GMX386

[KillFort]

Same "eggs in one basket" thinking as usual. Everyone I've talked who have seen it or know people who have seen it say the NG Malibu was going to do great things for GM...

[ZL-1]

Ok, more triangulating of sources has taken place in just the last 18 hours.

While I can't go into detail here, suffice it to say the GMX386 has turned out to be just the tip of a very large iceberg.

[post="55713"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So that means more programs got delayed or killed: any info you can share with the rest of us?

[Northstar]

This just keeps catching me off-gaurd... I realize that the Aura is going to be a much better vehicle than the G6 and the Malibu, but can we honestly expect it to overtake the other two in sales with it's limited dealer network? It is just a midsize sedan and I can't see people going out of their way just for it. That and the better car doesn't always equal better sales. Look at the G6, I think most people here would say it is a better car than the Malibu...

[post="55798"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Agreed about the dealer network. But, compared to Chevy and Pontiac, Toyota and Honda don't have a very big dealer network either. I don't expect the Aura to outsell the Accord or Camry, but I do expect it to at least match the Malibu and G6 in retail sales.

As for the G6 not selling better than the Malibu: well, 49% of the Malibus sales are to fleets, and only 16% of G6s go to fleets. If you take that into account, the G6 has had nearly as many retail sales as the Malibu for the year (96545 vs 94250). And you should also take into account that at the beginning of the year the G6 was just barely selling (4k sales in Jan and 7k in Feb).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Okay, sorry - didn't mean to jog a collective mind trip back to an 8 o'clock English 102 or anything!  It was my attempt to humorously refer to Prufrock: http://www.bartleby.com/198/1.html

As for the 386, I'm still trying to sort it out myself.  But some important suppliers have very recently been handed "stop-work" orders associated with the NG Malibu's code.  It sounds improbable, I know.  But how many improbable things have happened at GM in the past year?  Or the past month for that matter.

Anyone else hearing rumblings on this?

[post="55408"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

WAY TO GO GM!!!!!

Show signs of a revivial and then just give up!!!

[Mike The Canadian]

I have been thinking about what evok said... I cant wear this badge anymore.. and then we got the tip of the iceberg... is gm going to eliminate pontiac or buick? (if epII aint happening, there is no future lacrosse, atleast from what we konw) Even after that niether buick or pontiac really have anything coming out anytime soon (other than the super and gxp versions of the cars)

[thegriffon]

You're all thinking too much. A number of programs beside Malibu and Ion will be affected by GM's focus on the Global architectures (Small, Compact, Medium, Rwd—Greek alpha's are out). There will be some delays, some re-assignment of responsibilities internationally, some global program mergers, and more radical changes for some products. "Tip of the iceberg" probably gives the wrong idea though. Product development will not be decimated as many of you seem to fear.

[sciguy_0504]

I think we need to wait until we hear the full story on all of these rumors and speculation. If the Malibu is being delayed in order to redo it (make it more competitive) than I'm all for it, it's a lot better than releasing another half-assed model. If cars are being delayed so GM can cut down costs in the platform sharing area, I'm for that, too. The "tip of the iceberg" comment is not good, though. We need more information.

[GM GUY]

If things look this bleak, im thinking the super and gxp versions have been canceled.

[Northstar]

(if epII aint happening, there is no future lacrosse, atleast from what we konw) Even after that niether buick or pontiac really have anything coming out anytime soon (other than the super and gxp versions of the cars)

[post="55857"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Epsilon II hasn't been cancelled. I think the EPII LaCrosse will still be on track, it's just that the 2008 Malibu was supposed to be on EPI and now they're delaying it until it can go on EPII. I think the same thing is happening with the ION... it would be on Delta I but they're waiting until the new Astra is ready to go to put both on Delta II.

As for the "Super" and GXP that someone mentioned: I see no reason why they wouldn't go ahead with those as they're just versions of current vehicles that are going to live on for a little while anyways.

[Ghost Dog]

You're all thinking too much. A number of programs beside Malibu and Ion will be affected by GM's focus on the Global architectures (Small, Compact, Medium, Rwd—Greek alpha's are out). There will be some delays, some re-assignment of responsibilities internationally, some global program mergers, and more radical changes for some products. "Tip of the iceberg" probably gives the wrong idea though. Product development will not be decimated as many of you seem to fear.

[post="55859"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Uncle Bobs big dream of Interbuildability sounds dead.

[G. David Felt]

<_< As long as I can get my Duramax in a Suburban or Denali I am happy! :P So far except for Caddy and the Corvette. Not any of the current car's blow air up my pants. They are all boring and dull. So kill them, kill them all and bring out some global RWD quality exciting car's for each division after they kill Buick and Pontiac. Chevy - entry division Saturn - step up from Chevy GMC - professional Grade Caddy - Luxury level. The New GM! :)

[sciguy_0504]

And now for the Pontiac fans...

[ZL-1]

You're all thinking too much. A number of programs beside Malibu and Ion will be affected by GM's focus on the Global architectures (Small, Compact, Medium, Rwd—Greek alpha's are out). There will be some delays, some re-assignment of responsibilities internationally, some global program mergers, and more radical changes for some products. "Tip of the iceberg" probably gives the wrong idea though. Product development will not be decimated as many of you seem to fear.

[post="55859"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, the expression "Tip of the iceberg" does make you wonder... especially those of us who don't work for GM (but would like to, if GM Europe weren't acting like idiots by not wanting to hire people that would have to relocate to Zürich - but that's another story).

Back on topic, if the "Tip of the iceberg" means that GM is finally going to implement a global approach to product development, then this might be a welcome delay. Smarter allocation of develpment money, so efforts are not duplicated and good ideas can move faster inside the company: I'm all for it! Edited December 9, 2005 by ZL-1

[Cory Wolfe]

And now for the Pontiac fans...

[post="55878"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yeah... I'll just be over at Honda. And Nissan... and Mazda... hell, maybe even Toyota. Don't worry about this Pontiac fan. I'm set for a life without Pontiac. Or is that life in prison after I do something bad to those within GM that killed Pontiac? Hmm...

[rimtrim]

I do wonder about the Saturn Ion news. GM has already announced that the Ion line at Spring Hill will shut down at the end of calendar 2006. That means, at most, a short 2007 model year run, or maybe no 2007 model at all. I doubt it would even be possible, let alone make financial sense, for GM to move production of the existing plastic Ion to Lordstown (Cobalt). So, what does this mean? Saturn has NO compact car for an undefined period of time after 12/06? That seems like a good way to destroy the brand. -Andrew L

[mightymouse]

I'm hearing increasing chatter regarding the 2008MY GMX386 on Global Epsilon.  Backroom channels, scrawling on the walls of secret passages, notes between homeroom and first period, smoke signals, that sort of thing.

Internal GM plans (as recently as September 2005) were showing a very green October 2007 launch.  Hands on the wheel.  Eyes on the road.
It seems the eternal footman was recently spotted in the area of this bedrock program.  No coat was seen in hand.  Not the hint of a snicker.  Yet, there he was, inexplicably peering in its darkened windows, fogging up the front passenger window, kicking tires, tracing his fingers along the sheetmetal.

What WAS he doing?

[post="55288"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As if he knew WTF he was mumbling about, he stammered onward, spewing
pointless clues, each one more redonkulious than the last.

Get well soon.

[Chazman]

As if he knew WTF he was mumbling about, he stammered onward, spewing
pointless clues, each one more redonkulious than the last.

Get well soon.

[post="56004"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:lol:


Don't forget.....


The sky is very high....

John has a long moustache....

The chair is against the door.....

What does that mean? Hell if I know.

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

[sciguy_0504]

Harrassing insiders won't get you many fans on C&G.

[Chazman]

Harrassing insiders won't get you many fans on C&G.

[post="56078"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How do you know that I'm not an insider. Here, I'll prove it.

When the bird sneezes into the hat, what does it mean?


Just kidding. Actually I think Hogans Heroes had some interesting info recently.

[thegriffon]

Buick is so far unaffected, and Pontiac isn't going away either.

[HUMVEE]

I would think that "I can't wear this badge anymore" means that they arn't going to call it Malibu anymore. I read somewhere where Lutz wanted to rename it since it was going to be so much better as to not tarnish the impression. I can't see how this version can sustain itself until 09/10. It needs tons of rebates now and it's only in it's third year!

[thegriffon]

You're reading way too much into a simple reference to "Knocking on Heaven's Door" from the soundtrack to Pat Garret and Billy the Kid. "Mama take this badge offa me..." is just the first line.

[Hudson]

So, what does this mean? Saturn has NO compact car for an undefined period of time after 12/06? That seems like a good way to destroy the brand.

There's a Ion replacement in the current plan.

[VenSeattle]

Buick is so far unaffected, and Pontiac isn't going away either.

[post="56104"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That's a relief to hear. :)

[evok]

The only thing I can say about this thread is that it reminds me of the Inquirer tabloid.

[Hogans_Heroes]

So that means more programs got delayed or killed: any info you can share with the rest of us?

[post="55826"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Okay, here are some beans for you guys:

NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled.

NG G6 (GMX387 & GMX327) is cancelled.

GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back.

GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail.


As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form. Watch your PM Inbox :)


*UPDATE: It seems Saturn Aura is safe. Edited December 11, 2005 by Hogans_Heroes

[gerardo]

What do you mean by scaled back?

[ZL-1]

Re-reading these posts and the ones in the Saturn forum about the Ion replacement, I think they're just killing redesigns on the current version of the Epsilon architecture. Nothing dramatic here. The smart thing to do is to rationalize money allocation accross engineering centers so thy can deliver the best products in each segment.

[ehaase]

GuionM's post at the Z28 board is interesting

http://64.65.63.61/forums/showthread.php?p...084#post3497084

Especially this comment - "In all this, it seemed the "Chevy" RWD chassis evolved into the favorite, and when the money got flowing again, it seems that the Chevy chassis was put on the fast track, and seems to have become the priority over even the Espilon 2!"

If this is true - and if GM is pushing back some of these FWD programs - to speed up new RWD cars, I doubt that most of you would be upset.

Perhaps more RWD, V8 cars from GM would generate more profits than updating FWD cars that keep failing against the Camry/Accord.

[Ghost Dog]

GuionM's post at the Z28 board is interesting

http://64.65.63.61/forums/showthread.php?p...084#post3497084

Especially this comment - "In all this, it seemed the "Chevy" RWD chassis evolved into the favorite, and when the money got flowing again, it seems that the Chevy chassis was put on the fast track, and seems to have become the priority over even the Espilon 2!"

If this is true - and if GM is pushing back some of these FWD programs - to speed up new RWD cars, I doubt that most of you would be upset.

Perhaps more RWD, V8 cars from GM would generate more profits than updating FWD cars that keep failing against the Camry/Accord.

[post="56182"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

One of the Guys at work yesterday was telling how on they way in, He and about 20 other cars were stuck behind a BMW that could' nt make it up a hill in the snow.

Abandoning EP2 is just another foolish mistake by GMNA. Im begining to picture GMNA as pure Chaos and Disarray. people just running up and down hallways screaming.

Can Chevy sell a plants worth of Rwd cars? Yeah they Can. Camaro,Nomad,Bel Air.

But Who will build the Quality Volume Family sedan? Can Aura compete with Fusion,Camry,and Accord on Ep1? If Aura ends up being just the Vectra will it sell in Volume at that size?

[mightymouse]

Okay, here are some beans for you guys:

NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled.

NG G6 (GMX287 & GMX327) is cancelled.

GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back.

GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail.
As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form.  Watch your PM Inbox :)

[post="56171"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Clearly you have a unique perspective on the industry...You need new sources
for your info, the truth is not always clear. Your statements here are 75% false-
as are your GMX codes for G6. Spreading these baseless rumors is of no value
to anyone. comeonnow Edited December 10, 2005 by mightymouse

[Ghost Dog]

Cleary you have a unique perspective on the industry...You need new sources
for your info, the truth is not always clear. Your statements here are 75% false-
as are your GMX codes for G6. Spreading these baseless rumors is of no value
to anyone. comeonnow

[post="56194"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Nah Hogan nows his stuff.

[Hogans_Heroes]

QUOTE(Hogans_Heroes @ Dec 10 2005, 03:11 AM)
Okay, here are some beans for you guys:

NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled.

NG G6 (GMX287 & GMX327) is cancelled.

GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back.

GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail.
As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form. Watch your PM Inbox smile.gif
*

Cleary you have a unique perspective on the industry...You need new sources
for your info, the truth is not always clear. Your statements here are 75% false-
as are your GMX codes for G6. Spreading these baseless rumors is of no value
to anyone. comeonnow

[post="56194"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My perspective on the "NG Pontiac G6 Global Epsilon Jul-09's" code of GMX287 and the "NG Pontiac G6 Coupe Global Epsilon Oct-09's" code of GMX327 is the same as Bob Lutz's. Official GM documentation, prepared for management. What's your perspective?

PS, This was hot off the press. I responded to your earlier ribbing in jest and with late-breaking product information, at that. These codes, launch dates, and programs were real - though don't be surprised if I'm more reticent to divulge similar information here in the future. It has never been in my personal interest to do so and being insulted for it hardly makes it any more appealing. Edited December 10, 2005 by Hogans_Heroes

[Ghost Dog]

I have a bad feeling Aura will be the Vectra. Vectra being a compact, while the Aura concept was a midsize. If Aura Becomes a compact, there is no need for an Ion Replacement. Now if they could pound out 112 (Signum) inch wheelbase Vectra's as the Aura. It would work for me. Shoot if they did that they Could Sell Signum/Aura as the Midsize. And Vectra as the Compact. Edited December 10, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[GMan]

Saturn Aura is being scaled back? What do you mean by "scaled back"?

[SimonDavid]

QUOTE(Hogans_Heroes @ Dec 10 2005, 03:11 AM)
Okay, here are some beans for you guys:

NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled.

NG G6 (GMX287 & GMX327) is cancelled.

GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back.

GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail.
As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form.  Watch your PM Inbox smile.gif
*
My perspective on the "NG Pontiac G6 Global Epsilon Jul-09's" code of GMX287 and the "NG Pontiac G6 Coupe Global Epsilon Oct-09's" code of GMX327 is the same as Bob Lutz's.  Official GM documentation, prepared for management.  What's your perspective?

PS, This was hot off the press.  I responded to your earlier ribbing in jest and with late-breaking product information, at that.  These codes, launch dates, and programs were real - though don't be surprised if I'm more reticent to divulge similar information here in the future.  It has never been in my personal interest to do so and being insulted for it hardly makes it any more appealing.

[post="56198"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Firstly

Thankyou so much for this brilliant information. I guess there is a bit of disbelief on the forum, as this is such a bombshell.

Secondly

Could you please give us your gut feeling - is this cause for optimism or pessimism? What midsizers do GM expect to sell around that time - Daewoo based product?

I didn't realise realise that it was the Epsilon 2 versions that were being cancelled. I was hoping it was just a delaying of the projects to bring them onto Epsilon 2...and therefore facilitating global product development, not moving away from it.

Is my earlier pessimistic post justified? ie my cynical gut feeling that GM is simply running out of cash and is not going to spend money on anything that far out - "let's see what kind of company we have left after we emerge from chapter 11"

[sigma]

I have a couple of questions... 1) Does this mean the GMNA will wait until MY09-10 to launch these products onto EpII? Will GMNA use EpII or DeltaII for that matter? 2) What does cancelled mean? I remember reports that Zeta was cancelled, then it was suspended, then it was thrown into developement overdrive. Just looking for some clarification 3) Does this mean that the 07 Malibu/G6 will get a some re-engineering and interior improvements/overhaul? Or will GM allow them to stay unchanged until they are replaced?

[Mike The Canadian]

whats gmx002?

[mightymouse]

I have worked in the auto industry for 25 years, most of the time at the Warren Tech Center. A program being cancelled is always preceded by many signs, none of which have occured on the first three programs mentioned. In fact, many are puttting in extra hours working on some of those "cancelled" programs. Myself included. It's just not true. I am trying to understand what you have to gain, by saying they're cancelled.... ? Edited December 10, 2005 by mightymouse

[SimonDavid]

I think GMX 002 is/was the Ion replacement on Delta

[sciguy_0504]

I have a feeling this thread is going to explode.

[El Scorcho]

Now I just don't know what to believe. According to Hogan, EpII Mali and G6 are both cancelled, and Aura has seen significant changes (new platform, on hold, drastically different from concept in size/features?), while the current Ion is dead. Regarding the Ion, I don't see the sense in canceling one of the only other cars on Delta this early before Delta II (it has to be at least a few years off, Delta is still fairly new). Without a small car, Saturn will be stuck to languish like Buick and Pontiac, which it does not appear the management wants. Can GM really survive with just the Aveo, Cobalt, and HHR as their only US compacts? On to the Aura. I could see GM waiting on EpII to release the Aura...if EpII was near ready. At this point, it's my understanding that it's at least 3-4 years off, meaning we would have to wait that many years for a Saturn midsizer...meaning Saturn would have to get by with the Vue, Outlook, and Relay. GMC part deux. What exactly does "scaled back" mean? Is it no longer meant to be a true competitor to cars like the Passat? The G6 and Mali are the most confusing parts in all this. What would cause GM to cancel their bread-and-butter midsize sedans on the new platform? I highly doubt it would be money, as streamlining the entire midsize line onto one main global platform would be much more cost effective and less expensive in the long term, and likely in the short term as well. If they really are cancelled on EpII, what would GM do in the interim? Allow these two to sit, nearly unchanged for God knows how long? Or could it be that the names will in fact be changed? Doesn't make much business sense for the G6, as it's still very new, and the Malibu, IMO, is a fine name. At any rate, none of this makes any sense, logically or otherwise. And with mightymouse saying that these things just aren't true, things are just getting more confusing. I just really can't see the GMX380s being cancelled in light of the new Camry, Altima, and (one day) Accord, and the new midsize products from Ford and Chrysler. The Aura can't seriously be expected to compete with all of these, especially after being "scaled back," can it?

[El Scorcho]

I think GMX 002 is/was the Ion replacement on Delta

[post="56238"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I thought it was the current Ion.

[mightymouse]

HH: No need to get your underoos in a bunch. Lighten up.

[Northstar]

How can the Aura be scaled back? It's supposed to come out in like 7-8 months (Summer 06). If GM has no competitive cars, then they're screwed. I could care less about trucks, because I doubt I'll ever buy an SUV/pickup/crossover unless I really need the functionality. I just like cars a lot better.

[cmattson]

IT'S OFFICIAL:



Apologies to everyone, esp. Evok (who gave me the crappy idea)

[Ghost Dog]

IT'S OFFICIAL:



Apologies to everyone, esp. Evok (who gave me the crappy idea)

[post="56277"][/post]

Hmm, if Jens out of control send her my way. :)

[cmattson]

I'll let her know when I'm done, k? Thank God my wife doesn't check out the browser history -- I'd be out buying flowers this afternoon.

[wildcat]

Buick is so far unaffected, and Pontiac isn't going away either.

[post="56104"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I wish you hadn't used the words so far. What's left to cut? Hasn't GM damaged Buick enough yet?

[regfootball]

Hmm,  if Jens  out of control send her my way. :)

[post="56279"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

sorry, she didn't get out of my house first. Edited December 10, 2005 by regfootball