Edmunds/IL: Buick Lacrosse vs Es350... and Wins

[Cmicasa the Great]

The mahogany-tinted high-gloss wood looks like it came from a downmarket furniture store, and what's with the old Mercedes-style shift gate for the shift lever? And we nearly called an anthropologist when we spied the ES 350's cassette tape player. Sure, Lexus drivers are known enthusiasts of books on tape, but does Mark Levinson know it's still there?

What at first appeared to be a put-up-or-shut-up proposition for Buick has resulted in a thorough embarrassment for Lexus. The two entry-level luxury sedans are effectively tied in our ratings of performance and fuel, but every place else — evaluation scores, feature content and price — the 2010 Buick LaCrosse walks away from the 2009 Lexus ES 350 with a decisive 17-point victory.

We're not saying the Lexus ES 350 is not a fine automobile; we're just saying its time has passed as a standard by which entry-level luxury sedans are to be measured. For that, you must consider the 2010 Buick LaCrosse CXS as the new leader in its class.

At first we questioned GM's strategy, not only with the LaCrosse itself but also with the notion of Buick as a genuine competitor for Lexus. But after this comparison, we have no doubt that the 2010 Buick LaCrosse is a game-changing, brand-defining automobile that will go far to both revitalize Buick and promote the new General Motors.

LINK to the Beating

[Cmicasa the Great]

Those two interior shots ALONE, not to mention the absolutely magnificent exterior, would have been enuff to get my mony over the ES350. I personally think that with a V8.. or turbo 3.0 or 3.6L with at least 360HP.. the Lacrosse could be a GS competitor... and WIN. It just slaughtered this Camry Fraternal Twin.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hey GM! Remember when you put the Camry and Accord next to the Aura and Malibu in showrooms? Time to bring that idea back.

[CSpec]

This is great news. Let's hope they can turn critical acclaim into sales, something they failed to do with some other cars like the old SRX.

[Blake Noble]

Why does the Lexus's interior remind me of this?

[FAPTurbo]

A cassette player? I know Toyota wanted to build a better Buick, but that's taking the concept a little too far.

[regfootball]

great start for the new buick. i will say this, the lacrosse is quite gorgeous in person.

[Justin Bimmer]

Books on tape are like the last bastion of cassettes in America. My mom gets them from the library. Fortunately, they are phasing them out and going to books on CD now.

[Paolino]

Books on tape are like the last bastion of cassettes in America. My mom gets them from the library. Fortunately, they are phasing them out and going to books on CD now.

The other night my friend's mother was complaining she didn't like books on CD. Her reason kept me biting my tongue... she said she liked it that if you stopped a tape, it resumed where you left off. I felt like saying (since she said she listened in the car), "So does a CD."

[smk4565]

I don't like that they changed their normal testing procedures to value performance less (an area where Buick is weak) and value content more (an area where Buick is strong). It probably would have been closer with their normal scoring. It is a good win for Buick. By why pay $39-43k for a dressed up Camry or Malibu when you can get a 375 hp rear drive Genesis instead.

The ES350's wood trim over the half the cupholder might be my most hated piece of interior design on any current car. The Lexus GS also has a tape player, obviously Lexus wants a big chunk of that AARP demographic that Buick goes after.

[ZL-1]

By why pay $39-43k for a dressed up Camry or Malibu when you can get a 375 hp rear drive Genesis instead.

Many (most?) people want a comfortable, well dressed car to move around in and do not pay attention to it being RWD or FWD. And there's also the Klingon forehead grille issue...

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't like that they changed their normal testing procedures to value performance less (an area where Buick is weak) and value content more (an area where Buick is strong). It probably would have been closer with their normal scoring. It is a good win for Buick. By why pay $39-43k for a dressed up Camry or Malibu when you can get a 375 hp rear drive Genesis instead.

The ES350's wood trim over the half the cupholder might be my most hated piece of interior design on any current car. The Lexus GS also has a tape player, obviously Lexus wants a big chunk of that AARP demographic that Buick goes after.

Do you really think that skidpad and slalom numbers should be weighted higher than comfort and interior quality in these kind of cars? You're more off your rocker than everyone already thinks.....

People in this class don't care about being the fastest. In fact, they probably care about fuel economy more than speed. How is a 375hp Genesis going to help them there?

[smk4565]

Do you really think that skidpad and slalom numbers should be weighted higher than comfort and interior quality in these kind of cars? You're more off your rocker than everyone already thinks.....

People in this class don't care about being the fastest. In fact, they probably care about fuel economy more than speed. How is a 375hp Genesis going to help them there?

I know marshmallow ride and soft seats is what is going to sell these cars, but if a magazine or website has a standardized testing procedure and scoring system, why change it. It makes it look like they rigged the test to suit one of the vehicles. The Genesis has a V6 too that will get the same mileage either of these cars get. The Buick only averaged 18.5 mpg, it isn't like it is sipping fuel anyway. I haven't been in the Lacrosse, but the Genesis interior blows away the Camry Delux, eerrr I mean ES350's interior.

[Robert Hall]

GM is addressing the soft lux market w/ the LaCrosse, taking the same approach Toyota does with the Avalon and ES and Lincoln with the MKS, basing it on a mainstream platform. It's an approach that's been very successful for Toyota.

Cadillac has the performance lux market covered w/ the CTS..

Edited August 31, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

I know marshmallow ride and soft seats is what is going to sell these cars, but if a magazine or website has a standardized testing procedure and scoring system, why change it. It makes it look like they rigged the test to suit one of the vehicles. The Genesis has a V6 too that will get the same mileage either of these cars get. The Buick only averaged 18.5 mpg, it isn't like it is sipping fuel anyway. I haven't been in the Lacrosse, but the Genesis interior blows away the Camry Delux, eerrr I mean ES350's interior.

I've maintained for a while that testing of cars should be geared to the cars purpose. I take a lot of issue when the auto rags use the same series of tests on the econo boxes as they would on the luxury sport sedans. Do we really care that the Versa can pull .02g more than the Aveo on the skidpad? Probably not, yet the rags still do it and put a rather heavy weighting on it. Likewise, testing a Mitsubishi EVO for how many golfbags the trunk can hold. Simply pointless.

Cheers and Gears is in the process of developing a rating system for performing our own car reviews. One of the aspects of our system is going to be market segment based reviewing. So, yes in our reviews we will have a set of standards for which plush luxury is judged and a set of standards for which sport luxury is judged. Likewise for economy cars, family sedans, trucks, suvs, CUVs, etc.

If you want to have a voice in the development of this system, please post your ideas in that thread.

[Justin Bimmer]

I can 99% promise you that ANYBODY buying either one of these cars has performance LAST on their list of what they are looking for in a car. If performance isn't last, they either don't know what they are talking about, or they are insane and should have their license revoked.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hey GM! Remember when you put the Camry and Accord next to the Aura and Malibu in showrooms? Time to bring that idea back.

+1

Chris

The damned Buick deserved to win that one for sure...

[Cmicasa the Great]

The direct-injection 3.6-liter V6 in the 2010 Buick LaCrosse CXS makes more power than the Lexus V6 with 280 hp and it does so with regular-grade fuel. At the same time, it also has to stir more than 2 tons of luxury sedan, which translates into an average of 18.5 mpg in our testing, while the official EPA rating is 21 mpg. The Buick never ever feels overburdened, but it just doesn't accomplish overtaking maneuvers as effortlessly as the Lexus. The transmission programming in the Buick is also busier than that of the Lexus, prioritizing fuel savings instead of seamless, unobtrusive power.

It's not a huge surprise the lighter ES 350 (by a whopping 472 pounds) outpaced the slightly more powerful Buick at the test track by about a half-second across all the sampled speeds. Then again, if a half-second matters to you, then you might be shopping in the wrong showroom. (Sport sedans are on the other side, sir, next to the branded athletic

Hey Oldsmoboi and "007"... That quote above, in particular the part I underlined says a lot.. and I agree with U and it.

A very interesting point I have tussled with for quite a while since ascending past that stage in life where 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times were the motivation for getting me in the showroom and writing a check. OK OK... I know what I just bought, but lets be honest... I've been raving about the CTS since it debuted in 304HP 3.6L form with the looks and luxo to beat the 535i in every way except acceleration times. The Vseries version was an absolute necessity for me. as this time around I had to have the TOP OF THE LINE.

Corvettes against Vipers, GT-Rs and 911s, CTS-Vs against M5s, G8s against Chargers, Camaros vs Mustangs??? Absolutely.. it makes sense. Performance in straights, performance on corners, absolutely stunning looks that put people in awe when they are just standing still. Yup... even the GT-R as ugly as it is (sorta like the way U would still have to stare if Rosie O'Donnel walked in front of U with no clothes on and bent over in the Doggy Style Position. U'd have to look...) it still elicits attention. PERFORMANCE cars, yes, as that is their intended function.

Luxo for the Luxo Intended

With looming CAFE standards on the horizon, it is an automatic assumption that performance on mainstream vehicles would take a back seat to fuel economy. With Luxury tho... I am witnessing a situation not so much to do with fuel economy, altho that certainly seems to be part of the picture, but more so with amenities and OPTIONS. The Buick Lacrosse is a prime example of this. I still stand by the idea that the 3.6L should be the putting out the 304HP the Camaro and CTS, but I am seeing the light and reasoning behind why GM is offering the 3.0L and upcoming 2.4L. Truth is in that situation the 3.0L is capable of 270HP on it's own (see CTS) putting that engine in the Lacrosse would automatically demand that the 304 version be used as the top offering.. but GM goes a different route, perhaps realizing that 90% of the buyers of these type of cars simply does not have a weekend passes at the local race way. I mean.. normally I would be comparing the Lacrosse's 0-60 times, win or lose, to the Lexus ES's... but then LOOK AT THEM. The way the Lacrosse looks in interior and exterior styling.. not to mention it's superior luxury appointments compared to the ES350... and one automatically has to completely see pass that .5 sec loss. I won't mention that the ES350 is a half a foot shorter than the Lacrosse is not as wide and has a shorter Wheel base. But the performance enthusiast has to say that. Will U seriously feel the "SEAT OF THE PANTS" 5/10ths difference wen U are driving the Buick compared to the Lexus??? I doubt it.. specially when U take a look at what's surrounding U via interior refinements and stunning luxury fitments.

GM is following the CTS formula it would seem. Luxury >(greater than) than Straight Performance <(less than) Overall performance including owner satisfaction. The SRX seems to run this same song. I mean I have challenged and asked every Escalade owner I kno.. "How does it feel to kno that U can run down a Porsche Boxster and Mercedes SLK and BEAT THEM???" 9 outta 10 tell me they have never even tested that notion. They bought it for the "WHY Apologize" part of it all... the Luxury and prestige.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Cmicasa the Great

[cire]

Many (most?) people want a comfortable, well dressed car to move around in and do not pay attention to it being RWD or FWD. And there's also the Klingon forehead grille issue...

I agree. I know a lot of enthusiasts are excited about the Genesis sedan because it's RWD, but I think the entire overall exterior design isn't very impressive. The 2010 LaCrosse is a beautiful car, even though it happens to be FWD.

[cletus8269]

I don't like that they changed their normal testing procedures to value performance less (an area where Buick is weak) and value content more (an area where Buick is strong). It probably would have been closer with their normal scoring. It is a good win for Buick. By why pay $39-43k for a dressed up Camry or Malibu when you can get a 375 hp rear drive Genesis instead.

The ES350's wood trim over the half the cupholder might be my most hated piece of interior design on any current car. The Lexus GS also has a tape player, obviously Lexus wants a big chunk of that AARP demographic that Buick goes after.

so let me get this straight. when the "performance driven" CTS-V handily smacks an M5 around the track all day long the problem is yeah but the M5's interior has... but when buick outdoes a supposed luxo car in the interior department of a luxo car its "lacking in performance"...?

i got a headache...

Edited September 1, 2009 by cletus8269

[Northstar]

Sat in the LaCrosse tonight... very nice inside. My dad liked it quite a bit, but I'd never buy one, and after driving the GTO for the last year and a half or so, he loves the rumble and handling of V8, RWD cars now, so he'd have a tough time picking one over a G8.

[Paolino]

I know marshmallow ride and soft seats is what is going to sell these cars, but if a magazine or website has a standardized testing procedure and scoring system, why change it. It makes it look like they rigged the test to suit one of the vehicles. The Genesis has a V6 too that will get the same mileage either of these cars get. The Buick only averaged 18.5 mpg, it isn't like it is sipping fuel anyway. I haven't been in the Lacrosse, but the Genesis interior blows away the Camry Delux, eerrr I mean ES350's interior.

Where does it say marshmallow ride and soft seats for the LaCrosse?

When we drove the LaCrosse and ES 350 side-by-side during our comparison testing, it was immediately evident that the standard, heated/ventilated, leather-upholstered front seats in the 2010 Buick LaCrosse CXS were far more comfortable and supportive than the ES 350's optional seats. (Leather upholstery isn't even standard on the 2009 Lexus ES 350.)

From behind the Buick CXS's standard heated steering wheel, we found its ride far more controlled and yet soothing than that of the squishy Lexus. The LaCrosse CXS has standard two-mode self-adjusting shock absorbers that do an excellent job of damping out impacts with a single(!) rebound stroke. In comparison, the Lexus feels soggy with its soft springs, and the traditional dampers allow the body to oscillate through at least two suspension cycles after an impact.

[regfootball]

I can 99% promise you that ANYBODY buying either one of these cars has performance LAST on their list of what they are looking for in a car. If performance isn't last, they either don't know what they are talking about, or they are insane and should have their license revoked.

true....to a point. if i blow 35k on a car, it had better do faster than 7.0 0-60......

[Cmicasa the Great]

Sat in the LaCrosse tonight... very nice inside. My dad liked it quite a bit, but I'd never buy one, and after driving the GTO for the last year and a half or so, he loves the rumble and handling of V8, RWD cars now, so he'd have a tough time picking one over a G8.

Two totally different demographics.. and one that I HOPE GM will see fit to address with the next Impala or a Lacrosse "Super." An AWD version with a turboed 3.0L or 3.6L with 370 or 400HP respectively would fit the bill. Anyone who has heard or driven a 3.6L Camaro will attest that it's exhaust note is nothing to laugh at at.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Cmicasa the Great

[Drew Dowdell]

true....to a point. if i blow 35k on a car, it had better do faster than 7.0 0-60......

Why? A half second faster to 60 is that important to you?

I got over the 0-60 times thing when I had my '04 CTS. Doesn't help me at all when I'm creeping through rush hour traffic at 45mph.

[smk4565]

so let me get this straight. when the "performance driven" CTS-V handily smacks an M5 around the track all day long the problem is yeah but the M5's interior has... but when buick outdoes a supposed luxo car in the interior department of a luxo car its "lacking in performance"...?

i got a headache...

I am saying between the Buick and the Lexus, the Buick has less performance and more features, and the test was made to reward performance less than usual and features more than normal. So it looks like Edmunds changed the scoring to favor Buick. So I wonder with their regular scoring would the Buick still have won.

The 472 extra pounds is a problem, GM vehicles are too heavy and it drags their mpg numbers down.

[Robert Hall]

Why? A half second faster to 60 is that important to you?

I got over the 0-60 times thing when I had my '04 CTS. Doesn't help me at all when I'm creeping through rush hour traffic at 45mph.

Ya, I have no idea what the 0-60 of my Jeep (195 hp, 4500lbs) is, and I don't care...it's a comfortable daily driver commuter wagon...0-60 doesn't matter in city and suburban stop-and-go traffic.

[Drew Dowdell]

I am saying between the Buick and the Lexus, the Buick has less performance and more features, and the test was made to reward performance less than usual and features more than normal. So it looks like Edmunds changed the scoring to favor Buick. So I wonder with their regular scoring would the Buick still have won.

The 472 extra pounds is a problem, GM vehicles are too heavy and it drags their mpg numbers down.

The Buick finished 17 points ahead of the Lexus. They said that the points for performance were statistically the same. So I'd say that yes, even with the content section of the test weighted less, the Buick still would have one.

[A Horse With No Name]

Two totally different demographics.. and one that I HOPE GM will see fit to address with the next Impala or a Lacrosse "Super." An AWD version with a turboed 3.0L or 3.6L with 370 or 400HP respectively would fit the bill. Anyone who has heard or driven a 3.6L Camaro will attest that it's exhaust note is nothing to laugh at at.

I had my convertible top down and was following a V6 3.6L Camaro through traffic....NICE exhaust note....

Chris

[cletus8269]

I am saying between the Buick and the Lexus, the Buick has less performance and more features, and the test was made to reward performance less than usual and features more than normal. So it looks like Edmunds changed the scoring to favor Buick. So I wonder with their regular scoring would the Buick still have won.

The 472 extra pounds is a problem, GM vehicles are too heavy and it drags their mpg numbers down.

uh, possibly because its between to comfy luxury sedans and not luxury sport sedans. if this was CTS-V vs IS-F i would understand why performance carries more weight.

yup you got em, they are reverse biased now, tremble TMC at the power of media bias!

the weight isnt that huge of a difference in the mi... eh forget it.

probably what happend is they went with buick cause the red was prettier than the dull humbug black...

[cletus8269]

Two totally different demographics.. and one that I HOPE GM will see fit to address with the next Impala or a Lacrosse "Super." An AWD version with a turboed 3.0L or 3.6L with 370 or 400HP respectively would fit the bill. Anyone who has heard or driven a 3.6L Camaro will attest that it's exhaust note is nothing to laugh at at.

dont forget that slp had a turbo kit for those to that put them right up there with the stock v8 fbodies. my buddy had a 99 v6 firebird with a set of flowmaster 50's. sounded good.

[A Horse With No Name]

Think Cmisaca was talking about the 2010 Camaro with the 3.6 perhaps.

But the older cars sounded good also...Pam, a friend of mine from the Miata club, has a brother with an older V6 Camaro, 97 I think.

Those can be made to sound good also.

But the 2010 flavor is the object of my lust right now.

[cletus8269]

Think Cmisaca was talking about the 2010 Camaro with the 3.6 perhaps.

But the older cars sounded good also...Pam, a friend of mine from the Miata club, has a brother with an older V6 Camaro, 97 I think.

Those can be made to sound good also.

But the 2010 flavor is the object of my lust right now.

hehe whoops... i forget theres a v6 model that people want this go round