What do you really think?

[turbo200]

Simple question, simple answer. I'm sorry I had to put the Corvette as an aside, but since it's, imo, there only class-leading product, I had to list the caveat. And, it is after all, the flagship, GM has to get it right. So share some opinions, give me your best, we're all fans, and we're all interested in the best for this company.


EDIT: Sorry I wasn't more specific. This question should be, "In general do you think GM makes class-leading or competitive products." This should not include just a few entrants, consider the number of segments GM competes in, and consider how many are actually class-leading or very near the top of that segment [otherwise known as competitive]. Edited December 12, 2005 by turbo200

[Croc]

What a silly question, of course not! I would like to add to this, that if someone votes "YES" they should name the classleading products. Edited December 12, 2005 by Croc

[Croc]

Actually, I thought of one. The SRX is classleading. Whether that means my vote should switch based on ONE model is up to turbo, but I think not.

[Newbiewar]

What a silly question, of course not!

I would like to add to this, that if someone votes "YES" they should name the classleading products.

[post="57234"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

although the Silverado is not a new product... drive the competition...

the Silverado is the best truck on the market... aside from having a 15 year old interior... its the best vehicle

and i'd have to say the avalanche... is also an awesome truck... it has one of the smoothest rides i've ever been in... better then any car, truck, or SUV's i've ever riden... and keep in mind, i drive used cars all day long, from all automakers...

so i'd also venture to say the new grand prix GXP asside from being the most powerful FWD car from a factory... its swead/leather interior is unmatched with the competition, and from what i hear it handles like a dream, and acceloration?

I'm not saying that every car is great... or some arent even good... but the bland silverado is class leading if no other models are...

[Croc]

My vote goes to the F-150 in that market...but with the GMT-900s I'm sure I'll change my mind.

[Flybrian]

My list:
Corvette - I won't discount it.
Lucerne - I have my reasons and will defend them.
DTS - Its in a dwindling class and I see its only real competitor being the Lincoln Town Car. 'Nuff said.
Fullsize pickups and SUVs - This should be readily apparent. What the leftover pickups and SUVs lack in interior beauty they more than make up for in durability, fuctionality, and variety. Also, I'll pull a Consumer Reports and say 'based on past track record' of the current crop and the interior improvements of the '07 Tahoe, et al, they'll continue to be class-leading.
Express/Savana - They're safer and more economical than the best-seller Econoline.

Yeah. It is a small list.

[Sixty8panther]

There are dozens of vehicles offered by several divisions of GM right now... like all else in life this can not be a simple YES or NO answer... the answer its obviously somewhere in between. I would have worded the question what percentage of vehicles are competetive? 10, 20, 30, - all the way to a 100 Anyway here's some great products from GM that are very much competetive: Corvette (obviously) Hummer H2 Colorado CTS-V STS-V Escalade/EXT and all of it's cousins (GMC & Chevy) Silverado & Sierra Cobalt Solstice GTO Express Van SRX And when the Camaro finally shows up it will kick some ass for sure! Outside of the USA Opel/Vauxhall and Holden hold their own 80% of the time. SAABs are nice but WAY overpriced. Subaru saddly is no longer a part of the GM empire. :(

[mystik]

I believe the Solstice is a class leading product. State of the art exterior, refined interior. I believe the CTS-V is a class leading product. Bang for buck the best performance sedan you can buy. I believe the Z06 is a class leading product. No explanation needed. I believe the SRX is a class leading product. Best crossover still. I believe the Silverado/Avalanche are class leading products. The engine and ride qualities still have them up there. Heres one thing Ive noticed about GM cars...they have this soul to them. My dad was looking for a truck. Drove the Titan, the Tundra, the new F150 and the Avalanche. Went with the Avalanche. Why? Its the one that had the most personality, and seemed to try not as hard as the others. Go drive a Titan. Class leading horsepower, blah blah blah. Engine sucks. Ill take a 5.3 ANY day. You could tell that thing was Japanese if you were blindfolded. This reminds me a lot of sports. On paper, a team can be great. Like the Lakers that lost to the Pistons. But if it just doesnt click, it just doesnt click. End of story. GM still makes cars with personality.

[Croc]

My list:
Corvette - I won't discount it.
Lucerne - I have my reasons and will defend them.
DTS - Its in a dwindling class and I see its only real competitor being the Lincoln Town Car. 'Nuff said.
Fullsize pickups and SUVs - This should be readily apparent. What the leftover pickups and SUVs lack in interior beauty they more than make up for in durability, fuctionality, and variety. Also, I'll pull a Consumer Reports and say 'based on past track record' of the current crop and the interior improvements of the '07 Tahoe, et al, they'll continue to be class-leading.
Express/Savana - They're safer and more economical than the best-seller Econoline.

Yeah. It is a small list.

[post="57248"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I could agree with this list with the exception of the pickups. F-150 is better, but the corresponding SUVs are better at GM. I'll accept Lucerne though I think it is missing a lot of features it should have. DTS? No. Lucerne is better than it, so DTS cannot be classleading since they really compete in the same class.

[El Scorcho]

I said yes, but there are only a few models that I'm too tired to list.

[CSpec]

I voted No. Here's my list of class leaders: Cobalt SS s/c (not the others) Corvette (I'm not sure what class it's in, but it's damn good) GTO SSR (that's cheating since it doesnt have direct competitors, but kudos for trying something new) Sky (over Solstice based on interior) 9-3 SportCombi 2.8t GMT-900s

[Cory Wolfe]

Is there a such thing as too simple? I'd have to say yes... Also, competitive and class leading aren't the same, IMO. So this poll is kind of "off" from start, if you ask me. Anyways, I misread and misinterpretted the original question, so I accidentally voted no. I do believe the General has more than just one competitive vehicle, albeit not many. SRX, XLR, GMT900s, Corvette, Solstice, GTO... And if you count certain trims... CTS-V, Cobalt SS SC, and Grand Prix GXP (try to find me a better FWD performance sedan... price counts).

[Newbiewar]

My vote goes to the F-150 in that market...but with the GMT-900s I'm sure I'll change my mind.

[post="57246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

whens the last time you drove an F150?

[Croc]

whens the last time you drove an F150?

[post="57294"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I haven't. But the interior is damn amazing, and is best in class, at least until the GMT-900s. F-150 is also the #1 truck by sales. It also looks the best IMO.

[VenSeattle]

There's a difference between "Class Competitive" and "Class Leading." I think the poll was for Class Competitive. GM's full size pick-ups are still very class competitive.

[Croc]

The initial post said "class-leading."

[VenSeattle]

so the poll question was changed(?): "Aside from the Corvette, does GM build vehicles that are truly competitive with others?"

[turbo200]

I guess it should mean class-leading products. In the other thread I mentioned class-leading. And I don't mean to discount the power of the Corvette, it's just that it's so widely recognized as an incredible automobile, and is the flagship, thereby excluding it from the list of competitive products. No, Croc, one extra car does not mean General Motors makes competitive vehicles, thanks for bringing that question up. The question is in general, so in general do they make competitive or class-leading products? if you just think one or two are, when they compete out of how many segments, well you get the gist. I haven't through all this, but so far I like the results. This is completely unscientific, and is just for fun purposes, and I'd love to hear as many opinions as possible. Do you feel they make class-leading products. And let's not resort to mud-slinging here. Let's respect other people's opinions and what they have to say on this front. Chruch Lady Out. LOL

[VenSeattle]

Class leading? Perhaps not... at least in many categories... but overall, Yes competitive:

Mainstream Sedans:

Compact: Cobalt is class competitive
Midsize: Impala is class competitive
Large: Lucerne is class competitive/class leading

Luxury Sedans:

Entry-level luxury car: CTS is still class competitive
Luxury sedan: STS is class competitive

Roadsters:

Affordable roadster: Solstice & Sky are class competitive/class leading
Sports/performance roadster: Corvette is class competitive/class leading
Luxury roadster: XLR is class competitive/class leading

SUVs/CUVs/SUVs/Minivans:

Compact CUV: Equinox, Torrent, & VUE are class competitive
Compact SUV: H3 is class competitive
Midsize/Large CUV: (pending Lambda)
Midsize SUV: 9-7x is class competitive
Large SUV: GMT 900s are class leading; H2 is class competitive
Minivan: (pending Lambda)

Pick-ups:

Full-size pickup: Silverado-Sierra are class competitive
CUT: Avalanche is still class competitive/class leading

[turbo200]

ven, my definition of class competitive is still near the top of the segment, do you still agree with all your choices. i just want to make sure everyone is on the same page now. class competitive=near the top, or at the very top of the segment.

[VenSeattle]

ven, my definition of class competitive is still near the top of the segment, do you still agree with all your choices.

i just want to make sure everyone is on the same page now. class competitive=near the top, or at the very top of the segment.

[post="57333"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As you said, this is completely unscientific. It's a matter of perception.

For the most part, yes, I agree with my choices. The vehicles listed are NOT at the bottom. Not even close. CR & Edmunds don't give most of them the credit I feel they deserve. Their opinions/reviews don't change my final descision.

No one should feel ashamed to drive any of the above GM products that I listed. The decision to pick them over others (or vice versa) is a matter of preference.

You say "near the top" is acceptable... how near? I'd say the new Civic might be considered better than the Cobalt but not much else. So 2nd place is acceptable as class competitive? I'd put the Impala behind the Accord & 500 but in front of the current Camry. So is 3rd place still considered acceptable?

STS-V just placed 2nd in the C&D comparison test… that must mean something. I feel the STS is a completely solid product that is solely distinguished from the rest by interior/exterior styling. You either like the styling or not, but the fundamentals and goods are there.

Same can be said for Equinox, Sky, H3, etc....

Once again, it's all a matter of perception.

[razoredge]

Ah yes, so interesting how the turn of this thred has been. We're all confused and all, perjaps we need to change our minds, as the specifications for the poll become twisted and oh, so hard to figure. "Which way shall I turn, which way I say." perjaps if I remain long enough I can have my mind changed based on the confusion of "class leading or class competitive". Then I can only ask myself, do I have any class and if not can I possible give an evaluation based on little more than OPINION :rolleyes:

[The O.C.]

Simple question, simple answer. I'm sorry I had to put the Corvette as an aside, but since it's, imo, there only class-leading product, I had to list the caveat. And, it is after all, the flagship, GM has to get it right. So share some opinions, give me your best, we're all fans, and we're all interested in the best for this company.
EDIT: Sorry I wasn't more specific. This question should be, "In general do you think GM makes class-leading or competitive products." This should not include just a few entrants, consider the number of segments GM competes in, and consider how many are actually class-leading or very near the top of that segment [otherwise known as competitive].

[post="57229"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My answer does not take into account sales numbers....it's simply my honest opinion of GM cars.

My answer would be....."in general".....NO.....they do not make class-leading or competitive products.

Do they make competitive products or even class-leading..? SURE but in VERY small quantities.

Of course, Corvette.

I'd call the new GMT-900's DEFINITELY class-leading.....based on my early view of them.

I don't consider the current full-size pickups class-leading......they've been eclipsed by Ford, Dodge, and the imports in too many areas.

The CTS is definitely a contender.....even though some of the interior plastics are inferior, overall the car is definitely competitive...it's a great drive.

The STS? Not even a chance.....a major disappointment.

G6 could be.....with an up-to-date drivetrain (HF V6 and 5-or-6-speed auto.)

Cobalt close....but it's styling and shoddy interior quality just got eclipsed by Honda...and has never been as good as Mazda3.

As much as I like the LaCrosse and Impala, they really cannot be competitive overall without abandoning the ancient W-Car/GM-10 architecture....and they still lack 5-or-6-speed automatics.

GM's current crossovers are not competitive.....Equinox and Torrent suffer from nasty steering feel, underpowered pushrod V6s, and crappy interior quality and trim.

I LOVE the Lucerne....but sadly even IT is still not really competitive from the standpoint that it lacks way too many features that are becoming commonplace on sedans in its pricerange. 3800 engine and 4-speed auto are substandard to begin with and it now looks like the NorthStar is even underpowered for it's "V8" status.....(I think I read it only hits 60mph in 7.5secs? A V6 Avalon is 6.0 flat.)

There's plenty of GM cars I would say I LIKE......but me liking them AND me considering them class-leading and competitive are, sadly, two different things.

[VenSeattle]

OC... just curious. Why do you feel the STS is not competitive? or even close? And what features do you feel are missing on the Lucerne?

[Northstar]

Right now GM doesn't make a lot of class leading products, but give them a couple of years to get all the Lutz products out and I think the vast majority will be very competitive or at the top of their segments. There are a good number of vehicles that I feel are class competitive/class leading, but the % is pretty low because GM has so many bad and outdated products. I think a better question would be: "Do you feel the new GM products (forget the ones that are 4-5 years old because no one builds class leading products that are outdated) are class competitive/class leading?"

[turbo200]

imo, STS isn't competitive because of a very poor quality interior in the most hotly contested market. GM wants to command some lofty prices for the STS, and it needs to have the perception that it is a total luxury piece. As it stands, it could use some Materials lovin' as well as a design freshening. The M45 way outshines the interior of the STS; in the rear seat controls alone the STS looks rental grade, whereas the M exudes class. The STS back seat is pretty tight, though I'm not totally sure how it compares within its class. It lacks the total moves, unless equipped with option packages that bump the price into the 60's. All in all, it's not a car that is completely baked, like the rest of GM's cars, imo. It's a decent car, but that's not good enough, especially in this segment.

[The O.C.]

OC... just curious.

Why do you feel the STS is not competitive? or even close?

And what features do you feel are missing on the Lucerne?

[post="57595"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think it (STS) is too close in size to the CTS in real-world terms. Sit inside both and you'll see what I mean.

I think the STS is too high-priced....once again considering how competent CTS is. Cheap interior materials don't help.

BUT I really think Caddy lost it when they "toned-down" the "edge" styling on the STS. I think the CTS design language is far more successful and far more striking.

Also, CTS doesn't have first-class interior materials, but the striking and unusual interior design (which I find quite attractive) kinda makes up for it.

CTS seems to be far more comparable and competitive with its competition set (3-series, C-class, TSX, Lexus IS, etc.) than STS is with its competition set (5-series, E-Class, etc.)

As far as Lucerne, first of all, I really like the car and think it will do pretty well. However, Navigation has been delayed, there's no power tilt/telescope, 4-speed automatic is outdated, and even though you can't change this as easily, it should be RWD.

I know there are more features lacking that others on here have listed in other posts....

Like I said....not to say I don't LIKE those cars, but my liking them and them being leaders in their segments are two different things. Edited December 13, 2005 by The O.C.

[Petra]

The poll is flawed. It asks both wether GM has class-leading products and competitive products. We need to make a dichotomy here.

[Newbiewar]

okay... now we argue about baised about the media, we ourselves cant agree or dont think GM itself has anything to offer that is competative or class leading... even as the fanatics beleive that only 50% there are some competative products... and those can only name a handful of names... where as there are over 80 different models coming out of gm... soo... ladys and gentleman... i guess we are giving gm the gears :CG_all:

[CARBIZ]

I'm with Fly on this one: Corvette Lucerne (not everybody wants to drive stiff suspensions!) full size pickups - oh, c'mon Ford - how many welds and bolts does it take to make a box floor anyway? full size SUVs - anybody actually drive an Expedition? Express/Savana - just knowing that Ford welds on 20" to the back of their "extended" would make me stay away I would add that the Impala, despite its aged architecture is going to prove the Camry and Accord wrong - despite no 20 spd tranny

[Cadillacfan]

It's weird. In some cases.. GM really excells and in others... GM is horrible. Take Cadillac: The brand is really going somewhere. The brand has really taken off since the Escalade and CTS. It's still not class-leading but seeing how uncompetitive the brand was just six years ago, Caddy has come a long way. The interiors are getting better too. I think the new Escalade interior, although some may not agree, looks amazing. Corvette: class leading since you get all that power and style for a fraction of it's competitors. Interior needs some real work though. Chevy: Needs more attractive vehicles, higher quality vehicles. Impala is a good start but it has as much flavor as a Starbucks Latte............. which is not a lot. The Cobalt is a million times better then the Cavalier but compared to the rest of the competition, it's nowhere near class leading. The Malibu is..... well... let's just say that the 08 malibu can't come soon enough. Having said that.. I've driven in the Malibu Maxx many times and it's a pretty good car but in order to make people buy it instead of a Camry or an Accord, it needs a serious style infusion and an amazing interior. Monte Carlo can just die. HHR can use a new Chevy-style nose in a few years to get me to want to buy one. It's better then the PT.. but then again.. so is everything else. the new Full-sizers are going to be really nice - class leading... maybe until Toyota tries again.. hopefully even when Toyota comes to the party... The TB and Colorado need serious revamps... and soon because they are certainly falling to the bottom of the class. Pontiac needs more products like the Solstice and less products like the Torrent, the Montana SV6, and the G6 sedan.(the coupe and convertable are pretty sweet) Those products are by far not class-leading. GMC's products have always been good but I can buy a chevy for a lower price. GMC needs to make unique trucks for once. The new Yukon is still too similar to the Tahoe. I'm not opposed to getting rid of the brand. Saturn's future looks good and quality may be on the increase. but if the Evoke is delayed or shelved, it might be the first big roadblock to the brand's recovery. Buick... well... Buick might be the least likely to survive after all is said and done. Quality is very high.. but the sales don't reflect that.

[Cory Wolfe]

...and the G6 sedan.(the coupe and convertable are pretty sweet). Those products are by far not class-leading.

I'm just curious... how are the coupe and conv better enough than the sedan for you to call them "pretty sweet" and the sedan "by far not class-leading".

Other than styling, btw... since that is completely subjective and most probably find those to be... less good-looking than the sedan and weird, if not bordering on ugly.

[Cadillacfan]

I've been in the G6 coupe and the G6 sedan and the coupe is far more exiting to drive and look at.

[rkmdogs]

On the truck comparisons, I can only give a dated opinion. Traded an S-10 for a Dodge Quadcab, when they made them correctly, instead of a Silverado, which was too pricey and did not offer features. Today would buy a Nissan Titan, for the same reason - features. And by the way, they can't be all that bad since they got picked as TOTY by several mags! GM has shown some very worthwhile features on concepts, and then never produced them (side door on bed). Looked at Avalanche -- too gaudy and too pricey! That's what killed the Envoy XUV -- attitude that features are pricey extras --- to pay extra for! John DeLorean started that mentality at GM and they have never lost it since! That's how the Japs got into the US market, by giving everything but the kitchen sink --- as standard, and matching lowline pricing! Oh yeah, minivans? Nobody has even mentioned them, 'cause it looks like the General has abandoned that market entirely! A state-of-the-art Astro could still kick ass! Station wagons! Oh-h-h, thats a dirty word now, but the HHR is currently the only model where the second row seats fold perfectly flat! Hoo-rah! Give that design team a big fat cigar!!! Right now the General is not even playing a good game of catch-up. His sucesses are overwhelmed by the mediocre majority----- and that is where perception lies! In the Overalls! So General, get your head out of your ass and bring out, quickly, some of the exciting new things that you have teased us with at shows. Your turn-around time needs to be cut in half! ----- But please do it right the first time, and don't make the customers part of your test fleet! Recalls don't help your rep. Ask Ford!!!! Edited December 15, 2005 by rkmdogs

[Cory Wolfe]

I've been in the G6 coupe and the G6 sedan and the coupe is far more exiting to drive and look at.

[post="58820"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Unless you were comparing a GT sedan to a GTP coupe... The coupe gets nothing that the sedan doesn't. Both GTs are the same and both GTPs are the same. Same engine, same steering, same brakes, same transmissions, same suspension, same everthing. So how exactly did you come to that conclusion? :huh:

[stickmax]

Class leading: Corvette Class competitive: 9-3 Cobalt CTS H2/H2T Sky SRX STS Solstice XLR

[jry]

i must admit, that merc. dash is nice! too bad the car is so small.

[Innotech]

heres al ittle question. How many class leading products are best sellers? Not many.

[prinzSD]

I think it (STS) is too close in size to the CTS in real-world terms.  Sit inside both and you'll see what I mean.

I think the STS is too high-priced....once again considering how competent CTS is.  Cheap interior materials don't help. 

BUT I really think Caddy lost it when they "toned-down" the "edge" styling on the STS.  I think the CTS design language is far more successful and far more striking.

Also, CTS doesn't have first-class interior materials, but the striking and unusual interior design (which I find quite attractive) kinda makes up for it.

CTS seems to be far more comparable and competitive with its competition set (3-series, C-class, TSX, Lexus IS, etc.) than STS is with its competition set (5-series, E-Class, etc.)

As far as Lucerne, first of all, I really like the car and think it will do pretty well.  However, Navigation has been delayed, there's no power tilt/telescope, 4-speed automatic is outdated, and even though you can't change this as easily, it should be RWD.

I know there are more features lacking that others on here have listed in other posts....

Like I said....not to say I don't LIKE those cars, but my liking them and them being leaders in their segments are two different things.

[post="57652"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My boss is getting a Lucern, he will be trading in his Old Intrigue but he is not sure which trim level he will get.

[The O.C.]

My boss is getting a Lucern, he will be trading in his Old Intrigue but he is not sure which trim level he will get.

[post="60803"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I have a feeling the CXS is the only way to go.......if you stay light on options, you can stay a bit away from $39K....

CXS has the firmest (of three) suspension setups.....and ya gotta have the NorthStar (over the 3800.)

[z28luvr01]

The Lucerne loses points for the 3.8L in the entry level model, but makes up for it with the low asking price for the base V8 models. I saw this car yesterday in silver with the tan/tuxedo blue interior and it was nothing short of striking. I'll gladly list it as my first "class competitive" GM vehicles. My others: Cobalt - own one and you'll understand that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. HHR - with PT, Element, Scion xB as its primary competition, it beats all three handily. GMT800s - Okay so their interios are dated, get over it. The F150s fits together better, but I don't find anything special about the design in person. Despite the flaws of the GM trucks, you'll still be hard pressed to find trucks that provide a better combination of power, fuel economy, and capability. Plus, the Avalanche has the added bonus of having no competition. XLR - quicker performance, better handling compared to the SL, at a cheaper price. The best current Caddy interior doesn't hurt, either. I wil also make an aurgument for the Impala, since it offers a heck of a lot considering what you pay for it.

[G. David Felt]

B) Yup Here is my list of winners: All of Cadillac Chevy and GMC Trucks and SUV's. Corvette Pontiac GTO, sleeper car, very underrated by press and people in general. Solstic and the saturn twin. Biggest disappointments: Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn and Buick car's for the most part. Not there yet, ugly styling and still front wheel drive. Yes there are some cases for a solid dependable front wheel drive auto, but for me I want rear wheel drive. Short but Oh So SWEET! :P

[funkypunnk]

I may be biased, but 4 years after the Avalanche premiered it still goes unchallenged. I think unchallenged clearly equals top of its segment andclass leading. It is big inside and in the bed, plus it gets even bigger when you need it to. Oh wait, doesn't Ford have some crappy sport-trac POS that is supposed to compete with it, I can fit it in my bed.

[superstreet]

What a silly question, of course not!

I would like to add to this, that if someone votes "YES" they should name the classleading products.

[post="57234"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

<_< ithink that if you say that gm is not a competitive brand so what about your picture of a mercury?

mercury is almost the worst brand of the entire world :lol:

[Croc]

<_<  ithink that if you say that gm is not a competitive brand so what about your picture of a mercury?

mercury is almost the worst brand of the entire world :lol:

[post="63338"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think the Milan, Montego, Mariner, Mountaineer, Monterey and Grand Marquis are quite a bit more competitive than the EV-1, thank you very much!

Obviously GM as a company is more competitive than Mercury, a mere brand :rolleyes:

[NOS2006]

Class leading, you say? Here's my little list: STS and STS-V XLR and XLR-V DTS (read: Flybrian) Corvette (not counted per request) Cobalt SS SC HHR (read: z28luvr01) Avalanche (read: z28luvr01) GTO Solstice/Sky And that's about it. So, about half of Cadillac and a small portion of both Chevy and Pontiac. So, is GM game? Not really.

[Whistler]

No... overall, I don't think their cars are all that competitive if you take price out of the equation. I love GM... but its a love hate relationship. They have such great potential with their products but ALWAYS seem to find a way to f*ck it all up. I think most GM fans are like me too... They may try to blame it on the media, on consumers, or whoever... but deep down everybody knows that GM has a great capacity to shoot themselves in the foot. Edited December 26, 2005 by Whistler

[Croc]

No... overall, I don't think their cars are all that competitive if you take price out of the equation.

I love GM... but its a love hate relationship. They have such great potential with their products but ALWAYS seem to find a way to f*ck it all up.

I think most GM fans are like me too... They may try to blame it on the media, on consumers, or whoever... but deep down everybody knows that GM has a great capacity to shoot themselves in the foot.

[post="63428"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BINGO

[Cory Wolfe]

No... overall, I don't think their cars are all that competitive if you take price out of the equation.

I love GM... but its a love hate relationship. They have such great potential with their products but ALWAYS seem to find a way to f*ck it all up.

I think most GM fans are like me too... They may try to blame it on the media, on consumers, or whoever... but deep down everybody knows that GM has a great capacity to shoot themselves in the foot.

[post="63428"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You could say that... over and over again.

[razoredge]

No... overall, I don't think their cars are all that competitive if you take price out of the equation.

I love GM... but its a love hate relationship. They have such great potential with their products but ALWAYS seem to find a way to f*ck it all up.

I think most GM fans are like me too... They may try to blame it on the media, on consumers, or whoever... but deep down everybody knows that GM has a great capacity to shoot themselves in the foot.

[post="63428"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think GM makes mistakes
I dont think it makes them any different from the rest
I think the media fixates on the mistakes and drives them home to make sure no one buys a GM
I think the media makes light of the mistakes made by Toyota and Honda and King "Hemi"