GM down to #2 in sales in '06?

[BuddyP]

CNN this morning says Toyota up's sales goals to 9.06 million vehicles for '06. GM is set at 9.08 million. Will they stay ahead?

[thegriffon]

GM is set at 9.08 million this year. First quarter production increase will match Toyota worldwide, so no, Toyota won't be catching GM any time soon. Toyota's figures also include 110K of medium/large Hino truck sales globally, while GM's only includes medium trucks in NA. With their Isuzu affiliate GM's sales would be nearly 10 million next year.

[Newbiewar]

the more they try to grow, the more their cars fail to work properly...

[Guest Josh]

the more they try to grow, the more their cars fail to work properly...

[post="61909"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Which will continue to happen. I said nearly two years ago that with Toyotas growth comes growing pains. It's just a fact. The sheer amount of volume out there works against you.

[Newbiewar]

Which will continue to happen. I said nearly two years ago that with Toyotas growth comes growing pains. It's just a fact. The sheer amount of volume out there works against you.

[post="61912"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

they wont sustain growth this year or they will have some more major recalls...

[Clownzilla]

they wont sustain growth this year or they will have some more major recalls...

[post="61913"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think the world should get ready for some MAJOR Toyota recalls. I hope the press is ready.............

[Dave]

WHO CARES?

[jbartley]

yes, i'm more concerned about camaro and lambda, enough of this number 1, we'll discuss when it happens? can we get a poll???

[Newbiewar]

yes, i'm more concerned about camaro and lambda, enough of this number 1, we'll discuss when it happens?

can we get a poll???

[post="61969"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

USA must hold on to one of its last leading segments...

we cant abandon GM and say "what happens, happens..."

[johnnyb]

USA must hold on to one of its last leading segments...

we cant abandon GM and say "what happens, happens..."

[post="61989"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It happened because of GM's past negligence, and they're paying for it. And as I recall, the U.S. seems to suck at every segment. Except for science and technological advancements, but considering that few (educated) Americans actually appreciate science (while others ignore it), it may not last.

And really, #1 isn't important to me. As long as they're profitable (Porsche, BMW) and make cars that people lust for, then that's all I need. Not say that I want them to become some niche automaker... Edited December 21, 2005 by johnnyb

[andy82471]

USA must hold on to one of its last leading segments...

we cant abandon GM and say "what happens, happens..."

[post="61989"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I just hope GM doesn't resort to remain No.1 at any cost by overproducing cars and then having to have EMPLOYEE DISCOUNT PLAN and/or RED TAG SALE to move bloated inventories. That would be a disaster.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM is set at 9.08 million this year. First quarter production increase will match Toyota worldwide, so no, Toyota won't be catching GM any time soon. Toyota's figures also include 110K of medium/large Hino truck sales globally, while GM's only includes medium trucks in NA. With their Isuzu affiliate GM's sales would be nearly 10 million next year.

[post="61873"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So basiclly, as always, Toyota is using every bit of this to their PR advantage while glossing the numbers, or in other words playing on a hidden 'catch 22'

And why is GM not counting their sales this way????

Why is GM not defending itself in the press?????

I'm sure we'll hear a steadily increasing amount of stories proclaiming Toyota to be #1. Then just as everyone freaks out and believes it, Toyota will quietly concede the truth (Just like they did a couple of years ago with the Ford fiasco)

Of course, no one will hear it. The intolerable 'GM death march' howling will be too loud.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

WHO CARES?

[post="61935"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

99% of Americans and Toyota, no doubt for bragging rights (Just as GM touts the title in all of it's press releases today)

Size does matter to Americans, especially since most of them still think GM is untouchable. Many will show concern, many will cheer and many will comment on it.

It will be a MONUMENTAL event to say that Americans are no longer the leading automotive producers and we'll hear about it too in a big way.

USA must hold on to one of its last leading segments...

we cant abandon GM and say "what happens, happens..."

That has pretty much already happened.

And really, #1 isn't important to me. As long as they're profitable (Porsche, BMW) and make cars that people lust for, then that's all I need. Not say that I want them to become some niche automaker...

I agree... Number 1 is nice, but once you go up there's no where to go but down.

The thing I worry about is downsizing... Specifically the downsizing of more divisions and volume. GM doesn't have to be number 1, but i DO wish they would stabilize and stop losing share.

[Dave]

99% of Americans and Toyota, no doubt for bragging rights (Just as GM touts the title in all of it's press releases today)

Size does matter to Americans, especially since most of them still think GM is untouchable. Many will show concern, many will cheer and many will comment on it.

It will be a MONUMENTAL event to say that Americans are no longer the leading automotive producers and we'll hear about it too in a big way.
That has pretty much already happened.
I agree... Number 1 is nice, but once you go up there's no where to go but down.

The thing I worry about is downsizing... Specifically the downsizing of more divisions and volume. GM doesn't have to be number 1, but i DO wish they would stabilize and stop losing share.

[post="62063"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The sad thing it's American not foreigners who are helping to make toyota number one!

[G. David Felt]

<_< Actually Short term, let it slip to Toyota, no big deal, if the right moves are done internally at GM, strong product with High Quality comes out, they can pull the IBM move done in the 90's and regain the world largest auto company crown and be profitable with cash reserves. :P

[Newbiewar]

I just hope GM doesn't resort to remain No.1 at any cost by overproducing cars and then having to have EMPLOYEE DISCOUNT PLAN and/or RED TAG SALE to move bloated inventories. That would be a disaster.

[post="62037"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the sad thing is... its cheaper for GM to give the cars away then to produce less, due to the UAW...

[thegriffon]

So basiclly, as always, Toyota is using every bit of this to their PR advantage while glossing the numbers, or in other words playing on a hidden 'catch 22'

And why is GM not counting their sales this way????

Why is GM not defending itself in the press?????

I'm sure we'll hear a steadily increasing amount of stories proclaiming Toyota to be #1. Then just as everyone freaks out and believes it, Toyota will quietly concede the truth (Just like they did a couple of years ago with the Ford fiasco)

Of course, no one will hear it. The intolerable 'GM death march' howling will be too loud.

[post="62061"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's not even Toyota PR. It's media and analysts who don't realise or believe than GM can increase sales enough outside NA to stay ahead, but will believe Toyota's forecasts without question. Basically they assume that GM will not be around the whole year. If you watched the X-files late in the series you may know the sentiment: the best way to predict the future is to make it happen.

[SimonDavid]

I tnink it would have happened a while back except GM bought an extra 1% of Daewoo, moving to 51% therefore can consolidate GMDAT's production figures. So that's a million units right there.

[andy82471]

I tnink it would have happened a while back except GM bought an extra 1% of Daewoo, moving to 51% therefore can consolidate GMDAT's production figures.

So that's a million units right there.

[post="62306"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

IF GM is the majority owner of DAEWOO then DAEWOO sales figures would be counted as GM sales. The rule is that the parent company has to own a 50% stake of another company in order to be eligible for the two companies sales tallies to be counted as one. I believe GM only owns like 30% of ISUZU and SUZUKI and therefore their sales figure are not counted as GM sales figure.

[SimonDavid]

IF GM is the majority owner of DAEWOO then DAEWOO sales figures would be counted as GM sales. The rule is that the parent company has to own a 50% stake of another company in order to be eligible for the two companies sales tallies to be counted as one. I believe GM only owns like 30% of ISUZU and SUZUKI and therefore their sales figure are not counted as GM sales figure.

[post="62308"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think the Daewoo stake was 49.5% a year ago now it's 50.5% so now they can consolidate

Maybe the structure was like that because GM didn't want to consolidate Daewoo's financial results when it was still losing money - now it's turned the corner they can afford to.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's not even Toyota PR. It's media and analysts who don't realise or believe than GM can increase sales enough outside NA to stay ahead, but will believe Toyota's forecasts without question. Basically they assume that GM will not be around the whole year.

And that statement confirms the very bias that everyone criticizes me for pointing out.

Toyota is golden, GM is dead. End of story (literally in the media)

If you watched the X-files late in the series you may know the sentiment: the best way to predict the future is to make it happen.

Is that a rally for GM or a hint at the analyst and media induced bankruptcy that I've been predicting for 2 years? Or a media induced sales increase for Toyota?

[erod45]

It happened because of GM's past negligence, and they're paying for it. And as I recall, the U.S. seems to suck at every segment. Except for science and technological advancements, but considering that few (educated) Americans actually appreciate science (while others ignore it), it may not last.

The Germans actually lead in the science development. Much of the world's technological achievements were accomplished in Germany, as well as medical advancements.

The number 1 thing is for GM to make a profit, in which they have failed miserably. Right now, they have to concentrate on making that profit so that they can be more competitive in the auto world.

[hyperv6]

Who cares who #1 is?? It is time to just worry about getting GM's house in order and if you do that the rest will take care of it's self. GM has made mistakes but not all of their problems were brough on by them alone. Maybe if GM is #2 the press and Wall Street will be on to another topic. They both have hit them justly and very unjustly in various areas. One way or the other GM will live on survive but one has to wonder when they will quit kicking them while they are down. Someone has something to gain in piling on GM , Walmart and Microsoft, one has to wonder what money people are the ones behind it. Lets get GM back to being profitable in North America and keep them a viable player in the world market. Sometimed you have to take a step back to leap foward. If Toyota is #1 their day will come too when they will fail. No one is #1 for ever. Edited December 24, 2005 by hyperv6

[caddyfan2004]

Keep in mind that the only thing even remotely in jeopardy is global sales leadership. In the USA, GM brands (in total) still outsell Toyota brands (in total) by nearly a 2 to 1 margin. In fact, through November, Chevrolet is the top selling brand in the US, and sold more than 50% more than the Toyota brand. Profits are another story....

[regfootball]

I think the world should get ready for some MAJOR Toyota recalls.  I hope the press is ready.............

[post="61922"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

problem is for every articel about a toyota recall there are still ten prius articles that put toyo on a pedestal.

[Guest gmrebirth]

GM is set at 9.08 million this year. First quarter production increase will match Toyota worldwide, so no, Toyota won't be catching GM any time soon. Toyota's figures also include 110K of medium/large Hino truck sales globally, while GM's only includes medium trucks in NA. With their Isuzu affiliate GM's sales would be nearly 10 million next year.

[post="61873"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What's your point? Isuzu is not majority-owned by GM, but Hino has been majority owned by Toyota for over 30 years. Hino is a division of Toyota, but Isuzu is not a division of GM. That is the difference.

And I guess I should point out the obvious fact that Toyota has 4 brands vs GM's 8.

[thegriffon]

So what you're saying is if Toyota starts making airplanes then they should be included as well, or perhaps we should be including Hyundai Motor Group's locomotives in their total vehicles. While we're at it we'll lump in FHI's garbage buses, trucks, rail vehicles and aircraft with Subaru. Wait now we can also juice Fiat's figures by lumping in Iveco and CaseNewHolland. It's too bad that like GM and DCX they've sold their rail transport business. Of course this is all moot, as there is no way either Toyota or GM can catch Honda's 2005 sales of 15.85 million units (naturally we must include motocycles as well as heavy trucks, especially since the former are more commonly classed as automobiles). While we're changing the rankings we have to adjust DCX and Suzuki, and guess what, Suzuki is an even bigger vehicle producer than DCX, despite the latter's multitude of heavy vehicle brands. Motorcycles should help PSA boost it's global sales too. Edited December 31, 2005 by thegriffon

[thegriffon]

What's your point? Isuzu is not majority-owned by GM, but Hino has been majority owned by Toyota for over 30 years. Hino is a division of Toyota, but Isuzu is not a division of GM. That is the difference.

And I guess I should point out the obvious fact that Toyota has 4 brands vs GM's 8.

[post="65647"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your total number of brands is incorrect. Toyota's Total includes:

Toyota
Daihatsu
Hino
Scion
Lexus
Perodua and
Xiali

Not including the Japanese sales channels of:

Toyopet (the first Toyota brand in the US)
Corolla and
Netz, which starting with the new bB gets its own badging (after absorbing the Vista channel).

That's 10 channels to GM's 11:

Opel
Vauxhall
Holden
Daewoo
Chevrolet
GMC
Buick
Pontiac
Cadillac
Saturn
Saab

Of course many of these different brands are the same vehicles with different badges for different markets (Daewoo in Korea, Holden in Australasia, Vauxhall in Britain and Ireland). On the other hand Scion, Perodua and Xiali are now much less rebadged Toyotas or Daihatsus, but unique products, as are the vehicles sold through each of the Japanese channels.

[thegriffon]

Hino has not "been majority owned by Toyota for over 30 years" as you say. Although long-associated, only recently did Toyota increase their stake in each company enough to consolidate sales.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Hino has not "been majority owned by Toyota for over 30 years" as you say. Although long-associated, only recently did Toyota increase their stake in each company enough to consolidate sales.

http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9073109

"During the 1960s and '70s the company expanded at a rapid rate and began exporting large numbers of automobiles to foreign markets. Toyota also acquired such companies as Hino Motors, Ltd. (1966), which manufactures buses and large trucks, Nippondenso Company, Ltd., which makes electrical auto components, and Daihitsu Motor Company, Ltd. (1967)."

The dates in brackets is the year in which Toyota acquired each respective company. So I'll admit, I misworded what I said; Toyota has not majority owned Hino for 30 years, but Hino "merged" or was acquired by Toyota over 30 years ago.

The situation with Isuzu is different, as GM owns about an 11% share right now of the company, and there are various reports Isuzu wants to buy back more shares from GM. GM never actually "acquired" Isuzu as a company, or merged with it. Edited January 3, 2006 by gmrebirth

[thegriffon]

GM "acquired" Isuzu in the same way Toyota "acquired" Hino. EB is being lax in their use of the word. Isuzu is still publicly talking up their future co-operation with GM, especially in light commercial vehicles. It doesn't hurt that GM is the majority owner of Isuzu's light diesel engine operations, from Isuzu Motors Polska and Isuzu Motors Germany to DMAX, to GMI Diesel Engineering in Japan. Just as Hino engineered the Tacoma, Isuzu was heavily involved in the Colorado. Just as Toyota builds Hino trucks in Long Beach, GM builds Isuzus in Janesville (and Nigeria and Kenya). Isuzu however is 6x as big as Hino globally.

[thegriffon]

April 25, 2001

Subscription of New Shares ofHino Motors, Ltd. for Capital Increase

Toyota Motor Corporation ("TMC") decided to subscribe for new shares of Hino Motors, Ltd. ("Hino"), a business partner of TMC, to be issued for capital increase by allocation of new shares to a third party, subject to the completion of the administrative procedures in and outside of Japan, such as filing with and approval by the antitrust authorities.

In order to enhance the truck business of the Toyota group, TMC has considered that it is necessary for TMC and Hino to establish an even closer relationship and in the case of Hino, whose strengthening of its corporate structure is almost achieved after promoting structural reform, to strengthen and expand its business aggressively. Therefore, TMC decided to accept Hino¡s request for capital increase and to acquire its new shares.

As a result of this acquisition of new shares, TMC's stake in Hino will increase from 36.6% (number of shares held: 165,597,000) to 50.1% (number of shares held: 287,897,000) and in connection therewith, Hino will become a subsidiary of TMC.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Your total number of brands is incorrect. Toyota's Total includes:

Toyota
Daihatsu
Hino
Scion
Lexus
Perodua and
Xiali

Not including the Japanese sales channels of:

Toyopet (the first Toyota brand in the US)
Corolla and
Netz, which starting with the new bB gets its own badging (after absorbing the Vista channel).

That's 10 channels to GM's 11:

Opel
Vauxhall
Holden
Daewoo
Chevrolet
GMC
Buick
Pontiac
Cadillac
Saturn
Saab

Of course many of these different brands are the same vehicles with different badges for different markets (Daewoo in Korea, Holden in Australasia, Vauxhall in Britain and Ireland). On the other hand Scion, Perodua and Xiali are now much less rebadged Toyotas or Daihatsus, but unique products, as are the vehicles sold through each of the Japanese channels.

Now you're just going overboard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perodua

"Because Perodua does not actually produce any in house design and engineering for the main components (i.e engine, transmission), some people questions their status as car maker. To some, Perodua are just mere assemblers. Daihatsu owns a majority stake in Perodua."

Shall I start naming off all the Indian and Chinese assemblers that GM is affiliated with?

Perouda is affiliated with Toyota through Daihatsu, but Perouda is NOT a Toyota brand, NOR is it part of the Toyota group. BIG difference.

Same thing with Xiali; it is a joint-venture with Toyota in China, but Xiali is NOT a Toyota brand.

Like I said, I don't see you listing any GM dealer channels or GM affiliates/joint ventures, so cut the crap.

In Japan, many Toyota vehicles get their own unique badging. Does that mean that EACH car is it's own brand? Of course not. Corolla, Netz, and Toyopet are sales channels, not brands.

Are you going to tell me because the Toyota Rav 4, Avensis, Alphard, MR-2, among other models are offered through Netz dealers, these cars are sold under a different brand? Give me a break.

Toyota's dealer channels exist to cater to the unique demands of the Japanese market. All the Netz dealer-sold cars are still sold as Toyotas, not as Netz brand vehicles.

Besides, Toyota wants to possibly further consolidate it's dealer channels together in the future.

Toyota only has 5 real brands that can be counted as part of the Toyota group, and as actual brands. I named 4 because Daihatsu is not sold in North America.

[thegriffon]

Although both Hino and Daihatsu have long been partners of Toyota, co-operation had been limited. Only since the recent takeover have the two companies become more integrated into Toyota, with a resulting joint projects such as the new KR-series engines, the Avanza/Xenia subcompact mpv in SE Asia, and the new C-body cars—the Passo and Boon (Sirion) sister cars and now the new bB. Previous vehicles were supplied on an OEM basis, just as Suzuki supplies vehicles to Mazda and Nissan, Mazda to Nissan and Mitsubishi, and Isuzu to Mazda and Nissan (and Nissan to Isuzu).

[Guest gmrebirth]

GM "acquired" Isuzu in the same way Toyota "acquired" Hino. EB is being lax in their use of the word. Isuzu is still publicly talking up their future co-operation with GM, especially in light commercial vehicles. It doesn't hurt that GM is the majority owner of Isuzu's light diesel engine operations, from Isuzu Motors Polska and Isuzu Motors Germany to DMAX, to GMI Diesel Engineering in Japan. Just as Hino engineered the Tacoma, Isuzu was heavily involved in the Colorado. Just as Toyota builds Hino trucks in Long Beach, GM builds Isuzus in Janesville (and Nigeria and Kenya). Isuzu however is 6x as big as Hino globally.

[post="67110"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Show me proof that GM "acquired" Isuzu and that GM's ties with Isuzu are as close as Toyota's ties with Hino.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Although both Hino and Daihatsu have long been partners of Toyota, co-operation had been limited. Only since the recent takeover have the two companies become more integrated into Toyota, with a resulting joint projects such as the new KR-series engines, the Avanza/Xenia subcompact mpv in SE Asia, and the new C-body cars—the Passo and Boon (Sirion) sister cars and now the new bB. Previous vehicles were supplied on an OEM basis, just as Suzuki supplies vehicles to Mazda and Nissan, Mazda to Nissan and Mitsubishi, and Isuzu to Mazda and Nissan (and Nissan to Isuzu).

[post="67124"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And? What's your point?

"Co-operation" between Saab and GM, and Daewoo and GM years ago was virtually non-existent. Only recently has co-operation become tighter.

[thegriffon]

Now you're just going overboard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perodua

"Because Perodua does not actually produce any in house design and engineering for the main components (i.e engine, transmission), some people questions their status as car maker. To some, Perodua are just mere assemblers. Daihatsu owns a majority stake in Perodua."

Shall I start naming off all the Indian and Chinese assemblers that GM is affiliated with?

Perouda is affiliated with Toyota through Daihatsu, but Perouda is NOT a Toyota brand, NOR is it part of the Toyota group. BIG difference.

Same thing with Xiali; it is a joint-venture with Toyota in China, but Xiali is NOT a Toyota brand.

Like I said, I don't see you listing any GM dealer channels or GM affiliates/joint ventures, so cut the crap.

In Japan, many Toyota vehicles get their own unique badging. Does that mean that EACH car is it's own brand? Of course not. Corolla, Netz, and Toyopet are sales channels, not brands.

Are you going to tell me because the Toyota Rav 4, Avensis, Alphard, MR-2, among other models are offered through Netz dealers, these cars are sold under a different brand? Give me a break.

Toyota's dealer channels exist to cater to the unique demands of the Japanese market. All the Netz dealer-sold cars are still sold as Toyotas, not as Netz brand vehicles.

Besides, Toyota wants to possibly further consolidate it's dealer channels together in the future.

Toyota only has 5 real brands that can be counted as part of the Toyota group, and as actual brands. I named 4 because Daihatsu is not sold in North America.

[post="67123"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I did forget Wuling, which GM does count as one of it's Chinese brands. GM's other Chinese affiliates are all merely manufacturing subsidiaries of Shanghai GM (which controls Wuling as well), producing Chevrolets, Buicks and Cadillacs—no added brands. Although they have separate dealer networks I do not count Toyota's different Chinese partners. por your own enlightenment perhaps you could name all these other Chinese and Indian "affiliates". Other than Wuling there are none.

Netz is Japan's version of Scion. While originally bearing Toyota badges new models starting with the bB will recieve a new Netz badge. Creating seperate branding for a dealer channel is far different from using a unique badge for a single model family, and Toyota's sales channels operate exactly like GM's US divisions, with separate websites and their own unique models (even one is a Kluger V and the other a Kluger L). Toyota's consoliudation of it's Japanese sales channels has so far been only in the merger of Netz and Vista into the new, more differentiated Netz channel. The addition of Lexus makes up for the loss. Nissan's sales channels (vestiges of former Datsun, Nissan and Prince brands) have been far more consolidated with no moidel differentiation left at all now that the (Prince) Cedric and (Nissan) Gloria have been replaced by the Fuga, and will soon be eliminated altogether. Mazda tried running separate Mazda, Autozam, efini and Eunos brands, but could not support the investment in separate models. Byuers in Japan have traditionally been very dealer loyal. There are probably many people who consider themselves buying a Toyopet rather than a Toyota. Oh and of course all GM vehicles for many years (not only in the US but Australia as well) carried GM badges, and will do so again int he US. Perhaps we can eliminate Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac and Saturn from the list, since, after all they are just sales channels and they will all have GM badges.

Perodua is a separate brand for Toyota, no matter how little the difference from the Daihatsu models they are based on (and they are different, far more so than a Toyota Passo is different to a Daihatsu Boon). In addition to the domestic Malaysian market Perodua sells its models in other markets such as Europe, where it competes with both Toyota and Daihatsu, despite being controlled by Daihatsu as part of the Toyota group.

[thegriffon]

Show me proof that GM "acquired" Isuzu and that GM's ties with Isuzu are as close as Toyota's ties with Hino.

[post="67125"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Only in EB's use of the word. As for ties beyond the NA joint venture building and marketing medium trucks on Isuzu chassis under the Isuzu, Chevrolet and GMC brands, the is also the AUV project (Isuzu Crosswind/Hilander/Panther and Chevrolet Tavera), the global compact truck project (Isuzu D-Max, Rodeo and Chevrolet Colorado/GMC Canyon), the previous-generation SUVs and pickups (Chevy LUV, Hoden Roldeo, Frontera etc.) IBC Vehicles (now merged back into Vauxhall) for European commercials and SUVs, GM Nigeria and GM Kenya producing Isuzu commerical trucks under the Isuzu brand, GM Thailand producing Isuzu pickups, the continuing diesel engineering ventures (now controlled by GM), and so on. At least as many ties as Toyota/Hino, despite the reduction in equity due to Isuzus earlier financial problems (trucks be a heavily cyclical business). When Isuzu built their own cars they were for a long time derived from GM/Opel designs - the Kadett/Gemini and Ascona/Aska.

Despite what EB says, Toyota only acquired Daihatsu in Sept 1998. They were previously only affiliates, as were GM/Isuzu and Toyota/Hino. Toyota had no more and no less "acquired" Hino prior to 2001 than GM had "acquired" Isuzu.

Only recently did GM actually acquire Daewoo. GM sold their earlier stake in Daewoo when the company set out on it's disastrous export drive. As for co-operation—Daewoo's platforms were all derived from GM/Opel's, and used GM engines, either built under licence and further developed in Korea or imported from GM Holden. (Ironically European imports use a GM Holden Family II 1.8 L, yet Austalian imports now use the newer GM Europe Family 1 1.8L).

Saab has had much loser ties to GM since they coimpany acquired it's 50% stake than many people realise. In addition to engineering GM's fwd manuals and the turbo versions of the Family II (both old iron and new aluminum block), the 9-3 and 9-5 have long been based on different generations of the Opel Vectra—ties far closer than anything between Daihatsu and Toyota until 2003 when the Avanza and Xenia debuted in Indonesia. Basing Saabs on GM models is nothing new. Edited January 3, 2006 by thegriffon