Americans and Small Cars

[HarleyEarl]

Backseat Driver The Small Car Conundrum Jerry Flint, 12.13.05, 12:12 AM Small cars make sense for obvious reasons, but they have never caught on big in the U.S. While such vehicles may gain ground in this market, I don't see them becoming a dominant force here--unless gasoline climbs past $5 a gallon. Detroit first flirted with small cars a half-century ago. As World War II ended, the big U.S. automakers believed there would be a tremendous demand for a new generation of small, light cars to put car-hungry Americans back on wheels. In 1944, then-young Henry Ford II said his company would build "a lower-priced car than had been offered the public since the day's of my grandfather's famous Model A." The rumors were that Ford was planning a $500 car. Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) set up a special light-car division, with plans to have the car ready for introduction by October 1947. General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) jumped in, too, planning a new plant in Cleveland for its new little car, and Chrysler promised that if the others moved, it would be in the small car ballgame, too. Well, it didn't happen. Detroit found out that it could take size out faster than it could take out cost, and that American buyers would be happy getting the big old pre-war models in those early post-war years. The little Ford and Chevy never made it to market here. Of course, "selling small" has always been a challenge in a country enamored with bigger houses, bigger refrigerators and even bigger food--such as the Big Mac and the Whopper. A mantra of bigger, taller, wider and heavier doesn't quite mesh with the concept of a small car. From time to time, small cars have been successful here. The original Volkswagen Beetle immediately comes to mind. Little vehicles from Renault, Fiat (nyse: FIA - news - people ), GM Opel, German Ford, French Simca and the U.S.-made Henry J (by the now-gone Kaiser car company) all caught the imagination of consumers for a short period of time. The first Toyotas (nyse: TM - news - people ) and Hondas (nyse: HMC - news - people ) sold here were small, but successive models increased in size. Little cars, such as the Beetle and the new Mini, that are successful here have had other things in their favor. They are small, but they are hot, like Lil' Kim. I think that it is harder to design an attractive small car than a larger-scale vehicle. Tiny cars often end up looking like a poor man's vehicle, which even turns off poor people. I remember a story about a Georgia farmer describing the tiny Henry J of the early 1950s: "Like an unsavory gal ah once knew. She was really pretty great--but ah wouldn't associate mahself in public with 'er." I wonder what that farmer would think about the new wave of small cars headed to this market. I'm not talking about cars such as the Chevy Cobalt, GM's shortest U.S.-made sedan, which is 180 inches long. To me, a true small car is anything shorter than 165 inches in length. U.S. Sales Of Small Cars Length (Inches) 11-Month 2005 Sales Chevrolet Aveo hatch/sedan 153/167 64,706 Toyota Scion xB 155 49,699 Toyota Scion xA 154 25,641 BMW Mini 144 38,384 VW New Beetle 161 33,139 Sources: Automotive News, Forbes In the first 11 months of this year, the tiniest cars racked up over 200,000 sales, which isn't much in an annual market of 17 million units. One size above these Lilliputs are vehicles from 165 inches to 169 inches in length. The VW Golf, the Suzuki Reno and Aerio SX, the Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, the Ford Focus hatchback and the Chrysler PT Cruiser all fall in this category. The PT is a big seller (about 124,000 in 11 months), but that exceeds the total sales of all the others. The two smallest segments will soon have new additions. Coming next spring is the Toyota Yaris, in three-door hatchback and four-door sedan. At just 150 inches in length, the Yaris hatchback is tiny, whereas the Yaris sedan, at 169 inches, is close in size to a contemporary U.S. subcompact. A thoroughly modern 106-horsepower, four-cylinder Toyota engine propels both cars. I would guess that Toyota would sell them for $13,000 to start. The yen is so cheap now that Toyota can lowball this car and make money. Like the four-door Yaris, the upcoming Nissan (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) Versa, due next summer, is also 169 inches long. This car intrigues me. It carries a new 120-hp aluminum engine, which is quite ample for a small car, and either a six-speed manual or CVT (continuously variable transmission) automatic. Nissan claims combined (city and highway) gas mileage of 38 miles per gallon, and it plans to build the Yaris in Mexico. The third small car headed our way is the Honda Fit, a four-door that is only 152 inches long. Honda's chief executive has even said that should the Fit be a hit, he would think of building it here. What is Detroit doing? General Motors is importing the Chevy Aveo from Korea and doing quite well with it. DaimlerChrysler (nyse: DCX - news - people ) has hinted it might be looking at an import, perhaps from China. Ford apparently has nothing in the works. All of them have imported small cars in the past, but none lasted. It probably doesn't make sense for them to build such cars here because they would need heavy volume--300,000 in a triple-shifted factory--to make them profitable. Even a sexy and higher-priced small car would be a tough sell. U.S. Mini sales ran only 40,000 this year, but BMW can make money because it builds 200,000 Minis and sells them around the world. It's hard to see production of tiny cars for this market alone succeeding. Detroit even has a problem making money on its compact models. Frankly, I'll bet on the Big Mac and the Whopper.

[balthazar]

Needless to say, ol Jer left a whole bunch of domestics out of his list of 'successful small cars'.

[razoredge]

I'd like to see more small personalized cars for that dayly work transport. Todays cars are just to heavy and getting heavier by the year. This is why we still are not seeing the fuel mileage of the early 80's VW's, the only compact Im fimilar with. With todays engine "technology" we should be able to have power and fuel economy in a small aerodynamic lightweight package. For some reason there seems to be some unwritten law that states small cars must be unattractive.

[CARBIZ]

In North AMerica that is true, but overseas it is another matter. There are a lot of cute cars in Europe and South AMerica put out by Fiat, Citroen and even GM over there. Maybe North AMeridans don't buy small cars because they are ugly and drive poorly. The Aveo is not a bad start - certainly far better than the old Metro, but could still be improved upon.

[Flybrian]

Oh...kay...?

[Hudson]

In North AMerica that is true, but overseas it is another matter.  There are a lot of cute cars in Europe and South AMerica put out by Fiat, Citroen and even GM over there. Maybe North AMeridans don't buy small cars because they are ugly and drive poorly.
  The Aveo is not a bad start - certainly far better than the old Metro, but could still be improved upon.

Or maybe Americans won't drive small cars because a) gas is relatively cheap and B) Americans aren't small people. Mexicans like smaller cars and Canadians don't seem to have a problem with them, but folks in the US tend to be a little larger (weight wise) and less frugal with their money.

The Metro wasn't a bad car in its day and sold relatively well initially...just like the Aveo.

[regfootball]

I'd like to see more small personalized cars for that dayly work transport. 

[post="57917"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

agreed. nice idea. the problem is we are stretched so thin we also need our car payments to cover a vehcile we can use to haul kids, junk, etc. and we can't keep the extra car for economy sake.

also, US is very interested in crash testing performance and the smallest cars just don't inspire trust to the buying public as far as 'can i survive a crash' from a semi truck for example

[regfootball]

i like the idea of reviving the chevette, but making it much larger than a cobalt. somewhere between a cobalt and maxx, with a nice four cylinder and also a frugal one. an attractive but simple interior and great mpg and low price. reasonably simple but good mechanicals and platform. Edited December 13, 2005 by regfootball

[Sixty8panther]

I drive a Maxima that is smaller than today's Altima... I'd love to own a Mini Cooper (1960s original) but for the most part I love my land barges.

This is a mid-size car right here: :P

[razoredge]

agreed. nice idea.  the problem is we are stretched so thin we also need our car payments to cover a vehcile we can use to haul kids, junk, etc. and we can't keep the extra car for economy sake.

also, US is very interested in crash testing performance and the smallest cars just don't inspire trust to the buying public as far as 'can i survive a crash' from a semi truck for example

[post="58054"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That is exactly how I felt when we went from the Rabbit into the Big 82 NYer followed by the 86 LeSabre. I used to look at that Rabbit and think, if something goes wrong I could loose both of them. My daughter was about 4 when we went to the large NYer. It was so nice not to be cramped up and worried about risk so much.

That was around 95 and gas vs my economy at that time was a non issue. Now with todays economy and the oil inflation we simply have way to much of our monthly income going out just for work transport. Its kinda crazy actually, combine the one payment we do have, with insurance (ever inflating) and monthly gasoline its close to one weeks pay each per month. Somehow it doesnt sound like its going to do anything but get worse for us common folk. There is no cost of living increase that can keep up with the actual cost of living increases. Not with the health care industry taking the raise right off the top, immeadialty.

Oh well, just a number.

[rkmdogs]

One other reason that small cars here would not be able to generate a large following is creature comforts. How many people buy a car, even for just commuting, without A/C, power windows, power steering, radio & other electronic devices, etc. It takes power to run these things........ and they don't come without another penalty, weight! Another big factor as a commuter, how far do you drive now? With the advent of suburbia, people now live further from their workplace than they did several decades ago. Personal preferences...... more people are driving now, who HATE to drive and any car trip is an imposition, because they are not good drivers; they have to have all the things that distract them from the fact that they are driving a car! Our geography. No where else, except maybe Africa are places spread out the way they are in America. Look at mileage records around the world. Our average drivers drive more miles than anywhere else in the world, because of our sprawl. That is not a forte' for small cars. There are other factors, some of which have already been mentioned, safety vs. vehicle size mix in traffic. And then the weight of the added safety components mandated by our sage government officials.............. :lol2:

[Dsuupr]

Let's face it, in America small car means poor person (with few exceptions). That's not going to change any time soon.

[CARBIZ]

I disagree. As long at the Big Two keep jamming "Americanized" versions of hot European vehicles down our throats, that will be true. Anybody who has been to Europe knows that almost anything that GM, Fiat and Citreon build over there are a lot of fun to drive, roomy inside and amazing on gas. I am 6'2" and had no trouble driving my friends' Chevy Astra in Brazil last year, or the Chevy Corsa I rented. The Corsa was a little rough and could have used power steering, but at $2.36 a LITRE for gasoline, the number of Grand Blazers (Tahoe) I saw down there were pretty limited. I know I am going to get shot down here, but it is criminal to be paying $2.50 a gallon gas when the rest of the world is paying double that. The U.S. should double the taxes on gasoline, pay off the national debt and buy back the treasury bills from Japan and China before they become the true masters over Washington. And Iraq may not be about oil, but I guarantee the next war will be.

[Sixty8panther]

....but folks in the US tend to be a little larger (weight wise) and less frugal with their money.

[post="57950"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm a pretty skinny kid and could easily fit into a CRX or a classic Mini Cooper, even though the S2000 made me feel super crapmped. I like my Datsun's tight proportions for driving fun factor... small cars can be a lot of fun.

That having been said, there's always a greater desire for me to drive a HUGE car. Something so damn big that it makes the "big" black sedans I saw the Communists driving around in as a kid seem like economy cars.

I thought my Fleetwood Brougham was the perfect size for hauling around me, Marcia, Sofia & I could still have most of my tools in the trunk at all times. :)

Last night when I took the Truck to Wendy's at like 11:30pm the roads were empty for some reason... I drove across the bridge into Lowell, lined up the Chevy hood ornament with the doulbe yellow and floored it. So much fun driving an obnoxiously huge truck like that and takign up 100% fo the road.

My eventual '59 Buick will take care of my appetite for longer, lower, wider Chrome-encrusted land yachts.

[Robert Hall]

The '84 diesel Escort I had in high school consistently got over 50 mpg on the highway and over 40 around town. It could seat four normal-sized teenagers or adults with no problem...but man, it was stripped down--vinyl seats, manual windows, am radio, but it did have A/C, a tach, and a 5-speed manual...and a whopping 52hp!!!! I don't think I'd want anything that small as a commuter car today, though.

[rkmdogs]

but at $2.36 a LITRE for gasoline, I know I am going to get shot down here, but it is criminal to be paying $2.50 a gallon gas when the rest of the world is paying double that.  The U.S. should double the taxes on gasoline, pay off the national debt and buy back the treasury bills from Japan and China before they become the true masters over Washington.
  And Iraq may not be about oil, but I guarantee the next war will be.

[post="93260"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Get off your soapbox and wake up!
If you want to quote world gas prices, lets include Venezuala and Saudi Arabia!
There, the prices are under a buck a gallon!

Yes it is criminal to be paying the prices you quote........ but the governments
are as much criminals for using the tax monies for other purposes!

[The O.C.]

Let's face it, in America small car means poor person (with few exceptions).  That's not going to change any time soon.

[post="93252"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If done RIGHT, small cars can be HUGE successes here.

As I've said before, my other half works at a large BMW/MINI store in Irvine and to this DAY, they are STILL getting at least window sticker for MINIs and in many cases, still getting $1-$2 grand OVER sticker for certain models. (MINIs aren't inexpensive cars either.)

This is a great barometer of the success of a car....when it can sell without incentives, at/close-to/or over window sticker, and the dealer makes a nice profit on each one they sell.

Remember that MINI N.A. is contrained on how many they can sell by how many they get allocated from the parent company. Our dealership gets a set allocation every year and the only way they can get additional inventory is to buy it from other dealers around the country (such as convertibles from the midwest and east coast during winter) and having them shipped here.

I don't expect the Fit, Versa, Aveo, and others to necessarily duplicate MINI's success, but if marketed right they can be GREAT products.

[Snate]

Not every american wants a big vehicle. I personally hate big cars...anything bigger than a midsize car. I'd never buy a truck or SUV.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Not every american wants a big vehicle.  I personally hate big cars...anything bigger than a midsize car.  I'd never buy a truck or SUV.

[post="93362"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:withstupid:
But I dont want sub-compact either. A small midsize would be the right size.

[Snate]

:withstupid:
But I dont want sub-compact either. A small midsize would be the right size.

[post="93416"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Exactly...and you have plenty of choice available. I don't want a subcompact either...doesn't mean some people do.

[PontiacTechNJ]

Or maybe Americans won't drive small cars because a) gas is relatively cheap and B) Americans aren't small people. Mexicans like smaller cars and Canadians don't seem to have a problem with them, but folks in the US tend to be a little larger (weight wise) and less frugal with their money.

The Metro wasn't a bad car in its day and sold relatively well initially...just like the Aveo.

[post="57950"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

maybe all the fat stored in american fatheads has paralyzed their brains

[Flybrian]

How about c) that America is large itself.

[Robert Hall]

large country, large (heavy) people, large food (super size, big portions, etc), large houses, large stores, large BMs, large trucks, large cars. I think this is part of why so many people elsewhere hate the US..we supersize everything.. :) Edited February 16, 2006 by moltar

[balthazar]

Russia is a very vast country, many russians are very large people, the ZIL and ZIS were large, chunky cars based on '50s Packard body dies, vast military (at one point), huge subs & ships, big trucks.... must be why the rest of the world hates Russia. Who wants to cover China next? Don't leave out the sumo wrestlers!

[razoredge]

Small cars may very well be a necessity in 10 years. Something is going to give, like it did in the 70/80's. Small cars are great but it shouldnt mean they are made cheap. GM is going to need to build a few excellent small, solid, well equiped cars to help get rid of the urban legends. Today is a good time to start. Chevy badges might not be the answer Im looking for. The situation we are in now with gas Im wishing for an old 1900lb Rabbit Diesel with vinyl seats and crank windows............so how far have we really progressed ? It would still cost over 4 dollars a day to get to work. The problem I noticed with some small cars is the front wheel house intrudes into the area one would like to occupy with the left foot, I mean I realize left front tires are somewhat mandatory but perhaps its time to LOOSE the "cab forward" stroke of genious and put some space between the driver and that left front tire. Of course we could always move the front axis forward........and call it axis forward........hey maybe that would be class leading........... <_<

[Robert Hall]

Russia is a very vast country, many russians are very large people, the ZIL and ZIS were large, chunky cars based on '50s Packard body dies, vast military (at one point), huge subs & ships, big trucks.... must be why the rest of the world hates Russia.

Who wants to cover China next? Don't leave out the sumo wrestlers!

[post="93521"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You missed the smiley..I was being sarcastic and only semi-serious. The US does consume way more of everything than any other country, though...and as far as the large vehicles, no other country has mainstream use of vehicles as large as we do (think about all the huge crew cab duallie pickups, Suburbans, etc ).

And sumo wrestling is in Japan, not China.

[balthazar]

Sorry there: I'm still getting red Xs on my end. I have tended to ignore them since. :( Sure the U.S. consumes more in general- having the space & capital allows that luxury. But having the largest vehicles surely has nothing -even semi-seriously- to do with any other country's/ individual's opinion of the U.S..

[Hudson]

large country, large (heavy) people, large food (super size, big portions, etc), large houses, large stores,  large BMs, large trucks, large cars.    I think this is part of why so many people elsewhere hate the US..we supersize everything.. :)

I'm guessing this is closer to the truth than just about anything else here. "Fat" Americans can't fit into a number of small vehicles. I get upset when I test a car and it has everything going for it except that the seat was designed for Americans' backsides. No lateral support on a big, flat seat.

When fitting a Big Gulp into the cupholder takes priority over gas mileage, I get upset.

While Russian big cars are used by the government, even the Russian people (only 30% of households have a car in Russia) drive much more reasonably sized vehicles like Ladas (over 700,000 are built every year). With all of the Ford Focuses and Chevrolet Vivas and Ladas, the dozen or so Zils built every year don't really matter. If America had that ratio, nobody would complain about the 15mpg vehicles driving the roads.

[Camino LS6]

Not only do I need a large vehicle (truck) to make my living, I prefer larger, more powerful vehicles in general. If it doesn't offer a V8, i'm not likely to give it a second glance. While I can appreciate well executed small cars like the Solstice and the Mini, I'm not likely to ever choose one. Additionally, most small cars are FWD and that completely disqualifies them from consideration for me.

[mrmonte]

Not only do I need a large vehicle (truck) to make my living, I prefer larger, more powerful vehicles in general.  If it doesn't offer a V8, i'm not likely to give it a second glance. While I can appreciate well executed small cars like the Solstice and the Mini, I'm not likely to ever choose one. Additionally, most small cars are FWD and that completely disqualifies them from consideration for me.

[post="94620"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm in the same boat but I have replaced two of my Ram Vans with Sprinters Big cost savings. Any how for my personal car(s) I dont care what all these crash tests say (small cars are safe enough) I am staying with a full size car. I feel safer the car rides and drives better. As far as the front wheel drive goes I am in full agreement about that too. I read some place that the BOF ford products are one of the safest cars you can buy. I wasnt at all suprised. and that proves my point when people say its too big.

[Camino LS6]

I'm in the same boat but I have replaced two of my Ram Vans with Sprinters Big cost savings. Any how for my personal car(s) I dont care what all these crash tests say (small cars are safe enough) I am staying with a full size car. I feel safer the car rides and drives better. As far as the front wheel drive goes I am in full agreement about that too. I read some place that the BOF ford products are one of the safest cars you can buy. I wasnt at all suprised. and that proves my point when people say its too big.

[post="94667"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's all a matter of perspective really, I still think of Chevelles and Monte carlos as midsizers(they were in their time). I never thought of the 4th gen F-bodies as too big and I think of my 2004 GTO as smallish. The size of the GTO (and other Commodore-based cars) is just about perfect. Anything smaller just doesn't really do it for me. Another example would be the Pre-Bangle BMW 3 and 5 series, they were just about perfect sizewise. On the other hand, the B-bodies were a bit big for my taste though I do like them. I can deal with a car that's just a bit bigger than I like,but not one that's smaller(with rare exceptions).

[Sixty8panther]

If I can't fit the entire contents of the known universe in the map pocket, the car is too small.  :CG_all:

[post="94764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I honestly do not think the current Corwn Vic deserves to be called full-size, to me BIG is a 1959 Buick flattop, HUGE is a 1961 Cadillac Combo. Hearse. :unitedstates: :spin:

[Dsuupr]

I'm not saying it won't change over time, especially with Gen Y, but the people with the money are still buying more big than little. And as much as the press likes to make us think the Mini & Beetle are such a great success, just remember the Aveo outsells both of them. The Aveo has been a success for Chevrolet even if it isn't the car of choice for many of us car enthusiasts.

[The O.C.]

I'm not saying it won't change over time, especially with Gen Y, but the people with the money are still buying more big than little.

And as much as the press likes to make us think the Mini & Beetle are such a great success, just remember the Aveo outsells both of them.  The Aveo has been a success for Chevrolet even if it isn't the car of choice for many of us car enthusiasts.

[post="95104"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Dsuupr,

Go read my previous post on this thread about WHY the MINI is considered a success.

It's not all sales numbers. I GUARANTEE you that a MINI dealer is making much greater profits on every MINI they sell than a Chevy dealer makes on any Aveo.

Most are still selling here for window sticker....and some hot models are even selling $1K-2K more....

Remember MINI dealers are selling every MINI they can get their hands on. They are severely limited in allocation by what MINI USA can get. The only way for my dealer to get more MINIs is to buy them from other dealers across the country and get them shipped out here.

THAT'S why many people consider MINI a success.

[regfootball]

the biggest factor influencing mpg is WEIGHT, not size. anyways, as long as pickups and semis and SUV's are plentiful....small cars will be second fiddle. lack of size, not as safe. most need some more power and smoothness. most family drivers won't touch a small car.