Post-apocolyptic and back to basics

[ocnblu]

We've had some discussion lately here about an old idea that some of us would like to see come back at GM, the whole "more variations per model, fewer models" thing. Well I have a twist and a proposition for you guys. My question is this: let's say the entire Buick division were reduced to the Epsilon II platform LaCrosse, and you are in charge of product planning, based on this restriction... it would be like you are basically sent back to 1960, a time when one basic bodyshell carried the entire Buick division of General Motors successfully. What would your lineup look like? You can shorten the wheelbase, lengthen it, and go with any number of bodystyle and trim variations... but they must all share the same sheetmetal, on the 2010 LaCrosse body, like the LeSabre, Invicta, Electra, et al, did back then. This could be a fun exercise! Have at it!

[capriceman]

Wagon

Coupe

Sedan

I think thats all you can make?

[ocnblu]

What about an "Outback" style wagon? What about a convertible? What about multiple trim levels and short and long wheelbases? Let's try to remember this one basic car has to carry Buick.

[trinacriabob]

Flagship big sedan named Invicta to replace the Park Avenue and larger than the current LaCrosse - unique spirited name, which could handle being "resurrected" after such a time gap - with the intense competition in the $35K to $40K range, it would have to be perfect and there is no margin for error

Riviera (no apologies) - niche coupe - I don't believe for one minute that the market doesn't have room for a personal luxury car, at times when more and more people live alone and are living longer - if they could pull off a premium coupe in the $25K to $32K range that's a show-stopper and NOT UGLY like the CTS coupe or gangsta like the last-gen Monte Carlo, people will buy it

LaCrosse (Allure in Canada) - an entry is, and always will be, needed in this crowded segment, though I don't like the new version of this car

Regal - Epsilon II based and similar in size, and price point, to the Malibu, etc. I would not be heartbroken if the Regal name went away. While they've been great dependable cars since the day they were born, the name has a "frump" factor to it. The names Century, Skylark and Skyhawk are even worse in this regard. However, back to the line-up, currently Buick does not have a true entry-level price point vehicle

Three platforms (or one version, stretched and shrunken, with suspension modifications), but many shared production components....the Invicta and Riviera could definitely be on the same platform...

Edited September 9, 2009 by trinacriabob

[ocnblu]

I'll post my version. See if any of you agree.

Remember, these are all Epsilon II, and all share sheetmetal with the 2010 LaCrosse as the base, with only exterior and interior trim and necessary changes for bodystyle and wheelbase to differentiate them:

Short wheelbase coupe and sedan (needs a name), basic and sporty trim levels. powered by 2.4L DI and 2.0L turbo engines, with 6-speed manual available along with automatic in the turbo engine. Less chrome trim than LaCrosse on the basic trim, with blacked-out trim on the T-Type.

LaCrosse sedan (as is, but drop CX trim) and Riviera coupe and convertible (with high-line trim only). 2.4L DI available in sedan only with V6 optional, Riv is 6-cylinder only.

Long wheelbase flagship sedan and wagon with 7-passenger capacity. Sedan in high-line trim only, wagon in high-line and high-line "Active" trim levels (higher ground clearance, rugged yet elegant trim, like an Audi AllRoad). Most powerful V6 engines as standard.

[A Horse With No Name]

I like Trinicriabob's idea.

Think he pretty much nailed it.

Would like to see a classy fullsize convertible with the Buick name, but that's more a "Chris fantasy' than a "market reality"

Chris

[daves87rs]

Flagship big sedan named Invicta to replace the Park Avenue and larger than the current LaCrosse - unique spirited name, which could handle being "resurrected" after such a time gap - with the intense competition in the $35K to $40K range, it would have to be perfect and there is no margin for error

Riviera (no apologies) - niche coupe - I don't believe for one minute that the market doesn't have room for a personal luxury car, at times when more and more people live alone and are living longer - if they could pull off a premium coupe in the $25K to $32K range that's a show-stopper and NOT UGLY like the CTS coupe or gangsta like the last-gen Monte Carlo, people will buy it

LaCrosse (Allure in Canada) - an entry is, and always will be, needed in this crowded segment, though I don't like the new version of this car

Regal - Epsilon II based and similar in size, and price point, to the Malibu, etc. I would not be heartbroken if the Regal name went away. While they've been great dependable cars since the day they were born, the name has a "frump" factor to it. The names Century, Skylark and Skyhawk are even worse in this regard. However, back to the line-up, currently Buick does not have a true entry-level price point vehicle

Three platforms (or one version, stretched and shrunken, with suspension modifications), but many shared production components....the Invicta and Riviera could definitely be on the same platform...

This.

[balthazar]

A Riv coupe could share the front clip & platform, but feature a unique rear quarter design to further separate it. Velite-ish, perhaps. But IMO, a Riv should wait to debut a bit after the others are settled.

Would like to see the top-line, long wheelbase cars have extended decks, too.

Otherwise, +1 on ocn's proposal.

[trinacriabob]

But IMO, a Riv should wait to debut a bit after the others are settled.

Yes, the dust needs to settle. Depending on the timing a Riv coupe could come onto the scene, I could see myself in the market for one.

A Riviera coupe needs to make jaws drop. North America needs a personal luxury coupe that will, like the first Riviera and the Cutlass Supreme, win the car-buying public's heart.

[Robert Hall]

Yes, the dust needs to settle. Depending on the timing a Riv coupe could come onto the scene, I could see myself in the market for one.

A Riviera coupe needs to make jaws drop. North America needs a personal luxury coupe that will, like the first Riviera and the Cutlass Supreme, win the car-buying public's heart.

A Riviera coupe' version of the LaCrosse could be interesting....with it's own unique metal, lower, distinct fascias, frameless door glass, more pronounced sweep spear and rear 'hips', faster roofline maybe..with the G6 gone, GM has no Epsy/Epsy II coupes any more..

[Justin Bimmer]

Just remember it is LaCrosse in Canada now too!

[trinacriabob]

Just remember it is LaCrosse in Canada now too!

Amazing...it looks like it must have cleared a marketing research hurdle...or they figured out that the Quebecois have a great "joie de vivre"/sense of humor.

[Z-06]

Flagship big sedan named Invicta to replace the Park Avenue and larger than the current LaCrosse - unique spirited name, which could handle being "resurrected" after such a time gap - with the intense competition in the $35K to $40K range, it would have to be perfect and there is no margin for error

Riviera (no apologies) - niche coupe - I don't believe for one minute that the market doesn't have room for a personal luxury car, at times when more and more people live alone and are living longer - if they could pull off a premium coupe in the $25K to $32K range that's a show-stopper and NOT UGLY like the CTS coupe or gangsta like the last-gen Monte Carlo, people will buy it

LaCrosse (Allure in Canada) - an entry is, and always will be, needed in this crowded segment, though I don't like the new version of this car

Regal - Epsilon II based and similar in size, and price point, to the Malibu, etc. I would not be heartbroken if the Regal name went away. While they've been great dependable cars since the day they were born, the name has a "frump" factor to it. The names Century, Skylark and Skyhawk are even worse in this regard. However, back to the line-up, currently Buick does not have a true entry-level price point vehicle

Three platforms (or one version, stretched and shrunken, with suspension modifications), but many shared production components....the Invicta and Riviera could definitely be on the same platform...

How about a hardtop convertible along with the Riviera coupe? The product line will be complete.

[trinacriabob]

How about a hardtop convertible along with the Riviera coupe? The product line will be complete.

Yes. Now that this has been mentioned, sure.

Riviera has always "fit" as a convertible. Still, if I was to buy a Riv, it would be the hardtop coupe. I've come to miss the Riviera, thinking it would always be with us.

[balthazar]

>>"Riviera has always "fit" as a convertible."<<

Interesting: I assume you mean it's position in the heirarchy, and I would agree w/ that.

Jest pointing out that in a 35-40 yr lifespan, it was a convert all of 6 years (or am I missing a later droptop??)

>>"North America needs a personal luxury coupe that will, like the first Riviera and the Cutlass Supreme, win the car-buying public's heart."<<

The first gen Riv won hearts via design, and that has held true thru today & tomm. Look @ the '66-67, relatively forgotten in comparison, tho easily as striking and befitting the 'Riv rep'.

The Cutlass Supreme I would not put into the same category- it sold extremely well, but was it nearly as iconic ??

Just my :twocents: .

Edited September 10, 2009 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

>>"Riviera has always "fit" as a convertible."<<

Interesting: I assume you mean it's position in the heirarchy, and I would agree w/ that.

Jest pointing out that in a 35-40 yr lifespan, it was a convert all of 6 years (or am I missing a later droptop??)

>>"North America needs a personal luxury coupe that will, like the first Riviera and the Cutlass Supreme, win the car-buying public's heart."<<

The first gen Riv won hearts via design, and that has held true thru today & tomm. Look @ the '66-67, relatively forgotten in comparison, tho easily as striking and befitting the 'Riv rep'.

The Cutlass Supreme I would not put into the same category- it sold extremely well, but was it nearly as iconic ??

Just my :twocents: .

The Toronado was Olds' Riviera counterpart, I believe. The Cutlass Supreme coupe was more Olds' Monte Carlo..

[trinacriabob]

The Toronado was Olds' Riviera counterpart, I believe. The Cutlass Supreme coupe was more Olds' Monte Carlo..

Right on...that's exactly right about the Riv/Toro relationship...they were also a price notch below the Eldorado.

With respect to the Cutlass Supreme, it put an elegant, well-constructed, reasonably priced mid-sized coupe into middle-class America's driveway. (In fact, some more affluent people drove them because they were such a good all-around car). The Cutlass Supreme outsold the Monte Carlo because the styling was so clean, lacking the overly sculpted fenders of the Chevrolet.

Another funny tidbit: I was once looking at a Buick brochure where the Regal was described as something of a "pocket Riviera." I thought that was so damn funny. I wish I remember which model year that brochure applied to. Using the same logic, the Cutlass Supreme would then be a "pocket Toronado."

I eagerly await the return of a GM personal luxury coupe at a reasonable price point.

[Robert Hall]

Right on...that's exactly right about the Riv/Toro relationship...they were also a price notch below the Eldorado.

It seems like the whole 'personal luxury' coupe market, at least those at mainstream brands below $40k or so, has died off. The Solara and Monte Carlo were the last ones, since the Sebring is convertible only now. Can the niche make a comeback? It was still very strong throughout the '80s and petered out in the '90s, at least at Ford and GM...

I'm sure there were many reasons as to the decline and ultimate demise of the market segment-- changing demographics and interests of buyers, corporate neglect, corporate distraction w/ the truck & SUV boom of the last 15+ years, etc...

Rob

Edited September 10, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Delta Force79]

As a lifelong Riviera fan, and current final gen Riv owner, I would love to see a new Riv with GM's new high quality interiors and engines. However while I agree a V6 should be in the mix, I feel its should be the base motor with an optional V8. The reason is while I love final gen Riv's I've always felt that despite the fact that they're supercharged and it makes for some bragging rights when people see the supercharged badge on the trunk to say yeah, my car came supercharged from the factory, I always longed for V8 power. There is a certain amount of prestige that goes with saying V8 that is more befitting the name Riviera. That being said, as far as Buick's lineup all being based on the same basic body shell, the Lacrosse is nice and all, but even with 2 doors its no Riviera. The Riviera has always been a unique car in terms of style save for the B-body based 77-78 models, and to a lesser extent the 80- to early 90's models. Finally in 1995 Buick was back on track with a unique design and interior not shared with any other division or Buick, but it was too little too late. Personally I feel that GM was smoking crack in the 90's between dropping full size RWD and not giving the Riviera a chance. Some may argue that 5 models years is enough time, but I think not. A redesigned 2000 Riviera with Northstar power and such might have helped bury the memory of the much unloved '86-93 design. 1999 wasn't even a full model year for the Riv, with production ending in November 1998 IRC.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Delta Force79