A Cadillac ATS with Converj Flair

[dwightlooi]

Hybrid or not Converj is a beautiful car. Such a beautiful design is too good to waste on a niche vehicle with a small sales volume. Here's a concept of the an Alpha Platform vehicle adopting the Converj's lines.

Notable changes include:-

• The front wheel is moved forward.
• The chassis is stretched to make it a sedan.
• A second set of doors is inserted.

2012 Cadillac ATS

Front Engine, Rear Drive, Rear Mounted Transaxle, 4-seats, 3350 lbs, 48%(F) / 52% (R ) weight distribution.

3.0 liter V6 (LF2) with 300 hp @ 7500 rpm & 228 lb-ft @ 6000 rpm, 6-speed Hydramatic (6L50S) Automatic.

One all-inclusive trim, no-options, $32,000.

Edited August 16, 2009 by dwightlooi

[Blake Noble]

You have the right idea, it's just that some of the details are wrong.

[smk4565]

Needs a minimum of 300 hp and 300 lb-ft, and closer to $42,000 moderately equipped. If Cadillac can keep the ATS under 3550 pounds I'd be impressed. They actually better have a 40 mpg version as well, BMW is working on a 3-series hybrid (3 or 4 cylinder), to go along with the 36 mpg 335d.

[dwightlooi]

Needs a minimum of 300 hp and 300 lb-ft, and closer to $42,000 moderately equipped. If Cadillac can keep the ATS under 3550 pounds I'd be impressed. They actually better have a 40 mpg version as well, BMW is working on a 3-series hybrid (3 or 4 cylinder), to go along with the 36 mpg 335d.

I don't think that's true. Really. I drive a C55 right now, so I am no stranger to the desire for power and torque. However, if we are to limit ourselves to one engine for a luxury RWD compact we don't need to go overboard with on power and/or torque. People buy C240s and 328s. In fact, they buy more of these than C350s and 335s. 300 hp from a free revving, engine with a flat torque curve delivering 90% of its peak 228 lb-ft from 2000 rpm to 7500 rpm is no sham. For hard core enthusiasts, we can always defer them to a small block powered "ATS-V".

The Alpha can be smaller and lighter than the current 3-series or c-class, more like the previous generation 3 and C. If it is not under 3550 lbs it'll be an engineering failure. 3350 is actually quite a reasonable goal -- that is about how much the previous C240 weighed or 328 weighed empty, and neither is a paragon of extreme weight reduction. And, GM can produce light weight vehicles if they make it a priority -- the Corvette is very light for a 6.2 liter RWD car of its size (~3200 lbs).

Price wise it is not unreasonable to want to keep it at the level of an IS250 or TSX. Afterall, you don't really want to price it the same as a CTS. Features can be sacrificed as long as quality is kept high. In an entry level Caddy, I'll gladly trade a power sunshade, xenon lights, dual zone electronic climate control, multiple seat position memories, headlight washers, parking assist sensors, rain-sensing wipers, magnetologic shocks, etc for better switch gear feel, posh interior finish and better quality leather. I am also a believer in the Acura model of option pricing. There is basically a base version and a tech package -- no options, they build them one way to keep costs down by reducing logistic complexities. Cost can also come out of the platform by ditching advanced suspension configurations for simple struts front and back. Benchmark an E36 M3, improve on the interior materials and quality -- its not a bad car.

Edited August 16, 2009 by dwightlooi

[pow]

$32K is fine when you consider that's how much the 2008 CTS started at.

ATS ~ $30K

CTS ~ $40K

XTS ~ $50K

[smk4565]

A 335i starts at $41,000. ATS has to be $35-45,000. CTS has to move upmarket. The 3-series has 11 engine options in Europe. The ATS is going to need at least 2 gas and 1 diesel, plus a V-series engine (that isn't a pushrod). They should have a hybrid also, so that makes 5 engines needed.

Cadillac better aim very high, because there will be a new 3-series out by the time they get the ATS out.

[Lamar]

A 335i starts at $41,000. ATS has to be $35-45,000. CTS has to move upmarket. The 3-series has 11 engine options in Europe. The ATS is going to need at least 2 gas and 1 diesel, plus a V-series engine (that isn't a pushrod). They should have a hybrid also, so that makes 5 engines needed.

Cadillac better aim very high, because there will be a new 3-series out by the time they get the ATS out.

Let the ATS be the ATS. It appears you want this to be a BMW with straight lines and a wreath. That's just not going to happen.

[pow]

A 335i starts at $41,000. ATS has to be $35-45,000. CTS has to move upmarket. The 3-series has 11 engine options in Europe. The ATS is going to need at least 2 gas and 1 diesel, plus a V-series engine (that isn't a pushrod). They should have a hybrid also, so that makes 5 engines needed.

Cadillac better aim very high, because there will be a new 3-series out by the time they get the ATS out.

No one is going to pay $41K for a 178" Cadillac.

[ZL-1]

No one is going to pay $41K for a 178" Cadillac.

If that is the case, then New GM will be the continuation of the Old GM's saga, even with 3 just brands. I actually agree with smk on this one, although I feel it will take Cadillac a few years and at least 2 product cycles to to go straight against the Germans in pricing. The risk is choking Buick if Cadillac doesn't move upmarket price-wise.

[pow]

If that is the case, then New GM will be the continuation of the Old GM's saga, even with 3 just brands. I actually agree with smk on this one, although I feel it will take Cadillac a few years and at least 2 product cycles to to go straight against the Germans in pricing. The risk is choking Buick if Cadillac doesn't move upmarket price-wise.

I don't think it's about pricing, it's about size. Americans like bigger cars. There's nothing wrong with, say, a 3-series-quality or price car that's bigger than everybody else.

[smk4565]

I don't think it's about pricing, it's about size. Americans like bigger cars. There's nothing wrong with, say, a 3-series-quality or price car that's bigger than everybody else.

DTS sold 900 units last month, STS sold under 400, CTS sold 2900. The 3-series sold 8,000 cars. "Americans like bigger cars" is from the 1980s. Cadillac (and Lincoln) built big cars through the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, and look how fast their market share fell, while BMW, Mercedes and Lexus became the top 3 selling luxury brands.

The heart of the small luxury car market is about 180 inches long and $35-45k, that is where the ATS has to be. CTS has to go up in price, which means they will sell even less of them, but at some point they have to challenge the Germans on price. Cadillac has undercut them on price for 25+ years and gotten no where.

[ZL-1]

I don't think it's about pricing, it's about size. Americans like bigger cars. There's nothing wrong with, say, a 3-series-quality or price car that's bigger than everybody else.

It is about pricing, unless Buick is to be squashed between Cadillac and Chevrolet, which I personally don't want to see happen as I think the pairing of Buick and Opel can be successful on a global basis. The difficulty is that for Audi to get close to BMW and Mercedes prices... it took them decades... Cadillac and GM have a long and hard battle ahead of them.

Also, GM wants Cadillac to be its global luxury brand, so size matters and certainly not in a 'bigger-is-better' traditional American car buyer perspective.

[dwightlooi]

A 335i starts at $41,000. ATS has to be $35-45,000. CTS has to move upmarket. The 3-series has 11 engine options in Europe. The ATS is going to need at least 2 gas and 1 diesel, plus a V-series engine (that isn't a pushrod). They should have a hybrid also, so that makes 5 engines needed.

Cadillac better aim very high, because there will be a new 3-series out by the time they get the ATS out.

I happen to think that a smaller "Menu" is better. Acura had the TSX and the TL. They both had one engine. They both had has two trims -- with or without the Tech Package. There are no option boxes to check. IMHO, that is not a bad strategy. You keep the the logistics and inventory simple which frees up a few bucks to spend on quality.

A technologically competitive 3.0 V6 with 270~300hp is not a bad place to start. There is really no need to complicate the lineup and customer choices with a 4-cylinder or a bigger V6. If the customer is really about saving every last penny on gas they'll be at the Chevy dealership looking at a Cruze. If they are really tree huggers they'll be looking at the Converj. If they are true enthusiasts there's the ATS-V.

[Z-06]

I happen to think that a smaller "Menu" is better. Acura had the TSX and the TL. They both had one engine. They both had has two trims -- with or without the Tech Package. There are no option boxes to check. IMHO, that is not a bad strategy. You keep the the logistics and inventory simple which frees up a few bucks to spend on quality.

A technologically competitive 3.0 V6 with 270~300hp is not a bad place to start. There is really no need to complicate the lineup and customer choices with a 4-cylinder or a bigger V6. If the customer is really about saving every last penny on gas they'll be at the Chevy dealership looking at a Cruze. If they are really tree huggers they'll be looking at the Converj. If they are true enthusiasts there's the ATS-V.

I personally think that Buicks should be offered with Acura's strategy, not Cadillac. Because I do not see Buick selling in droves, it will create a niche between Chevy and Caddy and keep within it. Therefore fewer the options they are made with the more profit GM can garner from those vehicles. While Caddy should be a no hold bar for top of the line vehicles and those options are profit centers.

[smk4565]

I happen to think that a smaller "Menu" is better. Acura had the TSX and the TL. They both had one engine. They both had has two trims -- with or without the Tech Package. There are no option boxes to check. IMHO, that is not a bad strategy. You keep the the logistics and inventory simple which frees up a few bucks to spend on quality.

What is the leader, the 3-series or the TL? BMW sells 500,000 3-series a year worldwide, how many TLs get sold, maybe 50,000?

I like a few option packages rather than a bunch of stand alone options. Such as 2 equipment packages and a sport package.

The C-class has 8 engine options, Cadillac can't have one. To sell in Europe they need at least 1 diesel, probably 2. They should have a turbo 4 and the 3.6 V6. The 3.0 V6 makes too little torque, and gets worse mileage than the 3.6. Twin turbo V6 for the V-series would be nice. If they build the Converj they don't need an ATS hybrid.

[balthazar]

>>"BMW sells 500,000 3-series a year worldwide"<<

BMW heavily fleets the 3-series in europe, unlike Cadillac with the CTS in the U.S.

Cadillac also only leases in 5 states, and that just restarted. Actual private sales are closer than you think.

[smk4565]

>>"BMW sells 500,000 3-series a year worldwide"<<

BMW heavily fleets the 3-series in europe, unlike Cadillac with the CTS in the U.S.

Cadillac also only leases in 5 states, and that just restarted. Actual private sales are closer than you think.

Cadillac can't lease because their resale values are so bad. Cadillac sold 187,000 cars worldwide in 2008, while Mercedes and BMW sold over 1 million. Cadillac needs cars that can sell in Europe, not just the USA, that is why they can't compete. If they are only selling 50,000 CTS worldwide a year, it is hard to recoup development costs, where as BMW can spend tons on developing the 3-series because they can spread the cost over half a million units a year for 6 years.

But profit is more important than volume, and that is another problem for GM. BMW made a $416 million profit in 2008 (although they were down 90%). Daimler had a 1.4 billion Euro profit in 2008. BMW and Benz sell good volume, and make profit, they are better run than GM is.

[balthazar]

GM halted leasing during bankruptcy proceedings, <-- which undoubtedly played a major role in the sales decline for the Division IN ADDITION TO the lack of leasing.

BMW cannot spread the cost of R&D over the entire production run of the 3-series because many are sold as low- or no-profit fleet sales; they can only recoup R&D on profit sales.

And if profit is an example of how "well run" a company is (and it is)- BMW must be pretty horribly run to have profit bomb 90% in 1 year while still maintaining leasing & not having gone thru BK/ government loans/ relentless negative press coverage, right ? RIGHT??

[Lamar]

What is the leader, the 3-series or the TL? BMW sells 500,000 3-series a year worldwide, how many TLs get sold, maybe 50,000?

Unfair question. In how many more countries do they sell the 3 Series than the TL?