these are the people who are most vehemently blaming others.

i almost think everyone can use a little therapy from time to time but i guess that is called 'happy hour' and piggybacks on bob's co-worker thread. lol

Edited September 18, 2009 by regfootball