More Toyota Bashing

[RJB]

Prius Follies, Take Two The Wall Street Journal By Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. (Commentary) December 14, 2005 Since we're still on the subject of fuel mileage – or at least still responding to email after a column two weeks ago on the Toyota Prius – let's spill a few more gallons of petroleum-based ink. The Prius is a nifty gadget and comes with lots of extras. But Toyota markets the vehicle on its fuel efficiency, and fans tout its fuel efficiency. And our point was to debunk the idea that saving gasoline is a virtue independent of economics, such that it makes sense, say, to spend a buck to reduce gas use by 50 cents. Edmunds.com, the auto shopper site, guided us to Honda's Civic and Toyota's Corolla as conventional alternatives to the hybrid Prius. This was the source of our claim that the Prius retails for $9,500 more than comparable vehicles. In its own research, Edmunds concluded a Prius owner would have to drive 66,500 miles per year or gasoline would have to jump to $10 for the purchase to pay off. But don't take our word for it. Kazuo Okamoto, Toyota's research chief, recently told the Financial Times that, in terms of fuel efficiency, "the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified." Now, as an economic matter, overpaying for the privilege of saving gasoline is simply a subsidy to other gasoline consumers. Also as a regulatory matter: Thanks to the special genius of our corporate fuel economy rules, Prius buyers directly underwrite Toyota's ability to sell more SUVs and pickups in the U.S. market without paying the fines that Mercedes, BMW and Volvo long ago accepted as a cost of doing business in the U.S. But doesn't saving oil have benefits beyond the dollars saved – for instance, postponing the doom of civilization? No: If Prius owners consume less, there's less demand, prices will be lower and somebody else will step up to consume more than they would at the otherwise higher price. That's the price mechanism at work. Oil is a fantastically useful commodity. Humans can be relied upon to consume all the oil they'd be willing to consume at a given price. But wouldn't using less oil make us less dependent on Mideast imports? Just the opposite: In the nature of things, the cheapest oil is consumed first, and Mideast oil is the cheapest. Drive a Hummer if you want to reduce America's reliance on Arab oil. Indeed, if we could all just pull together and drive gasoline prices high enough, we'd be able to satisfy all our fuel needs next door from Canadian oil sands. Let it also be noted our primary political interest in the Middle East over the past 50 years has been Israel, which has no oil. Even Saddam would have been delighted to sell us all the oil we wanted if we had been prepared to acquiesce in his extracurricular depredations. Our attempt to reform Iraqi society is costing us many multiples of the real value of Iraqi oil exports to the world market. To wit, let's not underestimate the degree to which our overseas entanglements are despite our interest in oil, rather than because of it. Not that Toyota is to blame for the mystification of energy economics, which is a hardy perennial without which the nation's pundits could hardly make their gardens bloom on a semi-weekly schedule year after year. Take a bit of fluff from a group called 40mpg.org, a subsidiary of the Civil Society Institute. It recently put out a list of 89 vehicles made by major global automakers that rate 40 miles per gallon or better. These cars include the Ford Fiesta, Volkswagen Lupo and Toyota Yaris, none of which is available in the U.S. Only two vehicles sold in the U.S. get 50 mpg or better, compared to 39 such cars overseas. The group underlined its polemical point with a poll purporting to show that 88 percent of Americans believe "U.S. consumers should be able to get the best of the more fuel-efficient vehicles that already are available in other countries." Try not to be bowled over by the paradox: In the hyper-competitive U.S. car market, manufacturers are withholding fuel-efficient cars that Americans would be eager to buy. All this really proves is the pollster's facility for getting large majorities to affirm views at odds with their own behavior. Such fuel scrimpers sell in Europe because gas retails $5 a gallon, thanks to petrol taxes that feed the welfare state and keep the autobahns clear of poor people. Americans make an equally sensible decision, in dollars and cents, when they skip over fuel efficiency in favor of features more important to them, such as size, comfort and horsepower. Several Prius partisans emailed to say they purchased their cars not to save money but to save the earth, or at least make a statement about doing so. That's a perfectly good reason to buy a car (as is wanting to meet girls). However, we doubt their Hollywood coreligionists would be so keen on solidarity if it meant driving around town in a Ford Fiesta. In any case, fuel economy plays an ambiguous role in the fight against air pollution. Our considerable progress against the traditional pollutants has come by specifying allowable emissions per mile driven, not per gallon consumed. Meanwhile, CAFE rules raise the cost of a car while reducing the cost of operating it. Being rational even when they don't meant to be, consumers respond by getting more use of out their cars – driving 15,000 miles per year, up from 10,000 since the rules were adopted. (And automakers have met this demand by greatly improving vehicle reliability.) That leaves carbon dioxide, aka greenhouse gas, to support the increasingly rickety rationale for treating fuel efficiency as a socially desirable end in itself. Here, we can only suggest Prius fans might do the planet more good by convincing the American public of the merits of nuclear energy, the closest thing to a genuinely "green solution" to energy challenges in the real world.

[BrewSwillis]

Several Prius partisans emailed to say they purchased their cars not to save money but to save the earth, or at least make a statement about doing so. That's a perfectly good reason to buy a car (as is wanting to meet girls). However, we doubt their Hollywood coreligionists would be so keen on solidarity if it meant driving around town in a Ford Fiesta.

[post="58949"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:word:

[PurdueGuy]

Very good article. I do still look forward to more, cheaper hybrids, but there are excellent points made to show that it's not worth the premium, unless you feel it's worth it for the fuzzy (and seemingly unjustified) feeling.

[jd2b]

Very well written article, I would have focused a little of it on the potential problems with pollution surrounding battery packs, but otherwise great article.

[haypops]

The auts club has done studies at odds with the author's conclusion that lower fuel prices lead to more driving.

[sciguy_0504]

I still don't think many people, including hybrid drivers themselves, understand the non-monetary value of hybrids. It not all about saving money on gas. Sure Toyota is going to take advantage of people's misunderstandings about hybrids, it wants to sell cars, make money and get free PR. You would, too. The paragraph that tells me the author doesn't understand: "Just the opposite: In the nature of things, the cheapest oil is consumed first, and Mideast oil is the cheapest. Drive a Hummer if you want to reduce America's reliance on Arab oil. Indeed, if we could all just pull together and drive gasoline prices high enough, we'd be able to satisfy all our fuel needs next door from Canadian oil sands."

[BrewSwillis]

I still don't think many people, including hybrid drivers themselves, understand the non-monetary value of hybrids.  It not all about saving money on gas.  Sure Toyota is going to take advantage of people's misunderstandings about hybrids, it wants to sell cars, make money and get free PR.  You would, too.

The paragraph that tells me the author doesn't understand:

"Just the opposite: In the nature of things, the cheapest oil is consumed first, and Mideast oil is the cheapest. Drive a Hummer if you want to reduce America's reliance on Arab oil. Indeed, if we could all just pull together and drive gasoline prices high enough, we'd be able to satisfy all our fuel needs next door from Canadian oil sands."

[post="59169"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So taking "advantage of people's misunderstandings about hybrids" is just fine for one of the world's top companies to do?? And you support this?

That quote from the author is completely true. If we were to use outrageously more oil......ie. all drive Hummer H1's...... then oil prices on Middle Eastern oil would go up significantly due to demand. The reason we don't use Canada's "oil sands", is because it costs a great deal more to extract usable oil from, and is not competative with just pumping oil out of the ground....like in the Middle East. If Middle Eastern prices were to go up significantly, then Canada's oil sands would become a comparable alternative, and we (the US) would buy all of our expensive oil from them.

[sciguy_0504]

Brew, it's business. Companies, no matter how large or small, are going to and always exploit the misunderstandings people have about products and services available to them. Please spare me. If GM were doing it (and it is with their upcoming hybrids) you wouldn't have a problem. No, I don't have a problem with it. If people fail to educate themselves about the Prius (or any other product/service out there) it's on them. Sure that quote may be true but it shows his lack of understanding about why hybrids and other fuel efficient cars should be on our roads.

[regfootball]

i still am surprised that folks have the extra 10 grand to throw out the window to feel better about themselves or to 'make a statement'. it goes to show how hollow we as people are. we think buying something or throwing money at making some half hearted statement about who we are or what we support is a true show of support. Nah, showing support for environmental principles or showing support for oil policy or better gas mileage would be far better spent getting involved by particpating in promotion and political processes to convince others why improvement is needed. etc. You GIVE or your time and work, you don't just make a cheesy visual statement that because you drive a Prius that you are more righteous about the world than others. You could give that 10,000 bucks extra you spent to a research company to develop alternative fuels or pollution cleanup or reduction or something. We all want so desperately to stand out and be seen, don't we?

[haypops]

i still am surprised that folks have the extra 10 grand to throw out the window to feel better about themselves or to 'make a statement'.

[post="59251"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That is the authors estimate, and it is incorrect. The Prius is $20,000, the civic as low as $17000. The average cost of a new car is close to $25000. The hybrid is as much as $8000 less not more.

The idea of the hybrid is a joke. That doesn't mean we need to make stuff up about it.

The author is also incorrect in his assumption that $10/gal gasoline will mean less dependance on Mid eastern oil. Even if the number of gallons of mid east oil drops, the total amount of dollars available to the terrorist to murder us will go up.

Many of the authors assumptions are as silly as telling everyone to move to California because we are 95% self sufficient in oil production.

[sciguy_0504]

They're throwing that extra money at the Prius to buy time so companies can develop alternative fuels, etc. If we did what the author said we did (all drive Hummers) we'd be looking at $10 a gallon gas plus a shorter amount of time to find those alternative fuels. Plus, what about all the people who drive Escalades, Hummers, S55s, etc. to make a statement? I'm sure they could help out, too.

[haypops]

don't go and get your self in a tizzy :)

[sciguy_0504]

Going to that site will, lol.

[siegen]

How many soldiers per gallon are we getting in our SUV's?

Damn... :unsure:

If I didn't have to worry about crazy drivers and my own safety, I would happily ride a bike to work (it's only 5 miles).

[haypops]

Damn...  :unsure:

If I didn't have to worry about crazy drivers and my own safety, I would happily ride a bike to work (it's only 5 miles).

[post="59340"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I drove a Susuki motorcycle to work for almost a year but had to quit because of bad(make that very BAD) rice drivers from the local community college. I did end up in the middle of the street with my bike lying on top of me. I imagine a bycycle would be worse.

[sciguy_0504]

Elections will not be won with comments like that.

[regfootball]

They're throwing that extra money at the Prius to buy time so companies can develop alternative fuels, etc.  If we did what the author said we did (all drive Hummers) we'd be looking at $10 a gallon gas plus a shorter amount of time to find those alternative fuels.

Plus, what about all the people who drive Escalades, Hummers, S55s, etc. to make a statement?  I'm sure they could help out, too.

[post="59263"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the suv drivers at least are not being hypocrites

[BrewSwillis]

the suv drivers at least are not being hypocrites

[post="59514"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I saw a guy drving a jacked up F250, and he had a sticker on the back window that said:

"Sucks Gass
&
Hauls Ass"

:lol:

[prinzSD]

Well after advising my mother in law not to purchase a prius and supplying her with various article both pro and con about the Prius she went ahead and listened to her son who knows less about cars then I do. I suggested other alternatives to her but she was not listening. After about a month of owning the Prius I have heard through the grapevine( via my wife) that my mother in law now regrets having bought the Prius but she will not tell me so directly. She fell for all that PR and cool aid Toyota was passing off and is now stuck. I suppose she can turn aorund and sell it because used Prius are selling above MSRP in some areas and not lose any money. But in doing so that would mean indirectly that I was right and I do not think she wants to do that so she will keep it instead. What a shame.

[The O.C.]

OK! OK! So it doesn't get 60mpg..... Look.....the Prius is not the big bastard everyone is making it out to be...... You have to compare a Prius to a Camry. Check out the interior EPA figures....the Prius is more CAMRY-sized than it is Corolla-sized.....especially in luggage/trunk capacity. For someone looking for that size car, the Prius' realistic 40-45mpg fuel economy is still great....and much better than what you'll average in a Camry L4. If you look at it that way, the Prius CAN make much more sense. Some figures.......for a fully-loaded Prius (leather, nav, xenons, etc.) versus a fully-loaded Camry XLE 4cyl (leather, nav, etc.) MSRP - Prius = $29,195 - Camry = $26,555 EPA Passenger Volume - Camry = 101.8 - Prius = 96.2 - Corolla = 90.3 Trunk Volume - Camry = 16.7 - Prius = 16.1 - Corolla = 13.5 YES....the Prius costs more and you will probably get a much larger discount on the Camry.....but if you like the (albeit strange) style, the fuel economy is a nice touch. No it's not perfect.....but people can't keep trying to infer that Prius-buyers are all "stupid" or drinking the "hybrid kool-aid."

[Flybrian]

No it's not perfect.....but people can't keep trying to infer that Prius-buyers are all "stupid" or drinking the "hybrid kool-aid."

[post="59874"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Only the ones that pay several thousand over MSRP for the sole reason of fuel economy. Those people just aren't that bright.

Again, if you like the car, fine. There is a difference.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I'll stick with my 30mpg Impala and for shits and giggles, my 8 mpg Chevy pickup, yes, I said 8 mpg.....although that's because its 30 years old, has a 350 bored .040 over with a Holley 675cfm double pumper strapped to it with my lead foot flooring it on a regular basis and the power transferring through a performance modified Turbo-Hydramatic 350 tranny to a GM/Dana 10-bolt 3.73 gear-ratio rear end. Nice ain't it?

[The O.C.]

Only the ones that pay several thousand over MSRP for the sole reason of fuel economy. Those people just aren't that bright.

Again, if you like the car, fine. There is a difference.

[post="59914"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Fly, really....no....not even THOSE people. They pay thousands over MSRP because they want the car and it's in high demand.....whether it's for fuel economy, image, whatever.....it's supply and demand.

There's many people (out here at least) that pay thousands over for C6 ragtops......because demand is higher out here and supply is lower....people want the Corvette....so they pay....

Same thing with M5, etc.

Who's to say that their reasons for paying thousands over sticker for a C6 ragtop or an M5 are any more OR less important than that Prius buyer that spends thousands over...?

[pow]

Fly, really....no....not even THOSE people.  They pay thousands over MSRP because they want the car and it's in high demand.....whether it's for fuel economy, image, whatever.....it's supply and demand.

There's many people (out here at least) that pay thousands over for C6 ragtops......because demand is higher out here and supply is lower....people want the Corvette....so they pay....

Same thing with M5, etc.

Who's to say that their reasons for paying thousands over sticker for a C6 ragtop or an M5 are any more OR less important than that Prius buyer that spends thousands over...?

[post="60072"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In the same way people care about how much horsepower their car has, others care about how low the fuel consumption is.

If all car purchases were rational, we'd all be driving Accords.

[Flybrian]

Who's to say that their reasons for paying thousands over sticker for a C6 ragtop or an M5 are any more OR less important than that Prius buyer that spends thousands over...?

[post="60072"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Because cars like the C6, M5, etc are purchased over MSRP because they're desired. I'm sure there are people who bought a Prius fresh off the boat for thousands over because they desired the car.

Actually, if you read what I wrote, you would see that I said those that pay well over MSRP in order to save money on fuel. Any accumulated savings is outweighed before the first mile is put on the car because of the initial 'market adjustment.' Again, my statement went to those that paid too much to 'save' money via fuel savings in the long run - mathematically, won't happen.

I also said, "if you like the car, fine."

So...yeah...

As a note, a base a statement off an article in the local newspaper circa when the 2nd-gen Prius was hitting the lots. Some brainiac was quoted as saying something like, "...my husband thinks its ugly. So do I. But I'm buying it to save money on gas and I know I'll save alot even though I'm spending $3500 (or whatever) over sticker."

[prinzSD]

Because cars like the C6, M5, etc are purchased over MSRP because they're desired. I'm sure there are people who bought a Prius fresh off the boat for thousands over because they desired the car.

Actually, if you read what I wrote, you would see that I said those that pay well over MSRP in order to save money on fuel. Any accumulated savings is outweighed before the first mile is put on the car because of the initial 'market adjustment.' Again, my statement went to those that paid too much to 'save' money via fuel savings in the long run - mathematically, won't happen.

I also said, "if you like the car, fine."

So...yeah...

As a note, a base a statement off an article in the local newspaper circa when the 2nd-gen Prius was hitting the lots. Some brainiac was quoted as saying something like, "...my husband thinks its ugly. So do I. But I'm buying it to save money on gas and I know I'll save alot even though I'm spending $3500 (or whatever) over sticker."

[post="60109"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My mother in law was or is one of those "stupid" people. The original reason she wanted the Prius was for the so called better fuel ecomomy. When i showed her the figures she would get and how long it would take to recuperate the difference, all of sudden she said she wanted the Prius for the better environment it would help create, never mind that disposing batteries into a landfill or whatever they will do with them( still have not found any good articles that explain what will happen to all these dead batteries) does not make the invironment any better. In the end she bought the car for the wrong reasons and now regrets it. How many other Prius owners have bought into all this hype? At least when we buy an M5 or Vette we are not saying , hey look at me I am protecting the invironment or conserving fuel or whatever reason is hyped about the Prius, never mind what those idiot actors/actresses are saying about the Prius. I concede that there are people who bought the Prius because they actually like the car and for no other reason or statement. I will also concede that there are people who buy Vettes and M5 to say , hey look how much money I have, or look how small my "penis" is. :AH-HA_wink: :AH-HA_wink:

edit: spelling Edited December 17, 2005 by prinzSD

[Croc]

Still though, it uses less fossil fuels. I'm definitely open to driving a hybrid, possibly the Milan hybrid due in two years.

[haypops]

I listened to an interview with a big three auto designer. He is now retired and drives a Prius. He thought the design was exceptional.

[funkypunnk]

First,
THE PRIUS SUCKS AND IS
SUPER-BUTT-FUGLY!!!

Second, anyone notice on the link to the democratees that all of the models look like typical useless lost looking for some BS cause college students. I wish parents would stop paying for their college and then these kids might actually have to get a job!!!!

Third, the more Prius the better as they make the road safer for my Wife, son, daughter, and myself in our 13MPG Chevy Avalanche!

I Call Them Hybrid Toyota Crash Barriers!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P Edited December 18, 2005 by funkypunnk

[Croc]

Second, anyone notice on the link to the democratees that all of the models look like typical useless lost looking for some BS cause college students. I wish parents would stop paying for their college and then these kids might actually have to get a job!!!!

[post="60266"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The last thing we need on this site is another anti-education member. I sincerely hope you have a college fund for your son so he can have the best shot at a great future after high school.

[funkypunnk]

The last thing we need on this site is another anti-education member.  I sincerely hope you have a college fund for your son so he can have the best shot at a great future after high school.

[post="60272"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

PRO-Education, Big Time. BUT Kids are there to learn, not to find themselves and commit to the next half-baked cause that comes their way. I have a 15 yo daughter who I will help with College as well as my 15 month old son. The minute I find out they have joined the pro-dem or pro-rep anti-whatever demonstration club, I will cease funding their education. If they have time to hang out and try to get idiots elected from either party, and I am Republican and my guy won, then they have time to work their way through college without my help. I joined the military to fund my degree, and if that is what they have to do because they were manipulated into joining some stupid rallying cause then so be it.

You shouldn't think that just because a guy finds a problem with professional students who lose focus as to why they are at college, that he has a problem with college. I believe it is the key to easier success!!!!!!!!!!!

[regfootball]

I listened to an interview with a big three auto designer.  He is now retired and drives a Prius.  He thought the design was exceptional.

[post="60213"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

you misstated that. he said he was 'fired' not 'retired'.

[regfootball]

the prius trunk size may be the same as the camry in number, but that number is such because the prius has a very high butt and a hatchback. its not the same kind of space. interior wise also, the difference may only be a few cubic feet, but that's exactly the extra cubes that mean the difference between a car that is cramped v.s one that reaches the threshold of 'somewhat comfortable'. Edited December 18, 2005 by regfootball

[Snate]

I think alot of people buy the Prius for the image. Oh look we are being green by driving a Prius. Meanwhile people that are really concerned about the environment are doing more effective things like carpooling and not driving everywhere.

We are such an image conscious society...once the celebrities started showing up in Prius', everyone wanted one.

[The O.C.]

My mother in law was or is one of those "stupid" people. The original reason she wanted the Prius was for the so called better fuel ecomomy. When i showed her the figures she would get and how long it would take to recuperate the difference, all of sudden she said she wanted the Prius for the better environment it would help create, never mind that disposing batteries into a landfill or whatever they will do with them( still have not found any good articles that explain what will happen to all these dead batteries) does not make the invironment any better. In the end she bought the  car for the wrong reasons and now regrets it. How many other Prius owners have bought into all this hype? At least when we buy an M5 or Vette we are not saying , hey look at me I am protecting the invironment or conserving fuel or whatever reason is hyped about the Prius, never mind what those idiot actors/actresses are saying about the Prius. I concede that there are people who bought the Prius because they actually like the car and for no other reason or statement. I will also concede that there are people who buy Vettes and M5 to say , hey look how much money I have, or look how small my "penis" is. :AH-HA_wink:  :AH-HA_wink:

edit: spelling

[post="60158"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I bought my Corvette because of fuel economy....! :P

No.....really.....

How many other cars with anywhere near this performance can I average 20mpg driving in and around L.A.?

(by the way....I'm NOT rich....and my member? Well, I certainly don't need the 'Vette to compensate for THAT.....)

:lol:

[Polish_Kris]

Third, the more Prius the better as they make the road safer for my Wife, son, daughter, and myself in our 13MPG Chevy Avalanche!

I Call Them Hybrid Toyota Crash Barriers!!
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :P

[post="60266"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I wonder if you're going to be saying that once gas climbs to $2/litre. Enjoy the 13 mpg Avalance while you still can :rolleyes:

[prinzSD]

I think alot of people buy the Prius for the image.  Oh look we are being green by driving a Prius.  Meanwhile people that are really concerned about the environment are doing more effective things like carpooling and not driving everywhere.

We are such an image conscious society...once the celebrities started showing up in Prius', everyone wanted one.

[post="60351"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ant that is why I take Amtrak to work, sure it takes twice as long to get to work, but at least I am not clogging the roads with one car for one person. Mass transportation, car pooling, etc are better solutions.

[prinzSD]

I bought my Corvette because of fuel economy....! :P

No.....really.....

How many other cars with anywhere near this performance can I average 20mpg driving in and around L.A.?

(by the way....I'm NOT rich....and my member?  Well, I certainly don't need the 'Vette to compensate for THAT.....)

:lol:

[post="60398"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I know what you mean O.C. :)

[regfootball]

Ant that is why I take Amtrak to work, sure it takes twice as long to get to work, but at least I am not clogging the roads with one car for one person. Mass transportation, car pooling, etc are better solutions.

[post="60801"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yeah, because mass transit will pick me up and drop me off by my house.

[sciguy_0504]

I take the train every day to and from the local train station into Philadelphia and it's definately not all it's cracked up to be. Besides dealing with rude and obnoxious conductors, I have to deal with rude, obnoxious and dirty passengers who can't put their bags in the overhead luggage racks, blast the music on their headphones, scream into their cell phones, use the walkie-talkie feature on their cell phones, etc. Babies are whole other story. I think, for the most part, public transportation is highly overrated. It totally depends on where you live and what you have access to.

[Flybrian]

I take the train every day to and from the local train station into Philadelphia and it's definately not all it's cracked up to be.  Besides dealing with rude and obnoxious conductors, I have to deal with rude, obnoxious and dirty passengers who can't put their bags in the overhead luggage racks, blast the music on their headphones, scream into their cell phones, use the walkie-talkie feature on their cell phones, etc.  Babies are whole other story.  I think, for the most part, public transportation is highly overrated.  It totally depends on where you live and what you have access to.

[post="61136"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This is because public transportation in the majority of this country is a second-tier transit system, those of the classless, penniless, and a means to tide one over until they can afford a car. Its unfortunate.

Our county bus system doesn't have that level of seediness. Its actually pretty nice...as long as you don't really care where you go...or when you get there.

[sciguy_0504]

This is because public transportation in the majority of this country is a second-tier transit system, those of the classless, penniless, and a means to tide one over until they can afford a car. Its unfortunate.

Our county bus system doesn't have that level of seediness. Its actually pretty nice...as long as you don't really care where you go...or when you get there.

[post="61141"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I guess I was overreacting a bit but I understand what you're trying to say.

[tmp]

People here in LA are starting to buy them because the state decided that you can use the carpool lane in them while driving alone. Which, of course, defies all logic, since the damned thing gets better mileage in stop-and-go driving than it does at a steady 55.

This is because public transportation in the majority of this country is a second-tier transit system, those of the classless, penniless, and a means to tide one over until they can afford a car. Its unfortunate.

[post="60280"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That's pretty much the way it is in LA. There's no other way to put this, but I the only white person on my bus on the way home (there's a couple on the way in in the AM)and practically the only person on it west of Fairfax. Most people seem to look at public transportation here as somthing that other people should take (other meaning poor), so that they will be able to navigate Wilshire alone in their SUV. As a matter of fact, they may actually make the subway finally go to the beach, so those pesky busses won't be bugging people trying to get to Brentwood from the Miracle Mile. Edited December 20, 2005 by tmp

[RichW5]

I hated the train during the four years I had to travel to downtown Chicago for my job, but it was living by the train schedule that was bad. We had a regular group coming home every evening, that made every day a party. The conductors were our friends and the train cars were generally clean and comfortable. If someone was missing for a few days, we called to make sure they were OK. There was a couple of train tables at our wedding and one of the guys gave me "Yes Dear" lessons (before the wedding) out loud, to the delight of all the other passengers. Of course there were a few pople that turned around and left the car when we got a little roudy. All this is leading up to the fact that I'd rather live by the train schedule than own a Prius.

[prinzSD]

yeah, because mass transit will pick me up and drop me off by my house.

[post="61087"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well Reg, I still have to dive to the Amtrak Station which takes about a half hour and then take a shuttle from the train station to work. Yes it kind of sucks and you have to deal with yahoos and train conductors and all, but to me it is still better then driving. On the train I can get some work done, 12 hours of my work week is accomplished on the train, therefore I only work 3 days a week at the office and half a day at home. So for me, it is the best deal I have ever had when it comes to work schedules. If I were to drive I would get to work an hour early in the morning but would spend anywhere from 2.5 to 3 hours commuting at night. So it is worth having to put up with the hassles...well except when the train hits a pedistrian, not that is a different story like a 4 hour delay or the train can never make it to your destination because of the coroner investigation and the blood/body parts cleanup. Edited December 23, 2005 by prinzSD