What does GM have to compete with Taurus SHO ?

[CaddyXLR-V]

that's reality though, and why people who don't get it, need to.

you can't buy the G8 because the wife wants an SUV etc. You can't get the RWD car because the wife wants front drive or AWD.

this is what GM has to deal with and there is no sense poo pooing the preferences of someone who actually has checkbook in hand and is spending the money to keep GM and companies like it afloat.

your average 30 or 40 something or 50 something woman doesn't care about the g8, or zeta, or an s class cadillac type car. women have more of a say in most car purchases than men, and that's GM has to make the stuff they do. As a whole, the market for things like a zeta, or an old style SRX are very tiny.

Yet you are more likely to see a woman driving a 3, 5, or 7 series than you are to see them driving a DTS.

[Robert Hall]

Yet you are more likely to see a woman driving a 3, 5, or 7 series than you are to see them driving a DTS.

Those are probably more likely independent, professional women who make their own car purchases (at least that's what the 3- and 5- series owners I've known tend to be (dated a couple, worked w/ several, have friends whose wives buy their own luxury cars)) rather than a housewife that gets hubby to buy her a minivan or CUV to haul around their offspring.

Some DTSes are probably driven by Mary Kay saleswomen or grandmas...

R

Edited August 24, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

Yet you are more likely to see a woman driving a 3, 5, or 7 series than you are to see them driving a DTS.

Bingo!

Chris

[CaddyXLR-V]

You can't get the RWD car because the wife wants front drive or AWD.

I thought 9 out of 10 people didn't know what wheels drive their car though?

[hyperv6]

that's reality though, and why people who don't get it, need to.

you can't buy the G8 because the wife wants an SUV etc. You can't get the RWD car because the wife wants front drive or AWD.

this is what GM has to deal with and there is no sense poo pooing the preferences of someone who actually has checkbook in hand and is spending the money to keep GM and companies like it afloat.

your average 30 or 40 something or 50 something woman doesn't care about the g8, or zeta, or an s class cadillac type car. women have more of a say in most car purchases than men, and that's GM has to make the stuff they do. As a whole, the market for things like a zeta, or an old style SRX are very tiny.

Half the market is female. I buy and drive the car I want and I pretty much guide but let the wife chose the type of car she wants. She has to live with it daily and feel comfortable.

Her last three cars have been a T bird, SSEI, GTP Comp G. She has like all of them. The key to here choices is Get up and go, Seeing out of, Heads up display and Climate Control. She has owned and driven RWD and FWD for years and could care less what wheels are driven. I got her to look at G8 and she thought it was nice and a great deal but like the CTS it was just another sedan.

She is in her 30's, in managment with a master degree. She has many of the same desires in vehicles as many of here co workers. Men and women for the most buy cars often for different reasons. A guy like to know what speed he can take a off ramp curve when a woman just knows she does not have to slow down.

THis is a perfect example of why I have said here in the past GM needs to make cars for everyone and not just the guys on C&G. The 4th gen F body was a perfect example of a Guys car. It was a Vette with a back seat at the time. a average woman hated the car. They could not see out, they hated no trunk, They hated it sat so low. It also showed up in their sales.

The new factor is economy. With so many people hurting now and pay raises coming less often for some if at all price will be even a bigger factor. Affordable and how much the monthly payment is will take a step up. Cars like the Fusion and Bu will be the first string for GM and Ford. The new Bu is the most imortant car coming for GM.

Is the Bu A C&G? For the most no. But our demo here is only a small part of the sales picture. If we have a few models like the Camaro and such the people who are out there buying the majority of the other cars have to have theirs too.

THe people with dollars in hand are the buyers GM needs and who cares what they like. Give them what they want.

My Mother in Law is a DTS driver. She thinks it makes here look like a high roller. Yes in her past she sold Mary Kay. Thank God the DTS is not pink. LOL.

Edited August 24, 2009 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

If we have a few models like the Camaro and such

Trouble is that there is no "and such".

[A Horse With No Name]

CTS perhaps? But yeah, GM's future will be in cars like the Malibu and LaCrosse.

Which is why I've given up hope of them ever perhaps building a small car I want to buy. Not all the way, I want to see if they come out with something cool through the Buick division in a few years.

But for performance guys it's gonna be pretty much Camaro or bust. Isn't the Cobalt SS/TC (and the HHR/SS) going to go away?

Chris

[regfootball]

Those are probably more likely independent, professional women who make their own car purchases (at least that's what the 3- and 5- series owners I've known tend to be (dated a couple, worked w/ several, have friends whose wives buy their own luxury cars)) rather than a housewife that gets hubby to buy her a minivan or CUV to haul around their offspring.

Some DTSes are probably driven by Mary Kay saleswomen or grandmas...

R

an excoworker....hot redhead, about 28 got rid of her klunker sunfire a couple years ago and got a three series. thing is she just shopped all the luxo brands until she found the car and color she wanted.

last winter she called me because she said her dad made her get winter tires for it. she had no clue about what drive wheels meant even though i said she should get the AWD 3 series. she ignored me. then she had trouble getting around and her dad made her get the extra tires.

she is a fashionista. she didnt get the 3 because of track pedigree. she got it because its automotive fashion accessory just like her handbag is a fashion accessory. that's why the professional women get them.

[turbo200]

she is a fashionista. she didnt get the 3 because of track pedigree. she got it because its automotive fashion accessory just like her handbag is a fashion accessory. that's why the professional women get them.

the 3 is a trendy and stylish car. its stance, good proportions, strong edgy lines and good surfacing as well as nice cosmetic touches like great wheels make it still very appealing after all the years.

[turbo200]

as to the general argument at hand, hyper is arguing competently that the market for an SHO model priced like the SHO doesn't exist. G8 GT was well liked within the press and generally by consumers, [for a 30k Pontiac], because it was well priced and represented a bargain for buyers looking for extra spice. that market is limited.

just as there were those looking at that car for performance, many probably also settled on G8 first because of looks and practicality, then a drive and subsequent budgetary revelations led to GT being the choice car. but an SHO at $38k will not sell.

the market shows there is little space for premium sedans from generic brands priced above $30k. in that price range, buyers will generally trade up to brands with more prestige, models with more premium design and features. models like G35, TL, CTS, ES350, yes the taurus has great quality and design presentation, but it's also a taurus. the 26k model will have a lot more reception. but there's a reason why few models are priced in the entry luxury sedan price range besides those from prestige mfgs. and few are successful. in a 17 mil/annual car market this model is more reasonable, but nowadays there's even more reason to see how this will be crowded out soon.

[hyperv6]

as to the general argument at hand, hyper is arguing competently that the market for an SHO model priced like the SHO doesn't exist. G8 GT was well liked within the press and generally by consumers, [for a 30k Pontiac], because it was well priced and represented a bargain for buyers looking for extra spice. that market is limited.

just as there were those looking at that car for performance, many probably also settled on G8 first because of looks and practicality, then a drive and subsequent budgetary revelations led to GT being the choice car. but an SHO at $38k will not sell.

the market shows there is little space for premium sedans from generic brands priced above $30k. in that price range, buyers will generally trade up to brands with more prestige, models with more premium design and features. models like G35, TL, CTS, ES350, yes the taurus has great quality and design presentation, but it's also a taurus. the 26k model will have a lot more reception. but there's a reason why few models are priced in the entry luxury sedan price range besides those from prestige mfgs. and few are successful. in a 17 mil/annual car market this model is more reasonable, but nowadays there's even more reason to see how this will be crowded out soon.

Bingo... Thank you for getting it.

Honda has Acura because few will pay $40K pluse for a Honda. Same for Toyoat and Lexus.

The SHO will sell and as long as the expected volume is low Ford will be ok. But the problem is in a very tight sedan market a general Ford has little rep or creed to sell at or over $40K. It is no reflection on how good or bad the car is. TO most non car people the Taurus has represented a affordable family sedan and not a 3 series competitior.

The G8 had a better performance image than the Taurus but yet GM worked like hell to keep the price at just under 30K for the V6 and just over for the GT. The GXP was never going to be a high volume car in any but they were even careful with it's price. GM learned on the last Bonnieville there is a limit to what people would pay for a Pontiac sedan.

Audi, BMW and Benz are all precieved as a premium car of those who have made it in life and enjoy the advantage by being able to charge for it.

It would be nice to see Chevy and Ford compete in this upper profitable level with their own name but there are limits to what people will buy.

Ford has to convince there car is not only a great car but one that will give the owners a better image as many cars in this price range. There are some good names in this class. Names that will get people's attention when you say what you just bought. Imagin going to work and telling the receptionist who grew up in the family Taurus you just bought the new Taurus vs telling here you just bought a BMW or Audi. Even a 1 series or A4 presents a better image even if they are small.

As for GM's future cars for the gear heads lets let them show us what they are going to have. GM is not in a place where they have to give great details on performance cars 5 years to keep the stock price up. Lets see what the Alpha and the like will bring.

The big heavy V8 is going to be expensive and fewer from every one unless it has some hybrid system to it. But a Turbo Di 4 or six can today provide the power we enjoy with most V8 engines today. If GM can make 300 HO from 2.0 liters I am sure a 3.6 will find even more power. As cars get lighter we not only pick up better 0-60 but better 60-0 and handling.

In todays market it is adapt or die. The goverment regs leave no room for anything else.

[Camino LS6]

Bleak.

[A Horse With No Name]

Ready to go find that vintage car yet Camino-cause that's the only place your gonna get what you want.

Good thing you don't ahve children, or you would be depressed when they drove home to see you in their Volts, Priuses, Diesel VW's, et al.

When gas hits $5.50 a gallon, that is all that will be left on the market. Trust me.

Chris

[Justin Bimmer]

Who cares? The SHO will sell like 1500 units.

[hyperv6]

Bleak.

Not saying that the cars you like are bad cars but if they were GM sold they would have been gone long ago. They have to sell what makes money and sells in volume. Large V8 coupes and sedans are just not what the market want in volume anymore. It is not GM's fault it is the maket.

Just like standard shift. If more people wanted them than the 6% that do we would see more.

The reason GM makes cars is to make money and that is what they are doing with the new car they have. I wish we had more fun cars too but they need to pay the bills.

[Camino LS6]

I'd settle for a better balance.

[67impss]

Not saying that the cars you like are bad cars but if they were GM sold they would have been gone long ago. They have to sell what makes money and sells in volume. Large V8 coupes and sedans are just not what the market want in volume anymore. It is not GM's fault it is the maket.

Just like standard shift. If more people wanted them than the 6% that do we would see more.

The reason GM makes cars is to make money and that is what they are doing with the new car they have. I wish we had more fun cars too but they need to pay the bills.

Hard for the public to decide if they want manual trans if none are made a catch 22. As they market fuel sippers the public will learn to row the boat an we'll gain converts to help with the cause(I pray)

[regfootball]

the 3 is a trendy and stylish car. its stance, good proportions, strong edgy lines and good surfacing as well as nice cosmetic touches like great wheels make it still very appealing after all the years.

yeah, a 40k subcompact. not much of a market in general for those types of cars. but, BMW does have a good share of that miniscule market.

[hyperv6]

Hard for the public to decide if they want manual trans if none are made a catch 22. As they market fuel sippers the public will learn to row the boat an we'll gain converts to help with the cause(I pray)

People in general do not want to shift. For the most part many just do not even know how or care to do it.

Lazy, can't dial the phone, text or what have you. The fact is most people can't drive anyway even with out a standard let alone drive with one.

Thew fact is we will see more 6,7,8 speed cars that will get as good or as near as good mileage. Standards will be for the cheapest of the cheap cars or sports models. There is not going to be any great return of the manual shift.

I saw the numbers a couple years ago and they predicted drops in production of them for the the future. They already have been at 6-7% and dropping.

Just look at the sports cars today When did you ever think you would see a Ferrari that did not have a gated shifter other than the odd rare automatic 400 the made? If companies like Ferrari are going semi auto how long will the clutch last pedal Last?

When I grew up we all wanted fast V8 cars, RWD and 4 speeds. Todays kids wand LCD screens and speakers. they could care less how fast it is anymore. The performance market is getting older in age. I see it every day at work and the events we work with and sponsor.

Edited August 26, 2009 by hyperv6

[deftonesfan867]

This...

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...rticleId=155526

[FAPTurbo]

When I grew up we all wanted fast V8 cars, RWD and 4 speeds. Todays kids wand LCD screens and speakers. they could care less how fast it is anymore.

This is generally the case. Most people my age like performance, but are perfectly happy with a Civic or Mazda3 because it has good economy, and has plenty of tech toys. Most of us are in gridlock and on city streets where neither rear wheel drive or power is of huge importance. It's just different priorities.

[hyperv6]

This...

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...rticleId=155526

I game for this.

I love this car.

This is the Image of a real Euro car GM could sell vs the fake sticker and blacked out trim crap they have tried to pass off as Euro styling for years. I still cring when I think how my Mom and Dad both has two new Eurosports in one year.

[turbo200]

This is generally the case. Most people my age like performance, but are perfectly happy with a Civic or Mazda3 because it has good economy, and has plenty of tech toys. Most of us are in gridlock and on city streets where neither rear wheel drive or power is of huge importance. It's just different priorities.

traffic is much increased over the years, and this is one definite reason buyers trend towards comfort and practicality, in a market like today's, practicality and price concerns are even greater. plus a lot of people like to schedule busy days in the cities, i think this largely influences mode of transport for many. in LA there are tons more hondas per capita than the midwest, and this is for the efficiency in particular, greater and more reputable than any other car company. one thing you can't disassociate from a perception of civic or accord four cylinder is gas economical, in an area densely congested and highly car-centric like LA.

Not saying that the cars you like are bad cars but if they were GM sold they would have been gone long ago. They have to sell what makes money and sells in volume. Large V8 coupes and sedans are just not what the market want in volume anymore. It is not GM's fault it is the maket.

Just like standard shift. If more people wanted them than the 6% that do we would see more.

The reason GM makes cars is to make money and that is what they are doing with the new car they have. I wish we had more fun cars too but they need to pay the bills.

I would say rwd sedans proved popular through the 300 and G8 to a lesser extent. sell a $31k GT sedan and you should find many buyers.

rwd should not go completely away, not in fullsize, for fullsize luxury car, or compact/mid for CTS and alpha cars. [throw in chevy or buick sedans to go with them to.]

Edited August 27, 2009 by turbo200

[hyperv6]

traffic is much increased over the years, and this is one definite reason buyers trend towards comfort and practicality, in a market like today's, practicality and price concerns are even greater. plus a lot of people like to schedule busy days in the cities, i think this largely influences mode of transport for many. in LA there are tons more hondas per capita than the midwest, and this is for the efficiency in particular, greater and more reputable than any other car company. one thing you can't disassociate from a perception of civic or accord four cylinder is gas economical, in an area densely congested and highly car-centric like LA.

I would say rwd sedans proved popular through the 300 and G8 to a lesser extent. sell a $31k GT sedan and you should find many buyers.

rwd should not go completely away, not in fullsize, for fullsize luxury car, or compact/mid for CTS and alpha cars. [throw in chevy or buick sedans to go with them to.]

RWD has its market and should be offered but one can not nor should expect it to be the dominate car. Average Joe public is just not that interested. I could see if offered in large and smaller sizes along with cheaper it could account for 1/4 of market.

But most people are content with FWD and in most smaller cars they will take the incease in interior room over performance.

[Jazzhead]

I love the SHO. It's the first car I've seen since 2005 that I'd even consider trading in my 300C for. A big sedan with big performance is one of those things that, once experienced, is hard to give up. (I have a Ford Focus for grocery getting.) I figure the new car I get in the next couple of years will be the last hurrah - the last time to get the car I really want instead of settling for the eco-compromise the government wants me to. I'll have the rest of my life to drive those things - but the era of classic size, comfort and performance has only another five years or so, tops.

Right now, the SHO would get the nod, with the performance variant of the LaCrosse and whatever Chrysler presents to replace the current 300C worthy of consideration. My C still sparkles in showroom-mint condition, so I'll save up for least another year or two. But ultimately I won't miss out - I want one one last example of Detroit's classic best in my stable, to thrill me when I'm not puttering around in my Rascal.

[Camino LS6]

All of which leads me to believe that it is the people that are the problem, not the cars themselves.

I won't be joining the sheep.

[SAmadei]

This is generally the case. Most people my age like performance, but are perfectly happy with a Civic or Mazda3 because it has good economy, and has plenty of tech toys. Most of us are in gridlock and on city streets where neither rear wheel drive or power is of huge importance. It's just different priorities.

traffic is much increased over the years, and this is one definite reason buyers trend towards comfort and practicality, in a market like today's, practicality and price concerns are even greater. plus a lot of people like to schedule busy days in the cities, i think this largely influences mode of transport for many. in LA there are tons more hondas per capita than the midwest, and this is for the efficiency in particular, greater and more reputable than any other car company. one thing you can't disassociate from a perception of civic or accord four cylinder is gas economical, in an area densely congested and highly car-centric like LA.

In gridlock and traffic, RWD and power ARE important if you want to squirt into a lane or have to avoid a pileup at 30 mph. Add in the crap state of many of our roads (maybe not in Cali), and a good RWD setup is more predictable.

If you're going to just sit in traffic and let fate take over while you play with your MP3 collection and Twitter your friends, then go take public transportation and leave the roads to the drivers.

All of which leads me to believe that it is the people that are the problem, not the cars themselves.

I won't be joining the sheep.

Amen!

[Blake Noble]

When I grew up we all wanted fast V8 cars, RWD and 4 speeds. Todays kids wand LCD screens and speakers. they could care less how fast it is anymore.

Now, don't be so quick to stereotype. I believe my purchases speak for themselves.

[hyperv6]

Now, don't be so quick to stereotype. I believe my purchases speak for themselves.

I make my living in the performance aftermarket.

Kids today can not afford the old cars, some show a interest in mostly in 80's and 90's Mustangs since they are cheap. As for the Import cars they took off strong for a while but now import performance parts sales are not what they used to be.

We already have killed our Import catalog and incoperated it into the regular lines we sell. Others have done the same as grow in this market has slowed.

Most of the buyers we got were wanting dress up items and only a few wanted go fast parts. Most did not have the ability to tune their own cars anyway nor afford to do it right in many cases.

No stero type here. I wish they would take a better interest as our customer base is getting older. We have a group now that pleads for us to take a kid to a car show. Why because the lack of interest in the young today.

I even see it in my sons grade school buddies. We were all about Hot Wheels and car toys gowing up but now the Hot Wheels collect dust as the Playstation gets a work out. The car games are mine.

Kids today are into more tech and electronics. My son would take a cell phone before a go cart.

We still have people who represent all groups but the numbers in those groups have changed.

[Drew Dowdell]

In gridlock and traffic, RWD and power ARE important if you want to squirt into a lane or have to avoid a pileup at 30 mph. Add in the crap state of many of our roads (maybe not in Cali), and a good RWD setup is more predictable.

Two words: Mini Cooper

[Drew Dowdell]

My son would take a cell phone before a go cart.

That's because he couldn't use the go cart anywhere without some HOA President calling the cops on him.

[Justin Bimmer]

In gridlock and traffic, RWD and power ARE important if you want to squirt into a lane or have to avoid a pileup at 30 mph.

Simply irrelevant.

[FAPTurbo]

If you're going to just sit in traffic and let fate take over while you play with your MP3 collection and Twitter your friends, then go take public transportation and leave the roads to the drivers.

You're right. I'll take my Zune with my tunes out of my truck (RWD, and less zippy than a Toyota Yaris by the way) and be sure to haul that fridge I installed yesterday in a tenant's suite onto the bus as well as my roof-repair tar can.

[Blake Noble]

I make my living in the performance aftermarket.

Pssst ... get someone to make more performance parts for 305s.

Kids today can not afford the old cars ...

Cutlass: $3,000 to buy, roughly about $3,200 to mildly restore.

Monte: $2,200 with about another $3,000 to mildly restore (after all is said and done).

I paid for the Cutlass working part-time and selling a few other things that I no longer needed (an ATV mainly). The Monte was paid with savings.

I know where quite a few pre-1972 cars are at, and for a cheap price. They do need some work, but nothing incredibly serious.

Old, cheap cars are out there for my generation to buy. You just have to really look for them.

Additionally, I have two friends that own classic cars. I have a friend with a '66 Mustang (that now has a fresh 302; it cost $4,500 and the body is in great shape) and another friend with a '71 Cutlass Supreme (came from the factory with the 455 Rocket; this cost $2,500 with some mild rust, which my friend repaired himself).

... some show a interest in mostly in 80's and 90's Mustangs since they are cheap. As for the Import cars they took off strong for a while but now import performance parts sales are not what they used to be.

We already have killed our Import catalog and incoperated it into the regular lines we sell. Others have done the same as grow in this market has slowed.

Import tuners were a fad. Just about everything my generation (as a collective) likes is a fad. I don't like to say it, but my generation is probably going to be the most shallow yet.

Most of the buyers we got were wanting dress up items and only a few wanted go fast parts. Most did not have the ability to tune their own cars anyway nor afford to do it right in many cases.

No surprise here.

No stero type here. I wish they would take a better interest as our customer base is getting older. We have a group now that pleads for us to take a kid to a car show. Why because the lack of interest in the young today.

I guess I'm the last of an endangered breed then.

I even see it in my sons grade school buddies. We were all about Hot Wheels and car toys gowing up but now the Hot Wheels collect dust as the Playstation gets a work out. The car games are mine.

Kids today are into more tech and electronics. My son would take a cell phone before a go cart.

We still have people who represent all groups but the numbers in those groups have changed.

I can only hope that, by some chance, it can change.

Edited August 27, 2009 by whiteknight

[Robert Hall]

The 20 somethings I know seem to by and large have practical appliances...the usual Priuses, Corollas, Civics, Accords, Camrys. The one guy I know that seems to be an enthusiast has an Infiniti G35 sedan w/ a manual.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[FAPTurbo]

The 20 somethings I know seem to by and large have cars that point a to point b appliances...Priuses, Corollas, Civics, Accords, Camrys. The one guy I know that seems to be an enthusiast has an Infiniti G35 sedan w/ a manual.

But to plenty of people our age, those vehicles are what we want, and what we need. Tire shredding's out in most cases, because in the city there isn't too much space to stretch the car's legs, and because the cars are easy to maintain, perform admirably and get you from point A to point B, which is the main point of driving the automobile. The fact that they don't need much work done on them is progress, and the less time we spend on them, the better. The majority of people my age don't want muscle cars is because they tend to consume large amounts of fuel, are generally worse than normal for the environment and are too costly to justify running in gridlock.

The era of drag racing and displacement is over, because most of us don't care. Something that is comfy, easy on gas, and has a great interior space where we spend our time with plenty of tech toys is the name of the game today.

[Intrepidation]

In gridlock and traffic, RWD and power ARE important if you want to squirt into a lane or have to avoid a pileup at 30 mph. Add in the crap state of many of our roads (maybe not in Cali), and a good RWD setup is more predictable.

If you're going to just sit in traffic and let fate take over while you play with your MP3 collection and Twitter your friends, then go take public transportation and leave the roads to the drivers.

Amen!

That has got to be one of the stupidest excuses why ZOMG RWD IS T3H AWEOMEZ AND FWD IS T3H GHEYZ I have ever heard.

You're changing lanes not going overtaking on the Nurburgring at 147 mph. Gridlock = not really moving. Believe it or not, you're not going to understeer changing lanes, even if you're going highway speeds. I mean really.

The ability to use common sense and good judgment (ie. a brain) is all you need to change a freakin' lane. Somehow I manage to miraculously do this in a FWD with 106 mighty horsepowers and I haven't caused an 7,000 car pileups yet.

[Robert Hall]

You're changing lanes not going overtaking on the Nurburgring at 147 mph. Gridlock = not really moving. Believe it or not, you're not going to understeer changing lanes, even if you're going highway speeds. I mean really.

And if that gridlock is on snow/slush/ice, FWD (or AWD) is advantageous, I've found.

[Justin Bimmer]

In gridlock and traffic, RWD and power ARE important if you want to squirt into a lane or have to avoid a pileup at 30 mph.

Simply irrelevant.

Now that I have thought about this some more, and I am not trying to single you out SAmadei, this is meant more towards a larger group of people who would AGREE with what you said:

I have driven many many many different types of vehicles. FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD, Buses, Class 8 Trucks, Gooseneck Trailers, motorcycles, London Double Deckers.

This "squirting" statement is ONLY true with a motorcycle being better than an automobile with any wheels pulling or pushing or any combination there of.

To avoid an accident, brakes are your best friend, preferably ABS.

I know people have this super man-love for RWD and they think Zeta is Jesus reincarnated as a car platform, but really guys?

Really?

Come ON

[Camino LS6]

Brakes?

Very,very, wrong.

[Intrepidation]

Indeed, who wants to stop if the car in front of you in GRIDLOCKED traffic is stopped? Or slow down if teh car in front of you is going slower? That's just stupid.

[Camino LS6]

Brakes actually lessen your control of the car, especially in a FWD.

[Justin Bimmer]

I avoid accidents EVERYDAY with brakes.

[Intrepidation]

Brakes actually lessen your control of the car, especially in a FWD.

That's it then, brakes are evil and should be removed from cars. Clearly you'd have much better time coming to a stop or slowing down if you give it gas, have 460 horsepower and of course, RWD.

Did you know FWD can't drive? Yeah I have never seen one on the road be able to stop or change lanes before.

[Camino LS6]

You guys just don't get it.

I'll let someone else explain it to you.

[Intrepidation]

Honestly, the posts today from some of you guys is just...words can't describe.

[Intrepidation]

You guys just don't get it.

I'll let someone else explain it to you.

I get it perfectly well Camino. believe it or not, when a car in front of you is going slower than you are, you need a way to slow down. Since cars aren't equipped with reverse thrusters we use brakes.

To change lanes you don't need a V24, RWD, a manual, and all that other happy crap. You use your brain, look for an opening and then go...as opposed to just being a d**k and flying out without seeing if anyone is next to you.

Changing lanes is not the same as going around a race track at high speed. You don't have to worry about understeer VS oversteer. RWD is not ZOMG better than FWD at changing lanes. I mean c'mon. Going around corners at speed? Sure that's valid argument. This isn't. I love RWD but not to the point where I'd come up with lame excuses and reasoning that defies logic like this.

[Intrepidation]

How about we get back on topic about what GM has that competes with the SHO and save the FWD bashing for the other hundred thousand threads that already exist and will no doubt exist in the future.

[Camino LS6]

Actually, you still don't get my point.

Let me put it this way: Spend a week conciously trying not to use your brakes and you will be a better driver at the end of the week.

[Intrepidation]

Yeah, I'll make sure I try not to use my brakes at the stoplights.

Again, let's make an attempt to get back on topic.