GM Enters New Turf With Premium Compact Buick

[67impss]

The problem time is running out for the Zeta as it is. Time to focus on the Alpha.

We could have 6 yrs of Caprice's before they shut down and maybe mce also in that time frame. I don't get it how long do you need it to be built to be worthwhile?

It's built as a Chevy for the mideast you put the US emissionsin it work with the Chevy/Holden/Pontiac/HSV interiors & we get a Caprice in like 3-6 months. If it makes $ for Holden it can make $ for GMNA also because development's paid for part of old GM's debt.

[Drew Dowdell]

The problem is that GM always finds a way to fail to utilize what they have, especially when it is good.

Why should Alpha be any different?

Zeta was late to market yes, but as is, it is still good to 2015.

I sure hope it stays around and the next gen merges with the aging Sigma, Alpha just won't be big enough for everything.

What is aging about the Sigma? The most recent iteration is forcing Jags and Bimmers to look at narrow vertical tail lamps. What more do you want from it?

[Camino LS6]

What is aging about the Sigma? The most recent iteration is forcing Jags and Bimmers to look at narrow vertical tail lamps. What more do you want from it?

Broader utilization for the next gen.

[pow]

Broader utilization for the next gen.

I've always wondered why the previous-gen CTS couldn't have been sold as a midsize Pontiac. Chrysler turned an old E-class into a new 300, VW turned an old A4 into the SEAT Exeo. Give it different skin, and bam, you've got old "high value" Sigma and state-of-the-art "new" Sigma.

[Camino LS6]

I've always wondered why the previous-gen CTS couldn't have been sold as a midsize Pontiac. Chrysler turned an old E-class into a new 300, VW turned an old A4 into the SEAT Exeo. Give it different skin, and bam, you've got old "high value" Sigma and state-of-the-art "new" Sigma.

GM politics.

Caddy is a sacred cow.

[hyperv6]

We could have 6 yrs of Caprice's before they shut down and maybe mce also in that time frame. I don't get it how long do you need it to be built to be worthwhile?

It's built as a Chevy for the mideast you put the US emissionsin it work with the Chevy/Holden/Pontiac/HSV interiors & we get a Caprice in like 3-6 months. If it makes $ for Holden it can make $ for GMNA also because development's paid for part of old GM's debt.

Like I have said I would love this car but I also look at the big picture vs the single model some look at. I too have done tha same but once you step back there is an argument not to bring it here.

I don't think it is as simple to just bring it here in 3-6 months. The Chevy nose is not crash tested here. Itakes time to set this up and run it through the goverment test. Once it passes if it even passes as it is then the rest of the work to get the importing back on line the product info printed. Marketing plans set ETC. I think it would take about a year at the earliest. That puts you into the 2011 models.

Then are they still only going to be able to import the 40,000 units at best. What is the exchange rate at the time? Are the slow sales in the market going to leave this on dealer lots. While everyone says the G8 was selling great there are still many on dealer lots in my area. I can still get one for a sweet deal.

Also if you were going to bring it in would you make it offical before the G8's are sold out?

If gas prices go back up as they are known to do how would that effect sales.

After all this you have to worry about convincing the American public you have changed but you give them another V8 car that the press will use against you.

[hyperv6]

I have never seen ANY ad for the G8. I have seen Astra's parked in shopping malls for drawings though.

I have seen them in print and how could you have missed the G8 on the Hot Wheels track TV spot.

Drawing in the mall is more than I ever saw for the Astra.

[67impss]

Like I have said I would love this car but I also look at the big picture vs the single model some look at. I too have done tha same but once you step back there is an argument not to bring it here.

I don't think it is as simple to just bring it here in 3-6 months. The Chevy nose is not crash tested here. Itakes time to set this up and run it through the goverment test. Once it passes if it even passes as it is then the rest of the work to get the importing back on line the product info printed. Marketing plans set ETC. I think it would take about a year at the earliest. That puts you into the 2011 models.

Then are they still only going to be able to import the 40,000 units at best. What is the exchange rate at the time? Are the slow sales in the market going to leave this on dealer lots. While everyone says the G8 was selling great there are still many on dealer lots in my area. I can still get one for a sweet deal.

Also if you were going to bring it in would you make it offical before the G8's are sold out?

If gas prices go back up as they are known to do how would that effect sales.

After all this you have to worry about convincing the American public you have changed but you give them another V8 car that the press will use against you.

1.) If Holden does things like GMNA then the "bumper" is a plastic egg crate under the urathane facsa, but the DOT may be that anal to crash test a different face of urathane

2.) This Is the NEW GM so if they're that much faster & leaner while Bob's running marketing I stick to my guns 6mo.'s max.

3.) There's room at the top for a Caprice at Chevy and this isn't a volume car. GM can make money on Chevys or Pontiacs or Buicks

4.) Even if the Caprice is a re-badged G8 the public won't see it that way only enthusiasts will.Those people will still buy it as Chevys last RWD full sized car was 1996.

5.) They do offer the V6 also.

6.)Yes Announce it now by the time G8's are gone the caprice is readyand even if the car is the same it will attract a whole other line of prospective buyers. There are many baby boomers that remember hot Chevy's of the past or want a full sized Caprice.

[PurdueGuy]

There were G8 TV spots were ther. There were G8 specific ads in magazines. The G8 was used as a pace car at the Daytona 24 Hours. But then again they were only importing 40LK or less cars. THis was a low volume deal.

Show me one ad, tv spot or place the Astra was the only car in the marketing.

Google is your friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8DtMsRO6A0

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=33913115840

Both the G8 and Astra were low volume, and neither is really that well known of by common americans. Don't forget the Astra was in Transformers 2. It wasn't without it's own little spots, it just wasn't catching on like the G8 was. I'd be curious to find out final production numbers of each model.

All this still doesn't change the fact that both cars will/would be mentioned by most of the mag reviews as "this used to be a x". You don't think people will see the similarities between the Saturn Astra and the Buick if all it gets is a grill & badge job? The new Astra looks just like the old, only with softer lines.

[Chicagoland]

" [Zeta] It's built as a Chevy for the mideast"

Where gas is pennies a gallon!!! The V8 Zeta gets 13 city, a pure hog. Get real, it is dead, and it isn't coming here. Why don't you move to Saudi then if you have to have that gas hog so bad?

Edited August 4, 2009 by Chicagoland

[Blake Noble]

" [Zeta] It's built as a Chevy for the mideast"

Where gas is pennies a gallon!!! The V8 Zeta gets 13 city, a pure hog. Get real, it is dead, and it isn't coming here. Why don't you move to Saudi then if you have to have that gas hog so bad?

Stick it in your pie hole.

[67impss]

Stick it in your pie hole.

Man that's one big Chicago Pizza Pie

[Robert Hall]

" [Zeta] It's built as a Chevy for the mideast"

Where gas is pennies a gallon!!! The V8 Zeta gets 13 city, a pure hog. Get real, it is dead, and it isn't coming here. Why don't you move to Saudi then if you have to have that gas hog so bad?

Gas is really cheap here also currently. Nothing like last summer.

[z28luvr01]

" [Zeta] It's built as a Chevy for the mideast"

Where gas is pennies a gallon!!! The V8 Zeta gets 13 city, a pure hog. Get real, it is dead, and it isn't coming here. Why don't you move to Saudi then if you have to have that gas hog so bad?

Check the MPG figures on the new LaCrosse (and all the other V6 Epsilon cars) that supposedly have better fuel efficidency than the gas hog Zeta. They're pretty much equal. Plus, next year the Commodore gets the 3.0L DI and 3.6L DI as engine options. Both of which should make it the most efficient V6 midsizer that GM offers.

[hyperv6]

1.) If Holden does things like GMNA then the "bumper" is a plastic egg crate under the urathane facsa, but the DOT may be that anal to crash test a different face of urathane

2.) This Is the NEW GM so if they're that much faster & leaner while Bob's running marketing I stick to my guns 6mo.'s max.

3.) There's room at the top for a Caprice at Chevy and this isn't a volume car. GM can make money on Chevys or Pontiacs or Buicks

4.) Even if the Caprice is a re-badged G8 the public won't see it that way only enthusiasts will.Those people will still buy it as Chevys last RWD full sized car was 1996.

5.) They do offer the V6 also.

6.)Yes Announce it now by the time G8's are gone the caprice is readyand even if the car is the same it will attract a whole other line of prospective buyers. There are many baby boomers that remember hot Chevy's of the past or want a full sized Caprice.

If it were only that easy.

Dot is that anal and they will want to test the fuel system too. It is considered a new model and often they do not grandfather this in. Just the EO number for the Turbo upgrade kit for my SS tok 7 months. THe kit was the same and the parts were identical. But it took form Sept to march to get the EO numberr for the 09 model. Sorry things just do not work that quick.

THe V6 does ok on as but still is under 20 MPG city.

There is alot more to this than the 6 points you have. Many we will not know outside GM.

[Z-06]

THe V6 does ok on as but still is under 20 MPG city.

Most of the mid sized cars with a V-6 are under 20 mpg city. Zeta is a full sized vehicle. Let us not go into the FWD>RWD mpg Hogwash, as I do not want bring my post where I compared this BS fallacy.

[Blake Noble]

Man that's one big Chicago Pizza Pie

Try a nasty, disgusting meat pie.

It also looks like someone's ass with a violent case of acne and third degree burns that were put out with an old shop towel.

[hyperv6]

Most of the mid sized cars with a V-6 are under 20 mpg city. Zeta is a full sized vehicle. Let us not go into the FWD>RWD mpg Hogwash, as I do not want bring my post where I compared this BS fallacy.

FWD RWD is not relivent as smaller and lighter is the future like it or not. To keep performance the cars and engines will grow smaller. This will provide cars still fun to drive and get the needed mileage they need.

The bottom line in just a few short years the 18 MPG the V6 G8 gets is not going to cut it. The only real way to improve things are with DI, Turbo small displacment engines and lighter platforms. IF it were so easy to make the present Zeta get the better needed MPG GM would not be horsing around with the Alpha. I can see them scaling the Zeta down if it is possible to make a new similar car but not the same size.

I expect some Volt tech to creap in too later on to help.

Building cars for the MPG is going to be difficult at best and will change the auto industry in ways we have never seen. The FWD conversion of the 80's will be nothing compared to what we will see. I am wondering how the light trucks will be effected.

The onw flaw most of us here have including myself is we do not have all the facts when we get upset with some of the things GM does. It is never as cut and dry as we like to make it here. We make calls with 40% of the facts when GM has to deal with them all.

[smk4565]

Just put diesels in all the Zetas and trucks, problem solved. A BMW 730 diesel gets about 10 mpg more than a CTS does, and the 7-series is a huge, heavy car. GM needs to get cars on a diet too, if they didn't weigh so much, they wouldn't need a 6 liter V8 and they wouldn't suck so much gas.

[regfootball]

Check the MPG figures on the new LaCrosse (and all the other V6 Epsilon cars) that supposedly have better fuel efficidency than the gas hog Zeta. They're pretty much equal. Plus, next year the Commodore gets the 3.0L DI and 3.6L DI as engine options. Both of which should make it the most efficient V6 midsizer that GM offers.

the whole point is gm would rather sell more 4 cyl malibu ltz's to the public. the 4 cyl is the base lacrosse and mali engine.

they want to condition us to max our car payments on that. easier and cheaper to build yet still tap our checkbooks. then CAFE is happy and gm didnt have to make a lot of expensive zetas.

the epsilon base is 4 cyl so that it what you have to compare to the base engine in the zeta. not the uplevel malibu 6 to the base zeta 6.

a base altima / fusion / camry / LEGACY is like 600 pounds lighter than a Zeta. zeta is a larger car but the govt wants us in the smaller ones now

Edited August 5, 2009 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

the whole point is gm would rather sell more 4 cyl malibu ltz's to the public. the 4 cyl is the base lacrosse and mali engine.

they want to condition us to max our car payments on that. easier and cheaper to build yet still tap our checkbooks. then CAFE is happy and gm didnt have to make a lot of expensive zetas.

the epsilon base is 4 cyl so that it what you have to compare to the base engine in the zeta. not the uplevel malibu 6 to the base zeta 6.

a base altima / fusion / camry / LEGACY is like 600 pounds lighter than a Zeta. zeta is a larger car but the govt wants us in the smaller ones now

What you are going to see is more 1.4, 2.0, 3.0 Turbo DI engines. Less displacment with Turbo's to add power. Less displacment will earn better mileage and the new DI engines loves boost. Car getting over 20 pounds boost are already happening I own a 2.0 Ecotec now that see's 23 PSI and is under full warranty with only GM parts. It will do high 13 sec 1/4 miles at 3200 pounds. It sees in the mid 20's MPG around town and over 30 Highway.

As for the Malibu I have noted when driving my mothers new 3.6 Bu it gets low to mid 20's in town and over 30 at highway speeds of 70 MPH. Most GM cars today will do better than the posted MPG on the window sticker even the G8. Either way the Bu will see a little more MPG than the G8 V6. Less weight, Less power you do the math.

They will also look for way to remove weight from more cars. GM will also push smaller cars like the Spark and Aveo replacment to counter the bigger cars to meet the CAFE.

[Lamar]

Just put diesels in all the Zetas and trucks, problem solved. A BMW 730 diesel gets about 10 mpg more than a CTS does, and the 7-series is a huge, heavy car. GM needs to get cars on a diet too, if they didn't weigh so much, they wouldn't need a 6 liter V8 and they wouldn't suck so much gas.

You know good and well the US doesn't like diesels.

[smk4565]

You know good and well the US doesn't like diesels.

Gotta teach them. The Jetta TDi is gaining traction. If they drop the 250ish hp and torque 3.6 V6, that gets 17/26 mpg, for a 250 hp, 425 lb-ft 24/35 mpg engine, I think people will buy it. They still have to offer gas engines, but diesel is about 50% in Europe, there is no reason it couldn't be here.

[Z-06]

You know good and well the US doesn't like diesels.

I think this is half true. It is also that the manufacturers do not want to spend dough to get the cars approved for our emissions standards. By blaming on the consumers they preempt salvos on themselves.

[Robert Hall]

You know good and well the US doesn't like diesels.

That's a perception more than reality..VW is doing well w/ diesels here, MB and BMW have them also. The automakers are denying us diesels based on outdated perceptions. I'd love to have a modern RWD V6 diesel sedan (a CTS or G8 diesel would have been fantastic).

Rob

Edited August 5, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Z-06]

That's a perception more than reality..VW is doing well w/ diesels here, MB and BMW have them also. The automakers are denying us diesels based on outdated perceptions. I'd love to have a modern RWD V6 diesel sedan (a CTS or G8 diesel would have been fantastic).

Rob

I think that the Venturi 3.0L V6 and Baby Duramax with 6 speed manual and automatic would be ideal powertrains for zetas.

[Robert Hall]

I think that the Venturi 3.0L V6 and Baby Duramax with 6 speed manual and automatic would be ideal powertrains for zetas.

I'd love to have a Camaro w/ a sloping hatchback roofline w/ a diesel w/ 6spd manual, awd, 10 inches of ground clearance, etc. A modern Eagle SX4 with muscle. Am I insane?

Rob

[hyperv6]

I think this is half true. It is also that the manufacturers do not want to spend dough to get the cars approved for our emissions standards. By blaming on the consumers they preempt salvos on themselves.

Now this is only half true.

The people who buy diesels are people who like and understand them. They are Euro car buyers and truck owners. THey know what they can do and do not have this off preception they are like the old Olds based engines or city bus engine of the past. The Olds engine did more damage to preception than anything.

The MFG's do not want to spend the money unless they are sure they will make back their investments. That is why GM spends money on Diesels for thier pick up trucks but not the cars. They know they will be able to move them.

Hell if they knew they would buy them we would be driving them already. They were too much of an investment when GM had little money to take the chance.

I am not anti Diesel by anymeans but even I was still shocked how fast and quiet the Audi ALMS cars were on the track. I expected loud and smokey but they were so quiet I could hear the air on the wings as they went by.

General acceptance of a Diesel in this country in small cars would be a big help to the industry. In fact I wish they had made a small diesel for the Volt an option. The only issue there is old fuel in the tank if it went unused for long.

[hyperv6]

I'd love to have a Camaro w/ a sloping hatchback roofline w/ a diesel w/ 6spd manual, awd, 10 inches of ground clearance, etc. A modern Eagle SX4 with muscle. Am I insane?

Rob

No we like the word disturbed better. LOL!

[CaddyXLR-V]

You know good and well the US doesn't like diesels.

What are you basing that on? VW is doing pretty good with their diesels, and they always have better resale value than their gas versions of the same car. Who else has offered a diesel in a car besides luxury brands in the past 10 years? Whats not to like about V6 power and better than 40mpg? It sounds a lot more appealing than a hybrid with 0-60 times of 11 seconds to get the same 40mpg.

[§carlet §wordfish]

I'd love to have modern Eagle SX4 with muscle. Am I insane?

Rob

+1

In fact I'd love to have an entire modernized Eagle line. Light, compact, 4WD, availible as a sedan, coupe, convertible, hatchback, wagon, heck even a light pickup, with a whole range of engines from a fuel-sipping turbo I4 to a ground pounding V8.

What was this thread about again? Oh yeah, premium compact Buick. That would be a good thing.