Return to Greatness

[97regalGS]

The Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will cease production in 2008

[post="56942"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

so either 1 more year or 2 depending on when production ends.

i'm no techie, but i wonder if anything else could have been done to keep it alive. i mean, it's not like the LS7 is a new design.

[razoredge]

Nooooo !!!!!!!!!! were not done and dont tell me to chill out, anyone. Im not the one that needs chillin, Im respectful and tactful until shown disrespect or have to listen to total garbage. Once again Reg needed to throw out some garbage just to keep things going, so go they will.

So now the only merit of the 38 was that it went passed 80,000 and apparently was the only GM engine that did so ????????/ Like I said, more BS just intended to openly degrade the 38. THe amazing relibility part of the 38 was that it went in excess of 150,000 - 200,000 - even 300,000.

So now the only reason GM sold cars with this engine was because no one had any choice !!!!! yaright !!!! just another fine oppertunity to degrade the 38 as well as GM.

"this thing can last more than 80,000 miles without teardown really kicks ass!' as if doing such warranted a medal or trophy or something. Like no one would expect anyone to build acar with an engine that would last awhile."

Just complete and total BS. Acting like those motorheads of us, that are into the 38 are some kind of mentally challanged, incapable of recognizing the merits of powerplants, far and wide, beside not knowing better than to think the 38 was and still is an excellent engine.

Once again not that Reg can absorb this but I have worn out many of the "reknown" best engines over the decades
L16, L18 L20B - Datsuns first OHC I4, amoungst the first engines to hit 150,000 miles in volumn
2 VW Rabbit engines - both the diesel and gas, also some of the serious high milage engines
22R the amazing I4 that helped bring toyota so much success
a 3 litre Mitsubitchi OHC V6 - but it only made 150,000
a 2.6 I4 Mitsubitchi - 150,000 and was still strong but had no truck left under it
then came the Buick V6's that brought even new meaning to reliability, and the fact that after all those I4's it was nice to have power again.

I think its great, every damn time any manufacturer builds such a strong engine and I have know of many. Hard to believe but I am aware that there is life outside of the 38.

" The good mpg was more than offest by its slow revving, growly nature, and huge footprint under the hood."

slow reving = more BS, something only Reg is aware of
growly nature = very streached definition but some of us dont care, obviously by the numbers sold
huge footprint = more BS, I have seen pictures of the 3.5 short *, 3.1 60*, 3.8 90* Buick and the 90* SBC side by side and the DOHC engine was HUGE and the 3.1 60* was tall and lanky. The two OHV 90* engines were a nice compact package and are know for this by people that actually work on cars....

weight ? not all that much and no big deal except for those know it all, arm chair racers. It was used in some of the largest passenger cars around during its career and would get down and get the job done when asked to do so. Almost all typical passenger cars were easy game for the 38. No one said it was a factory preped race engine, just one of the strongest around during many of its generations.

" People don't ask for the 3800 by name."

and you know this because ...........your croc ?

"If GM suddenly switched and only put the 3.6 in all the 3800 cars, ten bucks says fewer than 15% of buyers would notice and care."

Funny how we spin the BS. If we were talking about how the 38 is "old tec" or GM's have no level of engineering, suddenly 100% of the world does "notice and care"......typical

"Sweet!"

Just wanna keep up the degrading BS dont you ? There was no reason what so ever to even reply to that post, at least in that manor, except for the very reason that you did :blink: well maybe you have one good asset, as reliable as the 38 has been, it is also very reliable that you and many others will jump on any opportunity one can find to degrade GM products on this site.

I'm not to my second wind yet, so we can keep it going as long as you want to or you can employ some respect and decency on this here General Motors forum. Ill be done when others are done. I did not bring this subject into the matters of this topic, but I will be here until it is done.

BS is BS Edited December 11, 2005 by razoredge

[turbo200]

what bothers me about why the 3800 was so celebrated is because it was 'reliable' as if to suggest 'its rare that a GM engine was ever relaibel so man that this thing can last more than 80,000 miles without teardown really kicks ass!' as if doing such warranted a medal or trophy or something.  Like no one would expect anyone to build acar with an engine that would last awhile.

[post="56904"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

that's a damn good point reg. the japanese build engines that last ALL the time, this engine should be congratulated for being able to achieve the same, but it is no noteworthy achievement, being a GM is no excuse.

fly is right, this is a very circuitous argument. the 3800 is a workhorse engine that endured for many years with advancements, but it has since been outclassed by the competition and cannot match the free breathing techniques of multi-valve engines as well as thier overall quietness and sophisticated sounds. You ever hear those GM's that make the loud knocking sounds? Hell, I've driven in several recent W's with the 3.8 or some other derivative that sound so bad, as if I was in some taxi cab with 400k miles on it, when in reality the car only has 74k miles.

Anyways, salute to fans of it, but you have to get over it, thankfully it's being put to pasture. Edited December 12, 2005 by turbo200

[Croc]

Anyways, salute to fans of it, but you have to get over it, thankfully it's being put to pasture.

[post="56983"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Exactly. And Razor, my comment was made not to "degrade" the engine (how do you degrade engines?), but because I am glad GM is finally moving on to newer and higher-tech engines by discontinuing the 3800. I am cheering GM's progress.

[Guest buickman]

Exactly.  And Razor, my comment was made not to "degrade" the engine (how do you degrade engines?), but because I am glad GM is finally moving on to newer and higher-tech engines by discontinuing the 3800.  I am cheering GM's progress.

[post="56987"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I believe the lack of updates to the 3800 has more to do with GM's desire to close the FLINT PLANT than it does with the competitive validity of the POWER PLANT.

GM is also poised to quit making spark plugs in Flint after 100 years. The facility known as AC will soon cease operations, and if Miller has his way the rest of the place will soon be shuttered as well.

Don't think the union leadership will protect jobs. Visit www.futureoftheunion.com and read Bill Hanlines "Death of the Constitutional UAW". It's quite an eye opener.

[balthazar]

Oh 97, don't you know the LS7 is a rough, outdated, unreliable, anti-rev, consumer-rejected POS because it has an IBC?? You ninny.

[razoredge]

"that's a damn good point reg. the japanese build engines that last ALL the time, this engine should be congratulated for being able to achieve the same, but it is no noteworthy achievement, being a GM is no excuse."

No one was compareing note worthy achievment, may I remind you you are at a site with people that drive GM's and the 38 is a GM engine. Im sure if I went to various other makes site I could find them makeing "noteworthy praise".

"Being a GM is no excuse "

Oh boy, so now were excuse makers. Why do you come here ? I mean really, why ?

"fly is right, this is a very circuitous argument. the 3800 is a workhorse engine that endured for many years with advancements,"

" but it has since been outclassed by the competition and cannot match the free breathing techniques of multi-valve engines as well as thier overall quietness and sophisticated sounds."

toot toot, if you say so

"You ever hear those GM's that make the loud knocking sounds? Hell, I've driven in several recent W's with the 3.8 or some other derivative that sound so bad, as if I was in some taxi cab with 400k miles on it, when in reality the car only has 74k miles."

completely amazing, at least you guys know how to find the ones that dont run well :rolleyes: I now have a slight lifter tic.....at 327,000 miles. You can hear the clicking of the injectors, whirl of the alternator, some power steering pump sound. then is does have an exhaust. How I can hear those sounds over that steady clankin of the floppy rod bearings and wrist pins I will never know. :unsure:

Anyways, salute to fans of it, but you have to get over it, thankfully it's being put to pasture.

No!, some people need to learn not to come on a GM site, with people that have, approve of and enjoy these cars and feel the need to tell these people what to get over. All very very simple ideals to understand. No one was sitting here looking to rehash this total nonsense yet one more time, none the less certain opportunity's apparently could not be passed up.

[post="56983"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[Croc]

Razor, drop it. No one cares anymore. :rolleyes: Can we get back on topic, guys?

[Guest buickman]

Certainly. The question is can GM increase sales and profits by changing the marketing of their products? I believe the answer is YES. In order to carve out a profit in North America, we can continue to cut and eliminate, or we can look for growth. Now it makes perfectly good sense that the most effective marketing would be that which garners immediate results and if such efforts can me made without investment and actually lower expenses, why not at least try? There is nothing to lose, no risk, only upside potential. Ask yourself why wouldn't Wagoner and LaNeve be willing to move forward under such a scenario? There must be a reason, and it most definitely isn't because what they are doing now is working so well. Gua Buick in the Cleveland area, once the 10th largest Buick store in the nation, just announced it's closing it's doors. Thanks Rick! Edited December 12, 2005 by buickman

[Croc]

Actually, there IS a bit to lose! Getting customers into inferior vehicles through marketing could turn more people off to GM for life! Lemme put it this way: getting more people into G6 sedans isn't going to help GM's cause. Getting them into Lucerne's, however, might. If you're talking about selectively marketing, then fine, but not the entire lineup. I'm definitely of the opinion that some of those cars cannot die soon enough.

[Croc]

Gua Buick in the Cleveland area, once the 10th largest Buick store in the nation, just announced it's closing it's doors. Thanks Rick!

[post="57180"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Times change. I doubt it has anything to do with Rick Wagoner, either. I bet the dealership was either:

a) passed down from owner to a son who mismanaged it
b) it was mismanaged
c) the owner grew tired of the business

If Wagoner had anything to do with it, many Buick dealerships would be closing and it would be a "Buick epidemic." Hey Buickman, quit grinding the axe!! Edited December 12, 2005 by Croc

[evok]

Certainly. The question is can GM increase sales and profits by changing the marketing of their products? I believe the answer is YES. In order to carve out a profit in North America, we can continue to cut and eliminate, or we can look for growth. Now it makes perfectly good sense that the most effective marketing would be that which garners immediate results and if such efforts can me made without investment and actually lower expenses, why not at least try? There is nothing to lose, no risk, only upside potential. Ask yourself why wouldn't Wagoner and LaNeve be willing to move forward under such a scenario? There must be a reason, and it most definitely isn't because what they are doing now is working so well.
Gua Buick in the Cleveland area, once the 10th largest Buick store in the nation, just announced it's closing it's doors. Thanks Rick!

[post="57180"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How many people have to tell you it is the product. Let me be frank, your ideas are childish and just stupid. You have not learned anything in 6 months. Edited December 12, 2005 by evok

[Guest buickman]

Longtime auto dealership to close After 58 years, Qua feels effects of GM's problems By Christopher Jensen Plain Dealer Auto Editor Saturday, December 10, 2005 Edition: Final, Section: Business, Page C1 Zone All It seems hard for George Qua to talk about it being over. For three generations and 58 years, the Qua family has been selling Buicks in Northeast Ohio. But on Jan. 6, Qua Buick-Pontiac will close. "This has been extremely difficult," said Qua, whose father, V.B. Qua, founded the dealership in 1947. Through the decades the dealership has been run by George, his brother Steve and now their sons, Paul and Blake. But the closing of the dealership at 3393 Warrensville Center Road in Shaker Heights demonstrates the challenges faced nationwide by smaller dealerships and the trickle-down consequences of decisions made by executives at General Motors as the world's largest au tomaker struggles to be competitive. General Motors has been encouraging dealers to locate dealerships in highly traveled, high- visibility areas, ideally next to interstate highways. Qua said the major problem for him was his inability to find a location along Interstate 271, which was where General Motors wanted the dealership. But he acknowledged that another factor was that General Motors failed to offer vehicles that could fend off foreign automakers. Amid "brutal competition," that meant a long decline in sales since 1966, when Qua was the 10th-largest Buick dealer in the nation. "As General Motors' fortunes declined, ours declined, too," he said. "We just couldn't control all the variables." Qua sounds sorrowful, though he says he's not bitter because bitterness "ruins the container." But he notes that many years ago he passed up opportunities to open Honda and Toyota dealerships. "It is true that the thing that has certainly hurt me the most has been my loyalty to General Motors," said Qua. In the end it made sense to close the dealership. Now the challenge is helping the 32 employees find other jobs while running a sale to get rid of the new and used cars. While dealerships are routinely purchased and become part of larger dealerships or chains, it is unusual for a dealership to close, said Gary Adams, president of the Greater Cleveland Automobile Dealers Association. But Qua is one of many Buick dealers sharing a significantly smaller piece of the American automotive pie. In 1991, Buick had 4.45 percent of the U.S. market. At the end of November, it was 1.68 percent, according to the Power Information Network, a division of J.D. Power and Associates, the market research firm. "It is much, much harder to be profitable when you are selling a third as many vehicles as you used to be," said Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis for the Power Information Network. One of the problems for Buick dealers has been that as sport utilities became more popular, Buick dealers only had sedans, Libby said. Dealers got the Rendezvous, a close relative of the Pontiac Aztec, as a 2002 model. The Buick Rainier, which was based on the Chevrolet TrailBlazer, followed as a 2004 model. But those trucks arrived late and, overall, Buick lacked the vehicles to attract younger buyers, Libby said. For a dealer the ideal today is to have four or five brands because that gives them models that cover most of the segments of the market, said Paul Taylor, chief economist for the National Automobile Dealers Association. General Motors has also been encouraging dealers to combine Pontiac, Buick and GMC dealerships. GM's goal is to reduce the number of models that compete with each other. But that means if a dealer wants to have a variety, it is necessary to have more than one or two brands. As Adams sees it, the core of the problem for too many dealers is the lack of competitive vehicles from the automakers. "One of the problems is that the automakers make decisions today to try and impress Wall Street with disregard for Main Street," he said. Automakers that provide interesting and attractive vehicles will have profitable dealers, he said. The Quas were deeply involved in helping the community, and they had loyal customers, Adams said. "It wasn't like they were doing dumb business things. What a shame a business like that has to close." To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-4830

[evok]

Buickman, I still see you lurking below. For 6 months you have only 1 time responded to me. You are a waste of time. No wonder La Neve dismissed you.

[Guest buickman]

Buickman, I still see you lurking below. For 6 months you have only 1 time responded to me.  You are a waste of time.  No wonder La Neve dismissed you.

[post="57206"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

LaNeve made a deal and then went backwards. His word is meaningless, much like your commentary.

[97regalGS]

Actually, there IS a bit to lose!  Getting customers into inferior vehicles through marketing could turn more people off to GM for life!

Lemme put it this way: getting more people into G6 sedans isn't going to help GM's cause.  Getting them into Lucerne's, however, might.  If you're talking about selectively marketing, then fine, but not the entire lineup.  I'm definitely of the opinion that some of those cars cannot die soon enough.

[post="57185"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

a 24 year old woman I know drove her mom's new G6. She LOVES it!

Is she in the minority? Maybe. But I gotta believe that the majority of people aren't 1/10th as passionate about cars as the people on this site.

[evok]

LaNeve made a deal and then went backwards. His word is meaningless, much like your commentary.

[post="57210"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My commentary on your plan is right on, much like La Neve figured out. IT WILL NOT WORK. Show me the data it will work. BUT you do not have any. Edited December 12, 2005 by evok

[Croc]

a 24 year old woman I know drove her mom's new G6.  She LOVES it!

Is she in the minority? Maybe.  But I gotta believe that the majority of people aren't 1/10th as passionate about cars as the people on this site.

[post="57212"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

sedan or coupe? Coupe's a good deal better than the sedan.

[turbo200]

But he acknowledged that another factor was that General Motors failed to offer vehicles that could fend off foreign automakers.

Amid "brutal competition," that meant a long decline in sales since 1966, when Qua was the 10th-largest Buick dealer in the nation.

"As General Motors' fortunes declined, ours declined, too," he said. "We just couldn't control all the variables."

Qua sounds sorrowful, though he says he's not bitter because bitterness "ruins the container." But he notes that many years ago he passed up opportunities to open Honda and Toyota dealerships.

"It is true that the thing that has certainly hurt me the most has been my loyalty to General Motors," said Qua. In the end it made sense to close the dealership

The article you posted makes more sense to me than anything you've written so far from your own head. Let's examine this...."brutal competition", "failed to offer vehicles to contend foreign automakers", "loyalty to GM hurt me". Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Self-imposed disaster, self-imposed by the execs at GM, and the dealer for staying with GM, as much as I don't like saying that. But he's acknowledged the reasons for failure, how come you can't? And how come you can't recognize where the competition is at now, is far and away above where GM is at NOW. With the exception of the C6, all brands, including Cadillac, don't produce one SINGLE class-leading product. PATHETIC.

.

"It is much, much harder to be profitable when you are selling a third as many vehicles as you used to be," said Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis for the Power Information Network.

One of the problems for Buick dealers has been that as sport utilities became more popular, Buick dealers only had sedans, Libby said.

Dealers got the Rendezvous, a close relative of the Pontiac Aztec, as a 2002 model. The Buick Rainier, which was based on the Chevrolet TrailBlazer, followed as a 2004 model.

Hmmmmm.....new, competitive product :huh: You don't say? That helped the situation. By golly, that's a novel idea, let's release product people want for a change :rolleyes:

As Adams sees it, the core of the problem for too many dealers is the lack of competitive vehicles from the automakers.

Automakers that provide interesting and attractive vehicles will have profitable dealers, he said.

I have thought about this for a long time now, since this thread began. This is the BEST GM Fan site, imo, where no one is willing to hold back thier opinion, and people have such an unbiased perspective that they are willing to positively critique competitors' cars. We're all just generally interested in the financial well-being of this company.

That said, here is my resolution to this thread. I will post a poll, which will hopefully garner votes and interest, and ask GM FANS WHAT THEY REALLY THINK ABOUT GM CARS. Let's go. Keep in mind, we are FANS, and we want the best, despite what some here propagate.

[Croc]

Good idea Turbo. As far as that dealership...they were mismanaged IMO because they were Pontiac-Buick. They did not have GMC. I doubt GM denied them GMC. Also, he acknowledges he lacked getting a visible location in an area of a lot of dealerships. Location is everything in this business. So there are two things the dealer did not do. I have yet to see something Rick Wagoner did. Evok's right...you're a waste of time.

[Flybrian]

I have thought about this for a long time now, since this thread began. This is the BEST GM Fan site, imo, where no one is willing to hold back thier opinion, and people have such an unbiased perspective that they are willing to positively critique competitors' cars. We're all just generally interested in the financial well-being of this company.

[post="57226"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I've always said that as long as you have some interest and/or desire in seeing GM be a successful company, your comments are welcomed and desired. People who just want to whine, point out how much things SUXXXXX, and wish GM doom can go somewhere else.

That should remind us all that we have a common interest and common hopes. Let's remember that more in our approaches to each other on this board.

[Guest buickman]

Good idea Turbo.

As far as that dealership...they were mismanaged IMO because they were Pontiac-Buick.  They did not have GMC.  I doubt GM denied them GMC.  Also, he acknowledges he lacked getting a visible location in an area of a lot of dealerships.  Location is everything in this business.  So there are two things the dealer did not do.  I have yet to see something Rick Wagoner did.  Evok's right...you're a waste of time.

[post="57230"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Funny that's not what the hundreds of UAW members thought after my speech in Flint today.

[Croc]

hahahahahahaha of COURSE the UAW wants to place all the blame on Wagoner and not take any responsibility for themselves. Good lord, I hope you didn't consider that an "astute observation." :lol:

[Guest buickman]

hahahahahahaha of COURSE the UAW wants to place all the blame on Wagoner and not take any responsibility for themselves.  Good lord, I hope you didn't consider that an "astute observation." :lol:

[post="57245"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The laugh is believing that producing quality ensures job security. How about paying thousands to be in the jobs bank while working others 7 days and double shifts? Why are we paying contract help when the jobs bank people are available? Let's find something for these people to do. Now GM is hiring off the street also, still not utilizing jobs bank workers. Why? Second tier wages. Listen carefully, the problem at GM is at the top. Ignore it, deny it, but if you want to stay in business you better believe it. Edited December 12, 2005 by buickman

[Croc]

Producing quality DOES ensure job security to the extent that producing quality means that people will want to BUY GM and that contributes to the financial security of GM and when GM is financially secure, job cuts are less likely. Duh :rolleyes:

[Guest buickman]

Producing quality DOES ensure job security to the extent that producing quality means that people will want to BUY GM and that contributes to the financial security of GM and when GM is financially secure, job cuts are less likely.  Duh :rolleyes:

[post="57262"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

LeSabre #1 in quality and volume...Buick City - Gone.

[Croc]

LeSabre #1 in quality and volume...Buick City - Gone.

[post="57265"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, it has good reliability. It lacks tight panel fits, interior plastics of a higher grade than Fisher-Price toys, good interior design, etc. Plus, it's dead!

:rolleyes: Just give it up, already!

[Guest buickman]

No, it has good reliability.  It lacks tight panel fits, interior plastics of a higher grade than Fisher-Price toys, good interior design, etc.  Plus, it's dead!

:rolleyes: Just give it up, already!

[post="57268"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Are you kidding, I'm just getting warmed up.

[Guest buickman]

...I thought I smelled a fart.

[post="57281"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The odor is obviously from the crap you keep slinging against someone honestly trying to improve GM.

[razoredge]

Some people that post here need to learn when to shut up.

croc - you just continously keep egging people on and on they will come. Why dont you just shut up. Nothing out of you is ever anything outside of insults, never ! I got your number way back when I first joined on this site and began to see your responces to posts made by others. I could not believe you were a moderator at that time. You were the first moderator troll I had ever seen. These topics that become negitive and anti GM topics are the only ones you participate in, or the occasion to do a quick driveby on some random topic.

I will never drop anything because some, what ever the hell you are tells me too. "Drop it already no one cares." Leave it to one like yourself to search for and use the "safety in numbers" shield. You do that quite often, calling out for help from your buddies to somehow represent a majority, thereby being the ends all of the conversation. Well I care and others also posted as to the BS that was being tossed around. Why did you feel the need to TELL ME to drop it when at least two post earlier I said I was ready, willing and able to leave it alone just as soon as everyone else did. Well apparently you are still not ready to leave it or anything on this site alone.

Moving away from the trolling croc (of crap)

While I believe Buickmans ideas are only applicable in a small percentage if it sold cars, wheres the problem (besides the manufactured problem created by the sites resident troll.) I do believe many of these points are dealer applicable only and should have no burdon on the company. The points on pricing, rebates and red tag sales, ect have been brought up on this site by many, repetedly.

SO Wagner is not the only problem. Perhaps the entire staff is ???????????? If product is the only problem as you GM haters say, well, who the hell has been in charge ?

Class leading ! Now just what is that ? The alility to win some race held by Motor Trend- key word there "trend". If you do not win this 0-60, 1/4 mile and handling race......you imeadiatly become junk ? If you use a different styling approach than the Germans or Japanese.....you are automatically......not class leading ? If the competition has some gimmick, that you did not think of first.....you are now junk ?

I guess we should all be hunting down the very same perfect woman too because surely all others are not "class leading" and should be scuttled. Of course we'll have to do a poll so we can get the word from the resident self appointed experts as to who that one woman is.

:angry:
Once again I ask why do you come here ? Come on identify, hiding only brings suspicion.

[97regalGS]

sedan or coupe?  Coupe's a good deal better than the sedan.

[post="57224"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

sedan

[The O.C.]

...I thought I smelled a fart.

[post="57281"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

OMG......ROTFLMAO

:lol:

[The O.C.]

Some people that post here need to learn when to shut up.

croc - you just continously keep egging people on and on they will come. Why dont you just shut up. Nothing out of you is ever anything outside of insults, never ! I got your number way back when I first joined on this site and began to see your responces to posts made by others. I could not believe you were a moderator at that time. You were the first moderator troll I had ever seen. These topics that become negitive and anti GM topics are the only ones you participate in, or the occasion to do a quick driveby on some random topic.

I will never drop anything because some, what ever the hell you are tells me too. "Drop it already no one cares." Leave it to one like yourself to search for and use the "safety in numbers" shield. You do that quite often, calling out for help from your buddies to somehow represent a majority, thereby being the ends all of the conversation. Well I care and others also posted as to the BS that was being tossed around. Why did you feel the need to TELL ME to drop it when at least two post earlier I said I was ready, willing and able to leave it alone just as soon as everyone else did. Well apparently you are still not ready to leave it or anything on this site alone.

Moving away from the trolling croc (of crap)

While I believe Buickmans ideas are only applicable in a small percentage if it sold cars, wheres the problem (besides the manufactured problem created by the sites resident troll.) I do believe many of these points are dealer applicable only and should have no burdon on the company. The points on pricing, rebates and red tag sales, ect have been brought up on this site by many, repetedly.

SO Wagner is not the only problem. Perhaps the entire staff is ???????????? If product is the only problem as you GM haters say, well, who the hell has been in charge ? 

Class leading ! Now just what is that ? The alility to win some race held by Motor Trend- key word there "trend". If you do not win this 0-60, 1/4 mile and handling race......you imeadiatly become junk ? If you use a different styling approach than the Germans or Japanese.....you are automatically......not class leading ? If the competition has some gimmick, that you did not think of first.....you are now junk ?

I guess we should all be hunting down the very same perfect woman too because surely all others are not "class leading" and should be scuttled. Of course we'll have to do a poll so we can get the word from the resident self appointed experts as to who that one woman is.

:angry:
Once again I ask why do you come here ? Come on identify, hiding only brings suspicion.

[post="57376"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Croc's right.....you JUST don't get it......

[Flybrian]

Since this has just turned into bickering, bitching, and insults despite my and other's hope that a mature, informed discussion could take place, I'm closing this topic.

Again, this is becoming more and more of a circular argument with no end (or even a point) in sight. And some of the immaturity expressed by some have no place in a news discussion.

If you all feel this can be reasonably debated again without the insults, we can try it again, but Round One is over.