An utter world of shit...

[A Horse With No Name]

One of my 16 year old sons friends, who is 17 managed to get drunk with a girl and they wound up having sex. Now she is claiming that it wasn't consensual and is calling it date rape. Son's friend "GARY" (Not his real name) has been in our home in and out for years. Pretty good kid...I can't imagine him raping a girl.

I don't really know what happened, but "Gary" is 20 days away from being 18 and is probably going to be tried as an adult. The judge he is going in front of is female and seems to by all accounts have a whole lot more symapthy for the girl than for "Gary."

Being 18 and being in jail with a sex offense on your record is a lousy way to start life. Sucks to be a horny teenager, I guess. My son is just crushed in every way imaginable watching his friend go through this.

I wish I had good advice for my son or his friend, but I just don't. Hell...my son has had girlfriends, this might as well be him, although he's never had sex with a girl while they were both drunk.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

The thinnest of ice...

Edited September 9, 2009 by Camino LS6

[FAPTurbo]

Pretty much in the top three reasons for why people should never get drunk.

It sucks for the guy, but I think the law is on her side. However, I don't think it's fair to assume a female judge will sympathize more with the girl.

[Justin Bimmer]

I don't know what the laws of consent are in Ohio. But if he is legally able to consent to sex and she is not, then there is a problem.

[Justin Bimmer]

Ohio

The age of consent in Ohio is 16 as specified by Section 2907.04 of Ohio legislation. However there exists a close in age exception where an offender can be charged only if 18 years of age or older. However in that case, it is possible for both minors to be charged as "unruly" if brought to court {§ 2151.022}.

2907.04 Unlawful sexual conduct with minor.

(A) No person who is eighteen years of age or older shall engage in sexual conduct with another, who is not the spouse of the offender, when the offender knows the other person is thirteen years of age or older but less than sixteen years of age, or the offender is reckless in that regard. {§ 2907.04}.

[A Horse With No Name]

The problem isn't age, it's the fact that she was drunk and is saying that she was unwilling to ahve sex.

But thanks for looking that up for me. As the father of three teenagers I wonder about what kind of stunts they are going to pull.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Two words: reasonable doubt.

But there will be no "good" way to end this one.

[Lamar]

I'm guessing that "Gary" didn't force the girl to drink...

[Justin Bimmer]

I'm guessing that "Gary" didn't force the girl to drink...

Doesn't matter. The concepts of criminal rape involves split jurisdictions. Resistance can or cannot be necessary. There are all kinds of factors.

It's coincidental that I had class tonight where we discussed criminal rape.

[cletus8269]

wow. tough situation. we all do stupid things (i dont drink so its worse for me because i am sober during escapades) and for the girl to get horn'd up and then decide oh no... well regrets are one thing ruining someone's life to try and cover your shame is another... one has to wonder though, were precautions taken before the deed?

this situation starkly reminds me of the whole duke lacrosse team scandal.

[daves87rs]

That just sucks.

[trinacriabob]

We live in a sick society, one that still expects (1) men to be breadwinners and pay for dates, while AT THE SAME TIME (2) having to treat women like equals. I'm referring to the judge, who could amount to more poison thrown into the equation. Especially if she's one of these tough butch types.

One time, while channel surfing, I landed on Dr. Laura. She's annoying (and even hypocritical with respect to her own life) but she commented on how today's situation for men of having to be simultaneously traditional (old values) and deferential (new values) is a mess. She was siding with the men.

Claiming date rape is a hefty allegation. They need to look for the use of FORCE. They will probably find NO EVIDENCE of force. Without that, it's consensual...especially when you have two under-age kids porking.

Edited September 9, 2009 by trinacriabob

[Lamar]

Doesn't matter. The concepts of criminal rape involves split jurisdictions. Resistance can or cannot be necessary. There are all kinds of factors.

It's coincidental that I had class tonight where we discussed criminal rape.

What I mean is, the question to ask is "was it consensual until she sobered up?" Her character can be called into question anyway since she was already drinking while underage.

[trinacriabob]

What I mean is, the question to ask is "was it consensual until she sobered up?" Her character can be called into question anyway since she was already drinking while underage.

+1

Yes, that needed to be mentioned. The fact that they were BOTH drinking speaks volumes and brings their character issues under the microscope.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

In regards to "Gary" it sounds like he is going to get screwed... (Might've been a bad choice of words)

I've always thought the "cry rape" laws were a crock of $h!. But then, I can't really come up with a better solution and I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be raped, so I guess they're as good as we as a society can do.

Doesn't matter. The concepts of criminal rape involves split jurisdictions. Resistance can or cannot be necessary. There are all kinds of factors.

It's coincidental that I had class tonight where we discussed criminal rape.

That's always an interesting discussion... Here in NC, if I'm not mistaken, once said female is over the legal limit (doesn't matter who bought her the drinks, as you mentioned) it can technically be considered rape, consensual or not simply because said female is in an altered state of mind.

With that in mind, TECHNICALLY even a wife could charge her husband with rape with not much effort or sweat. Is it right? I dunno... Just glad I don't have the burden of having to decide.

Edited September 9, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[regfootball]

We live in a sick society, one that still expects (1) men to be breadwinners and pay for dates, while AT THE SAME TIME (2) having to treat women like equals. I'm referring to the judge, who could amount to more poison thrown into the equation. Especially if she's one of these tough butch types.

One time, while channel surfing, I landed on Dr. Laura. She's annoying (and even hypocritical with respect to her own life) but she commented on how today's situation for men of having to be simultaneously traditional (old values) and deferential (new values) is a mess. She was siding with the men.

Claiming date rape is a hefty allegation. They need to look for the use of FORCE. They will probably find NO EVIDENCE of force. Without that, it's consensual...especially when you have two under-age kids porking.

not directly saying that this constitutes 'asking for it', but as i had my kids at the mall to play again the other day (something you do when you are long unemployed) and seeing just how slutty and promiscuous girls even as young as 10-12 dress these days, i can't help but think these girls need a serious education on the messages they are sending and a serious education on understanding that its not neccessary to be fashionable and succumb to peer pressure all the time.

i am not suggesting we need to be a nation of prudes but honestly if you put out the vibe (which may or may not be the case, in this case) in the way you live, people can in face make inferences on whether you would be more than willing to put themselves in and to give in in a situation like this.

it is true about women wanting both sides of the fence. its exactly as you say. how many women want to have the job, but then really want their men to make 3x money so they can stay home if they want.

Edited September 10, 2009 by regfootball

[trinacriabob]

it is true about women wanting both sides of the fence. its exactly as you say. how many women want to have the job, but then really want their men to make 3x money so they can stay home if they want.

Yeah, reg, I hear you. I'm harshly realistic and some people don't want to hear the unfiltered view.

A lady who works across the hall from me has started opening up, telling me about how she'd like to move back to where she's from and her past life/work experiences. She told me she's only had problems with catty women in the workforce and NEVER with men. I asked NEVER? She said NEVER. I was taken aback, never thinking I'd hear something like this from her since she's assertive, an athlete (cyclist) and highly educated.

Here's what I've seen in the work force, especially when it's a pyramid-shaped professional services firm when there are frequent written evaluations:

(a) Men NEVER treat women poorly *

(b) Men treat mean in an all-over the checkerboard manner (often depends on whether they share common interests, unfortunately)

(c ) Women treat women better than they would treat men (they seem to be threatened by professional childless women who have better credentials when they worked their way up and have less interesting credentials because they had kids earlier on)

(d) Women OFTEN treat men poorly (the most likely combo of these 4 for poor treatment) **

* we have to play the daddy role and "hold their hand" professionally - you can't believe to extent to which a few women who worked for me looked to me for mentorship, go figure

** I have seen it get to the point that senior management has commented that certain women caused certain men to cycle out of the firm/company who would have otherwise stayed

Even though the OP is about "date rape," to me, the whole head trip seems to align with these 4 scenarios.

Edited September 10, 2009 by trinacriabob

[ShadowDog]

But booze is cool and sex is fun and teens are clueless about cause and effect in life.

...not that this sort of thing doesn't happen to adults anyway.

[Justin Bimmer]

Use of force DOES NOT have to be an element for rape in many states.

[A Horse With No Name]

A lady who works across the hall from me has started opening up, telling me about how she'd like to move back to where she's from and her past life/work experiences. She told me she's only had problems with catty women in the workforce and NEVER with men. I asked NEVER? She said NEVER. I was taken aback, never thinking I'd hear something like this from her since she's assertive, an athlete (cyclist) and highly educated.

The daughter of a friend of mine, who was about 16 at the time, made a comment that has always stayed with me.

She said .."I wish I was a guy. Guys can take it out in the parking lot, knock each other down in a fight, get up, shake hands, and its over and they are friends again. Girls can say one wrong thing and a four year friendship is over forever."

I find a LOT of truth to what she said.

Chris

[toesuf94]

Good luck to "Gary" - he is really going to need it!

Sadly, it is always somebody elses fault these days: She is 16 and drunk - where the HELL are the parents of this girl? He is 17 and Drunk - where the hell are HIS parents? Who bought the alcohol? Where did this take place? There are so many fingers to point on this one it makes me sick.

"Gary" just trying to have a good time went too far...and so did "Sally"...so now when her mom/dad find out about what happened - "Sally" cries RAPE. Was NOT her fault! She didn't mean to get drunk at a party her friends made her go to. This just goes on and on...

Chris, have your son stay close to "Gary" - this is the kind of thing that can push a young man to take the "easy way out"...and that would only make this situation even more tragic.

[regfootball]

But booze is cool and sex is fun and teens are clueless about cause and effect in life.

...not that this sort of thing doesn't happen to adults anyway.

oh it does. people are young, hook up, have babies, get married, then they split up and go through their second teenage phase.

i see all sorts of that with the people who are my contemps.

its like they are trying to relive the whole dating / bar / hookup phase.

everyone needs a second chance to try to be happy i guess.....

[regfootball]

Good luck to "Gary" - he is really going to need it!

Sadly, it is always somebody elses fault these days: She is 16 and drunk - where the HELL are the parents of this girl? He is 17 and Drunk - where the hell are HIS parents? Who bought the alcohol? Where did this take place? There are so many fingers to point on this one it makes me sick.

"Gary" just trying to have a good time went too far...and so did "Sally"...so now when her mom/dad find out about what happened - "Sally" cries RAPE. Was NOT her fault! She didn't mean to get drunk at a party her friends made her go to. This just goes on and on...

Chris, have your son stay close to "Gary" - this is the kind of thing that can push a young man to take the "easy way out"...and that would only make this situation even more tragic.

when gary met sally (sorry, had to).

yeah, where were the parents. i know, you can't put a lid on fun.

[regfootball]

The daughter of a friend of mine, who was about 16 at the time, made a comment that has always stayed with me.

She said .."I wish I was a guy. Guys can take it out in the parking lot, knock each other down in a fight, get up, shake hands, and its over and they are friends again. Girls can say one wrong thing and a four year friendship is over forever."

I find a LOT of truth to what she said.

Chris

because guys are comfortable in their own skin. and women are masse insecure.

a guy can tell another guy to f@#k off, and its fine because he doesn't need to be loved by everyone. likewise a guy can have a bromance with another guy and be joey and chandler 'best buds', but a guy is always pretty good about satisfying his own inner happiness before another guy.

women are so focused on acceptance in so many ways, and advertising and peer pressure has their self worth reduced as close to zero as possible since birth, so.......they really focus a lot on what others think.

[trinacriabob]

She said .."I wish I was a guy. Guys can take it out in the parking lot, knock each other down in a fight, get up, shake hands, and its over and they are friends again. Girls can say one wrong thing and a four year friendship is over forever."

Never had it that heated. Generally, I've had these marginally intense raised voice arguments in an office setting that seem to shake themselves out over time. You won't be the person's lunch buddy, but you'll be able to carry on with your work.

But you're right, I think women must process their cat fights in a whole different way, it seems......hhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[regfootball]

Yeah, reg, I hear you. I'm harshly realistic and some people don't want to hear the unfiltered view.

A lady who works across the hall from me has started opening up, telling me about how she'd like to move back to where she's from and her past life/work experiences. She told me she's only had problems with catty women in the workforce and NEVER with men. I asked NEVER? She said NEVER. I was taken aback, never thinking I'd hear something like this from her since she's assertive, an athlete (cyclist) and highly educated.

Here's what I've seen in the work force, especially when it's a pyramid-shaped professional services firm when there are frequent written evaluations:

(a) Men NEVER treat women poorly *

(b) Men treat mean in an all-over the checkerboard manner (often depends on whether they share common interests, unfortunately)

(c ) Women treat women better than they would treat men (they seem to be threatened by professional childless women who have better credentials when they worked their way up and have less interesting credentials because they had kids earlier on)

(d) Women OFTEN treat men poorly (the most likely combo of these 4 for poor treatment) **

* we have to play the daddy role and "hold their hand" professionally - you can't believe to extent to which a few women who worked for me looked to me for mentorship, go figure

** I have seen it get to the point that senior management has commented that certain women caused certain men to cycle out of the firm/company who would have otherwise stayed

Even though the OP is about "date rape," to me, the whole head trip seems to align with these 4 scenarios.

a lot of women stay afloat / "excel" / keep their jobs simply because they are hot or know how to work it with men. you won't hear this from just me either. lots of 'on the level' women (those who do perform their jobs well) get passed up in careers for the young hot socially savvy women.

men even get passed up a lot for this.

some mid-late twenties hottie with a new fresh mba and hardly a lick of experience will get a job and pay and promotions that 'the rest of us' won't see ever for various reasons. it kind of makes me sick, as much as i like to be visually stimulated in the workplace.......

thing is high levels of employment is more of a social club than anything. in order to get into this club, you need to have looks and social savvy to continue to propogate the dysfunction that is corporate america. this is also why we have -so many- marketing, sales, 'consulting', 'project management', finance, hr, (i.e. non producing, non technical careers) these days.

[aaaantoine]

That's always an interesting discussion... Here in NC, if I'm not mistaken, once said female is over the legal limit (doesn't matter who bought her the drinks, as you mentioned) it can technically be considered rape, consensual or not simply because said female is in an altered state of mind.

This is completely ass-backwards. Regardless how much liquor you have in your system, if you imbibed it voluntarily you are still 100% responsible for your own actions.

Maybe that's not the law, but there's no reason it shouldn't be.

[Drew Dowdell]

Women are bitches.... I'm done with 'em.

[Z-06]

In all seriousness, can a gay or lesbian claim rape when done in a homosexual act?

Have there been any instances of such?

[A Horse With No Name]

Women are bitches.... I'm done with 'em.

I can understand the sentiment...

Chris

[Paolino]

In all seriousness, can a gay or lesbian claim rape when done in a homosexual act?

Have there been any instances of such?

Yes, I've heard of gay rape.

[The O.C.]

This is completely ass-backwards. Regardless how much liquor you have in your system, if you imbibed it voluntarily you are still 100% responsible for your own actions.

Maybe that's not the law, but there's no reason it shouldn't be.

You just made THE point of this whole discussion......and a major problem with our world today!

PEOPLE SIMPLY REFUSE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS! (Old woman that spilled McDonald's hot coffee on herself...etc.)

Girls like this "Sally" should have to PROVE rape.....not have it be such an easily accessible "excuse."

I would think signs of force or trauma MUST be visible in order for a rape accusation to have any viability. If it's not visible, did "Sally" just lay there, take it, without any attempt to fight back? It just makes me sick to my stomach how many times this word is thrown about because someone got drunk, f@#ked up, did something they shouldn't, maybe afterwards got in trouble with their parents for it....and decided....I'll just yell "Rape!"

(Of course I realize there are true instances when rape does occur.....but I'm sorry....this is situation does not sound like some burglar breaking into your house, forceably bonding and tying your wife down, and forcing sex with her.....)

[Drew Dowdell]

In all seriousness, can a gay or lesbian claim rape when done in a homosexual act?

Have there been any instances of such?

of course

[trinacriabob]

thing is high levels of employment is more of a social club than anything. in order to get into this club, you need to have looks and social savvy to continue to propogate the dysfunction that is corporate america.

I wholeheartedly agree, as you know. Especially for some superficial areas of business, it's about 65% peripheral stuff and 35% know-how. I seriously doubt if people pick their dentist based on his/her golf game.

[Z-06]

of course

Who does the law side "blindlessly" in such a case?

[Justin Bimmer]

When it comes to homosexuals and "rape" usually the statutory law involves other types of crimes besides rape which is typically when "a penis penetrates a vagina"

And usually the one doing the penetrating is the one that ends up being charged in homosexual sex crimes.

[ShadowDog]

Hey, is it at all possible that her parents filled her head full of crap to insist she take this to the authorities? If not, I can imagine her fright if she were completely plastered, only later to find out about it and question how it happened in the first place with to blame him entirely. Still, parents with the 'my child can do no wrong' play a heavy role in cases like this.

[Dsuupr]

everyone needs a second chance to try to be happy i guess.....

And there is the problem. I don't care if you, or my kids, are happy. I care that we, including my kids, do the RIGHT thing. Happiness will come from doing the right thing, not from doing things what makes you happy.

Case in point: Speeding down the highway at 100+mph makes me happy, but will not bring me happiness, especially once I have killed someone or lost my license. Going a "safe & legal" speed on my way to the race way to drive a vehicle 100+mph will bring me happiness.

I believe: we need to stop caring if our kids our happy, and start caring about our kids doing the right thing.

I do feel bad for the kid being blamed for something he most likely can't even remember, but I do hope that the other kids take a lesson from it. DON'T DRINK WHEN YOU ARE UNDERAGE! DON'T HAVE SEX UNTIL YOU ARE IN A "COMMITTED" RELATIONSHIP (and old enough to accept the consequences of your action)! Either of those alone are a recipe for disaster, when you put them together you are just guaranteeing trouble.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Dsuupr

[regfootball]

And there is the problem. I don't care if you, or my kids, are happy. I care that we, including my kids, do the RIGHT thing. Happiness will come from doing the right thing, not from doing things what makes you happy.

Case in point: Speeding down the highway at 100+mph makes me happy, but will not bring me happiness, especially once I have killed someone or lost my license. Going a "safe & legal" speed on my way to the race way to drive a vehicle 100+mph will bring me happiness.

I believe: we need to stop caring if our kids our happy, and start caring about our kids doing the right thing.

I do feel bad for the kid being blamed for something he most likely can't even remember, but I do hope that the other kids take a lesson from it. DON'T DRINK WHEN YOU ARE UNDERAGE! DON'T HAVE SEX UNTIL YOU ARE IN A "COMMITTED" RELATIONSHIP (and old enough to accept the consequences of your action)! Either of those alone are a recipe for disaster, when you put them together you are just guaranteeing trouble.

you do realize that that post is 100% true but that society in the US and the younger me first generation in particular is exactly the opposite?

not much of a value system going on in this country lately....

[Croc]

(Old woman that spilled McDonald's hot coffee on herself...etc.)

Chris, don't be a fool. The McDonald's coffee case was won by the plaintiff because McDonald's was behaving recklessly with their serving temperatures. Do some basic research on this case before you trot it out as an example of a frivolous lawsuit because anyone who DOES know about this case will immediately discount you as talking out of your ass.

http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts

[Croc]

When it comes to homosexuals and "rape" usually the statutory law involves other types of crimes besides rape which is typically when "a penis penetrates a vagina"

Really? So a man can rape a woman anally and it isn't rape? Yeah, I don't think so.

Rape is usually statutorily defined along the lines of forced insertion of an object into another's orifice without consent.

[aaaantoine]

In all seriousness, can a gay or lesbian claim rape when done in a homosexual act?

Have there been any instances of such?

When it happens with men, it's called sodomy.

As for women... I dunno, I think it depends on what gets stuck where.

[Justin Bimmer]

Really? So a man can rape a woman anally and it isn't rape? Yeah, I don't think so.

Rape is usually statutorily defined along the lines of forced insertion of an object into another's orifice without consent.

In California "Rape" is penis into vagina. There are other criminal statutes that define what other forms of sexual misconduct are.

"Oral Copulation" is penis into mouth.

The judge read it to us right out of the California Jury Instructions.

[Croc]

Wow, I looked up the penal code, and I'm left wondering why exactly the CA laws evolved into what they are. You're right, but that is highly unusual.

[ocnblu]

Check your spelling. I think that should have been "penile code". You're welcome!

[Croc]

In your mind, only.

[trinacriabob]

In your mind, only.

+1

Could you imagine seeing that "typo" on a legal brief written by a student in a law curriculum somewhere?

Let's get back to the matter at hand...the kid in trouble...

[ocnblu]

sry

[regfootball]

thx 4 teh chuckle!

[Robert Hall]

Chris, don't be a fool. The McDonald's coffee case was won by the plaintiff because McDonald's was behaving recklessly with their serving temperatures. Do some basic research on this case before you trot it out as an example of a frivolous lawsuit because anyone who DOES know about this case will immediately discount you as talking out of your ass.

http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts

That was incompetence on the woman's part. She put the coffee cup between her legs. Coffee cups are supposed to go in a cupholder.