GMX386

[turbo200]

Firstly

Thankyou so much for this brilliant information.  I guess there is a bit of disbelief on the forum, as this is such a bombshell.

Secondly

Could you please give us your gut feeling - is this cause for optimism or pessimism?  What midsizers do GM expect to sell around that time - Daewoo based product?

I didn't realise realise that it was the Epsilon 2 versions that were being cancelled.  I was hoping it was just a delaying of the projects to bring them onto Epsilon 2...and therefore facilitating global product development, not moving away from it.

Is my earlier pessimistic post justified?  ie my cynical gut feeling that GM is simply running out of cash and is not going to spend money on anything that far out - "let's see what kind of company we have left after we emerge from chapter 11"

[post="56204"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, HH was always talking about Epsilon 1. NG Malibu and NG G6 were to continue on Epsilon 1, most likely with extensive revisions to the platform, in fact Malibu was supposed to grow in width and length, significantly.

Now it seems GM has decided to focus on a worldwide version of EP II. Go back and reread his posts, there is no mention of GM cancelling EPII. Again, this may all look bleak, but for now all we know is the next generations of G6 and Malibu that were supposed to be on Epsilon I have been cancelled, and most likely are being placed on the fast track on Epsilon II. We also know GMX002 [Ion] have been delayed as well and will most likely be full on Astra now, instead of Delta based.

We all need to relax a little before we explode.

[turbo200]

I have worked in the auto industry for 25 years, most of the time at the Warren
Tech Center. A program being cancelled is always preceded by many signs,
none of which have occured on the first three programs mentioned. In fact,
many are puttting in extra hours working on some of those "cancelled" programs. Myself included.
It's just not true. I am trying to understand what you have to gain,
by saying they're cancelled.... ?

[post="56227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I have no inside angle on this issue, but is it possible that design work could continue on these cars, while platform issues are being sorted out? HH is reporting NG Malibu and G6 have been cancelled....on Epsilon 1. Thegriffon has stated many times not to get worried over this, it's all just consolidation, in more or less words. Obviously Malibu and G6 have been moved to the global platform that will underpin Vectra. Since these platforms were an evolution of each other, AND thegriffon already stated [or perhaps another insider] that what was shown to analysts in the design preview would still be coming out, albeit with some changes now. So design work could still be continuing on these.

What worries me is Aura has been scaled back. I don't understand that, but I hope it only means we were originally going to get a wagon or more derivatives and now it's been scaled back. I don't know, but whatever it is doesn't sound good.

I consider HH a good source on these issues. And let me be the first to say C&G wouldn't be nearly what it is without the wealth of information provided by good insiders.

[Sixty8panther]

How do you know that I'm not an insider. Here, I'll prove it.

When the bird sneezes into the hat, what does it mean?
Just kidding. Actually I think Hogans Heroes had some interesting info recently.

[post="56100"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The blind man with the yellow hat walks backwards in the blue fog.

[Croc]

When the Rabbit of Chaos is pursued by the Ferret of Disorder across the Fields of Anarchy, it is time to hang up your pants on the Hook of Darkness--whether they're clean or not.

[Hogans_Heroes]

I have worked in the auto industry for 25 years, most of the time at the Warren
Tech Center. A program being cancelled is always preceded by many signs,
none of which have occured on the first three programs mentioned. In fact,
many are puttting in extra hours working on some of those "cancelled" programs. Myself included.
It's just not true. I am trying to understand what you have to gain,
by saying they're cancelled.... ?

[post="56227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

More recently, I've been able to get or hear of three insiders at GM in addition to yourself indicating the GMX386 Malibu and the NG G6 are still on schedule - and I don't discount this. But it continues to contradict information from supplier sources where the Malibu is concerned; some have indicated the Epsilon refresh could become an Epsilon2 ("Global Epsilon") debut, but later.

Also, to deflate the direst of speculation, the Saturn Aura seems perfectly safe and on schedule. The information I'd received relates, then, to the Epsilon2 ("Global Epsilon") version which was scheduled too early after the Epsilon debut anyhow. Edited December 11, 2005 by Hogans_Heroes

[Trimnell1]

We've known that Ep1 was always capable of AWD but that GM never put it into any of the Epsilon cars, nor is there any plan to at this time. I believe Hogans Heroes told us that Ep2 will have AWD capability built-in from the start, so maybe that is one of the reasons that the NG Malibu is being cancelled on Ep1 and being moved to Ep2 with a corresponding delay. GM knows it has a huge hill to climb to combat the Japanese and now the emerging Korean midsizers, so any advantage the NG Malibu has (like optional AWD) will really help in GM's fight. Maybe another reason for the delay is that GM took a long look at the Hyundia Azera and NG Camry and decided to rework some things from the prototype shown to the analysts. Like thegriffon said, this will help GM quicken the phaseout of Ep1 and accelerate the commonality of the Ep2 platform.

On the other hand, mightymouse works at the GM Tech Center and he says that nothing has been cancelled. Since he and his colleagues are putting in overtime on these programs, I believe him as well. Two conflicting reports from two inside sources. :unsure: Edited December 11, 2005 by Trimnell1

[Ghost Dog]

When the Rabbit of Chaos is pursued by the Ferret of Disorder across the Fields of Anarchy, it is time to hang up your pants on the Hook of Darkness--whether they're clean or not.

[post="56356"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:AH-HA_wink:

[Ghost Dog]

Ok just reexamining from a Saturn point of View. We will still get 112 inch wheelbase Aura, thats close to the concept?On Schedule? We will not get an Ion replacement from Lordstown. But Maybe a current GME Astra from somewhere? (AMS) We will still get the Lambda Outlook on schedule? We will still get an Antara styled Vue follow up? on Schedule? The Auto-Motor-Sport article mentioned a Signum for Saturn? Edited December 10, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[Northstar]

Ghost Dog - can you post this article or is it in German? I don't think GM would cancel/delay any Lambdas as it's not waiting for any sort of global platform to arise and they're going to be big money makers.

[RichW5]

You're all thinking too much. A number of programs beside Malibu and Ion will be affected by GM's focus on the Global architectures (Small, Compact, Medium, Rwd—Greek alpha's are out). There will be some delays, some re-assignment of responsibilities internationally, some global program mergers, and more radical changes for some products. "Tip of the iceberg" probably gives the wrong idea though. Product development will not be decimated as many of you seem to fear.

[post="55859"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Listen to griff, evok and Ah-ha. The sky is not falling! Changes to programs will be made but, "Product development will not be decimated", as many seem to fear.

I think we all realize that GM needs to made some "Bold Decisions" about their product. Be happy that they finally woke up.

[!!!TED!!!]

QUOTE(Hogans_Heroes @ Dec 10 2005, 03:11 AM)
Okay, here are some beans for you guys:

NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled.

NG G6 (GMX287 & GMX327) is cancelled.

GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back.

GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail.
As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form.  Watch your PM Inbox smile.gif
*
My perspective on the "NG Pontiac G6 Global Epsilon Jul-09's" code of GMX287 and the "NG Pontiac G6 Coupe Global Epsilon Oct-09's" code of GMX327 is the same as Bob Lutz's.  Official GM documentation, prepared for management.  What's your perspective?

PS, This was hot off the press.  I responded to your earlier ribbing in jest and with late-breaking product information, at that.  These codes, launch dates, and programs were real - though don't be surprised if I'm more reticent to divulge similar information here in the future.  It has never been in my personal interest to do so and being insulted for it hardly makes it any more appealing.

[post="56198"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I was going to ask about this. According to my "cobbled-together" list of codes, the NG G6 is GMX388 (380 range are/were Epsilon). The cars in the 280 range were/are Zeta's. GMX327 is close to GMX342, which was to be the LaCrosse on Epsilon Wide. I know some codes seem to appear at random, apart from architecture groupings. I have added your information, although I had not heard of GMX287 & GMX327. :blink:

In the past, certain products, when cancelled, moved up a spot (GMX221 LeSabre became GMX222 Lucerne). Now, it seems to be pretty scattered. GMX272=current DTS, next one (I believe) is GMX296 (if it has not been cancelled yet).

The codes business is crazy confusing. :huh:

Can you or anyone clarify what GMX388 is?! :blink:

[haypops]

Speculating that if the Aura is being scaled back, but that the Malibu and G6 are being brought foward to EpII, then the Aura will be alone on the Ep1 along sith Saab 9-3. Does this mean the scaling back is to Saab whellbase? Also what does NG in NG Malibu stand for?

[Croc]

NG = Next Gen

[Chicagoland]

The current Mali' i only in its 3rd year, I don't see it being a 4 year car. Unless they keep it as a 'fleet only car" like the old N bodies? GM's future plans change daily, so who really knows? I am at the point where I don't believe it unless it comes out of Lutz' or Wagoner's mouth.

[haypops]

NG = Next Gen

[post="56419"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Makes sense and many thanks.

[SimonDavid]

Thanks Turbo200 that clears it up alot - GM is making EP2 truly global and streamlining product development Also the more I think about it it may not have yet affected the design studio source as much as the guy who work on platforms I was pondering his in an earlier post - if GM truly globalise their platforms then some of the current products are going to have weird model cycles as they align themselves around the world - but thats the one off price we have to pay

[Hogans_Heroes]

I was going to ask about this. According to my "cobbled-together" list of codes, the NG G6 is GMX388 (380 range are/were Epsilon). The cars in the 280 range were/are Zeta's. GMX327 is close to GMX342, which was to be the LaCrosse on Epsilon Wide. I know some codes seem to appear at random, apart from architecture groupings. I have added your information, although I had not heard of GMX287 & GMX327. :blink:

In the past, certain products, when cancelled, moved up a spot (GMX221 LeSabre became GMX222 Lucerne). Now, it seems to be pretty scattered. GMX272=current DTS, next one (I believe) is GMX296 (if it has not been cancelled yet).

The codes business is crazy confusing. :huh:

Can you or anyone clarify what GMX388 is?! :blink:

[post="56417"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sorry, I meant to write "GMX387/327"... these are for the NG G6 Sedan & Coupe. A worksheet I was previously working off of had read "GMX287" instead of "GMX387". Some have referred to the two models together as the GMX388.

[Ghost Dog]

Ghost Dog - can you post this article or is it in German?

I don't think GM would cancel/delay any Lambdas as it's not waiting for any sort of global platform to arise and they're going to be big money makers.

[post="56396"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Northie, this should be the article with translation.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...Flanguage_tools

[Northstar]

Won't the next Vectra and Signum both ride on Epsilon II? I'm thinking that's simply mentioning the vehicles that will share platforms with Saturns rather than hint at what vehicles will come here, but I'm just guessing. Thanks for posting that.

[Ghost Dog]

Won't the next Vectra and Signum both ride on Epsilon II? I'm thinking that's simply mentioning the vehicles that will share platforms with Saturns rather than hint at what vehicles will come here, but I'm just guessing. Thanks for posting that.

[post="56456"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's a confusing bit. And I don't think the translation is good.

This part

Already in the next year models are to go out of the OPEL work into Ruesselsheim in the USA to the start - however not under the label name OPEL, but with the Logo of the GM mark Saturn.

[Northstar]

Maybe that's referring to the SKY?

[evok]

I was going to ask about this. According to my "cobbled-together" list of codes, the NG G6 is GMX388 (380 range are/were Epsilon). The cars in the 280 range were/are Zeta's. GMX327 is close to GMX342, which was to be the LaCrosse on Epsilon Wide. I know some codes seem to appear at random, apart from architecture groupings. I have added your information, although I had not heard of GMX287 & GMX327. :blink:

In the past, certain products, when cancelled, moved up a spot (GMX221 LeSabre became GMX222 Lucerne). Now, it seems to be pretty scattered. GMX272=current DTS, next one (I believe) is GMX296 (if it has not been cancelled yet).

The codes business is crazy confusing. :huh:

Can you or anyone clarify what GMX388 is?! :blink:

[post="56417"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There is a Ovalteen decoder for it.. Edited December 11, 2005 by evok

[sigma]

Someone has been watching too much of the Christmas Story. As long as no one wants a red Ryder BB gun for Christmas, I think we will all be okay. Although that leg lamp may have been an inspiration for some of GM's tackier projects.

[steinravnik]

This is not a good thing...

[Croc]

Can we get back on track here? Any updates Hogans_Heros?

[Hogans_Heroes]

Can we get back on track here?  Any updates Hogans_Heros?

[post="56650"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, it seems the 2007MY Saturn Aura is perfectly safe. Still hearing conflicting reports on the Malibu though... all GM insiders indicate it's still moving forward but some suppliers are singing a different tune. I think they're overly sensitive to any developments at this point and would describe their overall mood as one of wariness. The Aura info was hard to believe given its very imminent launch. But the Malibu concerns me; I guess it's a bit of a wait-and-see. It wouldn't be too surprising to see priority shifted away from some programs (perhaps Epsilon Malibu) to pull others ahead, probably ZETA (to make up for lost time?). And then if it were judged you could bring the Epsilon2 Malibu forward (though of course after the mid-2007 Epsilon scheduled date), maybe GM thinks it's worth it.


http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...sult_type=posts

[turbo200]

Hogan, thanks again for the update. Though I would love to see Zeta pulled ahead, I would not like to see it at the expense of another important car. GM needs to do what they can to get the Malibu out on time. Does the Epsilon chassis not perform up to par of the competition as is? Will it be handily outclassed in a few years. I know G6 doesn't handle all that well compared to some of the competition. Bottom line is, if GM can update Epsilon to up the ante in the handling and dynamics department, bring Malibu, the design, into this century, and get rid of the rental stigma, then let's do it as fast as we can. GM needs as many competitive entrants in the midsize arena, and Aura and Malibu need to make up for lost time, just like Zeta needs to be here now too.

[Ghost Dog]

Yes, it seems the 2007MY Saturn Aura is perfectly safe.  Still hearing conflicting reports on the Malibu though... all GM insiders indicate it's still moving forward but some suppliers are singing a different tune.  I think they're overly sensitive to any developments at this point and would describe their overall mood as one of wariness.  The Aura info was hard to believe given its very imminent launch.  But the Malibu concerns me; I guess it's a bit of a wait-and-see.  It wouldn't be too surprising to see priority shifted away from some programs (perhaps Epsilon Malibu) to pull others ahead, probably ZETA (to make up for lost time?).  And then if it were judged you could bring the Epsilon2 Malibu forward (though of course after the mid-2007 Epsilon scheduled date), maybe GM thinks it's worth it.
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...sult_type=posts

[post="56786"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thanks

[turbo200]

One more thing, did you mean to include a search of your posts at the bottom of your post?

[Hogans_Heroes]

One more thing, did you mean to include a search of your posts at the bottom of your post?

[post="56790"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, I tried to link to a post I made earlier in this thread indicating reports the Aura would be scaled back most likely relate to the Epsilon2 version being delayed a bit and that the current (mid-2006 2007MY) version was perfectly fine.

[Ghost Dog]

Out of date but there are codes here.Page 62

http://www.leetninjamonkeyhaxors.com/uploa...cleveland_e.pdf

[Hogans_Heroes]

OK, in all seriousness I have also been hearing of these cancellations.  But, have been getting mixed signals as to what is really going on.  First off, a very large supplier is still working on the 002 Ion, but some smaller suppliers aren't.  This could simply be a reshuffling of work withing GM's more globally focused direction. 

To me, 386 Malibu doesn't make much sense since it would be less than a three year program on the current Epislon with the Epislon II following in 2010.  That one won't be too surprising if it has bit the dust or been rescoped.  Based on what I saw, it was a great looking design for today, but will probably be nothing special come 2008.  Try and amortize the costs of that over just 3 years, it makes for a difficult business case.

As for G6, the 388 has been recently cancelled and only just given way to 387/327.  The supplier community is only learning about the 387/327 just recently.  The 387/327 are Epsilon II program for LWB 4d and SWB 2d.

384 Aura is just fine, nothing happening there and it should do well in the market.  The 161/162 Sub-Theta programs are also reportedly cancelled, due to poor benchmarking results.  But again, were are still likely to see new, revised Sub-Theta's.

While a lot of this and other changes, delays and cancellations are very disappointing, there are also a bunch of new programs popping up as well, particularly for Medium RWD, previously known as Zeta.  Remember, global rationalization is sweeping through GM like wildfire.

Keep the faith! :AH-HA_wink:

[post="56809"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

AH-HA,

I like your thinking on the 386 and, despite what some people working on it at GM are saying, agree it could succumb to such logic.

Another thing regarding the 354 Aura, couldn't it too be subject to re-think as well? For instance, GMX384 Saturn Aura is set to debut on Epsilon (Jul-06) but GM's also got a rework of it (GMX354 NG Saturn Aura on Global Epsilon) in Apr-09. This is very soon, less than three years afterwards.

We've both floated the possibility the GMX386 gets axed with the Epsilon2 pulled ahead (in part due to its previously-planned-for compressed lifecycle). I continue to wonder if there's not another side to the coin - the other side being the 387/327 delayed beyond Jul-09 and Oct-09 and also the GMX384 could soldier on for a bit longer - perhaps a more traditional five year lifecycle.

We could chew this over on the 19th if you're coming to the get-together.

[Hudson]

Chicagoland:

You're right. The GMX380 (current Malibu) is expected to remain in production after GMX386 (next generation Malibu) has been introduced.

The only thing I can say about this thread is that it reminds me of the Inquirer tabloid.

The Inquirer is the newspaper of Philadelphia. The Enquirer is the tabloid you're refering to.

Okay, here are some beans for you guys:

NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled.

NG G6 (GMX387 & GMX327) is cancelled.

GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back.

GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail.
As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form.  Watch your PM Inbox :)
*UPDATE:  It seems Saturn Aura is safe.

This and your later posts seem to lead me to believe that you're quite a distance removed from real data. Here's what I've seen:

GMX386...still on schedule.
There's no G6 replacement on the schedule through the 2009 model year...nor should it be expected.
GMX384...still on schedule.
GMX002...still on the schedule
There are replacements for the LaCrosse and Grand Prix on the schedule as well...but I have yet to see anyone post the actual program codes for them.

[Northstar]

There's no G6 replacement on the schedule through the 2009 model year...nor should it be expected.

...

There are replacements for the LaCrosse and Grand Prix on the schedule as well...but I have yet to see anyone post the actual program codes for them.

[post="56824"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You mean that the NG G6 isn't scheduled to arrive until after MY2009, correct?

LaCrosse is GMX353? And I am assuming the Grand Prix is not Epsilon II since the G6 will be, so that means it's probably a new code that's different from the Zeta one (which was GMX285?).

[turbo200]

next time on C&G TV: lunch with the insiders

[Hogans_Heroes]

Chicagoland:

You're right. The GMX380 (current Malibu) is expected to remain in production after GMX386 (next generation Malibu) has been introduced.
The Inquirer is the newspaper of Philadelphia. The Enquirer is the tabloid you're refering to.
This and your later posts seem to lead me to believe that you're quite a distance removed from real data. Here's what I've seen:

GMX386...still on schedule.
There's no G6 replacement on the schedule through the 2009 model year...nor should it be expected.
GMX384...still on schedule.
GMX002...still on the schedule
There are replacements for the LaCrosse and Grand Prix on the schedule as well...but I have yet to see anyone post the actual program codes for them.

[post="56824"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Hudson,

Your points one-by-one.

GMX386: We have not said the GMX386 is definitively cancelled, or at least I don't mean to imply that with a great degree of certitude any longer. I've cited sources which are contradictory and this raises serious questions.

G6: No one's said anything about 2009MY G6 replacements. GM has scheduled (as I indicated above in several places) a move to Epsilon2 ("Global Epsilon") for the G6 Coupe & Sedan in October and July 2009. Obviously, these would be 2010MY. And sure they're in danger of delay.

GMX384: Yes, on schedule. Don't disagree. However, I do think 354 is being delayed.

GMX002: Preponderence of evidence I've seen does show it is cancelled. That info is light-years better than anything I've got on the 386. But, the last thing I'm trying to do is assert this above all evidence to the contrary. If you've got good reason to think it's still on, I'd love to hear it. Still, doesn't it need to be weighed against all the evidence to the contrary?

LaCrosse & Grand Prix: You're correct about the LaCrosse - the code is GMX353 on Global Epsilon in Jan-09 as a 2010MY, most likely in Orion Township. I've made no assertion to the contrary. The code has been out there for a long time and the program itself is pretty public. But there's no future Grand Prix, from what I can gather at least... and I haven't seen any codes associated with it. The LaCrosse is Epsilon2; what platform have you got in mind for Grand Prix?

Regards,
HH

[Hogans_Heroes]

Nah... it's just an inside joke.

[post="56839"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

LOL! :lol:

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Okay, here are some beans for you guys:

NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled.

NG G6 (GMX387 & GMX327) is cancelled.

GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back.

GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail.
As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form.  Watch your PM Inbox :)
*UPDATE:  It seems Saturn Aura is safe.

[post="56171"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM should leave the Aura alone... It's one of the FEW successful car's they'll have. Of course, once again, that would be typical GM...Get it right and either kill it or severely handicapp it.

I certainly hope GM has an alternate plan... If they just let the current cars wither in the market for an undetermined amount of time then they're screwed and will probably NEVER make a significant comeback in the segment.

Sad to see GM cancel so many of the "revision" plans that were supposed to help themn so much and I'm sure we'll continue to hear the GLOOM and DOOM march at a fever pitch from the "disrespected" and already negative analysts and media.

[Hogans_Heroes]

GM should leave the Aura alone... It's one of the FEW successful car's they'll have. Of course, once again, that would be typical GM...Get it right and either kill it or severely handicapp it.

I certainly hope GM has an alternate plan... If they just let the current cars wither in the market for an undetermined amount of time then they're screwed and will probably NEVER make a significant comeback in the segment.

Sad to see GM cancel so many of the "revision" plans that were supposed to help themn so much and I'm sure we'll continue to hear the GLOOM and DOOM march at a fever pitch from the "disrespected" and already negative analysts and media.

[post="56853"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

FUTURE_OF_GM,

I agree if true these delays are not so great. I want to see the GMX386 come out and on time. Just to clear some things up, I don't believe the 387/327 is cancelled - just delayed, probably to 2010. And this upcoming Aura on Epsilon is fine too. The Epsilon2 version (354), though seems delayed.

[evok]

The LaCrosse is Epsilon2; what platform have you got in mind for Grand Prix?

Regards,
HH

[post="56833"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Zeta - It is in AVA. And there is a code. Edited December 11, 2005 by evok

[sigma]

It would be about time that the GP got RWD.

[NOS2006]

Zeta - It is in AVA.

[post="56867"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Any word on if they're changing the name on the GP + Bonne to G8 still?

[Hogans_Heroes]

Zeta - It is in AVA. And there is a code.

[post="56867"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Interesting about Grand Prix. I'll keep that in mind. I know they were looking at the "G8" but thought it had died for good a while back when ZETA was delayed.

Pontiac doesn't really need a full lineup going forward and should become a more focused brand. Already, I've figured the Buick Invicta (Buick RWD Flagship) shouldn't go forward assuming the Lucerne goes RWD... so maybe that leaves enough room in Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealerships for a couple of RWD models. Whatever the case, I think it's got to be limited at a maximjum of 2 between the two brands.

When are you looking at for ZETA, btw? Mid-to-late 2009?

[Croc]

I don't have inside information, but from what we've had indicated to us in the past, mid-late 2009 sounds about right. These indications date back to late October/early November so changes could had occurred.

[evok]

Interesting about Grand Prix.  I'll keep that in mind.  I know they were looking at the "G8" but thought it had died for good a while back when ZETA was delayed.

Pontiac doesn't really need a full lineup going forward and should become a more focused brand.  Already, I've figured the Buick Invicta (Buick RWD Flagship) shouldn't go forward assuming the Lucerne goes RWD... so maybe that leaves enough room in Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealerships for a couple of RWD models.  Whatever the case, I think it's got to be limited at a maximjum of 2 between the two brands.

When are you looking at for ZETA, btw?  Mid-to-late 2009?

[post="56886"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes and this is not the defunct 280 series code. This time around zeta will not be niche. Edited December 11, 2005 by evok

[thegriffon]

Zegma.

[post="56844"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As I understand what evok has said before, "Zegma" is his term for the Camaro platform, a blend of Zeta (Global Rwd or Medium Rwd) and Sigma, to create a smaller? cheaper architecture. The Grand Prix replacement/G8 would be pure Zeta.

If the G6 and Malibu are switching to Epsilon II, surely some work not affected by the change could continue, while other would have to be cancelled? As for the Aura replacement, timing is probably dictated to some degree by that of the NG Opel Vectra, which has undergone a less dramatic facelift and will need to be replaced sooner than the Aura. Any delay may be dictated by adjustments made for upgrading Fairfax to EpII, perhaps why there was a 2nd new Malibu planned in the first place.

[mightymouse]

Sorry, I meant to write "GMX387/327"

[post="56440"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I am sorry, if I made you feel unhappy.... the other day.
Of course I could be wrong also, it happens often!
My comments were likely fueled by your interesting and
mysterious writing skills which I thought, at the time, were
difficult to understand, and funny....please forgive me. :) Edited December 11, 2005 by mightymouse

[evok]

As I understand what evok has said before, "Zegma" is his term for the Camaro platform, a blend of Zeta (Global Rwd or Medium Rwd) and Sigma, to create a smaller?

[post="56912"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not my scoop!

[mightymouse]

I heard all mid-size cars are now being rolled the into Smegma platform.

[Chazman]

Not my scoop!

[post="56915"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Nor mine.