The New GM... And Thanks for Staying Bobby Boy

[Cmicasa the Great]

Some people here on NET are marred by stupidity and so much ignorance it isn't even funny.

Since Lutz's arrival we have see GM go from a company that produced mediocre vehicles that were reliable, and often attractive but never exuded the norm in terms of quality and performance. We have, because of Lutz's product direction, Welburn's design direction, and Andrew Farah's engineering direction, a company that hasn't once yet, in the past 5 years put out vehicle that didn't win some sort of acclaim. Corvettes are considered Ferrari beaters, Cadillacs are comparable to BMWs and Benzes, Malibus are more efficient and better styled than CamCords, Cobalts are as efficient as Civics and Corollas and SS models outperform VWs and Mazda3s. Enclaves and Tahoes are more efficient and have better ergonomics than Highlanders, Pilots, and Sequoias. Silverado/Sierras continue to eat the Tundra, Titan, and Ridgeline's BREAKFAST, LUNCH, and DINNER. And that's just for starters.

We have the new Camaro, which is not only coming out the gate swing for Mustangs, Challengers, 370Zs, and G37s in looks and build quality, but also much needed sales. Equinox, a stunner debuting, larger and more efficient than the smaller Rav4, CRV, and Rogue. We have the upcoming SRX which is being compared to the X5 in performance, the RX in comfort, the Q5 in quality, and the the OLD FX in looks. The Volt is coming after so many called it Vaporware. The Cruze is looking to be capable of finally doing what the durable Cavalier, and efficient, competent, but plain Cobalt failed to do: Bring respect to the Domestic Small Car effort. We have the Viva and Spark coming next year. The fantastic Lacrosse is ready to do for Buick what the CTS has done for Cadillac; make it cool again.

I'm sorry to Pontiac fans but U were worshiping a brand that hadn't independently produced a REAL performance car in the vein of the GTO for quite a while. Pontiac has been nothing but a rebadged Chevy/Holden for the past years, but with a reputation that seems to be more associated with Trailer Park Easy Ass than Performance. I own a G6 and as much as I love it, when I saw the Aura and then Malibu debut.. with no improvements to the G6 I knu that the writing was in the wall. Pontiac was taking a dirt nap" soon.

In regards DIRECTLY to concerns about another Oldsmobile type loss of customers to the competition:

As long as GM doesn't screw up the conquest of Pontiac/Saturn customers.. by moving them properly over to Chevy/Buick I think U can rest assured that they will pull it off. The issue with Olds to Buick existed because GM never did anything to make the Buicks as attractive to Olds customers as the OLDSMOBILE cars had been. Buick had nothing as cool as the Alero, or Intrigue, or Aurora. Even the Rainier looked WEAK compared to the Bravada. But now... as long as Buick continues on this trend of giving us these attractive rides like the Lacrosse and Regal.. not to mention the Enclave and possible smaller CUV.. Buick can effectively take on Saturn customers. Chevy taking Pontiac customers should be a no brainer.

I'm sorry but truth is as bad as 2009 was for GM, it may have just been the best year in it's 100+ year history. Despite Forum goers silly, trolling rants about it being "controlled" by the Government, I'm seeing a GM emergence that will dominate again. Siting the move by GM to shudder the damaged, redundant Pontiac brand and move to building more efficient cars as a tell-tale sign of President Obama's strong hand. I have news for those fools... cars like the Volt and 40+MPG Cruze were announced well before President Obama ever took the pen from Mr. Bush, and logic tells me that even the foreign made vehicles will have to augment their strategies to meet GLOBAL fuel /emission standards forthcoming.

Some moron actually made an analogy between the Post Office and GM. Siting the Post Office as being Government owned and inefficient. I'd love to see GM operate as well. An entity capable of managing over 750K employees and billions of pieces of mail per day.

[Blake Noble]

My problem with GM doesn't just lie with their lack of products which only offer one flavor to the consumer, but a good deal of their management, which makes promises only to fail to deliver on them. Fritz The Ditz Henderson is not and will not be the CEO that will be GM's savior like Alan Mually has been for Ford.

[Cmicasa the Great]

My problem with GM doesn't just lie with their lack of products which only offer one flavor to the consumer, but a good deal of their management, which makes promises only to fail to deliver on them. Fritz The Ditz Henderson is not and will not be the CEO that will be GM's savior like Alan Mually has been for Ford.

Sorry but I haven't jumped on the Mulaly Bandwagon yet. The Fusion and Taurus are nice, as is the hybrid technology that they have in the Hybrid version.. but Ecoboost was done 4 years ago but called ECOTEC.. specifically in the Astra VXR/OPC, Solstice GXp/Sky RL.

Truth is the Malibu is a better car than the Fusion and could easily beat it's fuel economy (Fusion 34MPG vs MAlibu's 33MPG) by putting the 2.4L Di in the car. EASILY.

I am also perplexed by the "ONE Flavor" comment. Please explain

[Blake Noble]

Sorry but I haven't jumped on the Mulaly Bandwagon yet. The Fusion and Taurus are nice, as is the hybrid technology that they have in the Hybrid version.. but Ecoboost was done 4 years ago but called ECOTEC.. specifically in the Astra VXR/OPC, Solstice GXp/Sky RL.

Truth is the Malibu is a better car than the Fusion and could easily beat it's fuel economy (Fusion 34MPG vs MAlibu's 33MPG) by putting the 2.4L Di in the car. EASILY.

I am also perplexed by the "ONE Flavor" comment. Please explain

Ford has proven that it's committed to making vehicles that far exceed the competition. The Fusion Hybrid for example far surpasses the Prius and makes the Malibu Hybrid, for the record, look like a joke.

GM sells one kind of car: boring front-drive sedans, with your choice of four-cylinder or V6 engines with automatic transmissions only and in sizes small, medium, and large.

Sure, there's the Camaro, which is a rear-drive coupe, but it's completely wrong for a sports coupe like the Camaro should be, another example of GM screwing the pooch. It's almost as big and actually heavier than my 1972 Cutlass Supreme, a car that is full-sized by today's standards and built completely out of steel. I have proved that in previous posts and I don't care one bit to repost it.

The G8 will soon be no more and, come on, I will never have the money to buy a new CTS for a long time. Even if I did, it doesn't completely appeal to me.

There's nothing at GM for a guy like me to buy: I would love to purchase and own a lightweight, rear-drive coupe with a manual transmission with great styling and at least a V6 engine with decent power. I might would accept a sedan if it was just right. GM could build it, and even said they were going to at one time, but nope ... I'm left out in the rain. Maybe when the Alpha-based F6 Camaro makes it debut sometime in the far future somewhere over the rainbow I might reconsider GM, proved it doesn't weigh two tons and can be outran by a Cobalt SS Turbo.

Ford has a car similar to what I want, though: it's called a Mustang.

Edited July 20, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[ocnblu]

Hey Cmicasa, it's been a while since we've heard from you over here. Feel free to post your views here any time!

[Cmicasa the Great]

Ford has proven that it's committed to making vehicles that far exceed the competition. The Fusion Hybrid for example far surpasses the Prius and makes the Malibu Hybrid, for the record, look like a joke.

GM sells one kind of car: boring front-drive sedans, with your choice of four-cylinder or V6 engines with automatic transmissions only and in sizes small, medium, and large.

Sure, there's the Camaro, which is a rear-drive coupe, but it's completely wrong for a sports coupe like the Camaro should be, another example of GM screwing the pooch. It's almost as big and actually heavier than my 1972 Cutlass Supreme, a car that is full-sized by today's standards and built completely out of steel. I have proved that in previous posts and I don't care one bit to repost it.

The G8 will soon be no more and, come on, I will never have the money to buy a new CTS for a long time. Even if I did, it doesn't completely appeal to me.

There's nothing at GM for a guy like me to buy: I would love to purchase and own a lightweight, rear-drive coupe with a manual transmission with great styling and at least a V6 engine with decent power. I might would accept a sedan if it was just right. GM could build it, and even said they were going to at one time, but nope ... I'm left out in the rain. Maybe when the Alpha-based F6 Camaro makes it debut sometime in the far future somewhere over the rainbow I might reconsider GM, proved it doesn't weigh two tons and can be outran by a Cobalt SS Turbo.

Ford has a car similar to what I want, though: it's called a Mustang.

I will certainly give Ford props in their implementation of the Fusion Hybrid. But do U seriously think that GM killed the Malibu Mild Hybrid with no intent of pushing out BAS II in the coming months? BAS II promises a 25% boost in efficiency over the BAS I system. That's not including the inclusion of the NEW DIRECT INJECTED 2.4L coupled with a 6Speed instead of the 4 speed the Mild Hybrid used.

I also find it laughable that U mention that GM supposedly has only ONE KIND OF CAR, but believe that FORD has a real variety of vehicles. IN FACT.. Ford has only ONE RWD, non FWD car in its line... the aforementioned Mustang.

There is no need to even bring Cadillac into this. The Chevy line-up alone has two RWD vehicles. Truth is... for CAFE purposes RWD is simply not the way of the Automotive world in mainstream vehicles. Adaptable AWD is a better solution in terms of handling and performance. The Haldex system can be manipulated to perform in a superior manner than RWD.

Mini-Compact: Spark

Sub-Compact: Viva (Aveo)

Compact: Cruze

EV Mid-size: Volt

Mid-Size: Malibu (redone on SWB EPII 2011)

Large: Impala (on LWB EPII) (personally I'd call it Malibu "L" for sales purposes)

Mini-CUV: Orlando (HHR)

Small-CUV: Equinox

Large CUV: Traverse

Sport Coupe: Camaro

Sports Car: Vette

Ford Line:

Mini-Compact: None

Sub-Compact: Festiva

Compact: Focus

EV Mid-size: NONE

Mid-Size: Fusion

Large: Taurus

Mini-CUV: NONE

Small-CUV: Edge

Large CUV: Flex

Sport Coupe: Mustang

Sports Car: NONE

Interesting thing is that the only Mustang I would ever consider, the GT500, weighs the same thing as the Camaro SS. But it still doesn't have IRS, despite it having 115HP more and it still doesn't perform that much better than the SS... and it still costs damn near $50K compared to the SS's $34K.

I'm sorry but this is one for the books... I seriously am awestruck that a 426HP $34K Camaro, weighing only 15 lbs less... ran with a $50K 540HP Mustang (that's 114HP more)

Camaro Mustang

0-30 mph 1.9 sec 2.0 sec

0-40 2.6 2.7

0-50 3.5 3.7

0-60 4.5 4.6

0-70 5.7 5.5

0-80 7.2 6.8

0-90 8.7 8.2

0-100 10.5 9.7

Quarter mile 12.9 sec @ 110.7 mph 12.8 sec @ 115.3 mph MT COMPARISON

YES the Mustang beat the Camaro... by 1/10th of a sec and 4 MPH. That is pathetic, and basically says that if the Camaro even remotely got the LSA (560HP without the "Quiet Tuned" exhaust from Cadillac restricting it) it would MURDER the GT500. Fact is that a Camaro with just the Base Corvette's 436HP LS3 would at least equal the GT500, altho I'm betting it would whip it.

[chevelle454]

I don't agree with Yellowjacket at all about Ford. Mercury is nothing more than a Ford with a new grill and taillights. Lincoln is also just a bunch of FWD rebadged Fords. In the real world the Ecoboost wll not live up to its Fuel economy promises. I saw an article and the non-ecoboost Taurus got something like 15.9 MPG. The Fusions Hybrid milage is impressive but I don't care anything about Hybrids.I just don't see what people see in Ford. Gm does have some dumb rebadges like the G3 and G5. the G5 wouldn't be so bad if it were sold with the turbo, since Pontiac was supposed to be the excitement division. I will agree that Fritz has to go. Ford is the one that builds generic fwd cars, even its premium division is nothing but rebadges.

[Intrepidation]

Mini-Compact: Spark (which may not even come to NA)

Sub-Compact: Viva,currently POS Aveo

Compact: Cruze, Currently Outdated Cobalt

EV: Volt $40,000 or so, it's also a compact, not a midsize.

Mid-Size: Malibu (redone on SWB EPII 2011)

Large: ancient, W-Body Impala, last I heard until 2012

Mini-CUV: Orlando (HHR)

Small-CUV: Equinox

Large CUV: Traverse

Sport Coupe: Camaro

Sports Car: Vette

Ford Line:

Mini-Compact: None in NA yet, Ka in EU

Sub-Compact: Fiesta

Compact: Focus, to be redesigned with EU Focus

EV: None announced for production yet

Mid-Size: Fusion

Midsize Hybrid: Fusion Hybrid

Large: Taurus

Mini-CUV: Escape

Mini CUV Hybrid: Escape Hybrid

Small-CUV: Edge

Large CUV: Flex

Sport Coupe: Mustang

Sports Car: None since the GT

[A Horse With No Name]

Some moron actually made an analogy between the Post Office and GM. Siting the Post Office as being Government owned and inefficient. I'd love to see GM operate as well. An entity capable of managing over 750K employees and billions of pieces of mail per day.

+1

Chris

[Blake Noble]

I will certainly give Ford props in their implementation of the Fusion Hybrid. But do U seriously think that GM killed the Malibu Mild Hybrid with no intent of pushing out BAS II in the coming months? BAS II promises a 25% boost in efficiency over the BAS I system. That's not including the inclusion of the NEW DIRECT INJECTED 2.4L coupled with a 6Speed instead of the 4 speed the Mild Hybrid used.

There hasn't been much that much buzz about a BAS II Malibu making a debut. Maybe it will happen when the Epsilon II Malibu shows its face to the world, but that's still sometime away and a few years behind the competition.

I also find it laughable that U mention that GM supposedly has only ONE KIND OF CAR, but believe that FORD has a real variety of vehicles. IN FACT.. Ford has only ONE RWD, non FWD car in its line... the aforementioned Mustang.

Laugh all day long boy. Where did I say Ford offered a variety of vehicles? Yeah, that's right, I didn't. You misunderstand me. I praise Ford because they have shown they are committed to making a quality product that is competitive, if not superior to the competition in at least one way.

There is no need to even bring Cadillac into this. The Chevy line-up alone has two RWD vehicles.

Okay, yeah. One is a two-ton, full-sized coupe passing itself off as a pony car and the other -- the Corvette -- is so expensive for the average middle-class buyer, it's moot to buy one unless you have money to burn.

Truth is... for CAFE purposes RWD is simply not the way of the Automotive world in mainstream vehicles. Adaptable AWD is a better solution in terms of handling and performance. The Haldex system can be manipulated to perform in a superior manner than RWD.

Oh, so you've bought into that line of delusional bull$h! too?

For the 1,096,647,565,584,324th time:

2010 Buick Lacrosse CXS:

FWD EPII

Powertrain: 3.6L DI V6 280 hp w./ 6-speed automatic

Curb Weight: 4065 lbs

EPA Est: 17/27

2009 Cadillac CTS 3.6DI:

RWD Sigma

Powertrain: 3.6L DI V6 306 hp w./ 6-speed automatic

Curb Weight: 3874 lbs

EPA: 18/26

2010 Chevrolet Camaro 2LT:

RWD Modified Zeta

Powertrain: 3.6L DI V6 306 hp w./ 6-speed automatic

Curb Weight: 3728

EPA: 17/29

2009 Chevrolet Malibu LTZ

FWD EPI

Powertrain: 3.6L DOHC V6 252 hp w./ 6-speed automatic

Curb Weight: 3649 (This is for 4-cyl)

EPA: 18/26

I believe your point against rear-drive cars does not hold water.

Mini-Compact: Spark

Sub-Compact: Viva (Aveo)

Compact: Cruze

EV Mid-size: Volt

Mid-Size: Malibu (redone on SWB EPII 2011)

Large: Impala (on LWB EPII) (personally I'd call it Malibu "L" for sales purposes)

Mini-CUV: Orlando (HHR)

Small-CUV: Equinox

Large CUV: Traverse

Sport Coupe: Camaro

Sports Car: Vette

Ford Line:

Mini-Compact: None

Sub-Compact: Festiva

Compact: Focus

EV Mid-size: NONE

Mid-Size: Fusion

Large: Taurus

Mini-CUV: NONE

Small-CUV: Edge

Large CUV: Flex

Sport Coupe: Mustang

Sports Car: NONE

I didn't need to be educated on the two automaker's mainstream offerings, thanks.

Interesting thing is that the only Mustang I would ever consider, the GT500, weighs the same thing as the Camaro SS. But it still doesn't have IRS, despite it having 115HP more and it still doesn't perform that much better than the SS... and it still costs damn near $50K compared to the SS's $34K.

I'm sorry but this is one for the books... I seriously am awestruck that a 426HP $34K Camaro, weighing only 15 lbs less... ran with a $50K 540HP Mustang (that's 114HP more)

Camaro Mustang

0-30 mph 1.9 sec 2.0 sec

0-40 2.6 2.7

0-50 3.5 3.7

0-60 4.5 4.6

0-70 5.7 5.5

0-80 7.2 6.8

0-90 8.7 8.2

0-100 10.5 9.7

Quarter mile 12.9 sec @ 110.7 mph 12.8 sec @ 115.3 mph MT COMPARISON

YES the Mustang beat the Camaro... by 1/10th of a sec and 4 MPH. That is pathetic, and basically says that if the Camaro even remotely got the LSA (560HP without the "Quiet Tuned" exhaust from Cadillac restricting it) it would MURDER the GT500. Fact is that a Camaro with just the Base Corvette's 436HP LS3 would at least equal the GT500, altho I'm betting it would whip it.

Here's the thing: I don't have the money to pony up for a new V8 Camaro or Mustang, so I would therefore purchase a V6 model. And next year, the Mustang will be upgraded with a new V6 engine that will give it performance surpassing the V6 Camaro.

Don't assume, ask.

Edited July 21, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Cmicasa the Great]

There hasn't been much that much buzz about a BAS II Malibu making a debut. Maybe it will happen when the Epsilon II Malibu shows its face to the world, but that's still sometime away and a few years behind the competition.

There has been heavy speculation that the reason for the death of the BAS I hybrids is because BAS II is on the move. I think also the VOLT is proof positive that GM is years ahead of teh competition. Hey... just outta curiosity where are Ford's 22MPG City Expedition... or 32MPG Hwy Escape??? Even the Hybrid can't seem to beat the new Equinox's MPGs on the road.. where it counts in a vehicle like this.

Laugh all day long boy. Where did I say Ford offered a variety of vehicles? Yeah, that's right, I didn't. You misunderstand me. I praise Ford because they have shown they are committed to making a quality product that is competitive, if not superior to the competition in at least one way

WhatevertheEFF.

U said "GM sells one kind of car: boring front-drive sedans, with your choice of four-cylinder or V6 engines with automatic transmissions only and in sizes small, medium, and large."

(I quoted U).. which was wrong since they sell a multitude of cars while Ford sells exactly what U said GM ONLY sells.. with the exception of the Mustang. I'M STILL LAUGHING MY ASS OFF.

Okay, yeah. One is a two-ton, full-sized coupe passing itself off as a pony car and the other -- the Corvette -- is so expensive for the average middle-class buyer, it's moot to buy one unless you have money to burn.

The Camaro is still somehow managing to run with Ford's lighter 540HP Mustang with a 114HP deficency... hmmmm As for the Corvette.. I bought my first new one when I was 23. I was just outta the Air Force, and in undergrad. SmartMoney helpped me on that one tho.

I didn't need to be educated on the two automaker's mainstream offerings, thanks.

Based on the reason why I even responded to the un-knowledgeable post.. I'd say U did.

Here's the thing: I don't have the money to pony up for a new V8 Camaro or Mustang, so I would therefore purchase a V6 model. And next year, the Mustang will be upgraded with a new V6 engine that will give it performance surpassing the V6 Camaro.

Because Chevy doesn't have anything in it's V6 program that could be bumped up to beat the Mustang AGAIN? This kinda reminds me of BMW fans getting all exited because the M5 is getting a 550-600HP engine in 2011 or 12 to finally beat the CTS-V.. because GM doesn't have a 600HP version of the LS engine.. OH WAIT!!!

BTW... The 3.6L without any forced induction is fully capable of 350HP, but has been stifled for the sake of the NORTHSTAR program in the STS. It selling for $10K over its 3.6L version.

Don't assume, ask.

What??? No matter... I wouldn't really be interested anyway.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Cmicasa the Great

[Blake Noble]

There has been heavy speculation that the reason for the death of the BAS I hybrids is because BAS II is on the move. I think also the VOLT is proof positive that GM is years ahead of teh competition. Hey... just outta curiosity where are Ford's 22MPG City Expedition... or 32MPG Hwy Escape??? Even the Hybrid can't seem to beat the new Equinox's MPGs on the road.. where it counts in a vehicle like this.

Two problems with the Volt:

1.) It's going to be expensive. The price tag, while it might not turn many buyers away, will turn away a few buyers interested in the car, even with applicable tax breaks.

2.) It's an answer to the horrible Prius $h!box, which has been around since 1997. The Volt won't debut until next year. GM has even admitted its been behind in the game when it comes to alternative powertrains in mainstream vehicles. (Sure, there was the EV1, but you could only lease one and couldn't actually own one. GM owned all examples of the EV1 produced. That's not exactly what I'd consider as a mainsteam car.)

As for BAS II, we haven't heard an update on its status in a while. Yeah, sure, it's coming, but not until the 2010 calendar date GM announced last year, provided it wasn't put on the back burner during the bailout talks. Like you said, it's all speculation.

As for the Escape hybrid, I would expect Ford to answer the Equinox's non-hybrid mpg ratings in the near future with either a MCE of the current model or with the next-generation model.

WhatevertheEFF.

U said "GM sells one kind of car: boring front-drive sedans, with your choice of four-cylinder or V6 engines with automatic transmissions only and in sizes small, medium, and large."

(I quoted U).. which was wrong since they sell a multitude of cars while Ford sells exactly what U said GM ONLY sells.. with the exception of the Mustang. I'M STILL LAUGHING MY ASS OFF.

Okay, first off all, if you want to say the word "f@#k," just say the damn word. We're not in middle school anymore.

Second of all, if you want to act like an ass and ignore what I told you, go right ahead.

The Camaro is still somehow managing to run with Ford's lighter 540HP Mustang with a 114HP deficency... hmmmm As for the Corvette.. I bought my first new one when I was 23. I was just outta the Air Force, and in undergrad. SmartMoney helpped me on that one tho.

Yet, a Cobalt SS Turbo was faster around the Nurburgring than the Camaro SS and is faster to 60 than the V6 model. That's just not right.

Yeah, I'm not selling my soul to the military and signing my death certificate just so I can buy a Corvette, no offense.

Based on the reason why I even responded to the un-knowledgeable post.. I'd say U did.

HA! Now who is pretending to know who hmmmm ... ? :rotflmao:

By the way, your little lesson on the blackboard was wrong. Dodgefan had to go back and correct it.

Better go back and hit the books and sharpen your pencils. You couldn't teach a dog to blink.

Because Chevy doesn't have anything in it's V6 program that could be bumped up to beat the Mustang AGAIN? This kinda reminds me of BMW fans getting all exited because the M5 is getting a 550-600HP engine in 2011 or 12 to finally beat the CTS-V.. because GM doesn't have a 600HP version of the LS engine.. OH WAIT!!!

BTW... The 3.6L without any forced induction is fully capable of 350HP, but has been stifled for the sake of the NORTHSTAR program in the STS. It selling for $10K over its 3.6L version.

The Northstar will be no more soon. GM might want to think about bringing out that 350hp 3.6L V6 if it wants to keep its title as offering the best V6 pony car on the market.

What??? No matter... I wouldn't really be interested anyway.

[Z-06]

No personal attacks please. Attack the premises and conclusions.

[A Horse With No Name]

Biggest thing I see is that both Ford and GM have some of their mojo back, whish is a good thing.

Besides, I think everyone is missing the point. This change in the auto industry we are going through has been coming for a very long time, as I said in another post.

The real test will come in 2015, when the next generation of cars come out. Let's see them both build on what they have and then move forward.

Chris

[regfootball]

regarding the ecoboost. some reviews of various ecoboost cars are showing 25+ mpg on their testing. the 15.9 is anomoly from what i have seen. the epa numbers certainly show equal or greater mpg and give all the added hp.

regarding rwd and fwd mpg. it is true a camaro has better mpg than say a malibu ltz v6. but keep in mind, chevy is selling the v6 malibu as an option, and low volume. if you compare base car to base car which represents most sales volume, chevy would rather sell the 4 cylinder fwd malibu with its 33 mpg than say the g8 v6 with its lower mpg. the theory being a few things. one, if 80% of the cars sold have the 33mpg as opposed to 26 mpg or 29 or whatever, it helps cafe. two, people need a car no matter what and their pocketbooks will determine what they spend. if chevy can extort 25 grand for a 4 cylinder with fwd which is much cheaper to make than a rwd v6, they will profit more.

the ideal for meeting cafe and profits is to convince the public to max their car payment on the 4 cylinder fwd cheap to build vehicle instead of say an 8 cylinder camaro. but if you want say a G8 GXP, then they must charge you for it since it costs them more to make and gets about 1/2 the fuel economy.

they want to move it to a scenario where they force 95% of the public to buy the 4 popper commuters and still extort maximum dollars from their pocketbook.. And if you want to be the 5% that protests loudly they will stick it to you greater than ever before for that extra horsepower and refinement you really want.

its like organic foods. if you are steafast about needing the organic foods thing, then you will pay dearly.

Edited July 22, 2009 by regfootball

[Cmicasa the Great]

Two problems with the Volt:

1.) It's going to be expensive. The price tag, while it might not turn many buyers away, will turn away a few buyers interested in the car, even with applicable tax breaks.

2.) It's an answer to the horrible Prius $h!box, which has been around since 1997. The Volt won't debut until next year. GM has even admitted its been behind in the game when it comes to alternative powertrains in mainstream vehicles. (Sure, there was the EV1, but you could only lease one and couldn't actually own one. GM owned all examples of the EV1 produced. That's not exactly what I'd consider as a mainsteam car.)

As for BAS II, we haven't heard an update on its status in a while. Yeah, sure, it's coming, but not until the 2010 calendar date GM announced last year, provided it wasn't put on the back burner during the bailout talks. Like you said, it's all speculation.

As for the Escape hybrid, I would expect Ford to answer the Equinox's non-hybrid mpg ratings in the near future with either a MCE of the current model or with the next-generation model.

Such is the constant cycle of competition.

Okay, first off all, if you want to say the word "f@#k," just say the damn word. We're not in middle school anymore.

Second of all, if you want to act like an ass and ignore what I told you, go right ahead.

U still didn't address the point.. only my language and attitude. Good Job

Yet, a Cobalt SS Turbo was faster around the Nurburgring than the Camaro SS and is faster to 60 than the V6 model. That's just not right.

Why isn't it right? A Corvette ZR1 is faster to 60 than an ENZO Ferrari. What's your point? The Cobalt SS is also almost as fast as the Mustang GT V8. A simple factory backed upgrade to 295HP/340lbs will remedy that.

Yeah, I'm not selling my soul to the military and signing my death certificate just so I can buy a Corvette, no offense.

No offense taken... I didn't do it for the Corvette.. I did it for my COUNTRY. But after talking to half of the Sell-Outs here on the web, I wish that I hadn't. Most Americans aren't worth being "Defended."

The Northstar will be no more soon. GM might want to think about bringing out that 350hp 3.6L V6 if it wants to keep its title as offering the best V6 pony car on the market.

I'm sure. I Hope

[balthazar]

Some moron actually made an analogy between the Post Office and GM. Siting the Post Office as being Government owned and inefficient. I'd love to see GM operate as well. An entity capable of managing over 750K employees and billions of pieces of mail per day.

The USPS has no competition (to your mailbox), pays no taxes, raises rates 5% every year (for the last 4) and runs billions in the red /year. First class mail is up 25% in the last 10 years. That's the bottom line of being government-run, IMO : performance. Breaking even should be the goal, but $6B in the red ?? The inevitable early question: does the USPS need 750K employees, esp with volume dropping ?? What's the tab there ?

[Blake Noble]

Such is the constant cycle of competition.

And GM is mostly still too slow to react to it.

U still didn't address the point.. only my language and attitude. Good Job

I addressed your point in my previous post. I suggest you read it.

Why isn't it right? A Corvette ZR1 is faster to 60 than an ENZO Ferrari. What's your point? The Cobalt SS is also almost as fast as the Mustang GT V8. A simple factory backed upgrade to 295HP/340lbs will remedy that.

Are you talking about an upgrade for a Cobalt SS? They already make it, in different stages.

Like I said, the F6 Camaro needs stronger engine options or it needs to be put on a serious diet. I prefer the latter versus the former, honestly.

No offense taken... I didn't do it for the Corvette.. I did it for my COUNTRY. But after talking to half of the Sell-Outs here on the web, I wish that I hadn't. Most Americans aren't worth being "Defended."

I'm glad you did it for the right reasons, but that last sentence really, really, really bothers me. That's part of your job, what you chose to do.

I'm sure. I Hope

That's all you can do when it comes to GM: keep your fingers crossed ... and don't let it surprise you when it doesn't happen the way it should.

[A Horse With No Name]

Why isn't it right? A Corvette ZR1 is faster to 60 than an ENZO Ferrari. What's your point? The Cobalt SS is also almost as fast as the Mustang GT V8. A simple factory backed upgrade to 295HP/340lbs will remedy that. No offense taken... I didn't do it for the Corvette.. I did it for my COUNTRY. But after talking to half of the Sell-Outs here on the web, I wish that I hadn't. Most Americans aren't worth being "Defended." I'm sure. I Hope

Two things;

Thank you for your service to our country.

The Cobalt SS is one hell of a car, I just wish my wife liked the Cobalt better.

Thinking of one for my son, who turned 16. One of his friends at school has one, an SS/TC. GM got this one RIGHT!

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

That's all you can do when it comes to GM: keep your fingers crossed ... and don't let it surprise you when it doesn't happen the way it should.

I don't always agree with cmicasa the great but I can see his point.

We waited on the Camaro for forever, and GM got the car as dead nuts right as any modern car. Seriously. And everyone wants to pick the car to death.

Visually, this is one of the best cars in 35 years. Enjoy it.

GM will do a lot wrong in the future. I get depressed about GM at times, and my posts show it. However, we also need to remember what they do right.

Chris

[Z-06]

The Cobalt SS is one hell of a car, I just wish my wife liked the Cobalt better.

Thinking of one for my son, who turned 16. One of his friends at school has one, an SS/TC. GM got this one RIGHT!

Chris

That car is spectacular. If you are like me thinking screw the bland interior and exterior the car will give you joy every corner you push it. It is a spectacular handling and performance.

[A Horse With No Name]

It actually is working its way into a short list for my next car.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

...and thank you Z06 for agreeing with me that this is utterly a kick ass car.

Sometimes I feel like I am the only one here who likes the small stuff.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

...and thank you Z06 for agreeing with me that this is utterly a kick ass car.

Sometimes I feel like I am the only one here who likes the small stuff.

Chris

I respect the Cobalt SS - alot.

But I can't quite like it.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hence the lean Towards a Cooper S on my part, although the 'balt SS has it's charms.

Really would like it if the 'balt was a littel more unique in its styling. But the Ecotech turbo is wonderful...

Edited July 22, 2009 by 66Stang

[Z-06]

Hence the lean Towards a Cooper S on my part, although the 'balt SS has it's charms.

Really would like it if the 'balt was a littel more unique in its styling. But the Ecotech turbo is wonderful...

I was a little surprised to see the tuner support the Cobalt SS has generated since its inception.

[A Horse With No Name]

It is a wonderful car. IIRC it set speed records at Bonneville. Not sure if it was an SS, but I think it was. Seems like I remember reading about female undergrad students building it and some established driver racing it.

With the 300 HP upgrade, having 130 HP on a Cooper S would be nothing to sneeze at.

I could have a LOT of fun with that car.

Chris