What does GM have to compete with Taurus SHO ?

[rkmdogs]

As I said on another blog, in my area I have seen 4 Ford ads in 2 days promoting their

Taurus SHO sedan.

What does GM have to offer against it? The Pontiac G8 is no more... and it was RWD.

(Which I prefer)

The new Buicks are out of the price range.

The Malibu and Impalas are a joke. All the SS's are dead....

Chrysler still has the Charger, as a sedan.

So I say again, what does the General offer as a performance SEDAN?

Don't say the Camaro, because in your wettest dream, that is not a sedan.

In order to stay in the market, you have to compete ---- apples to apples!

An old latin saying, QUO VADIS, GM ????????

[Robert Hall]

Well, the SHO is priced into CTS territory.

(I'm not saying the SHO competes with the CTS, but I can't see a Chevy SS (Malibu?) in that price range...possibly a LaCrosse performance variant instead?)

Edited August 22, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[pmusce]

Well, the SHO is priced into CTS territory.

Yes, the SHO is in CTS territory and I would take a CTS over it any day. Ford will have a hard time selling SHO it's price point.

[NEXTEL CUP]

IF GM wants to be competive in the market they should NOT compete with the TAURUS SHO. 1st the Taurus wieghts in at 4,000 pounds and is longer than a Malibu, Camry or Accord. 2nd it gets terrible gas milage. Since Ford has retired the Crown Vic I would argue that the Taurus is the replacement for the Crown Vic. A bloated over wieght older generation applealing lemon of a car.

Also as the previous posters pointed out the Cadillacs are at the same price point as the Taurus, wieght less get better gas milage and performance. Lets remeber what got he US automakers in trouble, it was making bloated overwight cars. Competeing with the Taurus is a battle that no one wins because that car market has disappeared.

Edited August 22, 2009 by NEXTEL CUP

[Intrepidation]

It is in CTS territory but it's also a look larger and more roomy than the CTS. I would think of it CTS priced but DTS sized...and well the DTS is ancient.

[smk4565]

GM can't compete in every market segment, they have to pick and choose their battles and try to win where they do compete. They shouldn't build a car like the SHO, just like I think they shouldn't bother with the Cadillac XTS, or most of GMC's lineup. I'd rather see them make a minivan, that is a large segment and they have no entry at all. Yet they make several full size SUVs that compete against each other.

The SHO is $38-43,000, so it is more expensive than a LaCrosse or Lucerne, but it does 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. For people that want full size and performance it is a good car, but that isn't a large market. Most people wanting a sporty car are going to go with a G37, 3-series, CTS, etc. If Ford put the SHO's powertrain on the Fusion and priced it around $30,000, they'd have a strong seller.

[The O.C.]

Yes, the SHO is in CTS territory and I would take a CTS over it any day. Ford will have a hard time selling SHO it's price point.

A loaded SHO barely touches a base, stripped out CTS. I'd say it is not priced in CTS territory at all.......

[Robert Hall]

A loaded SHO barely touches a base, stripped out CTS. I'd say it is not priced in CTS territory at all.......

The SHO is $38-43k or so...I'm sure some CTSes are in that price range. I didn't say they are competitors--many cars/trucks/SUVs are in that price range--, but that they are in overlapping price ranges, way above that of the Taurus' GM competition (Impala). The recent Impala SS wasn't in that price range...

Edited August 22, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Intrepidation]

A loaded Silverado LTZ is probably around that price range so they overlap too, clearly.

[regfootball]

Yes, the SHO is in CTS territory and I would take a CTS over it any day. Ford will have a hard time selling SHO it's price point.

incentives.....wait for them.....

BTW the new Taurus is a BEAST in the flesh. too big, too over the top inside. Of course, i like the 08/09. the 010 hulks over the 09.

but a twin turbo v6 can make up for that....

[regfootball]

IF GM wants to be competive in the market they should NOT compete with the TAURUS SHO. 1st the Taurus wieghts in at 4,000 pounds and is longer than a Malibu, Camry or Accord. 2nd it gets terrible gas milage. Since Ford has retired the Crown Vic I would argue that the Taurus is the replacement for the Crown Vic. A bloated over wieght older generation applealing lemon of a car.

Also as the previous posters pointed out the Cadillacs are at the same price point as the Taurus, wieght less get better gas milage and performance. Lets remeber what got he US automakers in trouble, it was making bloated overwight cars. Competeing with the Taurus is a battle that no one wins because that car market has disappeared.

sho gets like 33% better mpg than G8 GXP

[FAPTurbo]

sho gets like 33% better mpg than G8 GXP

I think it was Car and Driver that said they got 16mpg with the SHO. I'm pretty sure a G8 GT/GXP would get a similar rating, possibly better.

Plus, how many SHO's is Ford going to sell?

[Satty]

I think it was Car and Driver that said they got 16mpg with the SHO. I'm pretty sure a G8 GT/GXP would get a similar rating, possibly better.

Plus, how many SHO's is Ford going to sell?

How many G8s is Pontiac going to sell after the SHO hits showrooms?

[ShadowDog]

If there is a large enough market to capture, sure; however taking even half of the interested consumers at that price-point and niche model won't amount to much.

[Blake Noble]

How many G8s is Pontiac going to sell after the SHO hits showrooms?

Ouch, that smarts.

[FAPTurbo]

How many G8s is Pontiac going to sell after the SHO hits showrooms?

Depends how much more cash is on the G8's hood when the SHO hits the lots. I have a feeling the SHO will have less success than the G8 GT. GM realized that the majority of people don't have much of an appetite for large sedans with big engines, and Ford will likely learn the same.

Edited August 22, 2009 by TheCaptain

[Satty]

Ford is doing s decent job of advertising the Taurus so far,something GM hasn't done for any car pretty much ever. The problem is that people are either going to remember the '86-'96 midsizers or the '96-'07 fleet queens and not associate "Taurus" with "quality large sedan" which is what it is now.

[ocnblu]

GM has exactly NOTHING to compete with the big, bold, patriotic Ford Taurus SHO. Yes, it is giant, but Americans like big things. It is a fullsize car and unashamedly so. I love the new Taurus.

[A Horse With No Name]

I like the car but fear for what will happen to all performance cars when the price of fuel goes up.

But it is wayy cool. Personaly though, I would prefer a G8 on styling alone.

But I'm not going to drop 35K on a car that gets 17 MPG, so I am not part of their target market.

Chris

[67impss]

GM has exactly NOTHING to compete with the big, bold, patriotic Ford Taurus SHO. Yes, it is giant, but Americans like big things. It is a fullsize car and unashamedly so. I love the new Taurus.

+ 1 / I would rather be in a car than a truck & Ford understands that.

They are positioning themselves for the future when CAFE will kill manufacturers still pushing trucks, SUV's & CUV's.

[PurdueGuy]

Depends how much more cash is on the G8's hood when the SHO hits the lots. I have a feeling the SHO will have less success than the G8 GT. GM realized that the majority of people don't have much of an appetite for large sedans with big engines, and Ford will likely learn the same.

The whole point is that the G8's won't be available...

[Robert Hall]

I'm looking forward to seeing the new Taurus in person...looks great in the pics. I like the size of it. The interior looks great from the pics.

[FloydHendershot]

Ford is doing s decent job of advertising the Taurus so far,something GM hasn't done for any car pretty much ever. The problem is that people are either going to remember the '86-'96 midsizers or the '96-'07 fleet queens and not associate "Taurus" with "quality large sedan" which is what it is now.

I do not think Ford would mind if people recall those '86-96 ers. In fact, I bet they count on it.

They are doing a very good job of putting it out there.

[Satty]

Now that I put more thought into it, I guess the people who bought the '86-'95 models are probably at a point in their lives where they dont want "just" a run-of-the-mill midsizer so the new Taurus, with its larger size and higher price point and premium options will probably appeal to them.

I still haven't seen one in person, which is odd since it seemed the Fusion and Mustang were on lots pretty quickly, but I imagine I'll be as impressed in person as I have been with the pics. And their advertising has been pretty good so far too, they're mentioning the car, what it has and what it can do and not BUY NOW $5000 OFF!!!!!!

[regfootball]

I think it was Car and Driver that said they got 16mpg with the SHO. I'm pretty sure a G8 GT/GXP would get a similar rating, possibly better.

Plus, how many SHO's is Ford going to sell?

how many pontiacs / GXP's will they sell in 2010?

lots of buff books have exceeded over 20 with their ecoboost vehicles in tests. bottom line is in standardized testing, the SHO gets about 33% better mpg and you can get up your inclined driveway with it in the winter.

[regfootball]

How many G8s is Pontiac going to sell after the SHO hits showrooms?

oops, beat me to it....lol

[regfootball]

If there is a large enough market to capture, sure; however taking even half of the interested consumers at that price-point and niche model won't amount to much.

ford whole point with the ecoboost and its AWD system is they are spreading its application over several products.

MKs

MKt

Flex

Taurus

new Explorer possibly

Edge, possibly

they could even do the Fusion.

Maybe Mustang?

F-150?

they can amortize the development over all these models. Even if say, they sell 5k a year in each of these models, thats like 40k a year, and they do it for 5 years, they have made 200k of them.

kind of like making the W body for 26 years, only not to the same beating a dead horse extent.

If you want to talk niche model, i think the G8 would qualify, 1.5 yrs in the showroom and bye bye. So niche they can't even put the window switches on the door.

[regfootball]

Ford is doing s decent job of advertising the Taurus so far,something GM hasn't done for any car pretty much ever. The problem is that people are either going to remember the '86-'96 midsizers or the '96-'07 fleet queens and not associate "Taurus" with "quality large sedan" which is what it is now.

the large newspaper in this metro area has taurus ads and sho ads plastered all over the front page of their web site lately.

i haven't seen any GM product save possibly the malibu that's been advertised to this extent on a local high traffic web site.

[ShadowDog]

ford whole point with the ecoboost and its AWD system is they are spreading its application over several products.

MKs

MKt

Flex

Taurus

new Explorer possibly

Edge, possibly

they could even do the Fusion.

Maybe Mustang?

F-150?

they can amortize the development over all these models. Even if say, they sell 5k a year in each of these models, thats like 40k a year, and they do it for 5 years, they have made 200k of them.

kind of like making the W body for 26 years, only not to the same beating a dead horse extent.

If you want to talk niche model, i think the G8 would qualify, 1.5 yrs in the showroom and bye bye. So niche they can't even put the window switches on the door.

You said it already there, GM did things the W-Body way. Ford is suddenly on the path not unlike Hyundai with regard to improving public perception. I'm wide awake too early in the morning so my thoughts may not all seem too easy to capture at the moment... but I'll try.

Making anything noteworthy from a single platform to compete against offerings from Ford, such as the SHO, simply has to be something more than flashy wheels, a few badges, seat embroidery and adding the words 'sport-tuned' to its suspension offering (thicker rollbar, yay!). You refer to technology-sharing over the spectrum of Ford's offerings. That makes sense. Building a car just to compete with one offering from Ford in a category where stealing 50% of all interested buyers means getting that one consumer of the total two is no business case. Sadly, people who seem to think GM should do something like this are people who cheer from the sidewalk just to see the eye-candy roll past. The idea that 'build it and they will come' is old-school thinking. What some people 'think' GM should build because it appeals to them doesn't mean it will appeal to a greater number of others. Why this simple fact of common sense goes unnoticed at the speed of slow, overhead of so many people is just bewildering.

Talk is cheap, fans are over-rated and good reviews don't pay the bills. The G8 is a fine example of that. So yeah, why doesn't GM have a car to compete with the likes of the SHO? I don't think it's stupidity or a lack of foresight on the part of GM. I think it is simply a different direction of their business. Toyota didn't get to where they are by satisfying the bold, brash and loud with cars made to look bold, brash and loud. Sure, we've seen them make a lot of boring cars; however, I guess a whole lot more people just don't mind as much.

[hyperv6]

THe Turus and SHO are both over prices for a Ford.

There are too many options out there on some very good cars with better images than a Taurus at that price.

That has always been Pontiac's problem is that once you get over $30K most Pontiacs were into or near the range of some really great cars. That is why my $32 K GTP was sold to me at $22K. No one in their right mind would pay over $30K for a GTP.

That is also the Chevy delema. THe Vette and Camaro are the only cars anyone would pay more than $30K for at a Chevy dealer.

The new Taurus will do more to sell Fussions than anything. It is priced where a Ford should be.

The Taurus would have been a better Mercury.

[ocnblu]

baloney

[Camino LS6]

Why bring the G8 into this?

Its numbers are not even indicative of its actual appeal (even though its sales were rising steadily in the face of impossible odds).

G8 production, and especially GXP production, had its throat cut by GM itself. Market performance was ignored and promotion didn't exist.

To judge the demand for such a car under those conditions is absurd.

[Camino LS6]

how many pontiacs / GXP's will they sell in 2010?

All of them.

[Intrepidation]

THe Turus and SHO are both over prices for a Ford.

There are too many options out there on some very good cars with better images than a Taurus at that price.

That has always been Pontiac's problem is that once you get over $30K most Pontiacs were into or near the range of some really great cars. That is why my $32 K GTP was sold to me at $22K. No one in their right mind would pay over $30K for a GTP.

That is also the Chevy delema. THe Vette and Camaro are the only cars anyone would pay more than $30K for at a Chevy dealer.

The new Taurus will do more to sell Fussions than anything. It is priced where a Ford should be.

The Taurus would have been a better Mercury.

The Taurus has a better interior than basically all of the cars it competes with in its size and price range. It also has more hi-tech features. In reviews it's likened to b bargain Audi, and when you think of it that way, the Taurus becomes a great deal.

The Taurus isn't a volume car anymore, it doesn't need to be #1 in sales, that's what the Fusion is for. The is a flagship sedan, like the Avalon is for Toyota.

[Satty]

Hasn't Ford said they plan to make 50,000 or so? If thats the case I think they'll be fine without a ton of incentives, it does start at $26k after all and thats still the heart of the market, price-wise.

[ShadowDog]

Why bring the G8 into this?

Its numbers are not even indicative of its actual appeal (even though its sales were rising steadily in the face of impossible odds).

Brought up, I imagine, because it is a great car that didn't see sales success. Understood, the potential may have been there and we'll never know for sure. Still, would it have succeeded and put its competitors outside looking in? I'm not so sure. By no means is that the fault of the car, but more like just bad timing (removing GMs decision to axe Pontiac from the equation and just thinking about today's economy). When things improve and GM has redeveloped its credibility in the marketplace, not to mention a much needed perception of quality and refinement, then GM (Chevy) can start looking at those higher price-point models.

The point is that I don't believe GM needs that model right now. I don't think they are alienating a market that isn't quite a big as it used to be, for the moment anyway.

[daves87rs]

THe Turus and SHO are both over prices for a Ford.

There are too many options out there on some very good cars with better images than a Taurus at that price.

That has always been Pontiac's problem is that once you get over $30K most Pontiacs were into or near the range of some really great cars. That is why my $32 K GTP was sold to me at $22K. No one in their right mind would pay over $30K for a GTP.

That is also the Chevy delema. THe Vette and Camaro are the only cars anyone would pay more than $30K for at a Chevy dealer.

The new Taurus will do more to sell Fussions than anything. It is priced where a Ford should be.

The Taurus would have been a better Mercury.

I think you would want to see one in person first, and then test drive. Like Satty said, wait for the price drop.

As for the mpgs, they are already working on that......

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't think Ford ever intended for the SHO to be a big seller. It's there for one purpose and one purpose only; to bring respect back to the Taurus badge. And really, how much "extra" could it have cost Ford to build? All the parts were on the shelf. Take a "Ford" body and put a "Lincoln" motor in it.... that formula has been around since... well... ever.

All they need is Conan O'Brian talking about his SHO and then Bill Ford walks out and presents him with a new one.

[hyperv6]

I think you would want to see one in person first, and then test drive. Like Satty said, wait for the price drop.

As for the mpgs, they are already working on that......

Been in one and I have to say it is a really nice car.

But with that being said there are much nicer cars in the price range or for just a few dollars more I can have something with a name with a little more status. I am sorry the only Ford name plate worth more than $35k being built is a Shelby. THe Flex and other small SUV's too are also over priced once they hit $40K. FOr that kind of money I would get a full size truck.

If Ford wants to sell a car over $40K it need to rebuild Mercury with new product and different product and this is a car that would suit that need. Once you climb over $50K it had better have a Lincoln name.

Mercury is Fords version Buick and Pontiac. Ford had no idea what to do with them or how to market them as something different than Ford. They have been nothing more than a rebadge at best.

I think time will show unless they discount these cars heavy they will not be a strong seller after the first year or so. The SHO will not be a common site. For that kind of money there are much better cars out there at that price or just a little more.

Hell I could get a VW CC with 4 motion for less than $39K and looks alone would get me to look even though I am not a big VW fan. The base model can be had for under $27K. Even a low end Benz can be had for SHO kind of money It may not be a CL but it sure as hell is not a $40K Ford.

THis is what killed the last SSEI. Nice car and fun to drive but no one wanted to pay the price near 40K for even the Bonneville GXP. A loaded TA or SLP Hawk were the the few Pontiacs they could get away with a high price and no discounting.

The G8 sold well at the discounted prices this year. They were a hell of a deal. But if they did not discounted them I wonder how well sales would have been for the non GXP cars. With only 1800 GXP there was no risk there of left over inventory.

I hope I am wrong for Ford but we already talked about this at work and all of us are car fans that like the new Taurus but few of us would even consider paying the price of the SHO. We all had other cars we would buy at that price range first. Now a loaded SHO at $29-34K we might talk.

Edited August 24, 2009 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

I don't think Ford ever intended for the SHO to be a big seller. It's there for one purpose and one purpose only; to bring respect back to the Taurus badge. And really, how much "extra" could it have cost Ford to build? All the parts were on the shelf. Take a "Ford" body and put a "Lincoln" motor in it.... that formula has been around since... well... ever.

All they need is Conan O'Brian talking about his SHO and then Bill Ford walks out and presents him with a new one.

THe SHO and the new Taurus will not be a big volume car. That is where it should have had a new name. It is a better car than the volume rental car name implys. Good old Bill Ford screwed up when the thought the 500 name was the reason for the 500's poor sales. The fact it was shaped like a modern Checker cab may have had more to do with that. Styling was it's failure not the name.

Now the styling is fixed but then they slap a cheap name on the car.

Time will tell if people will look past the name or price. The first year will not tell but the 2nd and 3rd year will.

[pow]

As I said on another blog, in my area I have seen 4 Ford ads in 2 days promoting their

Taurus SHO sedan.

What does GM have to offer against it? The Pontiac G8 is no more... and it was RWD.

(Which I prefer)

The new Buicks are out of the price range.

The Malibu and Impalas are a joke. All the SS's are dead....

Chrysler still has the Charger, as a sedan.

So I say again, what does the General offer as a performance SEDAN?

Don't say the Camaro, because in your wettest dream, that is not a sedan.

In order to stay in the market, you have to compete ---- apples to apples!

An old latin saying, QUO VADIS, GM ????????

This, the Regal GS:

[Drew Dowdell]

THe SHO and the new Taurus will not be a big volume car. That is where it should have had a new name. It is a better car than the volume rental car name implys. Good old Bill Ford screwed up when the thought the 500 name was the reason for the 500's poor sales. The fact it was shaped like a modern Checker cab may have had more to do with that. Styling was it's failure not the name.

Now the styling is fixed but then they slap a cheap name on the car.

Time will tell if people will look past the name or price. The first year will not tell but the 2nd and 3rd year will.

I think Ford is playing the "Comeback Kid" theme right now. If they do enough "This is not your father's Taurus" ads, they'll do fine. It's not going to sell like the old Taurus did, as someone already said, that's the Fusion's job. Still, at $26k, that's a lot of quality car. That price point is no mistake when you see that the base Accord V6 MSRPs at $27k (not counting the $4k in incentives Honda appears to have on the hood). Avalon and most V6 Camries are above $26k also.

[regfootball]

All of them.

with holden badges on them? in AU?

[regfootball]

The Taurus has a better interior than basically all of the cars it competes with in its size and price range. It also has more hi-tech features. In reviews it's likened to b bargain Audi, and when you think of it that way, the Taurus becomes a great deal.

The Taurus isn't a volume car anymore, it doesn't need to be #1 in sales, that's what the Fusion is for. The is a flagship sedan, like the Avalon is for Toyota.

funny thing is, myself, i don't like the interior color choices for the SHO, or the suede inserts, or the metal like dash accents. I wish if i had the chance to get a new SHO, that i could get a beige Limited interior instead.

wait, excuse my dreaming, i couldn't afford an 89 SHO right now, much less an 010

[regfootball]

Hasn't Ford said they plan to make 50,000 or so? If thats the case I think they'll be fine without a ton of incentives, it does start at $26k after all and thats still the heart of the market, price-wise.

they retained the SE version for fleets and loss leader ads if they need to fall back on that.

[regfootball]

Brought up, I imagine, because it is a great car that didn't see sales success. Understood, the potential may have been there and we'll never know for sure. Still, would it have succeeded and put its competitors outside looking in? I'm not so sure. By no means is that the fault of the car, but more like just bad timing (removing GMs decision to axe Pontiac from the equation and just thinking about today's economy). When things improve and GM has redeveloped its credibility in the marketplace, not to mention a much needed perception of quality and refinement, then GM (Chevy) can start looking at those higher price-point models.

The point is that I don't believe GM needs that model right now. I don't think they are alienating a market that isn't quite a big as it used to be, for the moment anyway.

A red G8 all clean and waxed drove by me on the freeway this evening. STUNNING car! but then i had to say, well aint that they $h!s you can't even buy that car anymore. Who sold those anyways?

[hyperv6]

I wonder how many G8's are left? At the end of July there were just over 5,000 left per the guys on the G8 site.

I just read the Parade magazine in the paper yesterday. It had a short story on car bargins. They has a story on a guy with a G8 GT. He had 4 dealers working against each other for a good price. He was able to get a GT for $27,000. THey claimed it was $7,000 off sticker and $5,000 off dealer invoice.

I have seen similar deals with the V6 cars advertised as low as $23,000. We looked at one and liked it but I needed to haul things and the wife wants a SUV [Enclave,Arcadia or Nox] next time to replace her sedan.

[Camino LS6]

[smk4565]

This, the Regal GS:

Well GM did have the official car for the supercharged family.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Sz7T8guB0

[regfootball]

that's reality though, and why people who don't get it, need to.

you can't buy the G8 because the wife wants an SUV etc. You can't get the RWD car because the wife wants front drive or AWD.

this is what GM has to deal with and there is no sense poo pooing the preferences of someone who actually has checkbook in hand and is spending the money to keep GM and companies like it afloat.

your average 30 or 40 something or 50 something woman doesn't care about the g8, or zeta, or an s class cadillac type car. women have more of a say in most car purchases than men, and that's GM has to make the stuff they do. As a whole, the market for things like a zeta, or an old style SRX are very tiny.