Return to Greatness

[razoredge]

Yeah that is GMs big plan.  Sell no cars so they can close dealerships and ship production to Korea, which has such a great commercial infrastructure, and then import the cars back to the US.  Way to go Sherlock you broke GMs big plan open with a sledge hammer! :rolleyes:

Im not picking you apart here I just had some thoughts on much of what you wrote.

No of course not but you must admit there has been some curious goings on. The Oldsmobile of 95+ was quite curious. Delphi offering Americans 9 $ hour is curious. the entire saturin thing is realy really curious. The only sportingly looking conventional cars will be adorned with the Pontiac facia? - only - the only choise for a somewhat sporty car is that Pontiac nose, its not for all of us you know. 

Seriously Jim you blame Rick for the ENTIRE Fiat Fiasco?  Come on there were likely HUNDREDS of people involved in that deal.  Teams of lawyers and tons of analysis done and you know GM as a company decided that at the time, with all the information at their disposal it was a good move to make.  To blame one person, even if he was the point man, is rediculous.  Also I think that there are other reasons and I am willing to listen to them to see WHY you have a personal vendetta against Mr. Wagner.  I don't know him from you BUT I do see you quoting yourself and making up poems, seems a little odd for someone who thinks they are executive material.

Well we all should know he was not the only decision maker. Still I believe he was the financial office at that time. Also someone else mentioned the 4 billion, wasnt it over 7 billion when it was said and done. Its been awhile and I forget, I think it was 3 or 4 this last time around.

The beancounter mentality has always been present at GM it is what happens when you get on top.  You become conservative.  GM has been a VERY conservative company since the 60s.  The last BIG risk it took engineering wise was the 4-6-8 caddy V8 and before that the Corvair.  That was a HUGE risk.

I have a book that mentions this but Id have to reread the first 4 chapters or so to find it. You are correct sometime in the early 60's a new ???what ever position it is was the first of that position to be a real beancounter. It was said at this time the engineers and design teams really had a hard uphill draw and that product suffered because of it. there are other people here to better define that story.

After the 4-6-8 Caddy they built an aluminum block, iron head, not so good of an idea, engine. The quad 4 and Northstar was a pretty good risky step, not that it should have been. So Im saying in some ways GM is not giving enough credit. In others they screwed up badly but yet they tried, I just dont get that aluminum block, iron head thing at all.

Develop an entirely new structure, unibody, rear engined air cooled flat 6, for originally 2 cars and later only 1.  The Corvair lineup could have become a second VW, they had a truck, a wagon, a van, a coupe, a convertible, and a sedan, but instead they persued a person investigating the car and tarnished their rep, made Nader a hero.  And then scrapped the line.

Dont know much about the Corvair other than it looked really nice. I can tell you when they were used and potential cars for us youngons, we were told to stay away from them. Drivetrain and suspension issues. remember roads were not what they are today even in the 60's. A few guys had them, one first body and one second body, they really werent fantastic cars. Thats my take anyhow. Porsche is doing good but I just dont think the rear engine car is the best design to put lots of effort into. Thats pretty much all Porsche has ever done, thats different that a grass roots model.

Now GM has had its LONG draw out approval process to make sure that flops don't make it to production.  I think the Aztek showed that this doesn't catch everything and it showed the problem with design by committie.

The best thing GM can do RIGHT NOW is reduce its overhead by closing under utilized plants, reducing the healthcare to retirees and UAW members.  Next it must address product.  This has already begun the designers have been unleashed.  Now instead of things being toned down to the point of melted wax we get the cars that the designers wanted.  Solstice is the first.  Look at the 1st drawings and the production car in the showrooms and BOOM you see what I mean.  GM actually was aggressive and look what it got for it, a SURE fire hit.  Also on projects partly through the approval process more money was spent on interiors and exterior details.  The LaCrosse was to far for the overall designs to be touched so Lutz, who Wagner brought in BTW, threw money into materials and fitments on the interior, chassis tuning and got a DOHC engine into a Buick for the 1st time EVER!  The Impala was next retune the interior and exterior.  Use subtle style and finally stick that V8 under the W-body that has been engineered to go in since the late 1990s!

Lucerne and DTS probably the finest pure luxury large cars on the planet.  I am not talking sports sedans, I am not talking ultra luxury cars I am talking about BIG Bold AMERICAN cars with comfortable rides, great power, and un-ending style.  I wasn't a fan of the Lucerne till I saw a black and chrome one in traffic and let me tell you my opinion changed 100% on the spot, this comes from a 24 year old male who is a sports car NUT!

This is more the kind of talk I feel appropriate. Now we need to get these darn cars sold so we can move on to the next page......intact ! 

Now what has the press and other members of the auto world seen that we haven't?  The 1st purely 100% Lutz influenced cars and trucks.  2008 CTS said to be perfect by many.  2008 Malibu is said to knock your socks off, that is right a Malibu!  Enclave said to be pure beauty, I think you may have actually seen this.

Something about this Lutz statement I dont think is actually true. I know everyone says that but I remember he sent the Regal back to the drawing board. It was nothing like the Lacrosse. I personally believe the Lacrosse aside from the W chassis was under Lutz supervision. G6 Im not sure about but it doesnt look like previous Pontiac.

Now while the designers have been busy making GM cars stylish again GM powertrain and others have been working on new things.  6 speed autos, DOD V8s and V6s, new OHC V8s, VERY powerful 4 cylinders, DI for the future, BAS mild hybrid system to cost less and be in more cars than Toyota can count.  Lots of things comming.

Thats why we need to make good on sales of current models and come out intact. this is how to ensure continuance. Falling on the face for two years prior could be a real mistake. Not that thats happening, these cars are selling.

So while you fume about something that 1 man was involved in and call for his public beheading he was busy bringing in the right people to get GM back on track and managable and MUCH more profitable.  Yes people will loose their jobs and yes there will be hard times but in the end a much stronger, quicker, and healthier GM will emerge.  And THAT is what is important.

Im the only one that calls for head around here and I have not called for Wagoners. I have called for all of them, the whole lot, making millions per year, you gotta be kiddin me. Off with their heads, then the next batch will behaive and take their jobs seriously.  :AH-HA_wink:  Im only about 65% serious. Fed up for sure.

[post="54881"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So anyhow that was a good post 91Z, I know GM needs better product but I wont tolerate bashing of good GM product because it is not fitting someones personal taste. Difference between not fitting ones taste and bashing. Cant sell cars with people bashing them all the time.

Good post

[91z4me]

GM has good product and more coming. It won't fly in the market as long as the marketing mavens methodically mishandle merchandising. Beyond that I stand by the first twenty points as described and recommended for implementation.

[post="54961"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Once again Jim your points are ALL dealer levied. They need to be taken to a regional dealer meeting. They are NOT something GM can impliment due to franchise laws and current dealer/manufacture contracts.

[Guest buickman]

Respectfully disagree. GM can announce incentive changes only quarterly. GM already HAS implemented steps from The Plan. Divisional sales leaders are once again identified and recognized. GM employees now have a cash reward account for referrals. The Corporation is capable of putting these steps into effect. In fact that ratfink LaNeve even stole my words in the latest issue of GM Edge. They're incompetent, untrustworthy, ego-centric, and corrupt. Love GM, Hate the Leadership (if you can call it that). Edited December 8, 2005 by buickman

[91z4me]

In fact that ratfink LaNeve even stole my words in the latest issue of GM Edge. They're incompetent, untrustworthy, ego-centric, and corrupt. Love GM, Hate the Leadership (if you can call it that).

[post="54977"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What was that you said about calling people names?

[Guest buickman]

What was that you said about calling people names?

[post="54979"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You're right, sorry. I just get stinking mad knowing what they are up to. They played uninterested and are slowly utilizing the ideas but not in any logical fashion. They still can't determine what Value Pricing means, let alone convince the public. LaNeve had the nerve to tell me at our last meeting that he felt The Plan would lose market share. Now, months later he tries using the steps and even claims it's his plan using my words. He's a ...........!!!!!!!!! I am mostly upset that he's screwing up a good plan by doing illogically and piecemeal.

[91z4me]

Jim it has been stated by OC that the dealer's called for incentives. That THEY wanted them and couldn't wait for Value Pricing to work. Doesn't sound like GMs fault.

[Croc]

It's all one big conspiracy theory, isn't it?

[Guest buickman]

I don't know of a single dealer who wanted Red Tag, liked GMS, or thinks LaNeve, Gerosa, or Dewar have any clue what they are doing...Not one single dealer and I know lots of them personally all over the country. I receive tons of email and have never seen one in favor of VSSM. Tell your friends in The Tubes that Buickman is only getting warmed up Delaware last June was only the practice round. the next couple months will see some surprises, I promise you. Edited December 8, 2005 by buickman

[turbo200]

it was scott settlemire, aka fbodfather, who said it earlier in the thread that dealers demanded incentives. I will believe him before you.

[Guest buickman]

I challenge him to name those dealers. They probably are related to GM execs. Kind of how John Larson got his job. Know who his father in law is? Politics is the game, not performance, ability, or knowledge. Why do you think Wagoner was fast tracked? Talent? Edited December 8, 2005 by buickman

[Satty]

Do black helicopters take him too his office in the Office of Doom every morning?

[91z4me]

Do black helicopters take him too his office in the Office of Doom every morning?

[post="55002"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No Black LaCrosses because NOTHING is wrong with the current Buick lineup, NOTHING! :P

[Guest buickman]

No it's Lutz with the pilots license.

[evok]

Respectfully disagree. GM can announce incentive changes only quarterly. GM already HAS implemented steps from The Plan. Divisional sales leaders are once again identified and recognized. GM employees now have a cash reward account for referrals. The Corporation is capable of putting these steps into effect. In fact that ratfink LaNeve even stole my words in the latest issue of GM Edge. They're incompetent, untrustworthy, ego-centric, and corrupt. Love GM, Hate the Leadership (if you can call it that).

[post="54977"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM employees were dishing out employee price coupons long before you have spouted you plan. I know, I have taken advantage of it a couple times already over the past couple years. But since you refuse to use any logic at all, how many vehicles do you really think it adds to the bottom line.

A couple thousand by my estimates. Think about it. 90% of GM US employees are in MI. Where would they most likely give out there referrels to? GM Suppliers are already eligible for employee pricing. The pool in MI keeps getting smaller and smaller.

[CARBIZ]

Personally, from the whorehouses that I have seen many dealers become, I would like to see an end to pitting dealer against dealer. An entire generation of dealer principals are aging and will be retiring, leaving their spoiled offspring in charge - that will not bode well for GM in the future. Today's 100 million dollar dealerships need to be run by professionals with MBAs, not handed down like some kingdom. I know from personal experience what a mess franchise law is (in Ontario, there isn't any!), but if dealers aren't singing from the same hymn book there is a problem. I used to be involved in a major national franchise that had over 1,200 locations in North AMerica. The entire chain went bankrupt, largely because their franchises were fighting amongst themselves and nobody could agree on what should be done. They had a very tough franchise Agreement, modelled after McDonald's, yet they were unable to force dealers to participate in a major buy in on national TV for the hit show Dynasty. (OKay, I am going way back.) Product is the biggest challenge at GM, but the dealers themselves need a swift kick in the ass. As has been pointed out here by someone else, many salesmen are jaded, unable to adapt and don't even like the products they are selling. That is a problem. I have no doubt dealers are always screaming for more and better incentives. I can't speak for Red Tag, but the Ring and Win is a joke. Just yesterday I saw a full page ad in the Toronto Star for a few Chrysler dealers advertising the Caravan for $18,888. I rolled my eyes when I saw that and thought, "here we go!" The iceberg is coming and the captain is just rearranging the deck chairs.

[The O.C.]

Buickman, I'm wondering why you haven't responded to any of my posts? I've presented my opinions in regards to 1) your "Points", and 2) your (admittingly fine) sales performance in GM-dominated Michigan. You might be "ignoring" me.....but I thought you'd be up to the challenge. I was quite direct with many of my opinions and definitely WELCOME any sort of rebuttal...this (C&G) is a great forum for such a "debate!" .......<waiting patiently>.........

[turbo200]

Is this your sales practice? Dodge and weave? You don't answer direct questions placed in opposition of your viewpoint. Yet you continue to argue your point of view without offering support. So if someone tells you the Accord is a better automobile after driving a Lacrosse, do you simply stare blankly and then revert back to the employee pricing deal you complain about everyday here?

[post="54254"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:CG_all:

[The O.C.]

:CG_all:

[post="55159"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:bowdown:

[evok]

Buickman,

I'm wondering why you haven't responded to any of my posts?

I've presented my opinions in regards to 1) your "Points", and 2) your (admittingly fine) sales performance in GM-dominated Michigan.

You might be "ignoring" me.....but I thought you'd be up to the challenge.  I was quite direct with many of my opinions and definitely WELCOME any sort of rebuttal...this (C&G) is a great forum for such a "debate!"

.......<waiting patiently>.........

[post="55156"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

He is another Michael Moore from Flint. He talks a good game but there is no substance in what he says. He has been ducking and running questions and follow up since he reared his head back in May. When Josh asked me about him very early on I though he could have been a good asset to the board because of his background but he only turned out to be an asset minus 2 letters. Edited December 8, 2005 by evok

[Guest buickman]

Gee.....what was your ratio of sales to GM employees, suppliers, and retirees to people not associated with GM at all?

I bet it was about 85% to 15%.  Hell, it could have been even HIGHER.  It's a HELL of a lot easier to sell GM cars to GM-associated consumers in Flint and Detroit than it is just about anywhere else.  You guys were almost nothing more than "order-takers." 

And YES I know your market oh so well.....I lived in the Flint area for 5 years, (worked at BUICK headquarters nonetheless, Mr. "Buick"man) and also lived in Oakland County (still working in Flint) for another 2 years after that.  7 years total....lived in the area....worked for GM/Buick in the area....I know the area.

I'd so LOVE to see you come out to Orange County or L.A. and try to repeat your "performance" at a Buick dealership out here....

Or for that matter, go to New York, or Atlanta, or Dallas, or Phoenix, or Denver...

I have nothing PERSONAL against you, Jim.....really.....I don't even know you.....but in regards to this highly-charged topic, you have NO clue what the "real" world is all about.  Many of us on this site DON'T live in the midwest and are more than willing to give you a clue.

[post="54898"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your ratios are close. Realize however that in the Flint market there were 6 rather large Buick stores, Al Serra, McNally, MacGillivary, Waldron, Martin, and Williamson. The competition was, and is, heated. With mostly fixed pricing those who rose to the top had to be the cream of their profession in order to win the business since the difference between dealers and salespeople was the level of service. You don't deliver 126 units in one month by being an order taker when the average salesman in the market does 12. I developed The Plan as a result of my success in winning business, which began with local clientel that spread to having customers nationwide. These days, I regularly deal with people throughout the country as a result of building a business by word of mouth.

[Guest buickman]

:CG_all:

[post="55159"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

compare vehicles
Legend:
Buick Advantage Standard Available Not Available Change Style 2006 Buick LaCrosse CXL Replace | Delete 2006 Toyota Camry XLE V6 Replace | Delete 2006 Honda Accord Sedan LX V-6 5-Spd AT
Price
Base Price MSRP $25,435* $25,805* $25,100*
Destination Charge $660* $580* $550*
Equipped Price $26,095* $27,035* $25,650*
Back to top Drivetrain
Engine Name 3.8L V6 3.0L V6 3.0L V6
Fuel System Sequential Electronic Fuel Injected Sequential Electronic Fuel Injected Multi-Port Fuel Injected
Horsepower @ RPM 200@5200 190@5800 244@6250
Torque @ RPM 230@4000 197@4400 211@5000
Fuel Capacity 17.0 18.5 17.1
Standard Transmission Automatic Automatic Automatic
Transmission Speeds 4 5 5
Driveline Front Wheel Drive Front Wheel Drive Front Wheel Drive
Final Drive Ratio 2.86 3.29 4.43
Fuel Economy (City) (mpg) 20 20 20
Fuel Economy (Highway) (mpg) 30 28 29
Back to top Exterior Dimensions
Wheelbase (in.) 110.5 107.1 107.9
Length (in.) 198.1 189.2 191.1
Height (in.) 57.4 58.7 57.2
Width (in.) 73.0 70.7 71.6
Track (front) 61.7 60.8 61.1
Track (rear) 61.5 60.4 61.2
Curb Weight (Auto Trans) (lbs.) 3502 3428 3415
Back to top
Interior Dimensions
Head Room (front) (in.) 39.4 39.2 38.3
Head Room (rear) (in.) 37.2 38.4 36.8
Hiproom (front) (in.) 55.3 54.4 54.6
Hiproom (rear) (in.) 54.6 54.1 53.5
Leg Room (front) (in.) 42.3 41.6 42.6
Leg Room (rear) (in.) 37.6 37.8 36.8
Shoulder Room (front) (in.) 57.2 57.5 56.9
Shoulder Room (rear) (in.) 57.0 56.7 56.1
Cargo Volume (mfr.) (cu. ft.) 16.0 16.7 14.0
Back to top Safety
Vehicle Anti-theft
Stolen Vehicle Tracking
Emergency Services
Traction Control Added Option Not Listed
Vehicle Stability Control System Added Option
Roadside Assistance
Antilock Brakes
Daytime Running Lights
Airbags
Front Side Airbags with Head Protection
Automatic Notification of Airbag Deployment
Remote Door Unlock
Rear Door Child Security Lock-out
3-Point Center Seat Belt
Side Guard Door Beams
Hands-Free, Voice-Activated Phone
Back to top Performance
Automatic Transmission
Suspension (Front) Independent Independent Independent
Suspension (Rear) Independent Independent Independent
Brakes (Front) Disc Disc Disc
Brakes (Rear) Disc Disc Disc
Standard Tires SBRP225/60R16 BSW, Goodyear® Integrity All-Season Tires SBRP215/60R16 94V, All-Season Tires SBRP215/50R17 93V, All-Season Tires
Alloy Wheels
Back to top Comfort
Air Conditioning
Automatic Climate Control
Rear Seat HVAC Ducts Not Listed
Dual Zone Climate Control
Interior Air Filter
Power Windows
Power Locks
Steering Wheel Mounted Controls
Automatic Headlamps
Illuminated Vanity Mirror
Solar Ray Tinted Glass
Multi-Adjustable Power Driver Seat
Multi-Adjustable Power Passenger Seat
Front Power Lumbar Support
Front Adjustable Seat Height
Front Heated Seats
Leather Seats
Leather Steering Wheel
AM/FM Stereo
CD Player
CD Changer
Radio Anti-theft
Back to top Convenience
Interior Electrochromic Mirror
Heated Exterior Mirrors
Remote Keyless Entry
Adjustable Steering Column
Cruise Control
Tachometer
Power Sunroof
Back to top Warranty
Basic Warranty Time (Months) 48 36 36
Basic Warranty Miles 50000 36000 36000
Powertrain Warranty Time (Months) 48 60 60
Powertrain Warranty Miles 50000 60000 60000
Rust Warranty Time (Months) 72 60 60
Rust Warranty Miles 100000 Unlimited Unlimited
AIC Logo

Automotive Information Center, an independent online automotive buyer's guide.
Certain specifications, prices and equipment data have been provided under license from Automotive Information Center (AIC). © 2004 Automotive Information Center.

All Rights Reserved. This information is supplied for personal use only and may not be used for any commercial purpose whatsoever without the express written consent of Automotive Information Center.

Although AIC checks regularly with auto manufacturers and their representatives to confirm the accuracy and completeness of the data, it makes no guarantee or warranty, either express or implied, including without limitation any warranty or merchantability or fitness for particular purpose, with respect to the data presented here. All specifications, prices and equipment are subject to change without notice.

Specification Data Provided from AIC
Copyright © 2005 Automotive information Center. All Rights Reserved




GM.com Copyright & Trademark Info | Privacy | Contact Us | Buick Owners | GM Sites | Search | Site Map
©2005 General Motors Corp.
*Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Tax, title, license, dealer fees, and optional equipment are extra.

[CaddyXLR-V]

compare vehicles
Legend:
Buick Advantage Standard Available Not Available  Change Style  2006 Buick LaCrosse CXL  Replace | Delete  2006 Toyota Camry XLE V6  Replace | Delete  2006 Honda Accord Sedan LX V-6 5-Spd AT 
Price
Base Price MSRP $25,435* $25,805*  $25,100* 
Destination Charge $660*  $580*  $550* 
Equipped Price $26,095* $27,035*  $25,650* 
Back to top Drivetrain
Engine Name 3.8L V6  3.0L V6  3.0L V6 
Fuel System Sequential Electronic Fuel Injected  Sequential Electronic Fuel Injected  Multi-Port Fuel Injected 
Horsepower @ RPM 200@5200 190@5800  244@6250 
Torque @ RPM 230@4000 197@4400  211@5000 
Fuel Capacity 17.0  18.5  17.1 
Standard Transmission Automatic  Automatic  Automatic 
Transmission Speeds 4  5  5 
Driveline Front Wheel Drive  Front Wheel Drive  Front Wheel Drive 
Final Drive Ratio 2.86 3.29  4.43 
Fuel Economy (City) (mpg) 20  20  20 
Fuel Economy (Highway) (mpg) 30 28  29 
Back to top Exterior Dimensions
Wheelbase (in.) 110.5 107.1  107.9 
Length (in.) 198.1 189.2  191.1 
Height (in.) 57.4 58.7  57.2 
Width (in.) 73.0 70.7  71.6 
Track (front) 61.7 60.8  61.1 
Track (rear) 61.5 60.4  61.2 
Curb Weight (Auto Trans) (lbs.) 3502  3428  3415 
Back to top
Interior Dimensions
Head Room (front) (in.) 39.4 39.2  38.3 
Head Room (rear) (in.) 37.2 38.4  36.8 
Hiproom (front) (in.) 55.3 54.4  54.6 
Hiproom (rear) (in.) 54.6 54.1  53.5 
Leg Room (front) (in.) 42.3 41.6  42.6 
Leg Room (rear) (in.) 37.6 37.8  36.8 
Shoulder Room (front) (in.) 57.2 57.5  56.9 
Shoulder Room (rear) (in.) 57.0 56.7  56.1 
Cargo Volume (mfr.) (cu. ft.) 16.0 16.7  14.0 
Back to top Safety
Vehicle Anti-theft   
Stolen Vehicle Tracking       
Emergency Services       
Traction Control    Added Option  Not Listed 
Vehicle Stability Control System    Added Option   
Roadside Assistance       
Antilock Brakes   
Daytime Running Lights   
Airbags   
Front Side Airbags with Head Protection       
Automatic Notification of Airbag Deployment       
Remote Door Unlock       
Rear Door Child Security Lock-out   
3-Point Center Seat Belt   
Side Guard Door Beams   
Hands-Free, Voice-Activated Phone       
Back to top Performance
Automatic Transmission   
Suspension (Front) Independent  Independent  Independent 
Suspension (Rear) Independent  Independent  Independent 
Brakes (Front) Disc  Disc  Disc 
Brakes (Rear) Disc  Disc  Disc 
Standard Tires SBRP225/60R16 BSW, Goodyear® Integrity All-Season Tires  SBRP215/60R16 94V, All-Season Tires  SBRP215/50R17 93V, All-Season Tires 
Alloy Wheels   
Back to top Comfort
Air Conditioning   
Automatic Climate Control       
Rear Seat HVAC Ducts  Not Listed 
Dual Zone Climate Control       
Interior Air Filter   
Power Windows   
Power Locks   
Steering Wheel Mounted Controls   
Automatic Headlamps   
Illuminated Vanity Mirror   
Solar Ray Tinted Glass   
Multi-Adjustable Power Driver Seat   
Multi-Adjustable Power Passenger Seat       
Front Power Lumbar Support       
Front Adjustable Seat Height   
Front Heated Seats       
Leather Seats       
Leather Steering Wheel       
AM/FM Stereo   
CD Player   
CD Changer   
Radio Anti-theft       
Back to top Convenience
Interior Electrochromic Mirror   
Heated Exterior Mirrors   
Remote Keyless Entry   
Adjustable Steering Column   
Cruise Control   
Tachometer   
Power Sunroof   
Back to top Warranty
Basic Warranty Time (Months) 48 36  36 
Basic Warranty Miles 50000 36000  36000 
Powertrain Warranty Time (Months) 48  60  60 
Powertrain Warranty Miles 50000  60000  60000 
Rust Warranty Time (Months) 72 60  60 
Rust Warranty Miles 100000  Unlimited  Unlimited 
AIC Logo

Automotive Information Center, an independent online automotive buyer's guide.
Certain specifications, prices and equipment data have been provided under license from Automotive Information Center (AIC). © 2004 Automotive Information Center.

All Rights Reserved. This information is supplied for personal use only and may not be used for any commercial purpose whatsoever without the express written consent of Automotive Information Center.

Although AIC checks regularly with auto manufacturers and their representatives to confirm the accuracy and completeness of the data, it makes no guarantee or warranty, either express or implied, including without limitation any warranty or merchantability or fitness for particular purpose, with respect to the data presented here. All specifications, prices and equipment are subject to change without notice.

Specification Data Provided from AIC
Copyright © 2005 Automotive information Center. All Rights Reserved
GM.com Copyright & Trademark Info | Privacy | Contact Us | Buick Owners | GM Sites | Search | Site Map
©2005 General Motors Corp.
*Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Tax, title, license, dealer fees, and optional equipment are extra.

[post="55358"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sorry but that tells nothing about the cars at all. You cant look at a sheet of paper and know which is the better car. What would make someone pick the LaCrosse over an Accord? Or over a 300? Or over a 500? I know, they are over 65 and it have been loyal to Buick forever. Thats the only reason I can think of.

[turbo200]

That gives nothing concrete about the level of engineering that went in to all three cars. You are yet again displaying your dealer salesman sense; comparing features hasn't made sense to me since all cars started having all features. The way real people compare a car they are going to live with for an undisclosed amount of time is drive them.

[Guest buickman]

That gives nothing concrete about the level of engineering that went in to all three cars. You are yet again displaying your dealer salesman sense; comparing features hasn't made sense to me since all cars started having all features. The way real people compare a car they are going to live with for an undisclosed amount of time is drive them.

[post="55464"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Quite true. Now how to get them on the shopping list for consideration?

[turbo200]

not through marketing. there are already plenty of ads going for the lacrosse, impala, cobalt, hhr, etc. The best advertisement is word of mouth, the rolling advertisement. HHR became a hit because people liked the design. Now Red Tag will kill the resale, and that IS a problem with marketing, but we've already discussed why that was brought in. STS and CTS were rolling advertisements of Cadillac's style renaissance. Seems GM's only breakout hits of the past few years have been cars that were styled right, Escalade, anyone?

[Guest buickman]

not through marketing. there are already plenty of ads going for the lacrosse, impala, cobalt, hhr, etc. The best advertisement is word of mouth, the rolling advertisement. HHR became a hit because people liked the design. Now Red Tag will kill the resale, and that IS a problem with marketing, but we've already discussed why that was brought in. STS and CTS were rolling advertisements of Cadillac's style renaissance. Seems GM's only breakout hits of the past few years have been cars that were styled right, Escalade, anyone?

[post="55566"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I believe you and I are finding a middle ground. We agree Red Tag is detrimental, driving the car is the best sales tool, design sells, and word of mouth is the most powerful advertisement. The reason I say marketing is key, and push so hard for Return to Greatness, is that it can and will begin the process of turning the general public's attitude to seeing GM in a positive light and make the vehicles desirable as opposed to distressed. Great product is really the long term solution, but in the short term we certainly could use some effective marketing, particularly such that is less expensive and more cost effective. Is The Plan the be all and end all? Definitely not, it's simply the right way to begin the process. Edited December 9, 2005 by buickman

[razoredge]

Boy, fellas I see your still nit pickin. Of course someone needs to drive a car and will make there pick based on that and appearence. However if you cant get anything from those specs, on the positive side, it shows exactly what I have been saying. Gm simply doesnt stand a chance. Those spec show that the Lacrosse is priced, sized and performed competitively in all areas. We have heard all kinds of talk about the size and interior room and engine specs and old chassis but yet these specs show that the Lacrosse is right there with the competition. "Level of engineering" or "technology" give me a break ! Never happy, never, never, never, never, never, never. wah, wah, wah, wah, wah :( Dont cry :(

[Guest buickman]

Boy, fellas I see your still nit pickin.

Of course someone needs to drive a car and will make there pick based on that and appearence. However if you cant get anything from those specs, on the positive side, it shows exactly what I have been saying. Gm simply doesnt stand a chance.

Those spec show that the Lacrosse is priced, sized and performed competitively in all areas. We have heard all kinds of talk about the size and interior room and engine specs and old chassis but yet these specs show that the Lacrosse is right there with the competition.

"Level of engineering" or "technology" give me a break ! Never happy, never, never, never, never, never, never. wah, wah, wah, wah, wah  :(

Dont cry  :(

[post="55605"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

www.buick.com has a competitve comparison section that I find very useful in the sales process. Once while near Philly I popped into a Buick store to check the action and attitudes. A salesman was struggling to sell a LaCrosse prospect who was wanting to go check out a Toyota before deciding. I showed the manager the Buick site, he brought up the stats, got with the salesman, who then closed the deal on the spot. Check it out for fun and see how well GM products truly line up favorably vs. the supposedly superior sleds. Now we just have to change people's perception. Edited December 9, 2005 by buickman

[The O.C.]

Your ratios are close. Realize however that in the Flint market there were 6 rather large Buick stores, Al Serra, McNally, MacGillivary, Waldron, Martin, and Williamson. The competition was, and is, heated. With mostly fixed pricing those who rose to the top had to be the cream of their profession in order to win the business since the difference between dealers and salespeople was the level of service. You don't deliver 126 units in one month by being an order taker when the average salesman in the market does 12. I developed The Plan as a result of my success in winning business, which began with local clientel that spread to having customers nationwide. These days, I regularly deal with people throughout the country as a result of building a business by word of mouth.

[post="55355"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Jim,

Delivering 126 units in a month is on average delivering 4+ units a DAY.....working an entire 30 day work-month.

At that rate, you don't even have time to SELL cars, much less deliver them.....sounds no less than "order-taking" to me.....

And YES....I've spent time in retail as well......selling on the floor, and as a Sales Manager at a high-volume (400+ units per month) BMW dealership....

[razoredge]

We have a dealer here that has a "Hugeathon" :lol: Every Aug for the whole month he or his staff work straight through and the goal is to sell 1000 Hyundias, he really has put alot of Hyundais on the road around these parts. I know hes hurting the other dealers, that 10/100,000 really has to sell too. Edited December 9, 2005 by razoredge

[Guest buickman]

Jim,

Delivering 126 units in a month is on average delivering 4+ units a DAY.....working an entire 30 day work-month.

At that rate, you don't even have time to SELL cars, much less deliver them.....sounds no less than "order-taking" to me.....

And YES....I've spent time in retail as well......selling on the floor, and as a Sales Manager at a high-volume (400+ units per month) BMW dealership....

[post="55626"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It helped reading Joe Girard's book. I hired assistants to help me. One did paperwork full time, another got the cars ready, changed plates, went over features at delivery, and parked trades. I did the prospecting, meet and greet, model selection, presentation, sent them on their own demo ride, and did the close. It worked quite well as my last year I averaged over 80 per month, no fleet. I simply developed a plan that worked. Edited December 9, 2005 by buickman

[Croc]

80 per month is a lot more reasonable than 126 per month, but still rather high. I have a hard time believing your numbers. 3 per operating day (assuming 26 business days per month) is hard to believe. Even if your numbers are true, to achieve those numbers you had to have been in an area that DESIRED Buicks to begin with as you seem to have been very successful at sales, with an exceptionally good rate of making a sale. Knowing how uncompetitive the product has been, I find it hard to believe you actually "sold" people on the product. That is unreal demand, and unreal rates of sales. Back me up, Tanners...

[balthazar]

I find it hard to believe you actually "sold" people on the product.  That is unreal demand, and unreal rates of sales.

You find it "hard to believe" because of this personal perception/ opinion:

Knowing how uncompetitive the product has been...

and because you have unilaterally rejected the plan as completely ineffective.
The vehicle specs show the car to be completely competitive in the major areas that the average consumer looks for (general performance, MPG, room, price, etc). I know you'd find it hard to believe anyone would chose a LaC over an accord or camry after a test drive, too.
I'm sure none of the marketing ideas Buickman uses had anything to do with even 2 of those 80 sales per month, so it must be every other possibility under the sun, because it can't be the marketing... Edited December 9, 2005 by balthazar

[Guest buickman]

80 per month is a lot more reasonable than 126 per month, but still rather high.  I have a hard time believing your numbers.  3 per operating day (assuming 26 business days per month) is hard to believe.  Even if your numbers are true, to achieve those numbers you had to have been in an area that DESIRED Buicks to begin with as you seem to have been very successful at sales, with an exceptionally good rate of making a sale.  Knowing how uncompetitive the product has been, I find it hard to believe you actually "sold" people on the product.  That is unreal demand, and unreal rates of sales.

Back me up, Tanners...

[post="55676"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I should point out that the 80 per month average (did do 126 twice, both times in December), actually included GMC. Since the early 1980's I've been big on home deliveries which are a great convenience for the customer and time saver for the salesman. Even these days, roughly half my sales are delivered to the customer's home or place of business. It is immensely popular and I would attribute a large degree of my success to offering this service. You may find it hard to believe but I have hundreds of customers whom I've never met in person.

Trust me, the sales I made were surely not by being an order taker. I arrived early, worked the service lane and body shop, stayed well into the evening working the phone. I joined numerous organizations (Sloan Museum, Historical Society, Toastmasters, Jaycees) in order to meet new people. I sent birthday, Xmas, and thank you cards, and paid birddog fees. It got to the point that I had so much referral business that I quit taking "ups" back in the early 90's. Due to my bonus program, management at the store was not allowed to give me any "house deals", which only made me stronger. If you feed a wild animal, it won't hunt. Edited December 9, 2005 by buickman

[The O.C.]

80 per month is a lot more reasonable than 126 per month, but still rather high.  I have a hard time believing your numbers.  3 per operating day (assuming 26 business days per month) is hard to believe.  Even if your numbers are true, to achieve those numbers you had to have been in an area that DESIRED Buicks to begin with as you seem to have been very successful at sales, with an exceptionally good rate of making a sale.  Knowing how uncompetitive the product has been, I find it hard to believe you actually "sold" people on the product.  That is unreal demand, and unreal rates of sales.

Back me up, Tanners...

[post="55676"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You're right Croc.....BUT if he did hire assistants, he could have delivered that many.

Listen.....certainly Jim is a good salesperson and probably did achieve the levels of success he alludes to.

HOWEVER, I think the point that myself, Croc, Turbo200, and others are trying to make is that REGARDLESS of how successful Buickman was.....it's a WHOLE different animal trying to repeat that kind of sales success with the Buick brand (or Pontiac, or Chevrolet cars, etc) in a market like California, or the southeast, or the northeast, or D.C......areas where imports are increasingly dominent.

I've said many times that I don't believe for a MINUTE that Michigan, (or the midwest in general) is in any sense a true, realistic view of the automotive market. Simply put, you've got WAY too many people tied to the Big3 (employees, retirees, suppliers) that may get their purchase decisions HEAVILY influenced by either who employees them (company loyalty) and/or the huge discounts they are allowed BECAUSE of where they work.

[balthazar]

If Michigan is not "realistic" because it's domestic-slanted, surely CA is not "realistic" either because it's heavily import-slanted. A realistic market would match the overall breakdown of domestic vs. import (60% / 40%??) and not be located near any manufacturer's facilities.

The point, I feel, is still being glossed over. Sure, perhaps the steps would not return the level of success that Jim has seen in MI, but it doesn't have to; the intent is to INCREASE sales, not match MI sales. If great cutomer treatment & benefits produce outstanding results in MI, if they produced "merely" better results in other markets.... it's a success, right?

[turbo200]

CA still sees sales of GM's most popular models. Cobalt, Impala, Cadillacs, Tahoe, Yukon, Escalade, are all very popular here. You could say the most desirable vehicles sell because people know the market better here. MI is not just domestic-slanter, imports are fairly non-existant. Taking a look at other markets aside from MI was my point, and the fact that in Flint 8 or 9 of buickman's sales go to employees. Ask him yourself, he gave that statistic himself once at CZ28.

[Guest buickman]

CA still sees sales of GM's most popular models. Cobalt, Impala, Cadillacs, Tahoe, Yukon, Escalade, are all very popular here. You could say the most desirable vehicles sell because people know the market better here. MI is not just domestic-slanter, imports are fairly non-existant. Taking a look at other markets aside from MI was my point, and the fact that in Flint 8 or 9 of buickman's sales go to employees. Ask him yourself, he gave that statistic himself once at CZ28.

[post="55813"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually it has become somewhat fashionable to drive foreign in Flint, quite amazingly so. It took me 8 years to rise to the top of my profession, unfortunately I don't have that much time to devote to proving myself elsewhere. I did come to Flint and begin in the worst area I could find. All I can offer now is "been there, done that". I can share with you though that I have consulted with dealers around the country and they have seen remarkable results incorporating sound marketing principles. Again, I feel the need to ask what would be wrong with simply trying Return to Greatness as there is no cost involved and it would lower expenses. More importantly, what if I'm right and it works? Edited December 9, 2005 by buickman

[Croc]

and because you have unilaterally rejected the plan as completely ineffective.
The vehicle specs show the car to be completely competitive in the major areas that the average consumer looks for (general performance, MPG, room, price, etc). I know you'd find it hard to believe anyone would chose a LaC over an accord or camry after a test drive, too.
I'm sure none of the marketing ideas Buickman uses had anything to do with even 2 of those 80 sales per month, so it must be every other possibility under the sun, because it can't be the marketing...

[post="55685"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Get a grip. First he averaged 126 a month, now he's admitting that was only twice. Then he says 80 Buicks per month, now he's admitting it included GMC. That is much more reasonable, especially giving the state of the products. Hey guess what Balthazar, he wasn't selling LaCrosses. He was doing this for years primarily during the 1990s, and I am well aware of the state of the product line then. I like Buick, but at the same time I am realistic as to the competition, something you could use to be.

[Croc]

If Michigan is not "realistic" because it's domestic-slanted, surely CA is not "realistic" either because it's heavily import-slanted. A realistic market would match the overall breakdown of domestic vs. import (60% / 40%??) and not be located near any manufacturer's facilities.

[post="55811"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

CA is a very good measurement for a market due to its lack of manufacturing ties. CA also has a great deal of diversity. Every minority is represented in CA. CA is a great market to measure because of the diversity, the overall neutrality due to lack of manufacturing ties, and also the fact that with the cost of living so high especially in the Southern region, cars are relatively cheaper than the rest of the country. Since people can almost buy anything they would like, price sensitivity is lower and people buy vehicles because it is what they WANT not so much what they can afford.

[Guest buickman]

Never said I averaged 126. Best day delivered 19, March 1 1999. I may not be the best ever but don't know anyone who has exceeded my track record. Don't doubt it brother. Edited December 9, 2005 by buickman

[turbo200]

\All I can offer now is "been there, done that". I can share with you though that I have consulted with dealers around the country and they have seen remarkable results incorporating sound marketing principles. Again, I feel the need to ask what would be wrong with simply trying Return to Greatness as there is no cost involved and it would lower expenses. More importantly, what if I'm right and it works?

[post="55818"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What were the "sound marketing principles" and how were they related to your plan? I'd just like it if you were a lot less vague sometimes and gave us something concrete on how your ideas made an impact.

As for your plan, there's no plan for getting market share in areas where GM is really hurting. How do you plan to tackle that? Do you just hope to sell to more employees? How will this plan appeal to the coasts?

[Guest buickman]

What were the "sound marketing principles" and how were they related to your plan? I'd just like it if you were a lot less vague sometimes and gave us something concrete on how your ideas made an impact.

As for your plan, there's no plan for getting market share in areas where GM is really hurting. How do you plan to tackle that? Do you just hope to sell to more employees? How will this plan appeal to the coasts?

[post="55845"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Usually I initially analyze the inventory which is the lifeblood of the business. Often times dealers are unaware of economic order quantities or proper diversification. next I institute a prospecting/follow up system which I've developed which delivers instant results. it has to do with touching base as opposed to actually trying to sell a car. High on the list is the dealer's marketing campaign. Most usually the dealer is wasting money, adding to the confusiong noise in the market. For example, one dealer Dieckhaus Buick was making use of their long existence and building image around the American flag. Instead, I came up with "From Dieckhaus to Your House" and promote home deliveries. It worked. There's lots more but I really don't want to "give away" all my trade secrets here on a public forum. Edited December 9, 2005 by buickman

[CaddyXLR-V]

GM will never return to greatness unless they get their costs in line. I mean costs of building their cars, not marketing them. GM needs to operate as one company throughout the world, and not separate entities in each country, with separate platforms for each. That is step one for GM returning to greatness. GM needs money to operate. If GM sells more cars, they might be making more money, but that still would be less money than any of their competitors would be making with the same sales, and it wouldn't fix GMs real problems. Unless this plan will make the masses buy Malibus at $30,000 each, it will not solve GMs problems. Edited December 9, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[Guest buickman]

GM will never return to greatness unless they get their costs in line. I mean costs of building their cars, not marketing them. GM needs to operate as one company throughout the world, and not separate entities in each country, with separate platforms for each. That is step one for GM returning to greatness. GM needs money to operate. If GM sells more cars, they might be making more money, but that still would be less money than any of their competitors would be making with the same sales, and it wouldn't fix GMs real problems. Unless this plan will make the masses buy Malibus at $30,000 each, it will not solve GMs problems.

[post="55853"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM could take a cool Billion out of the advertising and sell more vehicles. What they're doing now is so detrimental, it would actually be more producitve to throw the money out the window at the Ren Cen.

[Croc]

GM could take a cool Billion out of the advertising and sell more vehicles. What they're doing now is so detrimental, it would actually be more producitve to throw the money out the window at the Ren Cen.

[post="55892"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. So, what is it now that they are doing that is "so detrimental"? To me, cost cutting is great.

[razoredge]

and thus we see how four year political terms accomplish nothing and then the cycle begins again, and so on and so forth

[Guest buickman]

riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.  So, what is it now that they are doing that is "so detrimental"?  To me, cost cutting is great.

[post="55900"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Let's start with Red Tag, Road to Redemption, March Madness, Overnight Test Drive, Hot Button, 72 Hour Sale, Four on Us, Value Certificates, Coupons, and Vouchers (try and figure those babies out). GMS to Everyone, Boomer Esiason, Harley Earl, Howie Long, Oprah, Suze Orman, and Martha Stewart. Add in Your Father's Oldsmobile, Ben Hur, The Caddy that Zigs, One Better, Spirit of American Style, Dream Up, and Beyond Precision. TOTAL VALUE PROMISE from the no nonsense nitwits. Hurry Before It Ends!!!!

[regfootball]

since no one wants the cars they have to advertise the crap out of them and discount the hell out of them just to get anyone in the door.

[Guest buickman]

since no one wants the cars they have to advertise the crap out of them and discount the hell out of them just to get anyone in the door.

[post="56077"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I feel GM vehicles are of high quality, reliability, and style. They are fuel efficient and safe. The reason they are not aspirational is the distress merchandising and brand destroying advertisements and promotions.