Saving the GTO Pt II

[turbo200]

Per thegriffon's request, I am posting a Turbo Edition revised version of the "Saving the GTO" thread. :) Please vote again in this one, please voice your opinion on this issue as it is a clarified poll, and, well, two polls are better than one to get GM's attention with. :P

Are you a Pontiac fanatic at heart? Do you lust over the '69 Firebird like i do. That dramatic nose, the raising strong shoulders, all accuentated by a strong yet shapely rump. Ah, beautiful car.

Pontiac really could use a revival. A return to its performance roots and design roots are the necessary steps to give this brand a reason to exist, and a reason for people to lust after it. The "not enough" G6 just isn't this product, the GXP tries, but is FWD and is based on the GP, Torrent is a piss-poor excuse for a poor man's BMW, and GTO is anonymous, not exactly what I am seeking out of my Pontiac.

Have you dreamed of owning a modern RWD sedan or convertible from Pontiac? How about it starting right around low 20's and not going much higher than 30k for a sweet engined, lightweight convertible even. Yes the current GTO is all these things, but it's also hanging on the balance.

GTO. About to die. What to do?

Camaro creates some interesting possiblities. It's business case is all but settled. Go read any forum, import, domestic, Ford, Chevy, universal, the BUZZ is Camaro. GM has a lot of buyers lined up on the forums. Just imagine. How the public will react. A Chevy sedan is coming later to strenthen the business case, but let's not sway off topic.

The story here is the new G6 has been delayed. Plans for it to be introduced on Epsilon have been canceled, since EP II will be out by then. GTO hangs on the balance. Pontiac and Lutz are struggling to make a business case for it. GTO needs to be piggybacked on another car's platform that already has the volume covered in order to support the limited volume of the GTO. Enter Camaro.

What poetic justice. Camaro RWD platform breathes new life into a new division. Keep in mind Chrysler is now selling LX cars at a total annualized rate of 270k units. That is a higher price, with not good interior quality or incredible style depending on your taste, and they're Chryslers. Depending upon how you look at that last one, Pontiac is not better off.

GM, with its abundance of brands, is in the unique position of going after niche segments that no one is at yet.

Let's discuss for a moment the Epsilon cars that will be available at that time: Aura, Malibu, Buick Epsilon, 9-3, and 9-5. Am I forgetting any? There will be plenty of FWD choices for those who can't handle the snow with modern tech and RWD. Let me have my RWD. Let GM offer choice. Let there be something DIFFERENT. And then maybe GM will begin to change minds, and really change Pontiac into a viable brand with some real cachet.

Let's be honest: Pontiac is as rental as Chevy, and with a history of offensive styling. That's a pretty bad combination. Aside from the GTO and Solstice, there's just not much there.

Please, let's change GM for the better. Ever dream of that mysterious, dark, and cool Firebird in black? Want to own a modern equivalent of it?

What if the new G6 were called Catalina or Tempest and had modern interpretations of the styling cues on that famous Firebird. What an awesome car that would be. What about a RWD Pontiac with handling equivalent to the last BMW 3-series, for around 24k, with a great engine, and with nice features, and of course classic Pontiac aggressive styling. What a novel idea, something cool.

The following are some quotes from thegriffon, valuable information, I think. Please feel free to chime in, whether you disagree with my obviously slanted opinion, whether you want to repeat verbatim what you posted in the other thread, let's get the votes and this thread going!

Let me make this clear, this is not a rumor, nor is it speculation (well, maybe just a tiny bit), it is a suggestion to GM. If it makes sense to you, and you like these product suggestions then you may want to lobby GM, directly and through your local Pontiac dealer.

Timing for the next major overhaul of the G6 puts it beyond the introduction of Epsilon II, and the current program may be cancelled to ensure strict adherence to the new Global platform. At the same time volume for the V8 GTO has not been high, and the new Holden coupe may diverge from NA requirements. What to do?

As the G6 is currently built in a seperate plant to other NA Epsilon models (Malibu and Aura), I suggest merging the GTO and G6 sedan and coupe and switching both to a rwd platform shared with the Camaro (seperate to the much larger Global RWD platform). All three could be built in the G6s current Orion assembly plant fr maximum capacity utilisation and flexibility between the three models. The GTO would effectivly become the HO V8 version of the G6 coupe. Already both are a similar size, and the GTO would nicely cap off the coupe lineup, and make a cabrio version an easy addition to the GTO. High commonality with the G6 would support the limited sales of the GTO, while sharing the architecture with the Camaro would improve the business case for that new architecture (smaller than the new big sedans' Global Rwd–ex-Zeta).

[post="54544"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The GTO would effectivly become the HO V8 version of the G6 coupe with strategic styling changes to seperate it from it's cheaper V6 sibling. Already both are a similar size and the GTO would nicely cap off the coupe lineup. High commonality with the G6 would support the limited sales of the GTO, and make a cabrio version an easy addition, while sharing the architecture with the Camaro would improve the business case for that new architecture (smaller than the new big sedans' Global Rwd–ex-Zeta).

[post="54544"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Both Saturn and Chevrolet will have midsize fwd cars, and Buick the V6/V8 LaCrosse. Switching the G6 to "Zegma" improves the business case for the GTO variant (minor exterior changes and a HO V8) and Camaro and gives Pontiac a unique position in the market to distinguish it from Saturn and Chevrolet. Just imagine what would happen to the G6 with the kind of buzz generated by the 300 (and maybe they could call it the Tempest). They only have to sell 10,000 a month to outdo the G6, and with the GTO and cabrio that could easily be surpassed. Look at how many 300s Chrysler sells.

[post="54582"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Chrysler sells 8k 300s a month!

As has been mentione before GM will have plenty of fwd midsize sedans - the budget Malibu, sporty Aura and premium LaCrosse. Why not give Pontiac something unique with a rwd sedan and coupe to underpin the lower-volume GTO. No other company can do this in the US, but GM's breadth of brands enables them to offer something unique through Pontiac - an entire lineup of sporty rwd cars at an affordable price (Toyota with their five sales networks—Toyota, Toyopet, Corolla, Netz and Lexus—does something similar in Japan with the Brevis, Mark X and Crown etc.).

[post="56794"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[C.H.U.D.]

Switching the G6 to "Zegma" improves the business case for the GTO variant (minor exterior changes and a HO V8) and Camaro and gives Pontiac a unique position in the market to distinguish it from Saturn and Chevrolet. Didn't even have to type that myself heh.

[Brandon Lutz]

Make the G6 a wee bit bigger. Make it RWD and rename it the Tempest or keep it the G6. Then offer GTO trim with the LS2 and an option of an A6 or M6 Then even perhaps offer a Buick based off the same platform and give it a turboed V6, and RWD and have instant classic :) Or, make a new car for Pontiac. Keep the G6 the same. Have a new pontiac based off the "Zegma" platform, and give it a new name. Tempest sounds good to me B) Then offer the GTO package. Edited December 16, 2005 by Brandon Lutz

[CaddyXLR-V]

We need to get more votes. I doubt GM will take a poll with 10 votes seriously. But it does seem as everyone wants the G6 to be RWD. Who cares that it was only on 9 votes :P

[turbo200]

come on guys, 72 views and only 9 votes :( More votes please...

[Chazman]

come on guys, 72 views and only 9 votes :(

More votes please...

[post="59755"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's not a matter of how ever many of us vote, turbo. Pontiac wants a new GTO. It's all a matter of making a compelling business case for it. Maybe the Holden VZ paradigm, needs to be re-thought....or maybe not. Maybe a successful GTO needs to be a different configuration. This is all being panned out.

[Cory Wolfe]

You know... My choice is to put the G6 on "Zegma" with the GTO being a version of the coupe... but I totally disagree with you, even though I agree. Let's see...

[quote name='turbo200' date='Dec 16 2005, 06:08 AM']Are you a Pontiac fanatic at heart? Do you lust over the '69 Firebird like i do. That dramatic nose, the raising strong shoulders, all accuentated by a strong yet shapely rump. Ah, beautiful car.[/quote]
Yes, I am a Pontiac fanatic at heart. One of C&G's biggest. No, I don't really lust over a '69 Firebird. It's my least favorite styling for any Firebird and the generation that is the most similar to the Camaro. Other Pontiacs behold my lust.

[quote]Pontiac really could use a revival. A return to its performance roots and design roots are the necessary steps to give this brand a reason to exist, and a reason for people to lust after it. The "not enough" G6 just isn't this product, the GXP tries, but is FWD and is based on the GP, Torrent is a piss-poor excuse for a poor man's BMW, and GTO is anonymous, not exactly what I am seeking out of my Pontiac.[/quote]
I realize that the GP GXP isn't the greatest vehicle, but to put FWD and being based on the GP as its biggest downfalls... I mean, what about it being FWD is bad? Honestly? C&D said it was the most fun Pontiac sedan they've ever driven. Torque steer isn't a problem with it. So... that leaves weight distribution as the only problem with it being FWD. That is still something that can be fixed to be close to perfect as you can get with FWD. I'd say the W-Body is its biggest downfall. If it had a better FWD platform... I don't think anybody except FWD haters could possibly bitch.

[quote]Have you dreamed of owning a modern RWD sedan or convertible from Pontiac? How about it starting right around low 20's and not going much higher than 30k for a sweet engined, lightweight convertible even. Yes the current GTO is all these things, but it's also hanging on the balance.[/quote]
Lightweight is a stretch... I'd hardly call the GTO nor the current G6 that. Lightweight to me is below 3000lbs. Otherwise, it needs to go to the gym regardless of its engine size.

[quote]What poetic justice. Camaro RWD platform breathes new life into a new division. Keep in mind Chrysler is now selling LX cars at a total annualized rate of 270k units. That is a higher price, with not good interior quality or incredible style depending on your taste, and they're Chryslers. Depending upon how you look at that last one, Pontiac is not better off.[/quote]
Yes, but you forget to mention that the LH cars sold better.

[quote]Let's discuss for a moment the Epsilon cars that will be available at that time: Aura, Malibu, Buick Epsilon, 9-3, and 9-5. Am I forgetting any? There will be plenty of FWD choices for those who can't handle the snow with modern tech and RWD. Let me have my RWD. Let GM offer choice. Let there be something DIFFERENT. And then maybe GM will begin to change minds, and really change Pontiac into a viable brand with some real cachet.[/quote]
Well... if GM offered choice there'd be both a FWD and RWD midsizer for Pontiac. :P J/k

That and I always found Pontiac to be a viable brand, moreso in the late '80s and early '90s than today (so far). They were then the best at FWD performance. Turbo GP, turbo Sunbird, turbo GA, Quad4 GA, Quad4 HO GA, V8 Firebird/Trans am, Turbo T/A, Fiero Formula... Sounds awesome to me, regardless of drive wheels. Styling was there too, you couldn't get much better than Fieros, Firebirds, GPs, and GAs. Now all there is for styling is the Solstice.

[quote]Let's be honest: Pontiac is as rental as Chevy, and with a history of offensive styling. That's a pretty bad combination. Aside from the GTO and Solstice, there's just not much there.[/quote]
Please explain "offensive styling" to me. I want to be enlightened.

[quote]Please, let's change GM for the better. Ever dream of that mysterious, dark, and cool Firebird in black? Want to own a modern equivalent of it?[/quote]
Not really... a modern equivalent of an 84-88 Fiero? Yes. 64 GTO? Yes. 65 GTO? Yes. 66-67 GTO? Yes. 68-72 GTO? Yes. 82-92 Firebird? Yes. 93-02 Firebird? Yes. 65 Catalina? Yes. 73-75 Grand Am? Yes. 67-69 Firebird? ...No.

[quote]What if the new G6 were called Catalina or Tempest and had modern interpretations of the styling cues on that famous Firebird. What an awesome car that would be. What about a RWD Pontiac with handling equivalent to the last BMW 3-series, for around 24k, with a great engine, and with nice features, and of course classic Pontiac aggressive styling. What a novel idea, something cool.[/quote]Uhh... No. "Catalina" belongs in the past, Tempest is a possibility, but Grand Am deserves the name more than Anything. You can't bring up tainted either... *cough* Tempest... rebadged Corsica *cough*

Are you saying retro? Slight retro? Either way, No. Slight reminders of the past are okay by me, but not retro. Especially if based on that Firebird. If it must be retro, it should be based on a GTO, unless you plan to save the Firebird instead. Duh.

As those details... as long as the base price is below $20k, it sounds alright. That is... unless you meant classic Pontiac styling as in retro. That would be bad. Let's move into the future, not jump back to the past. Mmmkay? Aggressive Pontiac styling can be as modern as anything.

[prinzSD]

We need to get more votes. I doubt GM will take a poll with 10 votes seriously. But it does seem as everyone wants the G6 to be RWD. Who cares that it was only on 9 votes  :P

[post="59749"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree 100%. I chose the sperate RWD for the G^ and GTO, but now I see how sharing the same chasis and making the G6 a 4 door and the GTO a variant of the G6 with 2 doors shared with trhe "new" Camaro platform makes more sence from a financial and resource point of view.

[turbo200]

You know... My choice is to put the G6 on "Zegma" with the GTO being a version of the coupe... but I totally disagree with you, even though I agree. Let's see...

that's cool

Yes, I am a Pontiac fanatic at heart. One of C&G's biggest. No, I don't really lust over a '69 Firebird. It's my least favorite styling for any Firebird and the generation that is the most similar to the Camaro. Other Pontiacs behold my lust.

that's fine too. I happen to love the Firebird.

I realize that the GP GXP isn't the greatest vehicle, but to put FWD and being based on the GP as its biggest downfalls... I mean, what about it being FWD is bad? Honestly? C&D said it was the most fun Pontiac sedan they've ever driven. Torque steer isn't a problem with it. So... that leaves weight distribution as the only problem with it being FWD. That is still something that can be fixed to be close to perfect as you can get with FWD. I'd say the W-Body is its biggest downfall. If it had a better FWD platform... I don't think anybody except FWD haters could possibly bitch.

I said based on the GP referring to its W-body origins, poor use of exterior bulk, and overall modest interior accomodations. That it's FWD, well that's just personal opinion, not that FWD is a bad thing. And this car would be a lot better if the W-body weren't so ancient and the interior was richer; it's already very fun to drive.


Lightweight is a stretch... I'd hardly call the GTO nor the current G6 that. Lightweight to me is below 3000lbs. Otherwise, it needs to go to the gym regardless of its engine size.

Yes, but you forget to mention that the LH cars sold better.
Well... if GM offered choice there'd be both a FWD and RWD midsizer for Pontiac. :P J/k

LH cars average transaction price was much much lower than the current LX cars. Also LH had more models, and I'm not sure that your facts are right. 300 is selling as mcuh as all THREE Chrysler LH cars were selling at that time, and between the Charger and Magnum Dodge is selling 120k vehicles per year. I don't know what the Intrepid used to sell, but I'm pretty sure it's not much more than that, and the average transaction price for the Charger is nearly 30k! That's a lotta dough for a Dodge midsizer.

That and I always found Pontiac to be a viable brand, moreso in the late '80s and early '90s than today (so far). They were then the best at FWD performance. Turbo GP, turbo Sunbird, turbo GA, Quad4 GA, Quad4 HO GA, V8 Firebird/Trans am, Turbo T/A, Fiero Formula... Sounds awesome to me, regardless of drive wheels. Styling was there too, you couldn't get much better than Fieros, Firebirds, GPs, and GAs. Now all there is for styling is the Solstice.

Difference of opinion. I think the '80's and '90's were some of the worst years for all GM brands, with some exceptions, in particular the Fiero was a pretty cool little car. I WOULD NOT like to see an all FWD lineup. We already have it and look at how piss poor it is. This is a chance for Pontiac to become somehting out of the ordinary again, beyond what we're normally used to.

Please explain "offensive styling" to me. I want to be enlightened.

Aztek. ribbed cladding. need I say more? though chevy's styling has been nothing to crow about either. I honestly don't know which was/is worse off?

Not really... a modern equivalent of an 84-88 Fiero? Yes. 64 GTO? Yes. 65 GTO? Yes. 66-67 GTO? Yes. 68-72 GTO? Yes. 82-92 Firebird? Yes. 93-02 Firebird? Yes. 65 Catalina? Yes. 73-75 Grand Am? Yes. 67-69 Firebird? ...No.

Uhh... No. "Catalina" belongs in the past, Tempest is a possibility, but Grand Am deserves the name more than Anything. You can't bring up tainted either... *cough* Tempest... rebadged Corsica *cough* 

I won't say tainted. This is only my suggestion. It's up to GM whatever they want to call it. So you can call it something, I can call it something else. I think Grand Am is a little feminine sounding, maybe it's just the connotation I have with years of secretary's cars. So I guess I did say tainted now, huh? Sorry, just a matter of opinion. I think Catalina sounds coolest, if anything, though I'm sure there will be a number of objections to that name too.


Are you saying retro? Slight retro? Either way, No. Slight reminders of the past are okay by me, but not retro. Especially if based on that Firebird. If it must be retro, it should be based on a GTO, unless you plan to save the Firebird instead. Duh.

GTO will have GTO spec styling. Leave that out of this. I happen to love that Firebird. I said modern heritage, what I mean is exactly how the Camaro was done is beautiful. But I am not saying to use the Firebird only. Pontiac has a number of great past designs, and they have great current cues as well to draw off of. Pick at liberty, and draw something that has personality all around.

As those details... as long as the base price is below $20k, it sounds alright. That is... unless you meant classic Pontiac styling as in retro. That would be bad. Let's move into the future, not jump back to the past. Mmmkay? Aggressive Pontiac styling can be as modern as anything.

You're right. It can be futuristic and I'd have no problem at all. But I also think the Camaro looks futuristic. It's edgy and modern certainly. It also incorporates old cues, but it looks straight out of this and next decade. It looks awesome. Retro style can be done for the future. But if they choose to go a completely opposite route, I won't be mad, just as long as it's drawed interestingly and aggressively and with passion for details.

[post="59768"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[razoredge]

One can only imagine why my origional post was deleted ? Because I said it was stupid that the only G6 remain FWD option contained the phrase "who wants a RWD V6 ?". What the hell kind of poll is that ? It cant be serious. "who wants a RWD V6" has nothing to do with GTO/G6 Edited December 17, 2005 by razoredge

[ToniCipriani]

The option I want to vote for is gone. Keep the G6 FWD and GTO RWD. The TSX is FWD, nobody complained. Refine the G6 more, and it should prove to be a good performer. I really think there might be a problem if Pontiac went completely RWD too quick.

[ocnblu]

I think it's an excellent idea to combine the G6 and the GTO on a RWD platform. It's what I've been hoping for, and posting about, for months. Ya gotta spread the platform out to more cars to make the hottest versions possible. They can't stand alone for long.

Call the sedan and six cylinder coupe Tempest... forget about this J2000/6000/G6 crap. It doesn't work!

EDIT: also, this worldwide run to "hardtop convertibles" sucks... a good, lined canvas top can be almost as quiet as a hardtop... with so much less complexity. Edited December 17, 2005 by ocnblu

[Cory Wolfe]

[quote name='turbo200' date='Dec 16 2005, 05:30 PM']I said based on the GP referring to its W-body origins, poor use of exterior bulk, and overall modest interior accomodations. That it's FWD, well that's just personal opinion, not that FWD is a bad thing. And this car would be a lot better if the W-body weren't so ancient and the interior was richer; it's already very fun to drive.[/quote]
Okay, I understand.

[quote]LH cars average transaction price was much much lower than the current LX cars. Also LH had more models, and I'm not sure that your facts are right. 300 is selling as much as all THREE Chrysler LH cars were selling at that time, and between the Charger and Magnum Dodge is selling 120k vehicles per year. I don't know what the Intrepid used to sell, but I'm pretty sure it's not much more than that, and the average transaction price for the Charger is nearly 30k! That's a lotta dough for a Dodge midsizer.[/quote]
Well, I don't even know if my facts are right. :lol:

[quote]Difference of opinion. I think the '80's and '90's were some of the worst years for all GM brands, with some exceptions, in particular the Fiero was a pretty cool little car. I WOULD NOT like to see an all FWD lineup. We already have it and look at how piss poor it is. This is a chance for Pontiac to become somehting out of the ordinary again, beyond what we're normally used to.[/quote]
Well... you have to understand, this is me we're talking about. I only really care about performance and styling. In those ways, I feel those years were better for Pontiac than now. Like I said, lots of turbos (I love turbos) and lots of manual transmissions (much moreso than now... and... I love them, ofcourse). That and there was that mid-engined... :D

Also, I too, would not like to see an all FWD lineup. I never said that, just explained that Pontiac was the best at FWD performance at the time (in the US, that is; other countries got much more exciting vehicles as they seem to always do). If I had my way (which I don't), I would have every Pontiac be RWD. The thing is, the General won't let that happen so I always like to stick to reality and base my wants off of what's possible. You know... because I have nothing against FWD and stick up for it when people bash it.

[quote]Aztek. ribbed cladding. need I say more? though chevy's styling has been nothing to crow about either. I honestly don't know which was/is worse off?[/quote]
You cannot base your entire opinion of brand's styling off of a single vehicle and something minor like cladding which not all Pontiacs had and can be removed if one really hates it enough. I look past those and in that way, Pontiac's styling is and has always been the source of my love, my passion, my fanaticism for this brand.

[quote]I won't say tainted. This is only my suggestion. It's up to GM whatever they want to call it. So you can call it something, I can call it something else. I think Grand Am is a little feminine sounding, maybe it's just the connotation I have with years of secretary's cars. So I guess I did say tainted now, huh? Sorry, just a matter of opinion. I think Catalina sounds coolest, if anything, though I'm sure there will be a number of objections to that name too.[/quote]
*cough* rebadged Corsica *cough* Say wha...? Did you say tainted? Okay... thought so.

[quote]GTO will have GTO spec styling. Leave that out of this. I happen to love that Firebird. I said modern heritage, what I mean is exactly how the Camaro was done is beautiful. But I am not saying to use the Firebird only. Pontiac has a number of great past designs, and they have great current cues as well to draw off of. Pick at liberty, and draw something that has personality all around.[/quote]
Okay, even then, only a reincarnated Firebird should have a Firebird's "modern heritage".

[quote]You're right. It can be futuristic and I'd have no problem at all. But I also think the Camaro looks futuristic. It's edgy and modern certainly. It also incorporates old cues, but it looks straight out of this and next decade. It looks awesome. Retro style can be done for the future. But if they choose to go a completely opposite route, I won't be mad, just as long as it's drawed interestingly and aggressively and with passion for details.[/quote]
Exactly, but I wouldn't exactly call it retro. To me, retro is a copy, which it is not. It has what I said is fine. Something like that I would be fine with as well. Still, I would rather each decade stay modern for that certain decade. I have always felt that styling and design should move on with time and forget the past, but not eliminate it. Know what I mean? It's nothing against styling of the past, as you know... I'm infatuated with '80s and '90s styling.

BTW, sorry if I sounded bitter. That comment about Pontiac's styling... yeah, it bothered me and put me in a bad mood. :P Am I hard to talk to? Haha...

[-Camaro-]

Why save the GTO, when it's not being cut?

Detroit Free Press has confirmed that the current GTO will end with the 2006 model year and return completely redone as a 2008 model.

Here is the Link:

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/gto28e_20050728.htm

GM plans all-new Pontiac GTO
Sales of 400-hp coupe take off
July 28, 2005

BY MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

General Motors Corp. will stop building the Australian version of its Pontiac GTO performance coupe later this year, but the U.S. model will remain in production at least through the 2006 model year, and an all-new model is in the works, a Pontiac spokesman said.

After a slow start in 2004, U.S. sales of the 400-horsepower GTO have taken off this year. Pontiac sold 87% more GTOs in the first half of 2005 than for the same period last year.

The car is based on the Australian Monaro coupe, which went into production in 2001. GM's Australian unit, Holden, will drop the Monaro this fall to concentrate on getting a new model of its higher-selling Commodore rear-drive sedan into production. The new Commodore goes into production in mid-2006.

The Monaro and GTO are built in the same plant in Elizabeth, near Melbourne.

The next-generation GTO will come from a new global family of rear-wheel-drive cars, Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson said.

GM insiders say that car's appearance will be more eye-catching than the somewhat anonymous GTO. The new model is likely to go into production in 2008 and will probably be built in Australia.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The option I want to vote for is gone. Keep the G6 FWD and GTO RWD.

The TSX is FWD, nobody complained. Refine the G6 more, and it should prove to be a good performer.

I really think there might be a problem if Pontiac went completely RWD too quick.

[post="59854"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thats what the Aura is for

[Northstar]

That's an old article -Camaro-, the GTO has since been cut. If the G6 went RWD I think AWD would have to be a very low cost option. I don't think your mainstream sedan buyers (who buy the G6 now) are going to take too kindly to FWD but might be willing to pay a little extra for AWD. I'm talking $500 here, not $1200-2000 like many AWD systems.

[turbo200]

Thats what the Aura is for

[post="60872"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

exactly Caddy Xlr-V, aside from the Aura there will be at least 4 other cars on Epsilon: Lacrosse, Malibu, 9-3 and 9-5. All of these will be excellent choices, the Malibu will probably be the best looking mid-sze sedan this country has seen in decades. Aura will be everything the G6 is not.

Pontiac has the opportunity to attack a market segment you can bet the imports will someday soon. Pontiac also has the opportunity to save the GTO, make it RWD, and make the business case for the Camaro even more compelling. Give us our RWD CHOICE, and they will come. Edited December 19, 2005 by turbo200

[thegriffon]

Actually Turbo I meant post it on other forums to get a wider audience. The more people who see it the better. Would still like to know what fbodfather thinks of this idea (and no, I don't think the GTO is off, but this would certainly help the economics).

[razoredge]

I agree with griffin, as to how the GTO needs to share plant and basic chassis and some sheet metal with another model and platform. It does need to be RWD, but there are a few things Im unsure of. Whats going on with GP ? Are you suggesting Pontiac abandon FWD altogether ? This will loose them many customers here in the NE. Pontiacs market in these parts seems to be a car for the ladies that want something with sex appeal. I understand the idea of "there are alot of other FWD GM's" for people to choose from but Im not sure it works that way. While I perfer nitch cars myself there has already been much said about the Solstice and if it will ever pay for itself. I really need to hear about whats going on with the GP and the void left by Bonneville. I think there is some mistakes being made here, then theres the little thorn - saturin

[turbo200]

The Solstice cost less than a month of Pontiac advertising. It's a rolling billboard, that I believe, cost around a total of $250 mil to design to and engineer. Don't quote me on that, but I do know it really wasn't that expensive to make, though the unfortunate thing for now is that more RWD cars can't come off of it. As for Pontiac being RWD. I'm sure you see many 300's around New England? And Mercedes Benzes, Lexus, BMW, Cadillac. Well, all of those are RWD. And all of those are expensive. I would like to see more options in the RWD category for more affordable pricing. Can we agree to disagree on the snow issue? And that market Pontiac attracts in your market is exactly why Pontiac has gone wrong and needs extreme change in order to survive, and you've got it pegged perfectly. Look for Gran Prix/Boneville replacement to go RWD on this platform later on in the decade. There should be a SWB and LWB versions of Camaro platform, SWB is what I would want for G6 if it were to happen. Obviously, the LWB version is what is being planned for a Chevy large sedan and for a Pontiac large sedan [though none of this is confirmed, it is good speculation].

[turbo200]

Actually Turbo I meant post it on other forums to get a wider audience. The more people who see it the better. Would still like to know what fbodfather thinks of this idea (and no, I don't think the GTO is off, but this would certainly help the economics).

[post="60968"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ohh :D sorry, mimbo moment.

I will try to post it elsewhere.

[Northstar]

razor - some good points about RWD in NE, but wouldn't a low-cost AWD option solve that? If ladies buy Pontiacs for sex appeal, then why wouldn't they buy a sexy RWD G6? The Solstice is supposed to turn a profit eventually, but that doesn't really matter. If the G6 sold 120k without incentives then it would definetly turn a profit for GM.

[razoredge]

The Solstice cost less than a month of Pontiac advertising. It's a rolling billboard, that I believe, cost around a total of $250 mil to design to and engineer. Don't quote me on that, but I do know it really wasn't that expensive to make, though the unfortunate thing for now is that more RWD cars can't come off of it.

I agree with the publicity, I felt years ago your flagships get people in the showroom regardless of thier incomes.

As for Pontiac being RWD. I'm sure you see many 300's around New England? And Mercedes Benzes, Lexus, BMW, Cadillac. Well, all of those are RWD. And all of those are expensive. I would like to see more options in the RWD category for more affordable pricing. Can we agree to disagree on the snow issue? And that market Pontiac attracts in your market is exactly why Pontiac has gone wrong and needs extreme change in order to survive, and you've got it pegged perfectly.

Not really, the LH cars sold immeadiately but these new Chryslers are still slim as are the CTS & STS's and Benz. Lexus, BMW? There here and there, no real abundance but they surely are outselling the 300 & CTS and anything Benz, I really dont see alot of them. More Audi, VW, Camrys, Accords, Chevys, Pontiacs and Buicks and Fords.

No, I will never concede on the snow issue, I have far too much serious experience with mountains, snow and vehicals for over 30 years and we do not want the womenly out on the highways in the winter in RWD cars. In fact most will refuse to drive a RWD car. THat is a fact.

then this ? "And that market Pontiac attracts in your market is exactly why Pontiac has gone wrong and needs extreme change in order to survive" I dont know what to think of. Is is an insult to these people ? my area? Is it an opinion of yours that this is why "Pontiac has gone wrong" ? I mean there has been many opinion/reasons givin' as to why sales have declined. Ive yet to hear it was because woman drive them. Id rather think it was because they cut the line in half and started selling "trucks" Extreme change is expensive and using extreme change and survive in the same sentence with a company that spends more than it makes may not be applicable. Seems to me Oldsmobile did one of these extreme changes and failed. I think total abandonment of FWD at Pontiac would be a mistake. Unless the AWD that was mentioned. This may be a more pivotal factor in the future, if GM can get it done.

Look for Gran Prix/Boneville replacement to go RWD on this platform later on in the decade. There should be a SWB and LWB versions of Camaro platform, SWB is what I would want for G6 if it were to happen. Obviously, the LWB version is what is being planned for a Chevy large sedan and for a Pontiac large sedan [though none of this is confirmed, it is good speculation].

Ill make no comment on Chevy getting a large sedan.
Im also not sure on LWB/SWB ideas. Arent wheelbase/track ratios somewhat critical ? at least for optimum results ?

[post="60980"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Edited December 20, 2005 by razoredge

[CaddyXLR-V]

Avg price of the Charger is $29000. That alone makes it worth looking into a RWD G6. And if it can bring up transaction prices to that level, I dont think adding AWD would be that big of a problem. And if its shared with the GTO, it will be able to handle a V8, then we could have a RWD G6 sedan with a V8 also.

[Cory Wolfe]

As for Pontiac being RWD. I'm sure you see many 300's around New England? And Mercedes Benzes, Lexus, BMW, Cadillac. Well, all of those are RWD. And all of those are expensive. I would like to see more options in the RWD category for more affordable pricing. Can we agree to disagree on the snow issue? And that market Pontiac attracts in your market is exactly why Pontiac has gone wrong and needs extreme change in order to survive, and you've got it pegged perfectly.

[post="60980"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Okay, I have one serious question for you... have you ever been in New England or even the North East where I live? And... not in a big city, I might add. I take it that you haven't. Just here in the north east, specifically rural PA, the only RWD cars I ever see are trucks or SUVs. Even then, most are 4x4s. The rest only come out during the summer. Again, even then, I don't see many and they aren't expensive ones. Cheap FWDers are dominant around here (as well as 4x4s). While I like to comment how Brookville is in the middle of nowhere, a few major roads run through it (I80, R322...).

Anyways, I do agree with you, however. :D

Avg price of the Charger is $29000. That alone makes it worth looking into a RWD G6. And if it can bring up transaction prices to that level, I dont think adding AWD would be that big of a problem. And if its shared with the GTO, it will be able to handle a V8, then we could have a RWD G6 sedan with a V8 also.

[post="61154"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Transaction prices should never be that high... :blink: That's anything but desired. Also, G6 having a V8 would just ruin the exclusivity of the GTO. Leave that for a bigger Pontiac, hopefully the GP/BV replacement (if there is one... <_< ).

[thegriffon]

I agree the GTO should be the most exclusive version of the coupe, with a big hp advantage over the G6/Tempest, but why shouldn't regular versions of the sedan and coupe get a lesser V8? Something to bridge the gap between the V6 and the GTO engines, but that isn't worthy of the GTO itself.

[razoredge]

I believe G6/GTO is a sound idea. My only concern is abandoning the low-mid 20's FWD segment. If GP was placed there or remainded there thats fine but leaving it all together may loose sales, they could still come out better overall but some research nationally as well as Canada would give a better handle on the FWD/RWD preference. It certainly is only an issue in the snow belts. Currently the G6 is Pontiacs small FWD. If GP & Bonne were to merge as was once predicted this would be the larger car. So what sold better, the GA or the GP ? In which areas ? All this would have to be looked into. Its becoming increasingly clear that a AWD drivetrain needs to be brought into the picture. It will alleviate this problem, however costs could send customers over to Honda and VW or the king of AWD Subaru.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Anyways, I do agree with you, however. :D
Transaction prices should never be that high... :blink: That's anything but desired. Also, G6 having a V8 would just ruin the exclusivity of the GTO. Leave that for a bigger Pontiac, hopefully the GP/BV replacement (if there is one... <_< ).

[post="61174"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Would that make Ferrari and Porsche undesirable? Higher transaction prices are desirable because thats how GM makes money. GM needs cars with higher margins, like the SUVs and trucks, especially if the SUV market keeps declining.
And why cant we have a Tempest sedan and coupe with a 5.3L, while the GTO is coupe only and gets the 6.0L, or 6.2L?

[Chicagoland]

Re: Pontiac's 'performance roots' Since 1926, the first Pontiacs, they were 'a step up from Chevy'. It wasn't until the 57 Bonneville, and then 64 GTO that they were the 'sporty division'. From the 70's to now, they have changed 'images' often. Also, if the sales numbers were addd up over the years, the 'average' Pontiacs far outnumber the 'sporty ones'. Point is, that Pontiac is and always be the 'mid price line', not ALL performance cars. Still, GTO should continue, along with mainstream Pontiacs. Edited December 20, 2005 by Chicagoland

[CaddyXLR-V]

Re: Pontiac's 'performance roots'

Since 1926, the first Pontiacs, they were 'a step up from Chevy'. It wasn't until the 57 Bonneville, and then 64 GTO that they were the 'sporty division'. From the 70's to now, they have changed 'images' often.

Also, if the sales numbers were addd up over the years, the 'average' Pontiacs far outnumber the 'sporty ones'. Point is, that Pontiac is and always be the 'mid price line', not ALL performance cars.
Still, GTO should continue, along with mainstream Pontiacs.

[post="61498"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Then where do Buick, Saturn, and Saab go? That might have been fine in the 60s when GM had 55% marketshare, but now GM has 25%, and there are dozens of new brands in the US.

[thegriffon]

I think you need to elaborate further Caddy XLR-V. I think I know and agree with what you are saying, but it's not very clear.

[turbo200]

I'll go for it. Each division needs a set purpose; a clear and defined set of values to go after and announce thier distinction. Branding is one of the most important determinants of cars of the future, since there are so many brands competing for the same piece of the pie. Convincing the American public that you mean something, and that they are getting something in return for buying your car, beyond just a car or a driving experience, is crucial to the future cars. Mazda has convinced buyers they are a little sportier with style; Nissan has gone a similar route; Toyota has convinced buyers they are the perfect car for a carefree life, everyday; Honda has convinced buyers they offer high tech, sophistication, an environmentally concerned vehicle, with good inoffensive style, and that their cars will always be the best in what is offered; BMW has convinced buyers they are performance vehicles, have cachet, elitist, and you can come back to them and expect the same virtues to remain consistent; Benz is quickly becoming the luxury brand for the masses, that said, they are for people with discriminating tastes, those that want the best tech, and those that want to feel thier car is special; Lexus has imbued similar traits into thier cars as MB, again achieving a status symbol image, and chasing high levels of refinement; Volkswagen has established an image of being high content, slightly elitist cars, with high levels of taste, a conservative but not dispassionate design tone, and having a German engineered quality at a lower price; Dodge will quickly become the maker of aggressive vehicles and usurp the role of Pontiac. It's all about branding. Design and a car's characteristics will become increasingly important as cars reach that Hold Grail of design, where engines get maximum desired power, suspensions handle the way they should, and quality has reached an equilibrium of near perfection. Pontiac is in an extremely bad position thanks to years of unappealing cars that didn't always meet the standards of the competition. The design needs to change for Pontiac......but they've also been saddled with the out of date out of proportion W-body chassis and Pontiac's perrenial cues that have seemingly been worn out by the bad examples. In short, Pontiac of the future needs to look at the best of Pontiac of the past for inspiration. They need to seek a higher ground in the automotive landscape if they are to stay alive and viable. And I'm not talking BMW, I'm talking Mazda and Nissan and VW

[CaddyXLR-V]

I mean that GM has so many brands, with each being just mid level with a few more options, and that just wont cut it now with 25% marketshare. How many steps can GM have between Cadillac and Chevy? All the brands in the middle a being squeezed, and they need more than just being an uplevel Chevy to sell. GM needs to have cars that appeal to different people than a Chevy would, and not just based on name. I dont mean you like Pontiac so you would rather have a Pontiac Malibu than a Chevy Malibu. I mean for people that aren't attached to either name, for one to appeal to their tastes, and the other doesn't. I like Pontiac more, but I dont want the reason I like the car more to be because it says Pontiac. Chevy IS the average car brand now. Pontiac and Buick can not afford to be average cars, and they need to have clear identities, and appeal to specific buyers.

[turbo200]

I mean that GM  has so many brands, with each being just mid level with a few more options, and that just wont cut it now with 25% marketshare. How many steps can GM have between Cadillac and Chevy? All the brands in the middle a being squeezed, and they need more than just being an uplevel Chevy to sell. GM needs to have cars that appeal to different people than a Chevy would, and not just based on name. I dont mean you like Pontiac so you would rather have a Pontiac Malibu than a Chevy Malibu. I mean for people that aren't attached to either name, for one to appeal to their tastes, and the other doesn't. I like Pontiac more, but I dont want the reason I like the car more to be because it says Pontiac. Chevy IS the average car brand now. Pontiac and Buick can not afford to be average cars, and they need to have clear identities, and appeal to specific buyers.

[post="62029"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

what he said. I have to emphasize the fact that many here are attached to a name, including myself. I love Caddy, Corvette, Chevy, Pontiac, Saab, Buick....in that order. So we are loyal to that brand. Trying to think outside of that perspective, from the perspective of people who don't care for GM in particular, or cars in particular, they are not attached to the brand like we are. We HAVE to appeal to them to SURVIVE. This is where branding and appealing vehicles come into play. Branding a Pontiac as a more upscale vehicle and better performing vehicle than say, your average Honda, well that would be a damn HUGE revelation in the industry, and would cause a significant sales spike for them. But you can't just call a brand a spade. You have build up to that, by introducing cars that live up to that brand's purpose.

Hence the need for RWD cars. RWD RWD RWD...........hardcore performance in upper versions, more basic performance for those that don't seek hardcore. Great pricing all around, and of utmost importance high quality inside and out. Think modern!

[razoredge]

I agree 100% with the identity of branding. I gets tricky however with GM. I began talking about less competition within and more streamlined lineups back this time of year in 00 when they made the Olds announcement. I believe they have actually been gratuating toward this anyhow. My problem is I dont like where it has left Buick, 2 cars and they are extremely "mature" cars, conservative cars.

Somehow Cadillac has become the performance division, personal luxury division, as well as the ultra luxury division. Then now we are talking "big" full blown Chevys and sporty luxury Pontiacs and sporty luxury saturins. Everyone is putting Buick in the corner and forgetting about them. Chevys crowding the luxury end of Buick, Pontiac and saturin is crowding the exciting personal luxury side of Buick and Cadillac is now everything to everyone except compact/econos. I understand that is not what this thread is about, but you are talking, go Pontiac go and let Buick sit with the conservative styling & FWD's and family cars or retirement cars.. I could argue that Buicks place in life has always been the styling statement of personal luxury "sports" cars and classy luxury family sedans which they still are but without the styling statement. We still need to leave room at Buick for a bit of pizzaz. At the same time we need an economical car at Pontiac for the masses that live above sea level in the snow belt or those people will be buying Hondas too. Lets not forget where GMs market is. Sure conquest sales, sure lets keep that GTO and place it in with an established volumn car. It cant go with GP if Grand Prix name is staying but everything Pontiac can not go RWD and allsports. Great looking yes but it cant be a full line up of sports cars, screw all other division and screw the current FWD driveing Pontiac clientel. Is anyone aware of the following the FWD Grand Prix has ? Its not something to sneeze about, same with the Bonneville, there are some serious Pontiac fanatics out there and believe me they do not think their cars are lame, why should they ? They are not.

There needs to be compromise, I believe the results of this poll are reflective of this need for compromise. I say it all evolves around whats going to happen in the GP & Bonne segment. AND once again the affordable, reliable AWD card. Still the NEastern lower income working class is not going to want to be forced into an expensive AWD option on a RWD car when they have had plenty of affordable, worry free FWD cars to drive for decades, or they are going to head to the local Honda dealer. Actually they have been heading to the local Hyundia and Kia dealers, I dont think a RWD G6 and GTO is going to stop them ?

this is a really tuff call and I know it

[razoredge]

I do want to add "Think modern" Does this mean that anyone that doesnt agree is not modern ? Of course not, thinking modern has little to do with only one side of the current topic at hand.

[Camino LS6]

I can't quite bring myself to vote in this poll because the issues at hand are far too muddy. I have some very definite ideas about what should become of Pontiac in general and GTO specifically. Most of which are consistent with the premise outlined by Griffon. However, I will restrict myself to the problems I see with this notion for the balance of this post. Problem #1 : Names. The G6,G4,G8 nomenclature is entirely bankrupt and should be tossed. Problem #2: Camaro. Without specifics of what platform will underpin our favorite new Chevy, we don't have all the information we need to come up with a sensible plan for any Pontiacs related to the Camaro. Unless the Camaro platform is a shortened and modified version the same Zeta/Sigma2/Zegma architecture as other forthcoming RWD models a la the Holden model, I can't see GTO sharing its underpinings. I don't think that GTO and Camaro should be so close that they share wheelbases and overall shape and size. That route would lead to either a bad Camaro or a bad GTO. They should never be the twins that Camaro/Firebird were. Which brings me to the brutally honest part of this problem. I love the GTO and long ago faced the fact that we can't have both the GTO and a new Firebird. That said, if the two have to be very close in size and shape and wheelbase the Pontiac in question should be called Firebird not GTO. I don't want to see this happen- but it makes sense. I'd rather see the Camaro stand alone in wheelbase and sheetmetal and ride on a shorter version of the same RWD platform used for the GTO and other RWD cars. Problem#3: Timing: The G6 is still very early in its life cycle and the GTO needs to be ready very soon. So, what are we talking about here? Moving the G6 name to a GTO based sedan model? (see problem#1) Or are we just saying that a RWD sedan (call it Tempest or Lemans) needs to accompany a Camaro twin? (see problem#2) One point of agreement with this whole idea: I too, believe that Pontiac should move toward an all RWD/AWD lineup sooner rather than later with one exception. That exception would be the Vibe which could remain FWD with a healthy dose of performance and compact cool. Think Mini and you will see what I am thinking.

[turbo200]

Camino, I'll give some of my perspective on the issues you've posted about. 1. Names don't make a difference to me. I don't beleive it was me who said G4, G6, G8, but if I did, then i'll restate that it doesn't make any difference either way to me. This will ultimately have an effect on marketing, and the name should match the image of the car, I feel. So whatever comes out of design should get the appropriate name. And I agree with you alphanumerics won't do these Pontiacs justice. G6 should have Grand AM, it makes a nice replacement for that car, but can't live up to creating it's own new image in this crowded market. 2. Agreed on the issues of shape and size of both cars being too similar. GTO should stay GTO and Camaro should be Camaro. I can deal with G6 [ or whatever it's called] sharing a general profile with some distinctive fascias from the GTO. Since we have a Camaro without a platform, all we can do is speculate at this point. We do have a lot of information from Lutz and various insiders, and size is something that could probably change but not drastically. over at Cz28 someone would be able to give you an update on the latest Lutz-ings talking about size issues. 3. Pontiac, at this point, is fighting for its life. Being a shadow of its former self and more easily dispensible since being folded into the BPG channel, Pontiac needs a business case for whatever may come. That's why the idea for a GTO based off the G6 coupe came up in the first place, to create a feasible business case for these cars that are not anywhere near likely possiblities right now. Basically, there is no program for a future GTO right now, and we should be lucky to see one in the next few years. That's why I have no problem if GTO takes a hiatus. I know it's probably painful, but if Pontiac comes back once a resurgent GM is back in place, they will be in a much better place to make profit. And then there is the renewed importance of good design over at GM signified by Camaro, Aura, Enclave, Sky, Solstice, NG CTS, NG Malibu. All this means if we ever do get a GTO, expect it to be damn good. Hope this helps.

[turbo200]

To add to the platform possibilites for G6, the talk over at Fastlane Blogs has GM promising a new small platform for sedans and coupes. Perhaps a medium size version of this could lead to a RWD G6, Torana-like car. That would be perfect imo. Heck, the Torana would be perfect.