Interesting Wagoner Interview

[Guest buickman]

Haha...thats adorable.

Now. Who do we call for vastly over-inflated egos? Dr. Phil?

[post="58253"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Read Joe Girard.

[Guest buickman]

WHEN WILL BUCK MAN ANSWER MY QUESTIONS?  Again, you'd gain credability if you'd answer some questions!

[post="58251"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm leaving the store just now, I'll be more than glad to respond to your statement and answer your questions this evening. Keep hitting the Plan, try and tear it up, those are good things which can only point out weaknesses and make it stronger. Save the personal attacks, they're foolish. Never mind questioning my knowledge of car sales, that's really foolish.

going home for dinner with the kids. TTYL. Edited December 13, 2005 by buickman

[SingleStylish]

I'm leaving the store just now, I'll be more than glad to respond to your statement and answer your questions this evening. Keep hitting the Plan, try and tear it up, those are good things which can only point out weaknesses and make it stronger. Save the personal attacks, they're foolish. Never mind questioning my knowledge of car sales, that's really foolish.

going home for dinner with the kids. TTYL.

[post="58263"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Obviously I missed the previous fault in your plan. It was so glaringly obivious... it is you... do you realize that I read your website "General Watch." Seriously, the "editorials" which are obviously only your own rantings from here sound like delusions.

As for your comment on selling cars... I've sold them... my brother sold them. The car dealing game is nothing like Wall Street nor running a corporation. A general manager at a dealership deals at most with qoutas, incentives, and high turnover. Don't get me started on selling cars...

It took a damn good college education for me to realize that 'the good ol' days' have long since past. As long as you keep thinking that those Buicks and Chevy's you sell are the best vehicles on the market you are living in the days long since past. The real truth is that America could care less about brands for the most part. And that's the way it should be. No one should be forced to buy a product they don't want simply because of a name. If you want the manufacturer you like to sell products you want... don't buy crap from them you don't want. Period.

Your plan revolves around selling cars to GM employees and the dealer body. Firing Rick Wagoner and shuffling upper management would create negative buzz in the company and further reduce investor confidence while the 'new guys' get used to the job.

If you really want to help GM quite SELLING cars and start catering to what the customer REALLY WANTS. If you find your customers can't find anything in the GM fold... go sell Volvos. The point is, don't make GM's problem so elementary. The problem is bigger than "BIG RED RICK," the problem is a corporate society that got complacent, took to long to embrace advances in technology that wouldv'e allowed for globalization decades ago, and offered and fostered a since of invincibility.

[Guest buickman]

WHEN WILL BUCK MAN ANSWER MY QUESTIONS?  Again, you'd gain credability if you'd answer some questions!

[post="58251"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Return to Greatness really has nothing to do with globalization unless you understand that the self destruction of GM is related to the goals of international money interests, but that is another subject. I would however recommend the UAW to organize globally, but they can't even organize the transplants. The Plan pertains to selling cars. In the words of Denny Crane, "It's that simple".

Trimming model lines isn't necessary, we've done enough of that. Some replacing may be in order, such as Roadmaster for Terrazza. Main overlap is in the number of lawyers and bean counters on staff, along with PR redundancy. Unsuccessful vehicles like the SSR do need to go, and preventative measures instituted to avoid another Aztek. Nor do we need to spend untold millions on repeated changes to satisfy Mr Lutz. More millions were wasted redoing LaCrosse than we can ever hope to recover.

Names? Lose the alpha-numeric gibberish and restore Camaro and Wildcat. This time, have them represent something, unlike the GTO charade.

Styling probably should be done through regional creative centers around the globe, so as to understand and appreciate local trends and desires while providing variety.

Technological progress is both inevitable and beneficial. Attempts at hindering such are futile. Retrain workers for new productive purposes.

Old Plants? Do you mean like closing Oklahoma just after we spent millions on the body shop? We sell cars and all of a sudden we need productive capacity, problem solved.

How about the checks we write TO Gettlefinger through Joint Funds and VEBA? Tell me about the $1 Billion we just set aside to be administered by Solidarity House with their 20% administrative fee? Is that why they call themselves the Administrative Caucus? See www.GreggShotwell.com and www.futureoftheunion.com Read about the Death of the Constitutional UAW by Bill Hanline. Think you've heard of corruption? This stuff will shock you. The rank and file are fed up. Look closely and you'll see the beginnings of a Revolution. Saying Shotwell works on fuel pumps is like calling Walter Reuther a tool and die maker. I'm telling you watch this guy.

Retirees should receive everything promised to them and be left to enjoy their days.

Market research? See Step 9.

Africa/Asia? See Fritz. Zia Jian.

Marketing IS the problem. don't cloud the issue. This isn't about politics or foreign policy, it's about how to sell cars. As Keith Crain said a few months ago "All we need do is sell another million cars per year and these problems go away". Wagoner, I believe wants these problems so he can proceed with his scheme of offshore, non unionized production of vehicles distributed through factory owned channels. The workers can't strike if there is no factory, the retirees don't cost anything if they don't exist, and the dealers can't prevent GM distributorships if they are driven from the landscape.

This is about stimulating desires through presentations which result in aspirations.

Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" to understand the difference between "Looters" such as those in the Ren Cen and "Producers" such as the wonderful independant franchisees and the thousands of dedicated, hard working employees who daily toil to keep GM at its best. Yet we all suffer due to the incompetence of a few individuals who are not just allowing GM to die a slow death, they are guilty of murder.

Who is John Galt? Edited December 14, 2005 by buickman

[regfootball]

so buickman you are?...... -against spending money on new product vs. spending it on more marketing -for unions -against the notion of the global economy -against the majority of GM upper mgmt. exactly how the hell do you plan to get anywhere with this plan? -its about product

[Guest buickman]

so buickman you are?......

-against spending money on new product vs. spending it on more marketing

-for unions

-against the notion of the global economy

-against the majority of GM upper mgmt.
exactly how the hell do you plan to get anywhere with this plan?
-its about product

[post="58526"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

All for spending billions on new product while saving billions on marketing.
I am for the employees and retirees, preferably through good management instead of a corrupt cooperative of incompetent executives of the company and union officials on the take. Given a weak management, there exists a need for an honest union representation.
Can't be against a global economy, it exists. Just focusing on domestic share.
Began talking to management, then went to shareholders, blasted the media and academic world, working on union but found some bad apples, next month it's the dealers. (some real surprises in store!). The process will continue building momentum leading up to next June in Wilmington. Currently finishing manuscript and going to print with book approx 250 pages "Rats in the Glovebox" It details my dealings with GM and it's executives during their days of self-destruction and will expose specific examples of corruption. Funny, I told Lovejoy in his office that if he listened he would gain 5 points, if he didn't he'd lose 5. Remember the "29" pins? Guess I wasn't far off eh? Edited December 14, 2005 by buickman

[evok]

...but GM has no control of its dealers!  How can you have worked at a dealer and not know this fundamental fact????  IF GM CAN'T EVEN GET ITS DEALERS TO STOP INSTALLING CANVAS ROOFS ON THE NEW CADILLACS, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK GM CAN GET THEM TO CHANGE THEIR CORE BUSINESS STRATEGIES??

[post="58240"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Excellent point Croc, dealers are not owned by OEM. And because of franchise laws that are different in the 50 states, it ties the OEMs hand in what they can or can not do.

[evok]

Destination:
Yes, this is that big, it shows leadership, something we're desparately lacking. Don't lay claim to any positive about GMS. It was one of the biggest mistakes in our company's history.
Launch:
We can't launch a car correctly now. G6 coupe? Convertible? LaCrosse? Most desirable options and packages on constraint, color availability ridiculous, no brochures until after the vehicles arrive, rebates before units even in stock. Trust me, a coordinated launch is possible and desirable. Hell, put the folks in the jobs bank on it, we're paying them to do nothing, real brilliant management there brother.

[post="58201"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Elminiating destination charge = leadership, enough said on that point.

GMS was sorely needed to trim bloated inventories. GM needed to keep plants running based upon their current cost structure. In case you forgot, GM books revenue when they manufacture a car not when you sell one off your lot. At that point most of the time it cost them money because they have to credit your account for the allowances. It was not a answer to all their problems but it did certainly give them some breathing room in triming inventories and kept the plants running. There are things that could have been done differently that is a certain in hindsight but I do not think GM knew GMS would have been the success it did become. And, with any successful initiative, Ford, DCX and a few other jumped on board in no time.

And yes, given that it was such a success, there were many pull ahead sales. But from the data I have, there were many conquest sales. People that would other wise not have considered purchasing a GM vehicle. And from the data I have, a significant majority of GM's retail sales are to GM empoyees, retirees and suppliers aready eligible for GMS. You said yourself on a post to me on cz28, that the GMS did nothing to drive your sales when the program was in place. Why because, there was no incentive in your area to purchase at GMS.

First off, we launched nothing, you launched nothing but GM did launch the G6 etc as you state above. The G6 coupe and sedan were launched on time and on schedule. The Lacross was delayed because of Lutz (Needed to happen.), from initial program timing, not because of development delays like the G6 convertible.

I do agree that their "product mix" and projections on option penetration is historically horrible. SRX comes to mind. But staying on topic, that has nothing to do with product launch.

And to your last point since you keep going off topic, the jobs bank (if I remember correctly on dates) is a legacy of Ford accepting those terms in the mid 1980s as part of one of their restructurings. Because of pattern bargaining, GM accepted that.

Though I might be off slightly on timing in my above statement, that is a legacy current management has to deal with because of factors that happened in the past. Edited December 14, 2005 by evok

[evok]

Because under Wagoner we can't seem to make a profit, let alone predict when we will. Last time he tried, he said $10 per share by mid decade. It arrived and he said "it depends on how you define mid decade". This man is running GM?

[post="58199"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Still does not refute my post stating that your step does nothing to return GM to greatness.

STEP THIRTEEN: Profit Sharing. At year end, instead of giving our employees a cash award for profit sharing, give them the choice of common stock. Have them become true partners in the company's success. Owning stock would increase the employee perception that they are part of something, and would be more meaningful in the long term than a few dollars easily disposed of.

They have done this one for years. Until recently of course.

[evok]

Since my meeting with LaNeve, GM began setting aside $100 per employee referra, stackable towards future purchase. That is quite unlike the Ambassador program, GM in the driveway, or the LT1 executive privilege.

[post="58196"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Again another dance around, your step referred to the public and not GM employees.

Now lets use some logic, how does even GM's empoyee referal plan sell cars on the left and right coast where there are few GM employees to hand the referral out.

I am sure if I walked down Dort Highway in Flint I would be handed countless referrals, some of them for GM vehicles, but how does that solve GM's problems on Rodeo Drive CA?


Note:
For those that do not know, in Flint Dort Highway is a gentlemen's paradise.

[Guest buickman]

Still does not refute my post stating that your step does nothing to return GM to greatness.

STEP THIRTEEN: Profit Sharing. At year end, instead of giving our employees a cash award for profit sharing, give them the choice of common stock. Have them become true partners in the company's success. Owning stock would increase the employee perception that they are part of something, and would be more meaningful in the long term than a few dollars easily disposed of.

They have done this one for years.  Until recently of course.

[post="58589"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I guess we'll most likely never agree on Return to Greatness. I'll simply state that it is my firm belief that leadership exercised in the marketplace would inspire customers, dealers, suppliers, salespeople, employees and retirees to see a shining light. Perception is reality and GM needs to drastically change their image. The Plan would accomplish exectly that. I would like to thank each person who responded with support, and criticism, for the ideas presented.

Merry Christmas,
Jim Edited December 14, 2005 by buickman

[evok]

I guess we'll most likely never agree on Return to Greatness. I'll simply state that it is my firm belief that leadership exercised in the marketplace would inspire customers, dealers, suppliers, salespeople, employees and retirees to see a shining light. Perception is reality and GM needs to drastically change their image. The Plan would accomplish exectly that. I would like to thank each person who responded with support, and criticism, for the ideas presented.

Merry Christmas,
Jim

[post="58594"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your arguments are never consistent, drift off target or you never answer the question directly. Therefore, I understand completely why you never sold your plan to GM management. Not only is your plan weak on merit, your grounds for the plan are not rooted in what troubles GM.

Perception is reality, and your Return to Greatness will not change that, only good solid product.

Substance, not marketing gimicks will Return GM or any Company to Greatness.

The final out come, we all want the US auto industry to thrive and succeed, and for this discussion General Motors.

And have a Happy Holiday as well. Edited December 14, 2005 by evok

[evok]

How come SingleStylish is quoted and not me. I am jealous.

http://www.generalwatch.com/editorials/editorial.cfm?EdID=16

Murder Incorporated
Jim Dollinger
Wednesday, December 14, 2005

The following are answers to questions posed by a member of www.CheersandGears.com I thought you might find interest in the some of the responses.

Return to Greatness really has nothing to do with globalization unless you understand that the self destruction of GM is related to the goals of international money interests, but that is another subject. I would however recommend the UAW to organize globally, but they can't even organize the transplants. The Plan pertains to selling cars. In the words of Denny Crane, "It's that simple".

Trimming model lines isn't necessary, we've done enough of that. Some replacing may be in order, such as Roadmaster for Terrazza. Main overlap is in the number of lawyers and bean counters on staff, along with PR redundancy. Unsuccessful vehicles like the SSR do need to go, and preventative measures instituted to avoid another Aztek. Nor do we need to spend untold millions on repeated changes to satisfy Mr Lutz. More millions were wasted redoing LaCrosse than we can ever hope to recover.

Names? Lose the alpha-numeric gibberish and restore Camaro and Wildcat. This time, have them represent something, unlike the GTO charade.

Styling probably should be done through regional creative centers around the globe, so as to understand and appreciate local trends and desires while providing variety.

Technological progress is both inevitable and beneficial. Attempts at hindering such are futile. Retrain workers for new productive purposes.

Old Plants? Do you mean like closing Oklahoma just after we spent millions on the body shop? We sell cars and all of a sudden we need productive capacity, problem solved.

How about the checks we write TO Gettlefinger through Joint Funds and VEBA? Tell me about the $1 Billion we just set aside to be administered by Solidarity House with their 20% administrative fee? Is that why they call themselves the Administrative Caucus? See www.GreggShotwell.com and www.futureoftheunion.com Read about the Death of the Constitutional UAW by Bill Hanline. Think you've heard of corruption? This stuff will shock you. The rank and file are fed up. Look closely and you'll see the beginnings of a Revolution. Saying Shotwell works on fuel pumps is like calling Walter Reuther a tool and die maker. I'm telling you watch this guy.

Retirees should receive everything promised to them and be left to enjoy their days.

Market research? See Step 9.

Africa/Asia? See Fritz. Zia Jian.

Marketing IS the problem. don't cloud the issue. This isn't about politics or foreign policy, it's about how to sell cars. As Keith Crain said a few months ago "All we need do is sell another million cars per year and these problems go away". Wagoner, I believe wants these problems so he can proceed with his scheme of offshore, non unionized production of vehicles distributed through factory owned channels. The workers can't strike if there is no factory, the retirees don't cost anything if they don't exist, and the dealers can't prevent GM distributorships if they are driven from the landscape.

This is about stimulating desires through presentations which result in aspirations.

Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" to understand the difference between "Looters" such as those in the Ren Cen and "Producers" such as the wonderful independant franchisees and the thousands of dedicated, hard working employees who daily toil to keep GM at its best. Yet we all suffer due to the incompetence of a few individuals who are not just allowing GM to die a slow death, they are guilty of murder.

Who is John Galt? Edited December 14, 2005 by evok

[G. David Felt]

...but GM has no control of its dealers!  How can you have worked at a dealer and not know this fundamental fact????  IF GM CAN'T EVEN GET ITS DEALERS TO STOP INSTALLING CANVAS ROOFS ON THE NEW CADILLACS, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK GM CAN GET THEM TO CHANGE THEIR CORE BUSINESS STRATEGIES??

[post="58240"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Just becuase a certain segment of the market likes the new cadillacs with canvas fake convertible roofs does not mean a dealer should not offer the profitable service. This only makes everyone money and GM another vehicle sold.

Croc, the Focus needs to be on Quality Auto's with leadership from GM and working to enhance profitable addon sales to the dealerships.

Once Chrysler saw the large up swing from the black community for canvas roofs installed on 300 sedans, Chrysler helped setup up approved installers that could do this for the dealers and not void the warrenty.

Solid, Quality Auto built, To the point a fairly good marketing program and then for added profit to the dealers, a solid add-on enhancements for the vehicle. This is a win win solution for everyone.

[Guest buickman]

How come SingleStylish is quoted and not me.  I am jealous.

http://www.generalwatch.com/editorials/editorial.cfm?EdID=16

Murder Incorporated
Jim Dollinger
Wednesday, December 14, 2005

The following are answers to questions posed by a member of www.CheersandGears.com I thought you might find interest in the some of the responses.

Return to Greatness really has nothing to do with globalization unless you understand that the self destruction of GM is related to the goals of international money interests, but that is another subject. I would however recommend the UAW to organize globally, but they can't even organize the transplants. The Plan pertains to selling cars. In the words of Denny Crane, "It's that simple".

Trimming model lines isn't necessary, we've done enough of that. Some replacing may be in order, such as Roadmaster for Terrazza. Main overlap is in the number of lawyers and bean counters on staff, along with PR redundancy. Unsuccessful vehicles like the SSR do need to go, and preventative measures instituted to avoid another Aztek. Nor do we need to spend untold millions on repeated changes to satisfy Mr Lutz. More millions were wasted redoing LaCrosse than we can ever hope to recover.

Names? Lose the alpha-numeric gibberish and restore Camaro and Wildcat. This time, have them represent something, unlike the GTO charade.

Styling probably should be done through regional creative centers around the globe, so as to understand and appreciate local trends and desires while providing variety.

Technological progress is both inevitable and beneficial. Attempts at hindering such are futile. Retrain workers for new productive purposes.

Old Plants? Do you mean like closing Oklahoma just after we spent millions on the body shop? We sell cars and all of a sudden we need productive capacity, problem solved.

How about the checks we write TO Gettlefinger through Joint Funds and VEBA? Tell me about the $1 Billion we just set aside to be administered by Solidarity House with their 20% administrative fee? Is that why they call themselves the Administrative Caucus? See www.GreggShotwell.com and www.futureoftheunion.com Read about the Death of the Constitutional UAW by Bill Hanline. Think you've heard of corruption? This stuff will shock you. The rank and file are fed up. Look closely and you'll see the beginnings of a Revolution. Saying Shotwell works on fuel pumps is like calling Walter Reuther a tool and die maker. I'm telling you watch this guy.

Retirees should receive everything promised to them and be left to enjoy their days.

Market research? See Step 9.

Africa/Asia? See Fritz. Zia Jian.

Marketing IS the problem. don't cloud the issue. This isn't about politics or foreign policy, it's about how to sell cars. As Keith Crain said a few months ago "All we need do is sell another million cars per year and these problems go away". Wagoner, I believe wants these problems so he can proceed with his scheme of offshore, non unionized production of vehicles distributed through factory owned channels. The workers can't strike if there is no factory, the retirees don't cost anything if they don't exist, and the dealers can't prevent GM distributorships if they are driven from the landscape.

This is about stimulating desires through presentations which result in aspirations.

Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" to understand the difference between "Looters" such as those in the Ren Cen and "Producers" such as the wonderful independant franchisees and the thousands of dedicated, hard working employees who daily toil to keep GM at its best. Yet we all suffer due to the incompetence of a few individuals who are not just allowing GM to die a slow death, they are guilty of murder.

Who is John Galt?

[post="58743"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Correction: www.GreggShotwell.net

[Croc]

Just becuase a certain segment of the market likes the new cadillacs with canvas fake convertible roofs does not mean a dealer should not offer the profitable service.  This only makes everyone money and GM another vehicle sold.

Croc, the Focus needs to be on Quality Auto's with leadership from GM and working to enhance profitable addon sales to the dealerships. 

Once Chrysler saw the large up swing from the black community for canvas roofs installed on 300 sedans, Chrysler helped setup up approved installers that could do this for the dealers and not void the warrenty.

Solid, Quality Auto built, To the point a fairly good marketing program and then for added profit to the dealers, a solid add-on enhancements for the vehicle.  This is a win win solution for everyone.

[post="58855"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yea that's nice, but that wasn't the point of my post at all.

[Chicagoland]

For every one new Caddy sod with a fake drop top, there are 100+ younger buyers turned off at the sight of it and go, "eww I ain't getting no Old Man's car". And GM wonders why they are losing buyers? Sticking to old timer float mobiles is one reason.

[guionM]

I haven't read through the entire 7 pages, and I'm not patient enough tonight to rebut each and every point Buickman makes in these pages, and I don't need to since Evok is holding his own.

But I WILL point out that Buickman has a personal vendetta against Rick Wagoner. His rants, repetitive insults, and the silly anti-Wagoner rhetoric that pops up almost daily on his newsletters (which prompted me to remove myself from his mailing lists after awhile) is simply ridiculous.

I don't work for GM, I'm not on GM's payroll, and I have a reputation for taking any maker to task (especially GM) when I feel they are doing something stupid or at least questionable. However, GM knows what it's problem is, Wagnoer knows what the problem is, and I'm convinced they are well underway to fixing it.


1st of all, it typically takes 5 years for a new car to work through the development system. Most all new cars arriving in showrooms today were started in 2000. GM CEO at the time was Ron Zarella. This is the guy who said in an interview after he was demoted and returned to Boush & Loumb (he had no experience in the car industry, mind you) that his biggest regret was not putting even more resources into trucks and SUVs. This is despite the fact he cancelled Holden based RWD Buicks, the 5th gen F-body, and alot of money that would typically be used to update existing cars!

Wagoner took over in 2001, brought in Lutz and additional talent in 2002 & 2003 (including Brian Nesbitt from Chrysler, who went to Chevrolet & is now heading GM Europe design). He has been putting the best people in the right spots (like Ed Welburn who replaced Wayne Cherry at design), and created a chairmainship level world product position and moved Bob Lutz into it.

GM is eliminating overlap. The Solstice was more of a tool to find ways to streamline development than to create a new entry (plus, it's ALOT cheaper than advertising (it cost about the same as 1 month's advertising for Pontiac).

Wagoner, with a background in finance, is doing the opposite of what GM did when it was in trouble in the early 90s. It's cutting to invest MORE into product development (GM in the early 90s cut product to shore up finance, and was stuck with old cars that melted any perception that might have existed of GM cars being new or up to date).

Cars that were developed completely under Wagoner start poping up next year, and because of streamlining that's gone on at GM over the past few years, the 1st "no excuse" cars will show up in 2007, just as Evok said.

Buickman should know this, but for some reason he ignores these facts.


Instead, you are beaten to death about how Wagoner (even back to 1990, if you want to believe that) has been destroying GM piece by piece. All the other GM CEOs had nothing to do with anything bad, but now that Wagoner is CEO, he's even more at fault?

Buickman has actually come out and said on another site (and likely this one as well) that "Product is NOT the problem". To hear him tell it, GM is wasting billions of dollars developing new cars instead of using HIS plan which not only would cost GM nothing, but would magically fix ALL GM's problems. All he asks for is "fair" compensation.


Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, a magicial, a nuclear engineer or even a room tempreature IQ to see what's going on here. He even on a early page of this thread comes out and says it!

The guy went to GM to sell his plan as the best thing since bretheable oxygen and Rick Wagoner blew him off, and instead of compromising he's retaliating!

Being the lifelong salesman he is, Buickman honestly believes in what he's selling and that he can sell anything to anybody. The issue is never WHAT you are selling, if it's right for what's needed, or the other person's point of view or shortcomings people see... because it's all about the "sale".


Like alot of people here, I saw alot of merit in his plans. I wrote and told him that some of his ideas are good. Tt's no where near something that's going to "SAVE" GM, but it's something that combined with GM's upcoming new products, could improve the buying experience and salespeople's knowledge and enthusiasm for the brands they are selling. Other people offered input.

However, instead of a constructive give and take, there was a constant stream of anti-Wagoner nonsense and a constant stream of "My plan is the ONLY way GM is going to recover".

Finally, those who supported him over at CZ28 started getting sick of him, and turned against him. Even people who DIDN'T like Wagoner started feeling sorry for him because of Buickman's constant barrage. It got so bad that if someone posted a story about a Hummer running over a speedbump, it was morphed into a "It's Wagoner's fault because GM's been bleeding red ink for 15 years"[i] tirade (I recall GM having some pretty fat years along the way, too).



Want to disagree with him?

You're blind. You're a GM fool. You've been brainwashed.

Hell, he even called Evok "[i]closed minded" of all things!

He managed to finally get himself banished from CZ28.com's, not a easy feat since I can name only 6 people who succeded in doing that over the past 4 years out of the 100 or so who post on the future vehicles community.



Bottom line is this. Rick Wagoner inherited a sh*tstorm. There was very little money for cars, and the people the board brought in to run GM in the 90s all came from Proctor & Gamble, and other industries that were heavy in marketing and the bottom line, and light on product. What you got was spending on high profit vehicles (like Cadillac, trucks, and SUVs) and very little on cars (the "W" chassis would have been replaced years ago). Things are starting to happen now, and Wagoner is making all the cuts needed to finance this. He's also put his neck on the line by assuming responsibility for GM-North America, effectively eliminating the ability for "gatekeepers" & "the finance guys" to thwart new product & quality.

A company as big and bureacratic as GM, where the Board of Directors and the Product Planning Comittee holds far more power than any one individual isn't going to change in 1, 2, or even 4 years. Quality vehicles are the key at least as much as the sales side.

Proof? Saturn has the best sales experience of any carmaker, foreign or domestic. Honda and Toyota tend to have the worse. Which one is in the crapper in sales and which 2 are doing extremely well?


Thanks for reading.

[Guest buickman]

I haven't read through the entire 7 pages, and I'm not patient enough tonight to rebut each and every point Buickman makes in these pages, and I don't need to since Evok is holding his own.

But I WILL point out that Buickman has a personal vendetta against Rick Wagoner. His rants, repetitive insults, and the silly anti-Wagoner rhetoric that pops up almost daily on his newsletters (which prompted me to remove myself from his mailing lists after awhile) is simply ridiculous.

I don't work for GM, I'm not on GM's payroll, and I have a reputation for taking any maker to task (especially GM) when I feel they are doing something stupid or at least questionable. However, GM knows what it's problem is, Wagnoer knows what the problem is, and I'm convinced they are well underway to fixing it.
1st of all, it typically takes 5 years for a new car to work through the development system. Most all new cars arriving in showrooms today were started in 2000. GM CEO at the time was Ron Zarella. This is the guy who said in an interview after he was demoted and returned to Boush & Loumb (he had no experience in the car industry, mind you) that his biggest regret was not putting even more resources into trucks and SUVs. This is despite the fact he cancelled Holden based RWD Buicks, the 5th gen F-body, and alot of money that would typically be used to update existing cars!

Wagoner took over in 2001, brought in Lutz and additional talent in 2002 & 2003 (including Brian Nesbitt from Chrysler, who went to Chevrolet & is now heading GM Europe design).  He has been putting the best people in the right spots (like Ed Welburn who replaced Wayne Cherry at design), and created a chairmainship level world product position and moved Bob Lutz into it.

GM is eliminating overlap. The Solstice was more of a tool to find ways to streamline development than to create a new entry (plus, it's ALOT cheaper than advertising (it cost about the same as 1 month's advertising for Pontiac).

Wagoner, with a background in finance, is doing the opposite of what GM did when it was in trouble in the early 90s. It's cutting to invest MORE into product development (GM in the early 90s cut product to shore up finance, and was stuck with old cars that melted any perception that might have existed of GM cars being new or up to date).

Cars that were developed completely under Wagoner start poping up next year, and because of streamlining that's gone on at GM over the past few years, the 1st "no excuse" cars will show up in 2007, just as Evok said.

Buickman should know this, but for some reason he ignores these facts.
Instead, you are beaten to death about how Wagoner (even back to 1990, if you want to believe that) has been destroying GM piece by piece. All the other GM CEOs had nothing to do with anything bad, but now that Wagoner is CEO, he's even more at fault?

Buickman has actually come out and said on another site (and likely this one as well) that "Product is NOT the problem". To hear him tell it, GM is wasting billions of dollars developing new cars instead of using HIS plan which not only would cost GM nothing, but would magically fix ALL GM's problems. All he asks for is "fair" compensation.
Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, a magicial, a nuclear engineer or even a room tempreature IQ to see what's going on here. He even on a early page of this thread comes out and says it!

The guy went to GM to sell his plan as the best thing since bretheable oxygen and Rick Wagoner blew him off, and instead of compromising he's retaliating!

Being the lifelong salesman he is, Buickman honestly believes in what he's selling and that he can sell anything to anybody. The issue is never WHAT you are selling, if it's right for what's needed, or the other person's point of view or shortcomings people see... because it's all about the "sale".
Like alot of people here, I saw alot of merit in his plans. I wrote and told him that some of his ideas are good. Tt's no where near something that's going to "SAVE" GM, but it's something that combined with GM's upcoming new products, could improve the buying experience and salespeople's knowledge and enthusiasm for the brands they are selling. Other people offered input.

However, instead of a constructive give and take, there was a constant stream of anti-Wagoner nonsense and a constant stream of "My plan is the ONLY way GM is going to recover".

Finally, those who supported him over at CZ28 started getting sick of him, and turned against him. Even people who DIDN'T like Wagoner started feeling sorry for him because of Buickman's constant barrage. It got so bad that if someone posted a story about a Hummer running over a speedbump, it was morphed into a "It's Wagoner's fault because GM's been bleeding red ink for 15 years"[i] tirade (I recall GM having some pretty fat years along the way, too).
Want to disagree with him?

You're blind. You're a GM fool. You've been brainwashed.

Hell, he even called Evok "[i]closed minded" of all things!

He managed to finally get himself banished from CZ28.com's, not a easy feat since I can name only 6 people who succeded in doing that over the past 4 years out of the 100 or so who post on the future vehicles community.
Bottom line is this. Rick Wagoner inherited a sh*tstorm. There was very little money for cars, and the people the board brought in to run GM in the 90s all came from Proctor & Gamble, and other industries that were heavy in marketing and the bottom line, and light on product. What you got was spending on high profit vehicles (like Cadillac, trucks, and SUVs) and very little on cars (the "W" chassis would have been replaced years ago). Things are starting to happen now, and Wagoner is making all the cuts needed to finance this. He's also put his neck on the line by assuming responsibility for GM-North America, effectively eliminating the ability for "gatekeepers" & "the finance guys" to thwart new product & quality.

A company as big and bureacratic as GM, where the Board of Directors and the Product Planning Comittee holds far more power than any one individual isn't going to change in 1, 2, or even 4 years. Quality vehicles are the key at least as much as the sales side.

Proof? Saturn has the best sales experience of any carmaker, foreign or domestic. Honda and Toyota tend to have the worse. Which one is in the crapper in sales and which 2 are doing extremely well?
Thanks for reading.

[post="58898"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You're misinformed, misquoting, and furthermore flat wrong. Are you intentionally lying or really that stupid?
I only sought money if it worked. Zarrella was never CEO. Wagoner has been for a decade. He stole from GM under guise of FIat. He is bribing the union, he can't figure out how to sell cars. He brought in Girsky for what? He let Lovejoy, Smith and LaNeve lose ten points of share, got crucified in the capital markets, blew long term debt off the scales, lost over $50 Billion in shareholder value and you defend the guy? He shouldn't just be thrown out, he should be tarred and feathered. Get off my back dude and get some better information and a life to go with it. You're just a trouble maker who doesn't know crap about the car business. No more time for bozos like you. Edited December 15, 2005 by buickman

[Croc]

You're misinformed, misquoting, and furthermore flat wrong. Are you intentionally lying or really that stupid?
I only sought money if it worked. Zarrella was never CEO. Wagoner has been for a decade. He stole from GM under guise of FIat. He is bribing the union, he can't figure out how to sell cars. He brought in Girsky for what? He let Lovejoy, Smith and LaNeve lose ten points of share, got crucified in the capital markets, blew long term debt off the scales, lost over $50 Billion in shareholder value and you defend the guy? He shouldn't just be thrown out, he should be tarred and feathered. Get off my back dude and get some better information and a life to go with it. You're just a trouble maker who doesn't know crap about the car business. No more time for bozos like you.

[post="58902"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:rolleyes:

[Cory Wolfe]

To describe Buickman:

Egosim
e-go-ism, n. 1) the tendency to consider only oneself and one's own interests; selfishness. 2) egotism; conceit. --egoist, n. --egoistic, egoistical, adj. --egoistically, adv.

Egomania
e-go-ma-ni-a, n. abnormally excessive egotism. --egomaniac, n.

Egotism
e-go-tism, n. 1) constant, excessive reference to oneself in speaking or writing. 2) self-conceit. 3) selfishness: see also egoism; egotism is generally considered the more appropriate term. --egotist, n. --egotisitc, egotistical, adj. --egotistically, adv.

--and--

Insane
in-sane, adj. 1) not sane; mentally ill or deranged; mad; crazy. 2) of or for insane people: as, an insane asylum. 3) very foolish; senseless. --the insane, insane people. --insanely, adv. --insaneness, n.

Insanity
in-san-i-ty, n. 1) the state of being insane; mental illness or derangement: a term used formally in law but not in psychiatry. 2) great folly; extreme senselessness. Edited December 15, 2005 by blackviper8891

[turbo200]

Being the lifelong salesman he is, Buickman honestly believes in what he's selling and that he can sell anything to anybody. The issue is never WHAT you are selling, if it's right for what's needed, or the other person's point of view or shortcomings people see... because it's all about the "sale".

[post="58898"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thank you for the incredible read, guionM. All your points always make sense to me, and are delivered in an explanatory, respectful fashion we can all dig with. I'm especially passionate by this point, it matters much to me what product is being sold, and what the needs are of the people and if they're being satisfied. All in all, a sound judgement call...

[Guest buickman]

Thank you for the incredible read, guionM. All your points always make sense to me, and are delivered in an explanatory, respectful fashion we can all dig with. I'm especially passionate by this point, it matters much to me what product is being sold, and what the needs are of the people and if they're being satisfied. All in all, a sound judgement call...

[post="58960"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Rick Wagoner has driven GM to the brink of bankruptcy. Wall Street knows it but certain "experts" here don't see the loss of over $50,000,000,000 in value as any issue. Soon GMAC will be gone, a prediction I made here as well. There's no rationalizing with blind followers and this discussion has become repetitive. Actually, I was done with this thread until a couple fools felt the need to take parting shots. Thanks to the few of you with more than half a brain.

[evok]

BM: "You're misinformed, misquoting, and furthermore flat wrong. Are you intentionally lying or really that stupid?" I don't need to respond to that. Your record on the boards is proof of that. BM: I only sought money if it worked. That is a flat out lie and fabrication. In your interview with Autoline, you stated you wanted $100,000 as compensation up front, plus 1,000,000 for each market share point increase. BM: Zarrella was never CEO. Wagoner has been for a decade. That is correct, Zarella was VP of NA not CEO but, Wagoner was named CEO June 1, 2000 not a decade ago. BM: He stole from GM under guise of FIat. Jack Smith initiated that deal, under his alliance initiative. In the end and there is some disagreement as to the merits of the Fiat alliance and subsequent break up, but you choose mis-appropriate words for a questionable deal in hindsight. BM: He is bribing the union, he can't figure out how to sell cars. He brought in Girsky for what? He let Lovejoy, Smith and LaNeve lose ten points of share, got crucified in the capital markets, blew long term debt off the scales, lost over $50 Billion in shareholder value and you defend the guy? He shouldn't just be thrown out, he should be tarred and feathered. Just more BM ramblings from BM. Thoughts that lack focus and insight and the continuing rants with no clear message other than to show the misguided folly of the author. BM: Get off my back dude and get some better information and a life to go with it. You're just a trouble maker who doesn't know crap about the car business. No more time for bozos like you. Well, well, many of us have been saying the same of you for months now. It is appearing that the strain of constant criticism on message boards is taking a toll on your mental health. It still amazes me that someone with your retail experience could have been an asset to many of us on the boards, but instead you continue to be a cancer, not only to the boards but probably to GM in wasting their resourses in whatever you are doing to them behind the scenes that you are not making public to us.

[evok]

BM: Rick Wagoner has driven GM to the brink of bankruptcy. Wall Street knows it but certain "experts" here don't see the loss of over $50,000,000,000 in value as any issue. GM is no nearer to banruptcy than you are to ever seeing your 100,000 grand from GM or your Return to Greatness implemented. BM: Soon GMAC will be gone, a prediction I made here as well. More misinformed opinion. There are better people on this board that have already explained what might actually happen, and there may be more positives in a potential spin off than minuses. GMAC is a lot bigger than car loans my misinformed friend. BM: There's no rationalizing with blind followers and this discussion has become repetitive. The Jim Jones thing is so 1970's. No BM Kool Aide for me. BM: Actually, I was done with this thread until a couple fools felt the need to take parting shots. Again too bad, you could have been an asset to the boards. BM: Thanks to the few of you with more than half a brain. Your welcome. I have something in common with Ayan Rand, we are both *NT*. PS BM, A is not always A. Some of us have actually moved on from that philosophy. Edited December 15, 2005 by evok

[RichW5]

Tatoo stood on the runway, waiting for the takeoff of "The Plan". The huge engines of "marketing" were racing at full throttle, eager to get "The Plan" off the ground. Buickman released the brakes and "The Plan" raced down the runway, at breakneck speed. At takeoff, Buickman pulled back on the wheel and "The Plan' left the ground......up 100 feet......then 200 feet, then 300. All of a sudden "The Plan" broke up in the air and crashed to the ground, lying there in a pile of ashes. The National Transportation and Safety Administration (NTSA) investigators came out and within minutes had determined that "The Plan" had failed because there was no substance to "The Plan". Marketing couldn't hold "The Plan" together because it was based on selling less than great product. The secret to the future sucess of GM, Ford and Chrysler must be better product. That product must be better than the product of the competition. Only then, can "marketing" take off!

[The O.C.]

Just becuase a certain segment of the market likes the new cadillacs with canvas fake convertible roofs does not mean a dealer should not offer the profitable service.  This only makes everyone money and GM another vehicle sold.

[post="58855"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

<read sarcasm> ".....but I'm a 35-year old male, and my friends don't put SimCons on their BMWs......only "old" people drive cars with SimCons (simulated convertible top)....so Cadillac's must be for "old" people. I think I'll pass on that CTS or STS....'cause I'm not old and gaudy......."

Sarcasm? YES.....but there's alot of truth in that statement. Those kinds of dealer add-ons do nothing but RUIN the decent reputation that Cadillac worked SO hard to build....

There's plenty of other ways to earn profit from dealer after-sales products without resorting to Vogue tires, SimCons, and gaudy paint-stripe applications smacked all over your new CTSs and STSs.

[thegriffon]

Simplistic, but ultimately correct. Only a salesman would think marketing plans could "fix" GM. There's a lot wrong with GM's PR and marketing as Autoextremist regularly points out, but marketing is like government—at best good marketing will effectively educate about virtues of the company and it's product, but it can never be the companies only virtue. Bad marketing can sink a company, but good marketing can not save it unless everything else is running just as well. Good product and a sound financial structure though can overcome anything but the most counter-productive marketing.

BM has become a bitter, vindictive idealogue, and has lost focus on GM's real problems. No matter how good the marketing, no matter how good the product, Wagonewr and co have to overcome decades of bad management and structural problems. Jobs in NA would still have to go, plants would have to close. GMAC needs to be cut free.

As for losing their no1 position, it appears Toyota will soon have more capacity than GM, but that is not going to translate automatically into more sales. If GM has too much capacity, where does that leave Toyota? North American commentators are fond of saying Hyundai is set to be the next Toyota, yet there is another Korean automaker also on the way up, and challenging Toyota in global markets such as Latin America, Africa, Europe and Asia—GM Daewoo under the Chevrolet brand.

BM complains that GM can't cut it's way to growth, and that's right, but while GM cuts costs and closes under-used plants in the US it is increasing development spending on fewer products and expanding in growth markets such as Eastern Europe, China and India. International sales are already more important to GM than North America, in total and for each brand except Pontiac and GMC (if you count Saturn=Opel). This is a strategy for growth, and it's working. Chevrolet's international sales growth makes Toyota's US gains look anemic.

[97regalGS]

can we add a poll to this thread to see how many more times BM comes back for one last comment.

[Guest buickman]

can we add a poll to this thread to see how many more times BM comes back for one last comment.

[post="59095"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

From www.thetruthaboutcars.com

According to Rabid Rick Wagoner, terminating his employment would only slow down GM's recovery: "When you bring in a lot of new people, you bring in a lot of change and people just sort of sit there and try to figure out what to do." As opposed to what? Keeping the same old people and making no changes so that people can sort of sit there and watch the world’s largest automaker go bankrupt? Rick’s comment appeared in AutoWeek immediately after Standard & Poor’s rating service downgraded GM’s credit rating to “B”, some five steps below investment grade, with a negative outlook. Clearly, Wagoner is to leadership what penguins are to civil engineering.

Like any clueless corporate alpha, Rabid Rick wants us to believe that everything’s under control. Indeed, he’s instructed PR flack Gina Proia to tell the world that GM has “an aggressive and well thought-out strategy to turn around our North American business.” Apparently, this comprehensive plan comes complete with quantifiable goals, implementation dates and, well, everything Rick’s mob needs to save GM’s from a Valentine’s Day Massacre. Only AutoWeek reports that Rabid Rick “prefers to keep it private.” In fact, GM’s would-be savior “declined to predict whether GM's North American automotive operations could break even next year.” [NB: “could” not “would.”]

News reports recently revealed that The General’s CEO has negotiated a deal with GM’s Board of Bystanders that makes his multi-million dollar pension fund bankruptcy-proof. Not only is that a boneheaded move relative to GM’s negotiations with the UAW (which include pension liabilities and contributions), but it betrays Rabid Rick's stunning lack of confidence in his own talents. It's an opinion that's increasingly easy to share. Edited December 15, 2005 by buickman

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I know I'm not the only one unimpressed by GM's decision to wait till 2005 to increase product spending by 1 billion. I know the upcoming times at GM are looking good, but I can't help but complain in my mind about the times that came before this, and what could have been done to avoid all this. Wagoner went through this once before in 1992. Certainly, there had to be lessons learned there, there had to be a catalyst for money-making years again. I just don't understand how it could taka so long to figure out a formula that seems so easy to crack, to me at least. Give the customer what they want. What do they want? Classy, high quality products that set standards for driveability, but first and foremost are fun and desirable to own. Give us what we want. Good cars that make us feel good to be in them and be seen in them. I just don't get, and never will understand, why it has taken so long to understand that. And I will never understand the conservative policies the blue suits at all companies have on design and styling. Wasn't there somehting called the Design Golden Age where everybody fanaticized over cars? Wasn't GM the king of this era, producing cars people today covet and spend millions to own and restore. What's so hard to understand about people liking good design?

[post="57214"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Excellent post!

And, speaking from a personal standpoint; I love my Camaros and I've spent a lot of money restoring them over many years. The offerings from GM today, DESPITE my being an avid GM enthusiast do not create that same excitement fo me.

If GM can get the fundamentals right, then GM will be succesful again. They must 1) Invest in BETTER technology. Being 'good enough' isn't enough anymore. This "the customer doesn't care what powers the car, as long as it goes" attitude concerning the OHV V6's is a prime example. yes, the customer may not care about the technicalities of the engine. BUT, the people who influence the customers decision to buy the car (the media) DO. And, even if the customer doesn't care about the technical aspect of the car, they still care A LOT about numbers, such as horsepower and fuel mileage. I've always been a fan of OHV motors and I still am, especially GM V8's. But class leading performance is sorely needed for GM right now and if they can't get the OHV technology to be class leading then it's time to change. 2) Research and understand image and why people are attracted to certain cars. GM has failed miserably at both understanding AND marketing MOST of their cars in relation to their prospective buyer. The DTS, for example, should've been sent Buicks way and Cadillac should be working on a sigma based replacement to compete with the euros instead. I know Cadillac needed to retain the sales and that alone might make my point null and void. But the characteristics and market for the DTS are more as a premium Buick. 3) GM must give us appealing, great designs. Design sells, period. That's especially true in this day in age where one can buy a $9000 Aveo that'll run just as long as a 60,000 Mercedes. As Peter Delorenzo would say; design is going to increasingly become the make it or break it element of this business now that reliability is on par, technology has been embraced and performance is expected, not optional.

To get to Wagoner's office visitors first pass through a waiting room with a display of miniature cars tracing the highlights of GM's history. Perhaps as a daily reminder to Wagoner of what could be, the display includes a trio of Oldsmobiles, the division shuttered to help stop the bleeding the last time GM got in a financial bind in the early '90s.

As it should.... Oldsmobile's death SHOULD be avenged... Oh and, it's news to me that 1) GM was hemoraging cash when Oldsmobile was phased out and 2) Oldsmobile was phased out in the early 90's.... This author needs to get his facts straight.

[turbo200]

hehe, thanks FOG

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I am sorry you feel that way.  When 6 months ago, I analysed each and every point of the Return to Greatness and showed much like tannersoc/The O.C. the flaws in the plan.  6 months later, the same plan is being tauted as what will solve the problems at GM.  Sorry the boards have been erased so I could link to that analysis. Or at the time, the lack of response from its author.

It would have been one thing if the analysis that many of us shared was incorporated into the plan but that has not happened, even though the author posted countless times he was going to incorporate these discussion.  A discussion that is not moving forward is a dead discussion. 

The repeated call to fire Wagoner is a mute point, because there is a plan in place.  Do you or anyone really think the team running GM does not know what they have to do to succeed.  GM is saddled with 30 years of mistakes that can not be overcome with a simple 20 Point plan that is focused on people that are eligible for GM S pricing already and not the real systemic problems the company faces.

Currently, GM is getting beat up in the press, and on the surface it does not look good, but as I have stated countless times, GM's leadership have been making the systemic changes that will result in a better company.  The real test if GM will succeed is with the product once that arrives. 

And I know many people were hoping for a quicker turn around on the product side with Lutz on board.  But, it is too bad that Lutz came in at a time when most of the product that was released under his watch so far was too far along for him to throw out and start from scratch.  On top of that, GM would have had to realign their plant rollout to any candance changes by Lutz.  One of the many reasons the first round of zeta were axed.

Though GM as organization did make mistakes, GM is still a far better company than they were 5 years ago.

As an organization, they centralized all of NA operations ie purchasing, manufacturing, engineering and marketing and are in the process of consolodating globally.  Vehicles will be able to be designed at any of their locations in the world based upon availablity of resourses and then the designed shipped to the appropriate build center just months before launch.

Their NA manufacturing foot print continues to be consolodated where they are able to build more with less.  Modular assembly, flexible body shop, and assembly line.  GM can/will build it faster with less people on a smaller foot print and adjust their product mix based upon demand.  GM's UAW head count reductions are a reflection of this.

GM DAT has been a huge success, not only because of their over night growth in SE Asia, but the growth of the the Chevy brand in Europe and not to mention GMs continued growth in China.  GM has over taken VW in China as the number 1 producer.  GM DAT went from producing app 500k/yr at the time of the purchase to close to a million today.

There has been significant progress in Europe, breaking down the old Opel organization (1999 Lou Hughes drama), and getting GME diesel powertrains.  GM Europe faced many of the same short falls GM NA had, but the benifit of the reorg is finially taking hold with increase in market share and increased productivity.

GM has begun to address the hardest problem they have.  Their labor and legacy costs in the US.  And because this is so politically sensitive, I would not expect GM to show a significant profit if at all until sometime in 2007 at the earliest.

They already have an agreement as of early fall with the UAW on addressing their health care cost with their retirees.  30,000 more over the next two years will be placed into that system.  GM will also benefit from the new prescription drug coverage in Medicare.

This will be used as a holdover until the 2007 labor contract get renegotiated.  That will be the last major structural issue they have on the table.  Does anyone not think, the Delphi bankrupcy does not play into this saga.  The end of the jobs bank, health care coverage they pay into, 401k savings accounts.  After that contract is sign, GM will be close to a level playing field with the transplants from Europe and Asia as far as labor goes.

By that time, a good portion of GM product line up should be revamped under Lutz.

I can go on but I would say GM's leadership are addressing the serious issues they have.  Now, the product has to continue to be right.  GM certainly is increasing their capital investment in new product and powertrains as well.  Releases for NA over the next year or so:

Complete new highly profitable 900 Utilities.

Complete new pick up.

3 new lambda utilites.

Saturn Aura

All the above represent app 1.5 million vehicles.  That is larger than Nissan and as big a Honda in NA.

It takes years to fix 30 years of blunders, but GM is on the cusp of finially doing just that.  There will be no excuses after 2007.  GM's Return To Greatness has just been outlined.  Rick Wagoner and Team already wrote it.

[post="57440"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Another great post... And one that inspires a lot of confidence.

[97regalGS]

can we add a poll to this thread to see how many more times BM comes back for one last comment.

[post="59095"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BM Return count - 1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The best marketing is seeing a successful product drive past you.  I know I smile everytime I see a Mustang pass me, or CTS or Chrysler 300, or Prius or Escalade.

Anybody see a trend?

[post="58058"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree and disagree...

Marketing is still a HUGE factor and one that GM can't do effectively IMO. But, I agree that, in some instances, it is blatantly obvious that certain cars are hits.

But, why would you smile at a Prius? Why is the Camry such a huge hit? What about the Silverado or Tahoe with their 'cheap' interiors and 'huge' panel gaps.

I think the simple answer is marketing at it's core and it's influence through the media. the Prius is popular not because of the product nessecerily, but because of the image associated with it which has been built by pop culture (favorable media coverage) and marketing. The Camry, successful why? because of it's reputation which has been built partially by product but also by a VERY clear message that it is an 'everymans' car that gets you safely from point A to point B. I could go on and on....

The singular point of it all though, IMO, is that these cars are successful partially (The other part being the product itself) BECAUSE the consumer is WELL INFORMED about WHAT they are WHY they should buy them and HOW they (meaning the buyer) will be perceived for the purchase. GM's models and divisions NEED this identity built for them before they can ever hope to be successful.

[G. David Felt]

<read sarcasm>  ".....but I'm a 35-year old male, and my friends don't put SimCons on their BMWs......only "old" people drive cars with SimCons (simulated convertible top)....so Cadillac's must be for "old" people.  I think I'll pass on that CTS or STS....'cause I'm not old and gaudy......."

Sarcasm?  YES.....but there's alot of truth in that statement.  Those kinds of dealer add-ons do nothing but RUIN the decent reputation that Cadillac worked SO hard to build....

There's plenty of other ways to earn profit from dealer after-sales products without resorting to Vogue tires, SimCons, and gaudy paint-stripe applications smacked all over your new CTSs and STSs.

[post="59031"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:lol: You crack me up, here on the west coast I have not seen any caddy with a fake convertible top. Yet when I travel to the areas that have a high % of black people, you see many of these cars on Caddy, Chrysler 300 etc. This is not about saying it turns off young people. It is understanding that every section of the US has differant market requirements. There are those that think the BMW garbage is terrible and would love to put on a softtop for the look.

There is nothing wrong with delivering what specific market segments want. If you can not see past what others like and accept them, then you are not able to see the bigger picture. Marketing is wasted on people like you who can not accept variety. This does not take down Caddy. I myself do not like the fake softtop, yet I own a CTS and am in the 30's crowd. :P

[turbo200]

I agree and disagree...

Marketing is still a HUGE factor and one that GM can't do effectively IMO. But, I agree that, in some instances, it is blatantly obvious that certain cars are hits.

[post="59120"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The simplest and most effective marketing is a successful product that rolls by. It becomes a million times more effective when the design is gotta have, when it moves your heart to NEED it.

The Solstice is the best marketing Pontiac has had in all the years I've been alive, except perhaps the impact of the Firebird in '93, though that was short-lived as the design was becoming accepted as less and less modern. Solstice is driving buyers in that Pontiac couldn't ever achieve with the current products. Solstice will get people into Pontiac showrooms for years, and it will help to get people looking at Pontiacs again.

[carguy22]

:blink: The Problem is that GM's cars are much better than the predecessors and are equal too the their competitors, but not home runs. In the future every new car has to be a home run or GM stands no chnace of getting profitable. GM also has a marketing problem their need to get the message across that their cars a competitive. GM needs to stop the fire sales as long as they keep offring these incentives at this pace the buying public is never going to think of GM as serious competitors. GM need to do a better job of markting I think that if they have better marketing strategies it would with sells in the near future and might help them get back to profitablity. In regards to Rick Wagoner I am giving him the benfit of the doubt but, he needs to step and show that he is the right man for the job. He needs to come and say the GM will be profitable in however many years and if we are not I will resign. I think his critics are seeing that he is not willing to do whatever it takes to fix GM. He needs to make it clear that GM will be become great again. Until he believes it( ( I believe that he doesn't have the leadership or ego to beleive in it.) the rest of of the world won't believe. He doesn't show the same leadership quality as Lutz, Iaccoa or Henry Ford II. Wagoner needs to the "Six Men who Built the Modern Auto Industry.

[guionM]

Tatoo stood on the runway, waiting for the takeoff of "The Plan".

The huge engines of "marketing" were racing at full throttle, eager to get "The Plan" off the ground. Buickman released the brakes and "The Plan" raced down the runway, at breakneck speed. At takeoff, Buickman pulled back on the wheel and "The Plan' left the ground......up 100 feet......then 200 feet, then 300.

All of a sudden "The Plan" broke up in the air and crashed to the ground, lying there in a pile of ashes.

The National Transportation and Safety Administration (NTSA) investigators came out and within minutes had determined that "The Plan" had failed because there was no substance to "The Plan". Marketing couldn't hold "The Plan" together because it was based on selling less than great product.

The secret to the future sucess of GM, Ford and Chrysler must be better product.
That product must be better than the product of the competition. Only then, can "marketing" take off!

[post="59023"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That is so funny...... and so true! :lol:

:blink: The Problem is that GM's cars are much better than the predecessors and are equal too the their competitors, but not home runs. In the future every new car has to be a home run or GM stands no chnace of getting profitable. GM also has a marketing problem their need to get the message across that their cars a competitive.

GM needs to stop the fire sales as long as they keep offring these incentives at this pace the buying public is never going to think of GM as serious competitors. GM need to do a better job of markting I think that if they have better marketing strategies it would with sells in the near future and might help them get back to profitablity.

In regards to Rick Wagoner I am giving him the benfit of the doubt but, he needs to step and show that he is the right man for the job. He needs to come and say the GM will be profitable in however many years and if we are not I will resign. I think his critics are seeing that he is not willing to do whatever it takes to fix GM. He needs to make it clear that GM will be become great again. Until he believes it( ( I believe that he doesn't have the leadership or ego to beleive in it.) the rest of of the world won't believe. He doesn't show the same leadership quality as Lutz, Iaccoa or Henry Ford II. Wagoner needs to the "Six Men who Built the Modern Auto Industry.

[post="59227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good points all around.

[Guest buickman]

That is so funny...... and so true! :lol:
Good points all around.

[post="59341"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

A final thought to the doubting Thomas's on board. You're little inconsequential corner of the world is so lacking in relevance that having the privelege of no longer conversing with you complete idiots shall be to my extreme pleasure. To those rational, awake contributors, please visit www.GeneralWatch.com or email [email protected].

[Croc]

A final thought to the doubting Thomas's on board. You're little inconsequential corner of the world is so lacking in relevance that having the privelege of no longer conversing with you complete idiots shall be to my extreme pleasure. To those rational, awake contributors, please visit www.GeneralWatch.com or email [email protected].

[post="59497"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, if no longer conversing with us (which you never really did anyway) gives you such "extreme pleasure" then why wait so long to experience said pleasure? Why not end the "conversation" with the last post? Or the one before that?

Ohhhh, I get it...you are putting our site down, calling our members stupid and generally acting like you were doing us some kind of favor by talking to us for so long all as a feeble attempt to make yourself feel better in one of the most upfront rejects of your so-called "plan" to date? Heh...have fun trying to sell that to yourself, since C&G isn't really interested in buying your bullsh!t, no matter how much marketing you use!

:CG_all:

[turbo200]

Wow, it only took us [checks his watch] hmmm.....two months to get rid of him? How long did he last at CZ28? Clearly, we're the better .........somebody help me here I don't know quite what we would be called. :lol: Boy, tired out Buickman, that's a pretty big achievement. I didn't think it would happen, and not this way either. Basically throwing the towel in, wow I guess the sales pitch is fallible. :rolleyes: :) Edited December 16, 2005 by turbo200

[97regalGS]

A final thought to the doubting Thomas's on board. You're little inconsequential corner of the world is so lacking in relevance that having the privelege of no longer conversing with you complete idiots shall be to my extreme pleasure. To those rational, awake contributors, please visit www.GeneralWatch.com or email [email protected].

[post="59497"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BM return count = 2

and with such class I might add!!!

[Brandon Lutz]

A final thought to the doubting Thomas's on board. You're little inconsequential corner of the world is so lacking in relevance that having the privelege of no longer conversing with you complete idiots shall be to my extreme pleasure. To those rational, awake contributors, please visit www.GeneralWatch.com or email [email protected].
*

Classy. Very classy.

Lamence terms: 'You who live in the real world cannot possibly understand the relativity of my fantasy land where I reign supreme. You did not drink the kool aid so now I must go.

To pull a BM *sounds painful I know*

Who is Jim Jones?

[Flybrian]

A final thought to the doubting Thomas's on board. You're little inconsequential corner of the world is so lacking in relevance that having the privelege of no longer conversing with you complete idiots shall be to my extreme pleasure.

[post="59497"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

A final thought to Buickman.











You hear that?












Listen closely...












Hear it?










Its the sound of everyone here really caring.

Its become clear to the general membership and the administration that you're not here to participate in a cohesive and meaningful discussion of General Motors. Rather, you're here for reasons of personal agrandizement and you're doing it in a way that infuriates members.

Its clear you have your own site since you plug it every other post, so why not be content to advertise there? Instead of debating, you try to shove your viewpoint in everyone's face, ignore reasonable questions, and rebutt criticisms with personal insults. This is not why people come to this site and your actions are contrary to what we're about.

So, since you're more interest in your own agenda and self-promotion, I ask that you don't return here. You resigned yourself voluntarily, so I don't expect you to return.

Your soapbox is hereby removed.

[G. David Felt]

:P Now it would be funny to take his 20 Point agenda, Add in realworld additions that make some of his points valid and then post it on his site. :lol: