Isn't it illegal?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Weighing slightly above 3800lbs, I guess the CTS-V's economy makes a bit more sense. But apart from economy, I keep hearing just how light and small the LS2 engine is, so if that's the case, why all the porkiness in the CTS-V? The 6 speed stick and upgraded brakes I doubt added that much weight.

[post="65476"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The LS6 that was used in the CTS-V was only 62lbs heavier than the 3.2L all aluminum V6 in the base CTS. The difference in weight IS due to the tranny, bigger brakes, stronger rear end, etc.
Your attacks on the LSx engines are unfounded.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Also exhaust differences between the Lexus and the Toyota will make up some of that difference also. I doubt Lexus uses the same exhaust as the Camry. Just look at the 3.6L from the CTS to the LaCrosse, 260hp vs. 240hp. Same engine, different ratings. And to lose 20hp due to switching from 91 to 87 is crazy for that engine. It is not a high compression, high performance engine, that would really need higher octane fuel. The engine would have to pull ~10 degrees of timing to lose 20hp. If thats the case, why cant the almighty Toyota design an engine that doesn't detonate with regular fuel? GM does it with the 3.9L "ancient pushrod" and still gets 240hp. Your posts seem more like Toyota is paying you, than objective. I have never seen you say a bad thing about a Toyota, and every post I see from you is defending the almighty Toyota, and putting down GM. Hence my question in the other thread. Oh, and that 240hp from the 3.9 is SAE certified. Please stop making excuses for Toyota. Edited December 31, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[pow]

Also exhaust differences between the Lexus and the Toyota will make up some of that difference also. I doubt Lexus uses the same exhaust as the Camry. Just look at the 3.6L from the CTS to the LaCrosse, 260hp vs. 240hp. Same engine, different ratings.
And to lose 20hp due to switching from 91 to 87 is crazy for that engine. It is not a high compression, high performance engine, that would really need higher octane fuel. The engine would have to pull ~10 degrees of timing to lose 20hp. If thats the case, why cant the almighty Toyota design an engine that doesn't detonate with regular fuel? GM does it with the 3.9L "ancient pushrod" and still gets 240hp.
Your posts seem more like Toyota is paying you, than objective. I have never seen you say a bad thing about a Toyota, and every post I see from you is defending the almighty Toyota, and putting down GM. Hence my question in the other thread.

[post="65518"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not "20hp" but 8 horses sounds reasonable. And Toyota makes 3.5L 269 hp mainstream engines that do not detonate with regular fuel. I'm sure GM can, too, if they bothered.

[sciguy_0504]

The new SAE ratings, combined in tandem with lower octane fuel caused the drop.

[post="65474"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[Guest gmrebirth]

You're looking at that statement in the wrong way. If a car requires 91 octane, it's because its compression ratio, timing, or other variable require it. If you use less than the required octane, the knock sensor will have the ECM retard the timing, to prevent knocking (preignition).

If a car requires 87 octane, if you use a higher octane rated fuel, it will not increase performance. The only circumstances under which using a higher rated octane than the manufacturer suggests to increase performance, is if the manufacturer made a mistake and rated it too low to begin with.

The Camry probably does not have the same engine as its Lexus counterpart. The Lexus probably has a better flowing head, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, etc. It probably has changes in its timing and c/r to increase power (which is why it requires higher octane rated gasoline). Why they both rated the same before the new SAE standards, I don't know.

[post="65498"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Here's where you're wrong. I ALREADY posted that the ES330 and Camry V6 both used to have the SAME listed power, because they BOTH previously were tested with premium.

Toyota "recommends" premium for the Camry SE V6, and "requires" premium for the Lexus ES330. The difference is that Toyota retested most of their engines under the new SAE guidelines, AND under regular fuel. It makes sense for mass market mainstream cars to be tested under regular fuel to avoid confusion. Premium fuel should only be reserved for luxury or high performance car testing.

I personally wouldn't try to run regular fuel in a Lexus ES330, but I will bet anyone that the car will run fine with regular fuel, but will simply have lower performance. Seeing as the Camry SE V6 has the SAME engine, running higher octane WILL increase performance.

Did you forget what I said about the knock sensors in Toyota's 3.3L V6 to be overly sensitive?

You're telling me "maybe" and "possibly" and I'm telling you how it is. Is it really hard to believe that Toyota's knock sensors are overly sensitive, and that the ES330 and Camry SE V6 both have the same engine?

The Lexus does not have a diffferent head, or intake manifold, or etc. It's the SAME engine, with the *only* differences possibly being timing.

[Guest gmrebirth]

I think what gmrebirth is suggesting is that the 3.3 V6 runs best on premium fuel, thus the 218 hp on Lexus models, but Toyota "recommends" only regular for the 210 hp Camry. I remember Honda offered two horsepower numbers (210 vs 205) for the 99-01 Odyssey -- one for premium, one for regular.

[post="65502"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Exactly. That was my point.

[Guest gmrebirth]

The Lexus runs best on premium fuel, because it uses more aggressive timing, C/R, piston design, etc. Toyota recommends regular for the 210 hp Camry because they designed it to run off of regular (87 octane).

This is very common. Generally someone who is buying a Lexus will have more cash or won't mind paying more for fuel. The Toyota on the other hand, will appeal to a lot more buyers who do not want to spend anymore than they have to at the pump. The required fuel is often times a selling point between two very similar cars, as it effects the overall ownership cost of the car.

The Lexus will be faster due to the modifications to the engine, but will require a higher octane rated fuel. It does not matter that they are the same displacement or have a similar engine code.
Just because a manufacturer gives an engine a similar engine code, does not mean it is similar. Honda has 3 different versions of their k20 engines (all 2.0L) ranging from 160-220hp. You wouldn't know the difference unless you looked at the whole engine code and knew the difference between k20a, k20a2, and k20a3.

"Minor tuning" can account for those big differences in same-displacement engines. Like I said above, differences in intake, exhaust manifold, head design, timing, compression ratio (the higher end models usually require higher octane), and when a VVT mechanism is involved, the differences can be even more. In Honda's case, they have two very different versions of their vtec mechanism. One aimed at economy and one aimed at performance. You can guess which engines get which version  :)

[post="65504"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Again, it's the *same* engine, and whether in the Camry or in the ES330, the 3.3L V6 runs *best* on premium fuel.

The Lexus is not any faster because there are no notable engine differences. You seem to simply be guessing out of the blue. The ES330 and Camry SE V6 have about the same performance.

Yes, I realize that about engines, and truth be told, Toyota also has different "versions" of it's 3.3L V6. The Highlander/RX330/Sienna all have a slightly more powerful 3.3L V6 compared to the ES/Camry. But the ES and Camry have the SAME engine.

Different head designs and different VVT mechanisms *usually* indicate different engine codes.

Show me proof that Nissan's VQ differs notably when in the Quest compared to the G35 or 350Z.

I brought this up because with the release of the IS350, a lot of people have been asking questions. G35 and IS350 are about similar weight, and supposedly have very similar power, yet a 6 speed manual G35 sedan is slower than a 6 speed IS350 automatic by over half a second to 60 and in the 1/4 mile.

Either Toyota underrated the IS350, or Nissan overrated the VQ35DE in the G35. Most people right now are leaning towards the idea that Nissan overrated the VQ.

[Guest gmrebirth]

The LS6 that was used in the CTS-V was only 62lbs heavier than the 3.2L all aluminum V6 in the base CTS. The difference in weight IS due to the tranny, bigger brakes, stronger rear end, etc.
Your attacks on the LSx engines are unfounded.

[post="65512"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

They weren't directed at you. My attacks to be honest are slightly off-topic. I was simply angered from earlier debates with Corvette owners who think the LSx engines are the second coming of Christ. I calmly pointed out to them that the LSx engines do not get godly economy in all cases, but they were on deaf ears.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Also exhaust differences between the Lexus and the Toyota will make up some of that difference also. I doubt Lexus uses the same exhaust as the Camry. Just look at the 3.6L from the CTS to the LaCrosse, 260hp vs. 240hp. Same engine, different ratings.
And to lose 20hp due to switching from 91 to 87 is crazy for that engine. It is not a high compression, high performance engine, that would really need higher octane fuel. The engine would have to pull ~10 degrees of timing to lose 20hp. If thats the case, why cant the almighty Toyota design an engine that doesn't detonate with regular fuel? GM does it with the 3.9L "ancient pushrod" and still gets 240hp.
Your posts seem more like Toyota is paying you, than objective. I have never seen you say a bad thing about a Toyota, and every post I see from you is defending the almighty Toyota, and putting down GM. Hence my question in the other thread.

Oh, and that 240hp from the 3.9 is SAE certified.
Please stop making excuses for Toyota.

[post="65518"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

VERY unlikely that the ES330 has a more performance-oriented exhaust compared to the Camry SE V6. Think about this *logically* for a second. The ES330 is all about luxury and comfort. The Camry SE V6 is supposed to be the "sporty" Camry, so using logic, you'd think that the Camry would have a more aggressive exhaust.

It is not crazy when the knock sensors are extremely sensitive, and way too overeager.

Excuse me, what excuses? The 218HP and 236 lb-ft of torque in the ES330 is SAE rated under the new guidelines.

As opposed to many of you, I am objective because I can see the truth, and post objectively about things. If the truth means that Toyota did not lie, but simply that their listed power ratings were misinterpreted, then so be it. If the truth means that Toyota looks good, and it makes GM look bad, then so be it. I won't twist the truth in order to make GM look good every step of the way. This is what got GM to the crisis it is in now; complacency, ignorance, and a blind eye to the competition and to the long-term future. I am not that sympathetic to GM because they are in this situation largely due to their own incompetence from previous years. Import makers are simply playing the game of capitalism. That is why the government won't help the domestic automakers, because that would go against the idea of a capitalist nation and a free market economy. In capitalism, if you can't compete, then you die out and dissapear. It's survival of the fittest in a way, which promotes constant competition and a creative influx of new ideas.

Yes, the LSx engines are great, and they get good economy in the Vette, but ONLY in the Vette. I never knocked the LSx engines, I simply knocked the flawed notion that they can get godly economy in any application.

Putting down GM? Do you assume that, or did you guess that? Assumptions lead to nowhere, and never do much good.

You seem to be overly defensive and keep talking about Toyota in instances where I never mention Toyota.

Toyota has nothing to do with my discussion about the LSx engines. Edited December 31, 2005 by gmrebirth

[Guest gmrebirth]

And to lose 20hp due to switching from 91 to 87 is crazy for that engine. 
Please stop making excuses for Toyota.

"The new SAE ratings, combined in tandem with lower octane fuel caused the drop."

So, like I said, that 20HP drop did not come from octane ALONE ... the 20HP drop is the total of switching from premium to regular fuel, AND the drop experienced from the new SAE standards.

[Cory Wolfe]

Show me proof that Nissan's VQ differs notably when in the Quest compared to the G35 or 350Z.

I brought this up because with the release of the IS350, a lot of people have been asking questions. G35 and IS350 are about similar weight, and supposedly have very similar power, yet a 6 speed manual G35 sedan is slower than a 6 speed IS350 automatic by over half a second to 60 and in the 1/4 mile.

Either Toyota underrated the IS350, or Nissan overrated the VQ35DE in the G35. Most people right now are leaning towards the idea that Nissan overrated the VQ.

[post="65627"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Have you ever considered different gearing? Differences in traction? Differences in weight distribution? All that and how automatic transmissions can be faster than a manual transmission? Case in point... the auto equipped GTO is faster than one with a manual. I highly doubt the VQ is overrated.

As opposed to many of you, I am objective because I can see the truth, and post objectively about things. If the truth means that Toyota did not lie, but simply that their listed power ratings were misinterpreted, then so be it. If the truth means that Toyota looks good, and it makes GM look bad, then so be it. I won't twist the truth in order to make GM look good every step of the way. This is what got GM to the crisis it is in now; complacency, ignorance, and a blind eye to the competition and to the long-term future. I am not that sympathetic to GM because they are in this situation largely due to their own incompetence from previous years. Import makers are simply playing the game of capitalism. That is why the government won't help the domestic automakers, because that would go against the idea of a capitalist nation and a free market economy. In capitalism, if you can't compete, then you die out and dissapear. It's survival of the fittest in a way, which promotes constant competition and a creative influx of new ideas.

Putting down GM? Do you assume that, or did you guess that? Assumptions lead to nowhere, and never do much good. 

[post="65632"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No offense, but I have a few questions for you that I feel I have to ask. Have you ever said anything positive about GM since you have joined? If so, can you show me proof? Why did you join in the first place? I ask that because I have not seen you say anything positive about GM. You always seem to put down GM. I mean, I can understand being objective as some people around here act like GM can do no bad, etc. That's obviously incorrect as GM had, and still has, many problems and such. But can you honestly say you are being objective when you can never seem to say anything other than negative comments towards GM? Even if you have, which I doubt at this point, it would be a small percentage of your total posts. Why is this so? Again, I'm not trying to offend, but we've had so many trolls around here that can do nothing but bash GM... It pisses me off, quite frankly, and you have the qualities of one. :huh:

[siegen]

Is it really hard to believe that Toyota's knock sensors are overly sensitive, and that the ES330 and Camry SE V6 both have the same engine?

[post="65620"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes it is. Maybe my expectations of Toyota are too high.

[razoredge]

The LS engines are godly.......no one would have ever thought we could get that kind of usuable power again out of a huge PR engine that would also be so efficient.

8 out of ten times the LS powered Daytona prototypes smoke 4.5 v8 Lexus powered prototypes. Its good competition and its great to be a GM man and see GM succede in this highly competitive road race series against the worlds greatest engine manufactures.

I appreaciate the work, research and knowledge everyone put in this thread, GM "rebirth" included.

Many I believe including myself might be missing the proper information as to the various tunability of these high feature engines. With all this variable valve timing and valve lift and duration and ignition timing and fuel delivery the perimeters of the engine control systems can be tuned to offer entirely different performance levels for the same engine.

However I think GM rebirth needs to reread many posts and spend some time thinking before writting many many more paragraphs. You have almost gone entirely in a full circle and really are bordering on twilight zone material. In regards to the Toyota engine I beleive you have one post there that states use of regular gas is correct and you have another that states use of 91 or better is proper. You also still continue to disregard the post that says all cars are/were tested using 91 octane.

I also wonder if Toyota is all that then why cant the design a proper knock sensor ?

I also want to know why if these Toyota and other import engines require high octane they are not classified as "high performance" engines and why do they have their rateings compared to GM's low compression regular gas burning typical production engines ? That siad once again I would like to point out that GM's "high performance" V6, the always bashed SC 3800 has had numbers more impressive than these Toyota V6's for a whole decade.....so I have to ask......whats all the buzz ? and whats with all the negitivism on this GM website.

This is what got GM to the crisis it is in now; complacency, ignorance, and a blind eye to the competition and to the long-term future. I am not that sympathetic to GM because they are in this situation largely due to their own incompetence from previous years. Import makers are simply playing the game of capitalism. That is why the government won't help the domestic automakers, because that would go against the idea of a capitalist nation and a free market economy. In capitalism, if you can't compete, then you die out and dissapear. It's survival of the fittest in a way, which promotes constant competition and a creative influx of new ideas.

I would not bring this up but it had to show its ugly face so......... into the fire

Do you have any clue as to the wants and desires of American car buyers during this time period of transition since the early 70's ? Can you possibly concieve the difference in approach to the automobiel at US standards compared to Europe and Asia. It was a huge machine of both manufactureing and consumer wants that needed to be turned around. Domestic auto makers tried to be all things to all markets while anything across the waters only needed to improve what they were already doing. GM was damned when they did and damned when they didnt, just think about it. Here we needed to rethink, downsize, reclimatize, adjust...you names it. I believe its bullshit to call it complacency and ignorance, Domestics have had people on both sides pulling on their arms. I could write pages about the transition and how it was met by the mass buying American public.....thats your blind eye right there, you can not see the whole picture of how all this came to be. You simply want to blame it on " incompetence from previous years" or our American labor force. Acting like nothing decent ever came out of the American auto industry, nothing was ever spent on developement or tecnology. Bologna ! You too have a blind eye ! Theres no blind eyes here, just hope and team spirit.......I dont like your team.

As for your stupid and I mean STUPID capitolistic views........ if capitolism is so frigin great.....how come we have all our airlines going bankrupt ?.......how come bankrupcy lawyers are in the most profitable business in the USA ? and how can you have a "global" capitolistic system in place in this country when clearly the economics of all other countries we are forcing our laborers to compete with live in a far cheaper and far more primitive socioty...People like you that want to turn the clocks back in the US to the days prior to the great depression make me sick.........I though we were an advanced socioty ? What is it we are so advanced at.........shooting ourselfs in the foot and not missing ? Humping foreigners and their products and economies then bitching about our declining industries, local economies and ever expanding inner city insanity ?

You get back what you give for investment, you wanna invest your money and efforts into promoting foreign products and foriegn welfare, live with yourself and at the same time you better learn to live with those like me that believe in our own people and products and economies.

Im so faulking sick of hearing about free economies and globalization.....I COULD JUST SCREAM !!!!!!!

[sciguy_0504]

Razor, if you despise capitalism so much Cuba's only 90 minutes from Florida. I hear it's a great place. :rolleyes: Ask yourself, "why are some airlines going bankrupt?" Compare Southwest Airlines (very profitable) versus United Airlines (not profitable) and you'll have your answer. You saw how "cheap" it is to live in Tokyo or Seoul and I highly doubt those cities are "primative." In any case, if we ignore foreign companies and goods we'll eventually fall behind in all areas (no, we're not now) and end up with crappy goods. We could place a 50% tariff on all foreign cars and, in turn, the rest of the world would do it to us. You're not really accomplishing much.

[Flybrian]

Moreover, this capitalism vs. whatever debate has nothing to do with the real topic at hand. More tangents here than a 10th grade geometry book.

[razoredge]

Razor, if you despise capitalism so much Cuba's only 90 minutes from Florida.  I hear it's a great place. :rolleyes:

Ask yourself, "why are some airlines going bankrupt?"  Compare Southwest Airlines (very profitable) versus United Airlines (not profitable) and you'll have your answer.  You saw how "cheap" it is to live in Tokyo or Seoul and I highly doubt those cities are "primative."  In any case, if we ignore foreign companies and goods we'll eventually fall behind in all areas (no, we're not now) and end up with crappy goods.  We could place a 50% tariff on all foreign cars and, in turn, the rest of the world would do it to us.  You're not really accomplishing much.

[post="65736"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I despise the abuse of capitolism, which is what we have going on in this country currently with the "global economy" smokescreen. You have not had the carpet pulled out from under your feet, you have not had 20-30 years of your dedicated life flushed down the toilet so a handfull of already wealthy "investors" could further capitolize on cheap foreign labor.

Do not throw some stupid Cuba wildcard in my face, how immature and inconsiderate.

We have crappy good now and have had for the decades since "Made in japan" Made in China" Made in Malaysia" "Made in turkey" have adorned our store shelves, I have old American manufactured products here in my shop and the lasting quality baffels the mind compared to the desposable junk that is today, which I also have in my shop.

No, we will fall behind because we are buying foreign goods leaving the Domestic no money for reinvestment and the working population no decent jobs to build a future for their familys. Then when there is money for reinvestment we hand millions over to our "corporate"LEADERS"" See Rick Wagners bonus's just one year ago. I am fully aware of all that as well as all that you say.....question is are you aware of all that I say ? No you only see through this tiny little window that is today, not the big picture that got us to today and beyond into the future.

[Flybrian]

Again, I look back at the first post in this thread about Toyota fuel economy/horsepower inconsistancies and wonder why globalization and a free market system have anything to do with that? If anyone's having trouble, perhaps looking at the first post and title of the thread will aid in figuring out what to post and what to save for some other time and place...

[razoredge]

thanks for identifing the many tangents, that is a very good way of looking at it. There are so many tangents evolving around this "new" way of taking care of America, but the thing is they really do have to do with the topics at hand, and thats money for investment to get the products that will make these harpers stop harping. I personally would rather not get into them myself, until my fellow countrymen are insulted for being the root of all evil.

[siegen]

the worlds greatest engine manufactures.

I don't consider Toyota a great engine manufacturer. They can build high tech advanced engines, they have the technology (like their F1 engines), but they choose the more cost-effective route instead. If gmrebirth is correct, and they put the same damn engine into their Camry and Lexus car, then that is a perfect example of this.

[sciguy_0504]

That same engine is in the Camry, Camry Solara, ES330, Highlander and RX330. I'm guessing the 3.5L they just came out with will be even more popular.

[ftmjohn]

Do you have any clue as to the wants and desires of American car buyers during this time period of transition since the early 70's ? Can you possibly concieve the difference in approach to the automobiel at US standards compared to Europe and Asia. It was a huge machine of both manufactureing and consumer wants that needed to be turned around. Domestic auto makers tried to be all things to all markets while anything across the waters only needed to improve what they were already doing. GM was damned when they did and damned when they didnt, just think about it. Here we needed to rethink, downsize, reclimatize, adjust...you names it. I believe its bullshit to call it complacency and ignorance, Domestics have had people on both sides pulling on their arms. I could write pages about the transition and how it was met by the mass buying American public.....thats your blind eye right there, you can not see the whole picture of how all this came to be. You simply want to blame it on " incompetence from previous years" or our American labor force. Acting like nothing decent ever came out of the American auto industry, nothing was ever spent on developement or tecnology. Bologna ! You too have a blind eye ! Theres no blind eyes here, just hope and team spirit.......I dont like your team.

As for your stupid and I mean STUPID capitolistic views........ if capitolism is so frigin great.....how come we have all our airlines going bankrupt ?.......how come bankrupcy lawyers are in the most profitable business in the USA ? and how can you have a "global" capitolistic system in place in this country when clearly the economics of all other countries we are forcing our laborers to compete with live in a far cheaper and far more primitive socioty...People like you that want to turn the clocks back in the US to the days prior to the great depression make me sick.........I though we were an advanced socioty ? What is it we are so advanced at.........shooting ourselfs in the foot and not missing ? Humping foreigners and their products and economies then bitching about our declining industries, local economies and ever expanding inner city insanity ?

You get back what you give for investment, you wanna invest your money and efforts into promoting foreign products and foriegn welfare, live with yourself and at the same time you better learn to live with those like me that believe in our own people and products and economies.

Im so faulking sick of hearing about free economies and globalization.....I COULD JUST SCREAM !!!!!!!

[post="65727"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do you think it is normal that 80% of the world's ressources and wealth is held by 20% of the world's population? I think that it is just normal that the rest of the third world countries are catching up and claming what is rightly due.

I think most americans dont remember what it is being poor and having nothing to loose. Those that were around in the early 30's will tell you how it was and how much this society has forgotten those times. The days of over spending, over comsuption of natural ressources for useless things are changing, and the rest of the world will be catching up forcing alot of people to rethink there life style. This type of society of not going to stay for long, so be prepared.

Flame on!

John

[Flybrian]

Do you think it is normal that 80% of the world's ressources and wealth is held by 20% of the world's population? I think that it is just normal that the rest of the third world countries are catching up and claming what is rightly due.

I think most americans dont remember what it is being poor and having nothing to loose. Those that were around in the early 30's will tell you how it was and how much this society has forgotten those times. The days of over spending, over comsuption of natural ressources for useless things are changing, and the rest of the world will be catching up forcing alot of people to rethink there life style.  This type of society of not going to stay for long, so be prepared.

Flame on!

John

[post="66409"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Did you not read the two posts by me calling this conversation back on topic from global economics to inaccuracy in hp/mpg figures?

You were banned once for reigniting arguments after they were settled, want to go for two?

[sciguy_0504]

No debates, period.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Have you ever considered different gearing? Differences in traction? Differences in weight distribution? All that and how automatic transmissions can be faster than a manual transmission? Case in point... the auto equipped GTO is faster than one with a manual. I highly doubt the VQ is overrated.

No offense, but I have a few questions for you that I feel I have to ask. Have you ever said anything positive about GM since you have joined? If so, can you show me proof? Why did you join in the first place? I ask that because I have not seen you say anything positive about GM. You always seem to put down GM. I mean, I can understand being objective as some people around here act like GM can do no bad, etc. That's obviously incorrect as GM had, and still has, many problems and such. But can you honestly say you are being objective when you can never seem to say anything other than negative comments towards GM? Even if you have, which I doubt at this point, it would be a small percentage of your total posts. Why is this so? Again, I'm not trying to offend, but we've had so many trolls around here that can do nothing but bash GM... It pisses me off, quite frankly, and you have the qualities of one. :huh:

[post="65671"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Differences in gearing? Considering the 6 speed auto in the IS350 is geared for economy, I'd expect the manual G35 to be faster. Both the G35 and IS350 have similar weight distributions, and similar curb weights.

All other factors being equal, the only other variable that can explain the performance gap, like I said, is that either the IS350's 2GR is underrated, or the VQ in the G35 is overrated.

Honestly, there isn't a whole lot I can say that's good about GM. They are improving indeed, but the biggest problems, like the corporate structure, still remain. The UAW problem and health care issues still remain. Yes GM is improving, but the competition is not standing still.

For GM to once again become competitive, the corporate structure needs to RADICALLY change, and the company needs to become leaner. The only way I can see this occuring within a relatively short time frame is if GM files for bankruptcy and a "rebirth" occurs at GM, a new company emerging from the ashes, much more competitive than before. Big problems need big solutions.

Bankruptcy would be harsh no doubt for many many people, but in the LONG LONG run, it will greatly help GM.

Look at the market: the chinese automakers are beginning to emerge and have their sights on the US and international markets, the Koreans are improving tremendously every day, and the Japanese continue their dominance and further reach into every market segment out there.

At it's current rate of improvement, I honestly don't think GM will be able to compete very well. Look at Toyota, their execs are scared stiff about Korean and Chinese competition, and Toyota as a company is operating as if it's in crisis. In fact, Toyota seems more worried about the competition than GM, and Toyota is currently making huge profits and about to release many new models. To me, that shows that Chinese and Korean competition will be extremely fierce in the future, and GM needs to radically change right NOW, while they still have a decent chance.

[Guest gmrebirth]

The LS engines are godly.......no one would have ever thought we could get that kind of usuable power again out of a huge PR engine that would also be so efficient.

8 out of ten times the LS powered Daytona prototypes smoke 4.5 v8 Lexus powered prototypes. Its good competition and its great to be a GM man and see GM succede in this highly competitive road race series against the worlds greatest engine manufactures.

I appreaciate the work, research and knowledge everyone put in this thread, GM "rebirth" included.

Many I believe including myself might be missing the proper information as to the various tunability of these high feature engines. With all this variable valve timing and valve lift and duration and ignition timing and fuel delivery the perimeters of the engine control systems can be tuned to offer entirely different performance levels for the same engine.

However I think GM rebirth needs to reread many posts and spend some time thinking before writting many many more paragraphs. You have almost gone entirely in a full circle and really are bordering on twilight zone material. In regards to the Toyota engine I beleive you have one post there that states use of regular gas is correct and you have another that states use of 91 or better is proper. You also still continue to disregard the post that says all cars are/were tested using 91 octane.

I also wonder if Toyota is all that then why cant the design a proper knock sensor ?

I also want to know why if these Toyota and other import engines require high octane they are not classified as "high performance" engines and why do they have their rateings compared to GM's low compression regular gas burning typical production engines ? That siad once again I would like to point out that GM's "high performance" V6, the always bashed SC 3800 has had numbers more impressive than these Toyota V6's for a whole decade.....so I have to ask......whats all the buzz ? and whats with all the negitivism on this GM website.
I would not bring this up but it had to show its ugly face so......... into the fire

Do you have any clue as to the wants and desires of American car buyers during this time period of transition since the early 70's ? Can you possibly concieve the difference in approach to the automobiel at US standards compared to Europe and Asia. It was a huge machine of both manufactureing and consumer wants that needed to be turned around. Domestic auto makers tried to be all things to all markets while anything across the waters only needed to improve what they were already doing. GM was damned when they did and damned when they didnt, just think about it. Here we needed to rethink, downsize, reclimatize, adjust...you names it. I believe its bullshit to call it complacency and ignorance, Domestics have had people on both sides pulling on their arms. I could write pages about the transition and how it was met by the mass buying American public.....thats your blind eye right there, you can not see the whole picture of how all this came to be. You simply want to blame it on " incompetence from previous years" or our American labor force. Acting like nothing decent ever came out of the American auto industry, nothing was ever spent on developement or tecnology. Bologna ! You too have a blind eye ! Theres no blind eyes here, just hope and team spirit.......I dont like your team.

As for your stupid and I mean STUPID capitolistic views........ if capitolism is so frigin great.....how come we have all our airlines going bankrupt ?.......how come bankrupcy lawyers are in the most profitable business in the USA ? and how can you have a "global" capitolistic system in place in this country when clearly the economics of all other countries we are forcing our laborers to compete with live in a far cheaper and far more primitive socioty...People like you that want to turn the clocks back in the US to the days prior to the great depression make me sick.........I though we were an advanced socioty ? What is it we are so advanced at.........shooting ourselfs in the foot and not missing ? Humping foreigners and their products and economies then bitching about our declining industries, local economies and ever expanding inner city insanity ?

You get back what you give for investment, you wanna invest your money and efforts into promoting foreign products and foriegn welfare, live with yourself and at the same time you better learn to live with those like me that believe in our own people and products and economies.

Im so faulking sick of hearing about free economies and globalization.....I COULD JUST SCREAM !!!!!!!

You have the exact same flawed logic I speak of.

Tell me, is there anything "efficient" about the Escalade? Is there anything "efficient" about the CTS-V's mileage?

The LS engines are awesome for efficiency, but ONLY in the Corvette.

They are NOT godly, because they do not get good economy in any other cars except the Vette.

I wasn't even talking about Lexus engines in this case, so why bring it up? I'm specifically talking about the LS engines. Are the LS engines light and powerful? Yes. Do they get good economy in the Vette? Yes. Are they godly? Of course not. That's as ridiculous as those who have the idea that "Toyota is perfect".

Toyota's knock sensors seem to work like that because Toyota doesn't like to offer performance at the expense of smooth, quiet operation or refinement.

I never said capitalism was great. I was simply stating there is no need to blame Toyota, but rather the blame should be on capitalist America itself.

I don't want to delve any deeper into any political arguments, so I'll stop here.

[Guest gmrebirth]

I don't consider Toyota a great engine manufacturer. They can build high tech advanced engines, they have the technology (like their F1 engines), but they choose the more cost-effective route instead. If gmrebirth is correct, and they put the same damn engine into their Camry and Lexus car, then that is a perfect example of this.

[post="65809"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Who doesn't choose the most cost-effective route though? You think GM doesn't, or Honda doesn't?

With Lexus though, Toyota is less concerned about being cost effective, as those are luxury cars, and Toyota spared little expense in making the IS350's engine, with both direct and port fuel injectors, which give it class leading power, yet very good fuel economy.

About the ES, it is based on the Camry chassis, and uses quite a few Camry-derived parts. Lexus has said they plan to move away with parts sharing with the Camry, so in a few years the ES and Camry are supposed to sever ties.

The 3.3L V6 is used in a whole bunch of Toyota vehicles, as well as the Lexus RX330 and ES330. Both Lexus models though are tuned a bit differently apparently, and both require premium, unlike the Toyota branded cars.

The 3.5L V6 will become the same, being shared in many Toyota cars, as well as the Lexus RX and ES. Minor tuning and premium gas will differentiate them from their Toyota-powered cousins.

[ftmjohn]

Did you not read the two posts by me calling this conversation back on topic from global economics to inaccuracy in hp/mpg figures?

You were banned once for reigniting arguments after they were settled, want to go for two?

[post="66437"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Uhh!!! I was never banned before! :blink:

You must be thinking of another user!!

John

[evok]

Getting back on topic, here is the answer to the original question.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-1...orsepower_x.htm

Auto group studies horsepower testing
By James R. Healey, USA TODAY
Enough automakers are cheating on horsepower claims that the standard-setting Society of Automotive Engineers is working on stricter test procedures.
"You see a huge variation" between advertised and actual horsepower in some cases, says David Landcaster, chairman of the committee working on eliminating loopholes from SAE's standard. "There are some (vehicles) way underpowered" compared with advertised numbers. (Related: Hyundai calls horsepower tests 'experimental')

SAE's standard, widely used but voluntary, dictates how an engine should be tested to determine the power it will generate in a vehicle.

"There are plenty of honest companies out there," emphasizes Landcaster, an engineering manager at General Motors. But "We've noticed some trends, and the trends have convinced us that it's necessary to go back and look at the standard."

The SAE moves weren't triggered by any specific case of abuse, Landcaster says. Neither he nor others in the industry would identify cheaters. But Landcaster indicated that some claims are more than 7% optimistic.

In Europe, engines are required by law to be within 2% of advertised horsepower. There's no such law in the USA, although 2% is considered the acceptable limit.

European engines are certified by a witness, something SAE is mulling. One plan would use Underwriters Laboratories witnesses.

A decision on a revised standard could come early next year. Talks with UL are preliminary, so witness certification could take longer.

Horsepower often is a key criterion for shoppers. More powerful vehicles more easily haul people and cargo, more easily pass and merge, and give owners bragging rights.

"We're in a horsepower race right now," says Gordon Wangers at Automotive Marketing Consultants Inc. AMCI tests vehicles to help automakers substantiate ad claims, but it seldom tests power because it's expensive and complicated. "A magic number at the $20,000 price is 200 hp, especially if the model's available with a V-6. And in luxury sedans, 300 hp has come and gone. It's 400 hp now that's the magic number," he says.

To be illegal false advertising, the phony numbers would have to influence a purchasing decision. "Not whether it tipped the balance, necessarily, but whether it was important," says Michael Ostheimer, an attorney at the Federal Trade Commission. "If, hypothetically, a driver couldn't tell the difference, I don't know if it would be material." Edited January 3, 2006 by evok

[regfootball]

Differences in gearing? Considering the 6 speed auto in the IS350 is geared for economy, I'd expect the manual G35 to be faster. Both the G35 and IS350 have similar weight distributions, and similar curb weights.

All other factors being equal, the only other variable that can explain the performance gap, like I said, is that either the IS350's 2GR is underrated, or the VQ in the G35 is overrated.

Honestly, there isn't a whole lot I can say that's good about GM. They are improving indeed, but the biggest problems, like the corporate structure, still remain. The UAW problem and health care issues still remain. Yes GM is improving, but the competition is not standing still.

For GM to once again become competitive, the corporate structure needs to RADICALLY change, and the company needs to become leaner. The only way I can see this occuring within a relatively short time frame is if GM files for bankruptcy and a "rebirth" occurs at GM, a new company emerging from the ashes, much more competitive than before. Big problems need big solutions.

Bankruptcy would be harsh no doubt for many many people, but in the LONG LONG run, it will greatly help GM.

Look at the market: the chinese automakers are beginning to emerge and have their sights on the US and international markets, the Koreans are improving tremendously every day, and the Japanese continue their dominance and further reach into every market segment out there.

At it's current rate of improvement, I honestly don't think GM will be able to compete very well. Look at Toyota, their execs are scared stiff about Korean and Chinese competition, and Toyota as a company is operating as if it's in crisis. In fact, Toyota seems more worried about the competition than GM, and Toyota is currently making huge profits and about to release many new models. To me, that shows that Chinese and Korean competition will be extremely fierce in the future, and GM needs to radically change right NOW, while they still have a decent chance.

[post="66822"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

let the asians knock themselves bloody up concentrating on each other. that will leave GM in the weeds to not worry about who is making the most bland cars. I would love to see the Korean automakers off our shores already.

[regfootball]

I don't consider Toyota a great engine manufacturer. They can build high tech advanced engines, they have the technology (like their F1 engines), but they choose the more cost-effective route instead. If gmrebirth is correct, and they put the same damn engine into their Camry and Lexus car, then that is a perfect example of this.

[post="65809"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

imagine if that new DI turbo solstice GXP motor was put in the Lotus cars instead of that crappy Toyo/Yama motor. I cannot believe Yamaha lowered itself to work with Toyota on a project.

[regfootball]

Do you think it is normal that 80% of the world's ressources and wealth is held by 20% of the world's population? I think that it is just normal that the rest of the third world countries are catching up and claming what is rightly due.

I think most americans dont remember what it is being poor and having nothing to loose. Those that were around in the early 30's will tell you how it was and how much this society has forgotten those times. The days of over spending, over comsuption of natural ressources for useless things are changing, and the rest of the world will be catching up forcing alot of people to rethink there life style.  This type of society of not going to stay for long, so be prepared.

Flame on!

John

[post="66409"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

that's an optimistic view. NOT

Americans are strong and creative enough and are willing to weed through all the crap to create the style of life they want or are used to. There will be bumps in the road, but we as a country are not willing to lead depressionist style lives ever again. And we shouldn't have to.

[The O.C.]

Uhh, what does gearing have to do with tranny smoothness? That's like asking what does butter have to do with toast.

It may be a matter of opinion. GM's 4 speeds, combined with their OHV engines, to me are "rough" shifting, but I'm not going to debate this, as it is simply an opinion.

I don't even need to bring up the Escalade to show my point. You conveniently left out the CTS-V, which despite having a 6 speed manual like the Vette, gets only 15/23 EPA mileage. It's curb weight is about 3500lb. Comparing it to the LS2 C6 6 speed manual, it gets 18/28 EPA mileage. Curb weight is about 3200lb.

A difference of 300lb in weight alone is not enough to warrant the considerable difference in fuel economy. Take a look at the Lexus LS430 and the GS430. They both use the same tranny and engine, and there is a 250lb weight difference between them. But they both get the same EPA mileage (18/25 EPA).

My point is that the LSx is not some magical engine series that always gets great economy. It only gets good economy in a Corvette, which is extremely light.

I've always said it's economy would greatly differ when put in other vehicles, and I was right.

[post="65397"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The ONLY reason a Corvette gets good gas mileage is the gearing in 6th.

My C6 has about 4,200 miles on it now.....and in 6th gear, at 85mph, you are still BELOW 2,000rpms. YES, on a straight freeway cruise (freeway speeds from full to empty with the cruise on)....I averaged a bit over 25mpg....which IS awesome in such a powerful car.

HOWEVER, driving around town at home sees fuel economy consistently in the 14-16mpg range....even with some freeway driving mixed in. (and I really don't get on it too much....I drive pretty conservatively 90% of the time.)

The BEST I've ever gotten driving in and around L.A. has been 20mpg.....with a significant amount of time on the freeways.

SO....the Corvette's a mixed-fuel-economy-bag. It should be praised for the ability to get such good economy on a straight freeway cruise.....but you can thank gearing for that more than you can the engine.

[Guest gmrebirth]

The ONLY reason a Corvette gets good gas mileage is the gearing in 6th.

My C6 has about 4,200 miles on it now.....and in 6th gear, at 85mph, you are still BELOW 2,000rpms.  YES, on a straight freeway cruise (freeway speeds from full to empty with the cruise on)....I averaged a bit over 25mpg....which IS awesome in such a powerful car.

HOWEVER, driving around town at home sees fuel economy consistently in the 14-16mpg range....even with some freeway driving mixed in.  (and I really don't get on it too much....I drive pretty conservatively 90% of the time.)

The BEST I've ever gotten driving in and around L.A. has been 20mpg.....with a significant amount of time on the freeways.

SO....the Corvette's a mixed-fuel-economy-bag.  It should be praised for the ability to get such good economy on a straight freeway cruise.....but you can thank gearing for that more than you can the engine.

[post="67031"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, that too is a factor. The high gearing of the Vette is a main contributor to the fuel economy, like in many GM vehicles, but the lightweight also helps.

If the Corvette is a mixed bag, than it proves my point even further about there being nothing "godly" about the LS engines.

[Guest gmrebirth]

imagine if that new DI turbo solstice GXP motor was put in the Lotus cars instead of that crappy Toyo/Yama motor.  I cannot believe Yamaha lowered itself to work with Toyota on a project.

Yamaha "lowered itself"? You don't know a whole lot about Yamaha do you? Yamaha and Toyota have had a close relationship for MANY years, close to 3 decades in fact. Yamaha piano wood for example is used in Lexus cars.

Not to mention Lotus and Toyota have had an interesting relationship way back since the early 80's when Lotus helped Toyota with the Supra's suspension.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Yes, that too is a factor. The high gearing of the Vette is a main contributor to the fuel economy, like in many GM vehicles, but the lightweight also helps.

If the Corvette is a mixed bag, than it proves my point even further about there being nothing "godly" about the LS engines.

[post="67053"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Even 16-20, is good for a 400hp engine. You mind looking up what comparable 400hp cars fuel economy is? 395hp Ferrari 360 Modena is what, 8-12 or around there? But how can that be, isnt the Modena lighter than a Vette? And wouldn't 6th gear be similar? OMG the Prius takes 12 seconds to 60? What is wrong with Toyota? And they are godly? (Sarcasm)
What other engines are you comparing the LSx engines to? Prius engines? Civic engines? Wheres Toyotas 400hp engine? Oh they dont have one. Honda? Nope. Mercedes and BMWs 400hp engines dont come close the the Corvettes fuel economy.

[sciguy_0504]

Wheres Toyotas 400hp engine? Oh they dont have one.

[post="67064"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yet.

[The O.C.]

Even 16-20, is good for a 400hp engine. You mind looking up what comparable 400hp cars fuel economy is? 395hp Ferrari 360 Modena is what, 8-12 or around there? But how can that be, isnt the Modena lighter than a Vette? And wouldn't 6th gear be similar? OMG the Prius takes 12 seconds to 60? What is wrong with Toyota? And they are godly? (Sarcasm)
What other engines are you comparing the LSx engines to? Prius engines? Civic engines? Wheres Toyotas 400hp engine? Oh they dont have one. Honda? Nope. Mercedes and BMWs 400hp engines dont come close the the Corvettes fuel economy.

[post="67064"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I just simply disagree.

First of all, I get around 14-16 normally.....my BEST was 20mpg with alot of freeway driving in town....

It's gearing...and no, Ferraris are geared WAY shorter...in all gears...to take advantage of their radically-different horsepower and torque bands.

Don't get me wrong....I LOVE the LS2 in my car.....but it's no fuel-economy-miracle.....or so I've learned with personal use of the car....at least it's no miracle compared to the other V8 imports in the household....

[CaddyXLR-V]

I just simply disagree. 

First of all, I get around 14-16 normally.....my BEST was 20mpg with alot of freeway driving in town....

It's gearing...and no, Ferraris are geared WAY shorter...in all gears...to take advantage of their radically-different horsepower and torque bands.

Don't get me wrong....I LOVE the LS2 in my car.....but it's no fuel-economy-miracle.....or so I've learned with personal use of the car....at least it's no miracle compared to the other V8 imports in the household....

[post="67096"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Is that rush hour freeway driving, or open road freeway driving? And just because the Ferrari needs lower gearing to take advantage of the powerband isnt a mark against the LS2. If the Corvette can accellerate faster, with higher gearing, and still get better mileage, why complain? If the Corvette's accelleration was lacking due to the gearing, it would be a different story.

[Cory Wolfe]

Differences in gearing? Considering the 6 speed auto in the IS350 is geared for economy, I'd expect the manual G35 to be faster. Both the G35 and IS350 have similar weight distributions, and similar curb weights.

All other factors being equal, the only other variable that can explain the performance gap, like I said, is that either the IS350's 2GR is underrated, or the VQ in the G35 is overrated.

Let's just compare... G35 vs IS350. Differences displayed in favoring color.

Weight.................. 3520 vs 3600 (diff. of 80)
Horsepower........... 298 vs 306 (diff. of 8)
Torque................ .. 260 vs 277 (diff. of 17)
Redline................. 7000 vs 6600 (diff. of 400)
Axle Ratio........... 3.54:1 vs 4.08:1 (diff. of .54:1)

Now... when you add in the scores each got, it's easy to see some possible reasons why the IS350 is quicker. The VQ in the G35 is more of a high speed engine than the 2GR in the IS is. It has only slightly less horsepower yet considerably less torque. It has a higher redline and the axle ratio, if I remember it correctly, is more aggressive.

That and you still won't consider that automatic transmissions can shift faster than a person can. Not always the case, but possible. Again... look at the GTO.

The VQ being overrated, again, I highly doubt.

Honestly, there isn't a whole lot I can say that's good about GM. They are improving indeed, but the biggest problems, like the corporate structure, still remain. The UAW problem and health care issues still remain. Yes GM is improving, but the competition is not standing still.

For GM to once again become competitive, the corporate structure needs to RADICALLY change, and the company needs to become leaner. The only way I can see this occuring within a relatively short time frame is if GM files for bankruptcy and a "rebirth" occurs at GM, a new company emerging from the ashes, much more competitive than before. Big problems need big solutions.

Bankruptcy would be harsh no doubt for many many people, but in the LONG LONG run, it will greatly help GM.

Look at the market: the chinese automakers are beginning to emerge and have their sights on the US and international markets, the Koreans are improving tremendously every day, and the Japanese continue their dominance and further reach into every market segment out there.

At it's current rate of improvement, I honestly don't think GM will be able to compete very well. Look at Toyota, their execs are scared stiff about Korean and Chinese competition, and Toyota as a company is operating as if it's in crisis. In fact, Toyota seems more worried about the competition than GM, and Toyota is currently making huge profits and about to release many new models. To me, that shows that Chinese and Korean competition will be extremely fierce in the future, and GM needs to radically change right NOW, while they still have a decent chance.

That wasn't my point. I realize GM has few positive qualities, but it seems that all you do is constantly bash while praising Toyota. You say you are objective, but it doesn't seem that way. You act like Toyota can do no wrong. That's what I get from reading your posts. I've never heard you say anything bad about Toyota or anything good about GM. I'm not asking you to change your opinion, but just to lighten up on the GM bashing and be more open minded. This is a GM enthusiast forum, you know...

I'm just being honest and telling it as I see it.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Even 16-20, is good for a 400hp engine. You mind looking up what comparable 400hp cars fuel economy is? 395hp Ferrari 360 Modena is what, 8-12 or around there? But how can that be, isnt the Modena lighter than a Vette? And wouldn't 6th gear be similar? OMG the Prius takes 12 seconds to 60? What is wrong with Toyota? And they are godly? (Sarcasm)
What other engines are you comparing the LSx engines to? Prius engines? Civic engines? Wheres Toyotas 400hp engine? Oh they dont have one. Honda? Nope. Mercedes and BMWs 400hp engines dont come close the the Corvettes fuel economy.

Considering the fact that most automakers don't have consumer-level 400HP engines, this is a non-issue.

And yes, nobody said it was bad economy. It IS good economy, but it's not special or amazing.

Btw, you want to back up that statement of similar gearing between the Vette and Ferrari? Any figures you can show me?

What other engines am I comparing it to? Well frankly the Lexus 4.3L V8. I know it's less power and displacement than the LS2, but in most applications the 4.3L V8 gets 18/25 fuel economy, and thats mostly in large luxury sedans like the GS and LS. That's also with automatic trannies.

And as pointed out, Toyota doesn't have a production 400HP engine ... yet.

The CTS-V, gets 15/23 with it's LS2, and it has a manual. Seeing as the LS2 is so powerful, and that it has great grunt down low, logically it should be running at a low RPM more often than the Lexus V8, resulting in great fuel economy. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I can also go out on a limb and compare the IS350 with the CTS-V. Yes, the IS350 is lighter and it has a V6, but if you want to compare the performance of both cars, the IS350's performance is not that far really from the CTS-V. The IS350 also manages great economy of 21/28.

Man you really show your ignorance when you say that BMW's and MB's engine "do not even come close" to the Vette's economy.

Lets be fair and compare apples to apples shall we?

It's funny that fanatics like you NEVER point out the CTS-V as a "shining example" of the LS's vaunted "great fuel economy", yet always show the Corvette as the example.

In this case, I'll compare the CTS-V to the heavier BMW 760Li.

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/7/760liSedan/techdata.htm

The BMW features a 6.0L V12 which makes
438HP @ 6000 RPM
444 lb-ft @ 3950 RPM

This is more power than the LS2, and guess what, it gets fuel economy of 15/22. Wow, SLIGHTLY less than the CTS-V, despite having more power and being a heavier vehicle. The 760Li in fact weighs close to 5000lbs, about 1000lbs heavier than a CTS-V, yet STILL manages to get very similar mileage. Yeah, BMW doesn't even come close :rolleyes: .

Now onto Benz:

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2005/mercedesb...4071/specs.html

The SL600 with a turbocharged 6.0L V12 makes

493HP @ 5000RPM
590 lb-ft @ 1800 RPM

It has a curb weight of about 4400lbs, over 1000lbs more than a Vette, and about 600lbs more than a CTS-V. It also produces much more power than either a C6 Vette or a CTS-V.

It gets mileage of 13/19, which isn't that far from the CTS-V, considering all the variables going against this Benz. If this weighed 600lbs less, I can bet it's mileage would be very close to the CTS-V.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Let's just compare... G35 vs IS350. Differences displayed in favoring color.

Weight.................. 3520 vs 3600 (diff. of 80)
Horsepower...........  298 vs 306 (diff. of 8)
Torque................ .. 260 vs 277 (diff. of 17)
Redline................. 7000 vs 6600 (diff. of 400)
Axle Ratio........... 3.54:1 vs 4.08:1 (diff. of .54:1)

Now... when you add in the scores each got, it's easy to see some possible reasons why the IS350 is quicker. The VQ in the G35 is more of a high speed engine than the 2GR in the IS is. It has only slightly less horsepower yet considerably less torque. It has a higher redline and the axle ratio, if I remember it correctly, is more aggressive.

That and you still won't consider that automatic transmissions can shift faster than a person can. Not always the case, but possible. Again... look at the GTO.

The VQ being overrated, again, I highly doubt.

That wasn't my point. I realize GM has few positive qualities, but it seems that all you do is constantly bash while praising Toyota. You say you are objective, but it doesn't seem that way. You act like Toyota can do no wrong. That's what I get from reading your posts. I've never heard you say anything bad about Toyota or anything good about GM. I'm not asking you to change your opinion, but just to lighten up on the GM bashing and be more open minded. This is a GM enthusiast forum, you know...

I'm just being honest and telling it as I see it.

Wait, did you say the G35's gearing is more aggressive? Did I hear you right? I guess that fits with what I said about the IS350 being geared toward economy, not performance. Yes I can understand autos shifting quicker than manuals, but usually auto trannies also weigh more than manuals.

We can simply agree to disagree. Until I see SAE net power numbers for the "300HP" version of the VQ, I won't be convinced that the VQ is NOT overrated.

The Acura RL's supposed "300HP" engine dropped to 290HP under SAE net ratings, and I'm very confident the VQ will do the same.

If the G35 in reality has 280 - 290 SAE net HP compared to the IS350's 306 net HP, then it's a lot more believable as to the performance gap that exists between the manual G35 and auto IS350.

You simply assume I act like that. Yes this is a GM enthusiast board, but I cannot stand stupidity and lies, irregardless of what forum I'm in, and seeing as there is a huge amount of misinformation and exaggeration about GM, not to mention too much huge negativity towards Toyota (most of it unfounded and not backed up by any sort of reasonable proof or logic) I am seen as "anti-GM" just because I keep correcting posts about GM and Toyota, and making "Toyota look good".

I guess you might say I like to play devil's advocate.

If the reality, FOR EXAMPLE, is that Toyota is doing great and GM is doing bad in many areas, and I accept the reality, I guess you can call be "anti-GM" even though I am no such thing.

NOBODY is perfect, but if you look at the reality, Toyota is doing great, with a lot less problems than GM. Even so, Toyota execs work under the idea the company is in crisis. I'm sorry, but how can you NOT respect that? Then I look at GM management, and how little progress they are making in comparison, and I simply shake my head at it. The GMT-900s are seem great, but I will reserve full judgement until I see them in person.

I predicted (not on any forums though) 2005 would be a bad year for domestics, especially GM, and I was right. Even years ago, looking at the products domestic makers were offering, I made a prediction that the Japanese makers would become extremely competitive, and huge problems would arise for the domestics, whether due to their own ignorance, or competitive pressures. Again, I was right.

I am a huge supporter of the truth and of reality, no matter how negative or harsh it may seem. Which is why I still stand by my ideas of radical change for GM. Edited January 3, 2006 by gmrebirth

[Cory Wolfe]

Wait, did you say the G35's gearing is more aggressive? Did I hear you right? I guess that fits with what I said about the IS350 being geared toward economy, not performance. Yes I can understand autos shifting quicker than manuals, but usually auto trannies also weigh more than manuals.

We can simply agree to disagree. Until I see SAE net power numbers for the "300HP" version of the VQ, I won't be convinced that the VQ is NOT overrated.

The Acura RL's supposed "300HP" engine dropped to 290HP under SAE net ratings, and I'm very confident the VQ will do the same.

If the G35 in reality has 280 - 290 SAE net HP compared to the IS350's 306 net HP, then it's a lot more believable as to the performance gap that exists between the manual G35 and auto IS350.

Well... I forget which equals more aggressive, a higher or lower ratio. Even then, either the IS350 has a more aggressive axle ratio while the G35 has more aggressive gearing... or it's the other way around.

You simply assume I act like that. Yes this is a GM enthusiast board, but I cannot stand stupidity and lies, irregardless of what forum I'm in, and seeing as there is a huge amount of misinformation and exaggeration about GM, not to mention too much huge negativity towards Toyota (most of it unfounded and not backed up by any sort of reasonable proof or logic) I am seen as "anti-GM" just because I keep correcting posts about GM and Toyota, and making "Toyota look good".

I guess you might say I like to play devil's advocate.

If the reality, FOR EXAMPLE,  is that Toyota is doing great and GM is doing bad in many areas, and I accept the reality, I guess you can call be "anti-GM" even though I am no such thing.

It just seems that, from my perspective, you are like I said. Doing what you say, though, probably makes it seem like that. It makes sense and respect that. You just have to understand that I'm somwhat bitter from the amount of trolls we've had lately...

NOBODY is perfect, but if you look at the reality, Toyota is doing great, with a lot less problems than GM. Even so, Toyota execs work under the idea the company is in crisis. I'm sorry, but how can you NOT respect that? Then I look at GM management, and how little progress they are making in comparison, and I simply shake my head at it. The GMT-900s are seem great, but I will reserve full judgement until I see them in person.

I predicted (not on any forums though) 2005 would be a bad year for domestics, especially GM, and I was right. Even years ago, looking at the products domestic makers were offering, I made a prediction that the Japanese makers would become extremely competitive, and huge problems would arise for the domestics, whether due to their own ignorance, or competitive pressures. Again, I was right.

I am a huge supporter of the truth and of reality, no matter how negative or harsh it may seem. Which is why I still stand by my ideas of radical change for GM.

[post="67149"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Again, I can respect that.

[siegen]

Let's just compare... G35 vs IS350. Differences displayed in favoring color.

Weight.................. 3520 vs 3600 (diff. of 80)
Horsepower...........  298 vs 306 (diff. of 8)
Torque................ .. 260 vs 277 (diff. of 17)
Redline................. 7000 vs 6600 (diff. of 400)
Axle Ratio........... 3.54:1 vs 4.08:1 (diff. of .54:1)

Now... when you add in the scores each got, it's easy to see some possible reasons why the IS350 is quicker. The VQ in the G35 is more of a high speed engine than the 2GR in the IS is. It has only slightly less horsepower yet considerably less torque. It has a higher redline and the axle ratio, if I remember it correctly, is more aggressive.

That and you still won't consider that automatic transmissions can shift faster than a person can. Not always the case, but possible. Again... look at the GTO.

The axle ratio doesn't really say anything. You need to take each gear ratio and multiply by the final drive, to get the actual TQ multiplication in each gear.

Then if you want to take it to the next step, find an accurate dynochart of each engine, and make a thrust curve chart (showing how much actual TQ is being put to the ground in each gear up to a certain MPH). Then you will be able to see which one is faster based off gearing. Of course then things like traction, drivetrain loss, aerodynamics, and other factors come into play.

Just from looking at that information, it could be either cars game, they look very similar.

[razoredge]

Good grief ! None of any of this "qouteing" of "numbers" matter in the first place because of the title of this topic. Everyone is lying, EPA has been challenged for highly innacurate fuel statistics and hp/tq rateing are being challenged. Depending on ones standpoint the gas mileage in their vehical is either so high the listener stnads flaborgasted as the lier stands there giving Rabbit diesel numbers for thier pickup truck, one can only wonder to themselves "does this idiot think Im standing here swallowing this BS whole". Same as when anti GM people pop up into any topic they can to prove the absolute worthlessness of all and any GM model ever built. I sit here and wonder "does this idiot think Im swallowing this BS whole ? " My buddys LS1 C5 has a lifetime average of 23 MPG Someday I will learn something about engines and economy and power bands and who spends how much building what engines but until then I think Ill just punt like the rest of ya's. Good grief !

[regfootball]

Yamaha "lowered itself"? You don't know a whole lot about Yamaha do you? Yamaha and Toyota have had a close relationship for MANY years, close to 3 decades in fact. Yamaha piano wood for example is used in Lexus cars.

Not to mention Lotus and Toyota have had an interesting relationship way back since the early 80's when Lotus helped Toyota with the Supra's suspension.

[post="67055"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yeah that piano wood really helps the motorget some torque instead of haing to blow 7500 rpm to get any power.

[siegen]

Wow, we did get off track there. :blink: :Toyota: Damn lying bastards! 2hp is 2hp! I'll go test drive one and ask the saleman how much HP it makes. To which he will definately reply "270HP". Then I'll say: "Hmm, it feels more like 268 HP, are you sure?". lol

[Endo]

hmm... kinda reminds me of the older Mustang GT's. They had 4.94 liter engines but big shiny "5.0" badges on the side.

[ponchoman49]

Hey keep politics out of this thats a whole other story, What polition DOESN'T lie????

But yeah i hate lieing auto makers. GM has never over rated engines they have underrated there engines. EX. its changed now but the SSR has always 390 HP when then went to the LS2 but the GTO and Vette had 400 hundered so they didnt just round it off.

the only overated car that i know of GM having is the Vibe. I Dynoed my mom's at 104 HP when they claim 120 HP thats 16 HP!!!

You might think o its the type of dyno you used. The dyno that i used at the shop has software that deletes the drivetrain. it really read 99 HP at the wheels and 104 after the software think what is at the flywheel.

:Toyota:

[post="63082"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And we all know who really makes the Vibe don't we.....It doesn't surprise me that Toyota lies about there ratings. The interesting thing is that they often don't get the gas mileage that there stickers claim either. Maybe they bought off the EPA too!

[sciguy_0504]

Kool Aid....Kool Aid....lay off the Kool Aid.

[toyoguy]

Yet.

[post="67087"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

a simple intake/exhaust will easily net 400hp on Toyota's new 4.6L V8
fuel economy is expected near the mid 20's in a 4000lb vehicle