Saving the Pontiac GTO

[thegriffon]

Let me make this clear, this is not a rumor, nor is it speculation (well, maybe just a tiny bit), it is a suggestion to GM. If it makes sense to you, and you like these product suggestions then you may want to lobby GM, directly and through your local Pontiac dealer.

Timing for the next major overhaul of the G6 puts it beyond the introduction of Epsilon II, and the current program may be cancelled to ensure strict adherence to the new Global platform. At the same time volume for the V8 GTO has not been high, and the new Holden coupe may diverge from NA requirements. What to do?

As the G6 is currently built in a seperate plant to other NA Epsilon models (Malibu and Aura), I suggest merging the GTO and G6 sedan and coupe and switching both to a rwd platform shared with the Camaro (seperate to the much larger Global RWD platform). All three could be built in the G6s current Orion assembly plant fr maximum capacity utilisation and flexibility between the three models. The GTO would effectivly become the HO V8 version of the G6 coupe. Already both are a similar size, and the GTO would nicely cap off the coupe lineup, and make a cabrio version an easy addition to the GTO. High commonality with the G6 would support the limited sales of the GTO, while sharing the architecture with the Camaro would improve the business case for that new architecture (smaller than the new big sedans' Global Rwd–ex-Zeta).

[91z4me]

Sorry Griff but I can't see GM abandoning the FWD is god droves that won't buy a RWD car. I gotta say that Pontiac needs at least 2 FWD cars, a compact and a midsize. Let G8 or whatevere the VE Pontiac is be the sportier RWD model with the GTO as a coupe stablemate.

[ToniCipriani]

The G6 isn't intended for the GTO muscle car crowd.

[NOS2006]

No! kill the GTO and build me a Firebird with the Camaro :) That would end all the "need RWD" grief for a V6 AND V8. And you could keep the FWD G6.

[turbo200]

RWD! G6 RWD! It's a necessity who's time has come. This makes total sense. Business case is improved for Camaro, and G6 becomes a profit maven. Though, I would like to see G6 coupe be a 5 seater as it is now. GTO coupe to cap off the lineup with a distinct fascia would be perfect. I can't think of anything better than this lineup for the G6. At that time, Buick, Saab, Saturn, and Chevy will all have Epsilons. That's enough of that platform to use. Create G6 on Zegma, as evok called it in another thread and you have a winner!

[z28luvr01]

I think it all depends on whatthey do with Buick....the LaCrosse in particular. All indications (from you - griff - and others) are that they're keeping the LaX and moving it to EpII for the next generation. In the B-P-G conglomeration, that would make the G6 redundant...at least the sedan anyway. So let the people who want a front wheel drive car have the LaX, and make the G6 coupe/sedan/vert RWD....the coupe/vert can be the GTO, and let the sedan be called G6, or maybe bring back Grand Am since Pontiac's latest attempt at alphanumerics has failed miserably.

[CSpec]

I think it all depends on whatthey do with Buick....the LaCrosse in particular. All indications (from you - griff -  and others) are that they're keeping the LaX and moving it to EpII for the next generation.

[post="54561"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Check Ted's GMX code page. :AH-HA_wink:

[thegriffon]

Sorry Griff but I can't see GM abandoning the FWD is god droves that won't buy a RWD car.  I gotta say that Pontiac needs at least 2 FWD cars, a compact and a midsize.  Let G8 or whatevere the VE Pontiac is be the sportier RWD model with the GTO as a coupe stablemate.

[post="54551"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Both Saturn and Chevrolet will have midsize fwd cars, and Buick the V6/V8 LaCrosse. Switching the G6 to "Zegma" improves the business case for the GTO variant (minor exterior changes and a HO V8) and Camaro and gives Pontiac a unique position in the market to distinguish it from Saturn and Chevrolet. Just imagine what would happen to the G6 with the kind of buzz generated by the 300 (and maybe they could call it the Tempest). They only have to sell 10,000 a month to outdo the G6, and with the GTO and cabrio that could easily be surpassed. Look at how many 300s Chrysler sells.

[turbo200]

This unique position in the marketplace will also be unique among foreign makes. No one else offers a RWD sedan/coupe in the G6 price range, excluding the 300 which would be slightly more expensive and cover a different size/sportiness range. I am all for a RWD Tempest! I completely agree with your points griffon.

[Petra]

Awesome idea, providing this would be a seperate platform from The Platform Formerly Known as Zeta. That way, it wouldn't encroach upon the G8's territory. Chances of it happening, though? Sadly, pretty much nil.

[turbo200]

Yes it would be a different platform. The Global RWD platform is Zeta and is totally different from Camaro "Zegma" platform. G6 would be on Zegma, yay Zegma.

[daves87rs]

Nope-that is too much hashing together for me... Plus I do not think that platform could handle what a real GTO could/should be...

[CaddyXLR-V]

I completely agree with thegriffon and turbo200. Why do we need the G6 as is, when we are going to be getting the Aura also? G6 sales will tank once that car is released, assuming they will be in the same price range. Give Pontiac the RWD G6(or Tempest and GTO), and let Chevy cover the low end, and Saturn the higher end FWD midsize segment. GM does not need all 3 competing for the same customers. If the G6 isnt intended for the GTO muscle car crowd, what is it intended for? To compete with Saturn and Chevy? I'm sure "zegma" could handle what a real GTO should be also. This is what Pontiac needs, for product, and image.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Let me make this clear, this is not a rumor, nor is it speculation (well, maybe just a tiny bit), it is a suggestion to GM. If it makes sense to you, and you like these product suggestions then you may want to lobby GM, directly and through your local Pontiac dealer.

Timing for the next major overhaul of the G6 puts it beyond the introduction of Epsilon II, and the current program may be cancelled to ensure strict adherence to the new Global platform. At the same time volume for the V8 GTO has not been high, and the new Holden coupe may diverge from NA requirements. What to do?

As the G6 is currently built in a seperate plant to other NA Epsilon models (Malibu and Aura), I suggest merging the GTO and G6 sedan and coupe and switching both to a rwd platform shared with the Camaro (seperate to the much larger Global RWD platform). All three could be built in the G6s current Orion assembly plant fr maximum capacity utilisation and flexibility between the three models. The GTO would effectivly become the HO V8 version of the G6 coupe. Already both are a similar size, and the GTO would nicely cap off the coupe lineup, and make a cabrio version an easy addition to the GTO. High commonality with the G6 would support the limited sales of the GTO, while sharing the architecture with the Camaro would improve the business case for that new architecture (smaller than the new big sedans' Global Rwd–ex-Zeta).

[post="54544"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In an idealistic world I think this would be perfect...

That leaves Chevrolet and Saturn as GM's mass market VOLUME divisions, and they're the divisions that have the BIGGEST potential for growth.

And I'd love to see a hot RWD Pontiac line that competes with BMW as GM's TRUE performance division.

On the other hand, a switch to RWD would most certainly mean a LOWER (overall) volume Pontiac division, especially from a few years back... Hmmm....

RWD! G6 RWD! It's a necessity who's time has come. This makes total sense. Business case is improved for Camaro, and G6 becomes a profit maven. Though, I would like to see G6 coupe be a 5 seater as it is now. GTO coupe to cap off the lineup with a distinct fascia would be perfect. I can't think of anything better than this lineup for the G6. At that time, Buick, Saab, Saturn, and Chevy will all have Epsilons. That's enough of that platform to use. Create G6 on Zegma, as evok called it in another thread and you have a winner!

I agree... BUT it would have to be a car worthy of the GTO designation... I don't want a lame duck G6 with a new nose.... I want an aggressively designed, Pontiac-mean G6 with an even meaner GTO that'll eat performance cars for dinner.

and Camaro and gives Pontiac a unique position in the market to distinguish it from Saturn and Chevrolet.

I agree 100%. BUT, GM would have to do enough to differentiate the Camaro and GTO so they don't cannabalize each other like the Camaro and T/A did...

[Cory Wolfe]

I have mixed feelings as to what to say... Switching the G6 to RWD is taking a huge risk with sales. You all know it. It also risks keeping the price acceptable. Another risk is for it to not increase its size. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it's risky. Taking that risk would make enthusiasts very happy, regardless. I would even be happy. That and I don't think the GTO should just be a slightly more upscale G6. It would be a throwback to how the original GTO was and the Nissan Skyline/GTR up until recently, however. I don't know... If the G6's price can stay close to where it is now, it can still sell at the same level, it stays around the same size, and the GTO has enough differntiation... Yes, go for it unless a platform doesn't exist yet. Still, part of me knows FWD doesn't have much of a disadvantage to RWD and FWD almost always sells better and for less. Part of me wants it to be a FWD Grand Am. Part of me wants the Firebird to return instead of the GTO. The majority of me just wants anything that'll give Pontiac success... BTW, part of me wants a compact RWD Pontiac instead of any of that... :D :P

[Northstar]

This is an interesting proposition. A RWD G6 would work, but I'm worried the cost might not be able to be kept down enough if it had the same basic suspension as the GTO (which would be somewhat expensive I think). If the price could be kept down, then I'd be all for it, and then Pontiac could just import the Holden sedan for something above it with minimal changes so that it wouldn't cost them much money to develop. However, I think the GTO should have somewhat different sheetmetal than the G6 coupe. I don't see any reason for someone to buy a V8 G6 coupe (what the GTO could be) if they could have a kickass Camaro for the same price or possibly less.

[turbo200]

Who's to say the G6 itself wouldn't have just as much of a kickass design as the Camaro, only with a different Pontiac flavor. If G6 were to be on zegma, it would be able to start at just slightly higher than Camaro prices. Gm won't release Camaro for a price a lot higher than 22k. Having G6 and GTO on it only makes the costs of the units go down significantly lower. I am also tired of all RWD detractors. Dammit, can't I have som fun too? You guys have the whole freakin lower market to yourselves. Isn't there room for one fun RWD sedan in the 20k segment? Also, the 300 has proven RWD is acceptable to the masses, at a higher price than your average G6 would go for. I will use that line as many times as I need to.

[Northstar]

Well, I would assume the G6 coupe would look like the G6 sedan but with two doors (basically as it does now), and there's no way any sedan will look as sweet as the Camaro we saw yesterday.

[turbo200]

Also, talking about sheetmetal differentiations, it's self-defeating since (a) this is far ahead and no one knows what GM plans (B) GM, I beleive and hope has learned this lesson. With the attention they are putting to design, I think they understand design and character are the fundamental ways of extracting an image for brands from the cars they make. Bottom line, don't worry about that kind of issue, it's too far away, and the new GM should take care of it, or they better or I'm sure we'd all pitch a fit. Edited December 7, 2005 by turbo200

[turbo200]

you're right, but the G6 coupe with five seats would look different from that proposed sedan, and probably just as killer [though it's hard to imagine] as the Camaro. And sedans can look pretty badass too, right? Edited December 7, 2005 by turbo200

[ehaase]

How certain is anyone that GM is going to develop two more RWD platforms in addition to Kappa and Sigma? Is everyone absolutely certain that the Camaro, if produced, is going to use a different platform from potential RWD Chevrolet and Buick sedans?

[turbo200]

I suggest merging the GTO and G6 sedan and coupe and switching both to a rwd platform shared with the Camaro (seperate to the much larger Global RWD platform).



High commonality with the G6 would support the limited sales of the GTO, while sharing the architecture with the Camaro would improve the business case for that new architecture (smaller than the new big sedans' Global Rwd–ex-Zeta).

[post="54544"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This is all solid insider information. The Camaro will get approval based on that car's ability to garner good reaction for GM at NAIAS.

[Northstar]

Is everyone absolutely certain that the Camaro, if produced, is going to use a different platform from potential RWD Chevrolet and Buick sedans?

[post="54680"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, that's why it was delayed. They decided that a Camaro wouldn't be enough of a Camaro if it was based on a large sedan chassis.

[Carguy]

Make a COUPE version of the next CTS and restyle it for Pontiac as a 35K 450HP SB V8 powered GTO! Then do a 550HP 45K JUDGE version of it also both with styling like the late 1960's versions but MORE DRAMATIC and MEANER LOOKING!!

[corvette_dude729]

If they did make G6 RWD, would they make all the G6's RWD. If they did, what would they do about the four cylinder one would there be a RWD four cylinder? Kinda pointless

[ToniCipriani]

Probably by then they will drop the 4-cylinder altogether for a smaller model with RWD and 4-cylinder if the G6 does go RWD. At least I'm hoping so they will have something under the G6.

[Sixty8panther]

WHAT? "Yes! Keep the G6 fwd, but make the GTO a V8 version of the coupe" :blink: This is a joke right? Anyone who would vote for a FWD GTO is a prime candidate for Public Transportation and probably went to the kind of sporting events where everyone gets a medal. The GTO should be RWD and V8 only. These two should never be open to discusion. Edited December 10, 2005 by Sixty8panther

[Flybrian]

The GTO should be RWD and V8 only. These two should never be open to discusion.

[post="56020"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm in favor of a 4-cyl hybrid/Diesel GTO Club Coupe.

[Sixty8panther]

How about a 4dr Coupe version like the new MB? :P :rolleyes:

[Flybrian]

Only if its a Sedanette. If not, then it must be a Club Coupe. Some monikers are so woefully outdated and irrelevent they need to return. Along with 4cyl Diesels with 128hp.

[ehaase]

Perhaps a case could be made that GM should use FWD only for crossovers and entry level 4 cylinder economy cars and move everything else to RWD. GM keeps trying to compete with the Camry/Accord and keeps falling short. If it weren't for fleet sales, how successful would the Impala be?

[ToniCipriani]

WHAT? "Yes! Keep the G6 fwd, but make the GTO a V8 version of the coupe"  :blink: This is a joke right?
Anyone who would vote for a FWD GTO is a prime candidate for Public Transportation and probably went to the kind of sporting events where everyone gets a medal.

The GTO should be RWD and V8 only. These two should never be open to discusion.

[post="56020"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ditto. Whoever came up with the stupid idea of moving the GTO FWD shouldn't just be considered for Public Transportation, but should burn in hell, as Steve Jobs said for pirates.

Although each division still should have one or two FWD models, just to cater everybody. FWD and RWD model strategies should be planned wisely. I just don't hope GM will run into the same situation they did in the 80s, thinking FWD, Pushrod V6 and Automatics, then start putting them on everything, but this time converting everything to RWD.

How about a 4dr Coupe version like the new MB? :P :rolleyes:

[post="56031"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

German car manufacturers ought to be burned these days, to preserve the morality and sanity of mankind. A coupe is a coupe. 2-doors.

[Robert Hall]

Keep FWD models for the masses and Avis, and build a RWD GTO... the question is, what platform?

[thegriffon]

As has been mentione before GM will have plenty of fwd midsize sedans - the budget Malibu, sporty Aura and premium LaCrosse. Why not give Pontiac something unique with a rwd sedan and coupe to underpin the lower-volume GTO. No other company can do this in the US, but GM's breadth of brands enables them to offer something unique through Pontiac - an entire lineup of sporty rwd cars at an affordable price (Toyota with their five sales networks—Toyota, Toyopet, Corolla, Netz and Lexus—does something similar in Japan with the Brevis, Mark X and Crown etc.).

[thegriffon]

I assume the 42 "Seperate GTO" votes are split between those who want a fwd and rwd G6 (Tempest if you like). Phrased differently on GMI but with fewer total votes the vote is split between evenly between related and unrelated rwd G6 and GTO models (70%) and 30% for a fwd G6. sensibly no-one there has voted for a fwd GTO. If only a few of those people would have bought another vehicle instead of the Tempest then Pontiac would easily match the current G6 sales, if not far surpass it.

[thegriffon]

P.S. Anyone like to post the revised GMI version of the poll at other boards, say LS1tech or VWVortex? The more people see it and vote for a rwd G6/Tempest, the more likely GM will notice and pay attention. I wonder if we can get a comment from the fbodfather?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Another reason why I think the G6/Tempest needs to go RWD, is to help spread the costs for the Camaro and GTO. That, and we cant have either a Camaro or a GTO sedan. Could it also be used for the BLS instead of Epsilon? The GTO is to expensive as a stand alone model, probably both for GM, and for consumers. Even if the RWD G6 doesnt meet the numbers the currect G6 makes, which would probably offset as soon as the Aura is on sale, they will probably sell with a better margin as long as GM gets the styling right. I think the G6 will be canabalized by the Aura once its released anyway, so even comparing a RWD G6 to the current G6 sales doesnt make sense either, because even the current G6 wont make that same level of sales when competing with the Aura. Also, I dont think a RWD G6 would be canabalized by the Aura like the current G6 will. I hope this gains alot of support within GM

[thegriffon]

How about a 4dr Coupe version like the new MB? :P :rolleyes:

[post="56031"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Isn't that what they build already?

[Brandon Lutz]

Bring in a new Tempst. Give it a V6, RWD, option for an A6 or M6 and give it some nice options. Then offer the GTO variant of it with an LS2, with comparable options. Maybe offer AWD for our friends of north on the V6 models. Give it some good styling and class leading quality. Also offer a covertible version for both. Edited December 14, 2005 by Brandon Lutz

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Yes-combine the style of the Mercedes-Benz CLS and the 1997-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix (plus a far better interior, high standard/optional equipment, decent passenger and cargo room, etc.) BUT DO NOT CALL IT GTO! I agree Sixty8Panther-GTO must remain rear-wheel-drive, V-8-engine, 6-speed OD manual (or 5-6-speed OD electronic automatic and/or TAPShift II transmissions), along with 2-door hardtop coupe and 2-door soft-top convertible body styles-name sedans and sports wagons LeMans. Keep it separate from G6, keep it front or all-wheel-drive, but with different engines.