Return to Greatness

[91z4me]

A board seat or two for Mr. Kerkorian and his cronies would surely be Rick Wagoner's worst nightmare. But perhaps a major shake-up of the board and the executive suite is the only medicine that can stop the bleeding at what was once the world's greatest manufacturer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry Keenan is the anchor of Cashin’ In and an FNC business correspondent

[post="53676"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It would surely be bad for GM. Mark my words guys Kerkorian on the board would mean selling off profitable areas and then running. Jim, you who say you want the best for GM, should understand this as well as any: We don't want Kirk getting representation!

[Guest buickman]

Tom Lasorda is the president of Chrysler. He is a former GM guy who rose through the manufacturing ranks and is greatly responsible for the surge in sales and profit at Daimler/Chrysler. There are others at GM capable of leading the company, however I hesitate to mention their names at this time so as to not place undue attention or compromise on them personally.

[razoredge]

Boy, most of you are only good at throwing insults, you should be paid great fortunes for your skills. Funny how you want to bash down the workers because the insurance and health care industry got extremely greedy. Blow off the fact that Wagner pissed away 4 billion THAT WOULD HAVE GONE FOR THIS PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT YOU ARE ALL CRYING ABOUT. STILL AND ALL YOU KNOW ITS BECAUSE OF THEM F'IN WORKERS LETS SEE IF WE HAD BACK THE 4 BILLION FIAT, AND WHAT WAS IT ? A 3 BILLION INCREASE TO THE "HEALTH CARE" THAT BE WHAT, 7 BILLION ???? HMM, VERY VERY INTERESTING Ya know I think ya'll will make really great CEO's one day. You will be able to squander money left and right and ignore it. You will be able to set up a great big distraction from your mistakes and blame the end of civilation on Adam and Eve.

[evok]

Can we PLEASE get Evok in here to rip this guys schtick to shreds again, I really like reading that.  Effective marketing ony helps if it is for something people want to buy. 

[post="53624"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

When was the last time you saw a Prius commercial? The car that sells itself. Novel concept! Over 7,000 happy buyers last month alone. Without much marketing.

It has been 6 months since the 20 Pts have been made public. Toyota, Honda, Ford, DCX etc, have yet to adopt any of them. I wonder out loud why? Edited December 6, 2005 by evok

[prototype66]

No one said "Return to Greatness" would end all of GM's problems. Yes, there are labor relations, healthcare and manufacturing problems GM needs to deal with and I am sure buickman is fully aware of that. However, who better to comment on GM's marketing (or lack thereof) than someone who's livelihood depends on selling GM's products? Take it for what it is, and offer suggestions on how you think it should be improved, but keep the language and name calling to yourselves for once.

[post="53482"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Really, lets not get juvinal with the name calling and cutting each other down. Everyone on this sight, I assume, wants gm to sucseed in making a comeback to leadership. However, we also know there are many many issues to resolve, revamp or just fix. Everyones opinion on the topic should be welcome as long as they are constructive,not destructive.The failure and fall of an orginisation always starts from within because of bad attitudes and negitivity when that is the LAST thing needed.IMO ther are significant improvements due in all areas to bring GM back.It all starts with one step.Lets not trip them before the journey begins,shall we? B)

[91z4me]

Blow off the fact that Wagner pissed away 4 billion THAT WOULD HAVE GONE FOR THIS PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT YOU ARE ALL CRYING ABOUT.

STILL AND ALL YOU KNOW ITS BECAUSE OF THEM F'IN WORKERS

LETS SEE IF WE HAD BACK THE 4 BILLION FIAT, AND WHAT WAS IT ? A 3 BILLION INCREASE TO THE "HEALTH CARE" THAT BE WHAT, 7 BILLION ????

HMM, VERY VERY INTERESTING

Ya know I think ya'll will make really great CEO's one day. You will be able to squander money left and right and ignore it. You will be able to set up a great big distraction from your mistakes and blame the end of civilation on Adam and Eve.

[post="53689"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yeah thats right Fiat was JUST Ricks fault. That is right only 1 person brokered that deal. :rolleyes: There were MANY probably hundreds of people who looked at the Fiat contract and determined, at the time, that it was in GM's best intrest.

D*MN right I will make a good CEO one day. I will own MY own practice. It will be mine. Heck I manage 1 office now and assist in running 10+ others. I understand marketing and product. I work in healthcare so I can't really change my product BUT I can change how it is presented and change HOW it is perceived. GM has started working on both of these while bringing out updates of effectively the same models, W-bodies. At the same time they are tapping GLOBAL resources in producing all new models and extensive updates on the cheap. Daewoo was a freaking steal for what they got it for and it is starting to pay off. Daewoo is engineering whole ranks of small cars and crossovers tailored for the European, South America, US, and Pacific markets. Holden is engineering ALL new RWD car programs. Europe is specializing in FWD midsize cars for the WORLD. The US is making the BEST BOF and Unibody trucks even better.

GM is finally doing what it said it would 5+ years ago because that is how long it takes to get things going within GM.

God many of you people who complain about others not understanding the system clearly do not themselves.

[Croc]

91z4me: WORD. big facking WORD.

[prototype66]

:huh:

91z4me: WORD.  big facking WORD.

[post="53721"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

?

[Shantanu]

The basic question remains: Is there nobody better than Rick Wagoner on this planet to run GM? I'm not sure Rick Wagoner could run a McDonald's restraunt properly. I think they should spend whatever money it takes to bring in someone to fix GM.

[buyacargetacheck]

Much of what Buickman is recommending is dealer-oriented. And that's good because GM's greatest strength is probably its vast dealer body and distribution system. It's curious why GM management hasn't implemented at least some of the ideas? After all, one of the first things a marketer does when reevaluating a plan is SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats). Little of what GM does, it seems, is directed to improve the dealer experience. If GM can't be known for the absolute best vehicles, surely its dealers could gain that distinction as a whole? By the way, the lack of good "dealer experience" is a huge negative for Toyota (based on my own experience and Power surveys). Sounds like an opportunity to me Buickman.

[91z4me]

Much of what Buickman is recommending is dealer-oriented.  And that's good because GM's greatest strength is probably its vast dealer body and distribution system.  It's curious why GM management hasn't implemented at least some of the ideas?  After all, one of the first things a marketer does when reevaluating a plan is SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats).  Little of what GM does, it seems, is directed to improve the dealer experience.  If GM can't be known for the absolute best vehicles, surely its dealers could gain that distinction as a whole?  By the way, the lack of good "dealer experience" is a huge negative for Toyota (based on my own experience and Power surveys).  Sounds like an opportunity to me Buickman.

[post="53769"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree that its dealers could be a potential boost to GM BUT right now a lot are hurting GM's image by providing poor customer service and giving the wrong marketing message. GM provides dealers with hundreds of hours of stock footage and commercials that they only have to put their logo and stuff on. Instead showing this they show ads that remind me of the current Walmart or the past K-mart. Always advertising the biggest discount, we will no be undersold, we have the best promotions. It makes me sick that these people don't understand short term sacrafices for long term gain.

I agree that GM dealers could implement some of his suggestions since they do center around dealers but remember the dealers are independant franchises and GM has almost NO control over them. GM can make suggestions but it takes the regional dealer associations to really cause any change and right now everyone is to busy looking out for themselves that they don't see the bigger picture.

[drew770]

Wagoner has had his chance to run GM and to be honest he has not being an effective leader. As the leader it is your job to take responsiblity for bad deals, missed chances, and stupid ideas. GM has had all in the passed 5 years. Yes, Wagoner should take responsiblity for the Fiat mess, missing the hybrid boat, ignoring the market shift to rw drive automobiles, not being flexible enough to deal with a eventual down turn in suv and truck sales, lack of focus on volume selling CARS, and not dealing with the union - healthcare costs soon enough! We all understand how difficult it is to engineer and manufactor cars and how difficult it is in dealing with the UAW but it is your job as CEO to get things done and if you can not then get out and move on!!

[The O.C.]

Car salesmen are the scum of the earth, why the hell would any company want to listen to the ideas a salesman has about improving the company?  Especially when things like bad UAW contracts and retiree payouts and flat out sub-par cars aren't taken into acocunt.  Can we PLEASE get Evok in here to rip this guys schtick to shreds again, I really like reading that.  Effective marketing ony helps if it is for something people want to buy.  Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on marketing wont do a goddamn thing if the cars being marketed aren't very good.  You could have the most well laid out ad campaign, the most charming, convincing salesmen and all the crap you suggest, but it doesn't mean a thing if there is a better car for sale at the same price next door.  Right now people are cheap and GM cars are, for the most part, not as good as the competitions, so incentives are the only way to move them to non-GM die-hards.

[post="53624"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Here you go.....I actually saved this......you'll find each of Buickman's "steps" followed by MHOs of his "steps." I may be no Evok, but at least this gives you something to ponder.....(sorry for the looooong post)

This whole plan seems to be a Michigan-centric proposal that does next to nothing to really address the major challenges that GM faces….those challenges being over-capacity, excessive costs, lackluster product, and in many cases, a severly-ineffective dealer body. Not much of this plan seems relevant in the “real world” outside of Michigan or the Midwest, nor does it address the challenge of selling, marketing, and promoting GM vehicles to conquest buyers. GM’s problems are far larger than depicted in these twenty points.


A RETURN TO GREATNESS
Step One: When "The Return" is initially announced, we proclaim the
elimination of Destination Charges. If you want to pay freight, get a
foreign car.

· First of all, GM needs revenue……and the destination charges are something that’s acceptable industry-wide. There is no reason to get rid of these charges as long as they are in line with other manufacturer’s charges. To do so will reduce one source of revenue for General Motors.

Step Two: Ten days after the original announcement we release the next step,
the elimination of mid-year price increases.

· Customers neither care or probably realize that mid-year price increases actually take place. GM needs to build value in their products and if you build products that people actually want to buy, then occasional mid-year price adjustments won’t be a factor in GM’s success.

Step Three: Announcement of simplified quarterly incentive changes. No more
pressure to buy now, hurry before it ends, only to be followed by another
program.

· Simplified incentives are fine. However, you will ALWAYS have the situation where someone buys a car and the next day the incentive changes. This will happen whether the incentive is monthly OR quarterly. The very NATURE of the retail automotive industry, in fact ANY sales-oriented industry, is that there will be pressure to “buy now” as companies attempt to meet or exceed monthly, quarterly, or yearly objectives. Furthermore, customers will ALWAYS worry what the “deal” will be. It is in our very nature to negotiate. We do that on houses, and we do that on cars. This is NOT a GM-only fact of life. Furthermore, even if GM WERE to take this step and reduce the “urgency” of the sale, other auto competitors will NOT….and therefore, their existing sense of “urgency” will give them more powerful momentum.

Step Four: Destination Detroit is move number four. In this announcement we
explain our decision to bring all future award winning dealers and
salespeople to Detroit as their reward for a job well done.

· If you are trying to motivate dealers and salespeople, I’m sorry….but a trip to Detroit is NOT going to do it. Hometown pride is great and admirable but it’s a fact of life that Detroit is NOT a leisure or entertainment destination and trying to convince dealers and salespeople to work harder with “Detroit” as a reward will be fruitless at best. I like the idea about a trip to the proving grounds, but in this case, a trip to the Phoenix Proving Grounds would be much more enticing with all the attractions, spas, resorts, and golfing of the Phoenix/Scottsdale area. The expenses saved from executives NOT traveling for this meeting would be minimal and would not strongly impact GM’s bottom line.

Step Five: Home Deliveries. We announce an effort of working with our
dealers to bring the customer the vehicle of their choice, directly to their
place of employment, or residence.

· With every “docs-out” or “home” delivery you do, you take profit opportunities AWAY from the dealership, primarily in the finance department. Maybe home deliveries would be more popular in Michigan, where so many retail customers ARE GM employees….and for them, buying a car is not as big of a deal. In fact, when most GM employees buy multiple cars in a year, and work in the industry, they don’t “need” to take delivery at the dealership. This is most assuredly not the case in the rest of the country. Additionally, customers STILL need to come TO the dealership to shop and negotiate. And in many areas of the country, “spot” deliveries (where the customer takes the car home THAT day) are commonplace. Having a customer wait for a home delivery only reduces profit potential at the dealership AND gives the customer additional time to “rethink” their decision and back out of the deal. It happens.


Step Six: We announce a very simple and easy to understand incentive...Got
GM Get GM. It is a loyalty incentive that anyone can comprehend. If you
currently own or lease a GM vehicle, you receive $1,000. It is stackable and
compatible with any offering, transferable to family member at same address.
No goofy rebate if you own a non-GM car. Who thought of that one anyway? Why
reward disloyalty, or have to ask customers if they own a competitve
product? Let's only give something to those who already support us.

· A GM loyalty incentive is a good idea. However, you cannot stop offering incentives to owners of competing makes. GM cannot survive on its current owners, employees, and retirees for the purchase of GM cars. GM needs to gain market-share from owners of competing makes and one way to do that is to give them a reason to come into a GM dealership. Unfortunately, at this time, the GM product is NOT enough of a reason to entice these consumers. It may be someday, but not now. Incentives are here to stay and as long as GM remains REASONABLE with their incentives and rebates, that’s not a bad thing.

Step Seven: Annual Model Change.

· Once again, if GM does this, they will be at a severe competitive disadvantage. One of the reasons that vehicle introductions became staggered throughout the year, was to gain the “upper hand” against a competitor that was also bringing out a new and competing model. Back 50 years ago, when competition was much less, the Big Three were a mainstay of the U.S. retail auto industry, and all manufacturers introduced new cars in the fall timeframe, this was a great idea. The very nature of the industry now and the number of competitors makes this an unrealistic practice. GM may decide to wait until the fall to introduce their new models, but their competitors surely will not. The competition will be more successful in pulling consumers into their showrooms to sell them their newest products instead of consumers “waiting” until fall to see what GM has to offer.

Step Eight: Increase Dealer Margin.

· Realistically, any increase in margin will be followed by an increase in price. NOW, if GM products get to a strong enough point of acceptance in the marketplace, this increase in price should not be a big issue. They are NOT at this point of acceptance yet. Asking GM to increase margins without a corresponding increase in price is asking GM to give up revenue they desperately need right now.

Step Nine: Get On The Street. Each month, each salary member of VSSM would
be required to spend one day in a randomly selected dealership service
department, preferably in write up.

· All GM employees, (and employees at any manufacturer for that matter) should spend time working in a dealership to get a true feel for the retail environment. However, I don’t see this as being a big impact to the dealership’s productivity. It’s a good idea, but not a big enough impact to probably be included as one of the points in GM’s “Return To Greatness.”


Step Ten: AARP. This is a fantastic demographic, and another opportunity to
simplify incentives. Make it a year-round program.

· AARP is a good program, and a good targeted marketing incentive. However, like above, the impact is likely to be way too small to add to GM’s “Return To Greatness.” AARP, in the overall scheme of things, is a highly-targeted demographic and a correspondingly small proportion of the car-buying public. This incentive would primarily be aimed at GM retirees or Buick consumers. This incentive would do next-to-nothing towards helping convince shoppers at BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Toyota, or Lexus stores to come into a GM dealership.

Step Eleven: Brand Merchandise Offerings: Include with each delivery a
coupon for $50 off, or towards, merchandise from an affinity catalog.

· Good idea. You could target the brand merchandise offerings to match the individual GM divisional brand image. HOWEVER, once again, the impact from this promotion would do little to correct GM’s market share slide. GM’s problem today is WAY bigger than this.

Step Twelve: Auto Shows. Instead of the current practice of giving rebates
to certain residents of surrounding counties, let's offer auto show tickets
to those who test drive our products.

· Auto shows cost, $9, $10, $11 to get in. I don’t see this as making any impact. Auto show tickets alone aren’t going to bring new consumers into a GM dealership.

Step Thirteen: At year end, instead of giving our employees a cash award for
profit sharing, reward them with stock, and make them true partners in the
company's success.

· A nice idea, however, this does nothing to help fix the “core” problem at GM….and that’s the competitiveness of their products and the perception of GM products in the marketplace by those consumers that GM NEEDS to attract from the Japanese and European car shoppers.

Step Fourteen: PEP Cars. Quite often, GM executives turn in their factory
demos with the mileage just under the next price discount level. This
practice is both frustrating and annoying. The inconsideration shown to
fellow employees, and retirees, is inexcusable and unacceptable. GM needs to
announce a policy of driving the unit to the next mileage category whenever
the driver is within say 250 miles of the next price break.

· No impact from this point. GM PEP cars are a phenomenon that only merits any importance from people living in Michigan (or surrounding states where people work at GM factories, etc.) where the majority of GM company cars are in service. Furthermore, these PEP cars are usually sold to GM employees and retirees. Complaining about losing out on an additional GM discount, when you are already getting a substantial discount on a PEP car is a needless and petty point to argue when it has nothing to do with GM gaining market-share in places like Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, and New York.

Step Fifteen: Referral Savings Account. Similar to the GM Card (another
crisis), GM announces a program to accumulate a savings of $50 for each
referral who buys or leases a new vehicle.

· At $50 per referral, a consumer would never accumulate enough dollars to make the incentive strong enough to pull him/her into a GM dealership. Once again, maybe GM employees in Michigan might utilize such a program but in the REST of the country, how many people do you really think would refer a significant number of people to buy a GM car, then to actually redeem those dollars at a GM dealership? GM has to get people to CONSIDER their products for purchase FIRST before you can think about those consumers actually referring someone to buy a GM vehicle.

Step Sixteen: Free GM Smart Care Maintenance Agreement to all GM Retirees.
This 36 month 36,000 mile program would offer free recommended maintenance
to all GM retirees.

· Simply MORE “legacy costs” at a time when GM most assuredly does NOT need them. GM retirees are NOT going to save GM so there is little point in spending money in this way to further incentivize them. They are most likely going to continue to buy GM vehicles ANYWAY due to the discounts they receive. GM needs to spend money to improve product and increase market share….NOT foster goodwill with retirees.

Step Seventeen: GM Card. This was one of the best programs GM has ever had.
That was until someone decided to take earnings away, and thereby alienate
thousands of employee cardholders.

· I cannot comment as I am unfamiliar with the GM Card and recent activity that has supposedly made it a less-than-desirable incentive.

Step Eighteen: Sales Guilds. For years GM had brand specific sales guilds.
Now, everything is combined into the GM Mark of Excellence. It's a decent
enough program, but it would be more effective to return to the old days of
Buick Salesmaster and the Chevrolet Legion of Leaders.

· Unlikely to strongly impact GM’s falling market-share. The salespeople need good, competitive product to sell. That’s the first step.

Step Nineteen: Direct Factory Communication: Imagine going to your local
dealer and ordering a new vehicle.

· What percentage of GM vehicle purchases are actually custom-ordered? Not many. Due to this fact, this point has very little impact on GM’s overall challenges.

Step Twenty: Reinstatement of Regional Sales Training Classes. Years ago, GM
offered professional sales development classes at their regional training
centers.

· This point adds serious cost, which GM cannot afford right now. Sales training is ALWAYS beneficial, but most manufacturers these days utilize various computer and internet tools to train salespeople. Additionally, the dealership sales managers should be empowered to make sure their respective sales forces are properly trained. That is one function that the individual GM district sales manager should be responsible for on a local level. Regional sales training centers are an unnecessary expense. If a salesperson is not disciplined enough to utilize the computer, internet, and print materials available to him/her, than they shouldn’t be in the business in the first place.

Please respond with your thoughts, and PROXIES.

I just did!

[regfootball]

am i the only one with a HUGE sense of deja vu here? didn't we go through all this stuff like a year ago? I am weary, and tired.

[turbo200]

I can't believe some of these steps are even part of the "Return to Greatness." What a ridicule you are making of yourself buickman, and showing how far you are inset in the Detroit, Michigan mindset. You don't understand problems of image and mentality. GM is the country's KMart or Payless, and no, this is not just for snobs. But for people who realistically go through and shop for thier cars and compare not only features and style, but quality and sophistication. The differences you feel only when you sit in and drive a 240 hp Accord and then a 210 hp Accord. EDIT: STEP 14????!!!!! :lol: :lol: Right, that's gonna make daddy's rich son pick a Pontiac over a BMW. Edited December 6, 2005 by turbo200

[evok]

I can't believe some of these steps are even part of the "Return to Greatness." What a ridicule you are making of yourself buickman, and showing how far you are inset in the Detroit, Michigan mindset. You don't understand problems of image and mentality. GM is the country's KMart or Payless, and no, this is not just for snobs. But for people who realistically go through and shop for thier cars and compare not only features and style, but quality and sophistication. The differences you feel only when you sit in and drive a 240 hp Accord and then a 210 hp Accord.
EDIT: STEP 14????!!!!! :lol:  :lol: Right, that's gonna make daddy's rich son pick a Pontiac over a BMW.

[post="53838"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Turbo200: Don't you see, unknown to me until recently, Toyota and Honda both saw the wisdom of Step 14 and made it there own. Have you not seen the recent jump in their sales. Their adoption of Step 14 is the reason. There is great vision and wisdom in Step 14. I must stand corrected.

[turbo200]

I thought it was all the GM retirees they were attracting with $50 bonueses :)

[turbo200]

For GM, making a car has never been that simple. It should be pretty simple. Start out with a solid chassis that doesn't feel disjointed, and can hurl itself about confidently. Engineer some good parts; steering, braking, etc. Add an engine that is powerful, smooth, and won't sound like it will be knock knock knocking on heaven's door in a few years. DON'T TYPIFY THE EXPERIENCE. MAKE THE CAR IT'S OWN EXPERIENCE. Don't go on a parts bins binge! Don't use that same engine that we've complained about it before. AND DON'T CHEAP OUT ON THE EXPERIENCE OF THE CAR. Make something I could be proud of to show off. Something that will make me feel that I GOT DOUBLE my money's worth. Refine the crap out of it. Don't just benchmark, predict how good the competition will get!!!!! Give me longevity, give me solidarity, give me indescribable quality......a feel that only comes from little details, like the thunk the car door makes, the sound the suspension is making as it absorbs road inperfections, the sounds the engine makes as it whirls away, the feel that everything is just right. Cars are more than just inanitmate objects, they are an experience. If you value and have passion for the experience, you don't end up with the malibu. Edited December 6, 2005 by turbo200

[turbo200]

See Buickman, here's the thing. The product has got to improve, it has to beat the competition, FOR ONCE!

Here are some examples of GM's latest, monumental failures. Why are they monumental? Because of what they could have been! We could have been seeing a great revival starting three years ago. We have been waiting for it here on C&G since 2000. Things could have improved on a more monumental scale. Instead, the Lacrosse, Malibu, Impala, G6, Lucerne all fail to chart a signifcant new course of direction for each brand. [enboldened for emphasis on this point, out of all my points, this is probably the most important, better products are needed to restore the image of these brands, and get them back on shopping lists.] In other words, more of the SAME. As much as things could appear to be different, when taken in the scope of the whole automobile world, these cars languish still, and are representative STILL of old GM garbage. Tossable stuff. It's no media bias that the Malibu is powered by only 210 horses, out of an unrefined, coarse-sounding engine when the competition increasingly is offering 240 hps out of incredibly refined and technologically advanced, and luxurious sounding engines. It's no media bias that that Malibu, despite some sound improvements to quality, still looks and feels FISHER PRICE cheesy, especially when you consider it's only been out two years, and the new Camry interior makes it look like it shouldn't even be of this decade.


Here's some nifty pics, good luck on your revelations!



perhaps the best picture i've seen of the malibu. yes the details are all pretty nice, but the basic design is bland, very bland.



OR





it's not the accord's fault it offers navigation and the malibu doesn't.


There's this





it's not the passat's fault VW makes such a finely crafted interior


OR

[don't tell me it doesn't qualify, MSRP says it does!]






Shall I go on?

Edited December 6, 2005 by turbo200

[turbo200]

.......

[post="53792"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

OC, Thanks for posting a thoughtful and thorough point-by point analysis. I wholeheartedly agree with all of what you said. It would be great to hear defense and counter arguments, as long as you can remain unbiased and willing to listen to good reason. There is no arguing that GM's cars are behind the competition, that's why Bob Lutz was brought in and is in the post he is in now, to make better cars. GM, and Lutz himself, have admitted their cars need improving. Remember the 4 point plan from Wagoner? Getting competitive was one of the four points.

[razoredge]

Damn that Lacrosse is HOT !

those VW seats look like the same seats they were making in 1980. Same old garbage. I hear VW has gotten quite a rep for reliability ? Oh well so long as they use that softly stained birdseye plaood......

that Honda looks like a piece of crap, I would no sooner consider that then I would a Chevy.........confused ?

As for NAV screens for weenies, is'nt GM trying something with the on star program, perhaps this is where they have spent that money. Dont get me wrong I think both are stupid and for weenies

the Lacrosse, G6, Lucerne all fail to chart a signifcant new course of direction for each brand

nothin but your opinion. Both Buicks go along ways to erase my distress with what they did to the LeSabre and Regals during the 90's and late 90's respectively. You just got a hang up because the base of the chassis has been around 10 years, oh well thats your problem. I bet if I wanted to take the time to crawl around some of your favorite rice burners I could find much the same for over 10 years. Then anything they have improved was done because their citizens are still living in the world we had thought we left behind 100 years ago. But no, now we must be tossed back to where we belong ? Cause according to you and every other GM hater here, GM has done nothing to improve anything since......when.....1959 ??????????

The G6 is by far more exciting than anything Pontiac has had in that segment in years. Actually ever in my eyes, the GA never did much for me. the G6 is one of the few Pontiacs I would considering driving. To bad so many dealers dont know how to sell them.

Im sorry so many of you hate GM's and find all their cars boring and simple, but why do you come here ? I cant figure you out for nothing, you dont drive GM, you wouldnt be caught dead in a GM, you dont work for GM, I dont get it ? Bought stock in GM at one time ? I just dont get it.

[Guest buickman]

I agree, the LaCrosse is a fine piece of equipment. The Lucerne is very nice also. Now if we only had effective and consistent marketing. A full size RWD sedan and a luxury coupe would really round out the division.

[Satty]

Here you go.....I actually saved this......you'll find each of Buickman's "steps" followed by MHOs of his "steps."  I may be no Evok, but at least this gives you something to ponder.....(sorry for the looooong post)

[post="53792"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thanks, I knew someone had a pretty good shredding of this thing..

[PsychoBueller]

GM has to: Continue to make product improvements, and market the FAB (feature, advantage, benefit) of their technology. People want to know they're making a wise investment, not just the cheapest deal. And for Pete's sakes: Make a 10 year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty standard on EVERY GM VEHICLE. No BS, this will drive people to try GM if they feel they won't have to worry about long-term durability. This is a no-brainer of GM's cars are as reliable as they say they are. Edited December 7, 2005 by PsychoBueller

[Satty]

How did that interview go? You've had months to prepare for it, though it wasn't really all your fault Buickman.

[turbo200]

I agree, the LaCrosse is a fine piece of equipment. The Lucerne is very nice also. Now if we only had effective and consistent marketing. A full size RWD sedan and a luxury coupe would really round out the division.

[post="54171"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Their's nothing fine about a car that looks as dowdy as the Lacrosse. Nobody but old-time Buick fans will consider it. That's fine if you already like Buick, but most people don't. Get it? They have lost sales catering to the same audience that prefers bland automobiles with a complete lack of refinement and luxury, and plastic bits that make Toyota look like Lexus. They have to figure out how to appeal to Lexus and Toyota and Acura owners. It is possible to steal marketshare from those companies still. Though there are many that won't consider GM based on reliability issues, there are many still that will consider GM because of good experiences and reliability. Marketing a car to me in a different way, won't make that car appeal to me if it doesn't already appeal to me. If they continue to try to impress you, buickman and razoredge, they will go out of business.

[Guest buickman]

Full size luxury coupe. Still waiting on Josh. I appreciate his interest and support. We talk about doing an interview and then he drops off the radar.

[Croc]

Full size luxury coupe.

Still waiting on Josh. I appreciate his interest and support. We talk about doing an interview and then he drops off the radar.

[post="54242"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Because he came to his senses and realized you were nothing but smoke, mirrors and an over-inflated ego.

Get the hint. The site does not care for your blather.

[turbo200]

Full size luxury coupe.

Still waiting on Josh. I appreciate his interest and support. We talk about doing an interview and then he drops off the radar.

[post="54242"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Is this your sales practice? Dodge and weave? You don't answer direct questions placed in opposition of your viewpoint. Yet you continue to argue your point of view without offering support. So if someone tells you the Accord is a better automobile after driving a Lacrosse, do you simply stare blankly and then revert back to the employee pricing deal you complain about everyday here?

[Guest buickman]

Let's let Josh speak for himself. Your personal attacks only reveal how shallow and petty you are. You might try some therapy to develop self worth.

[Croc]

Ah, yes...because you know me SO WELL. You really shouldn't be lecturing me on self-worth as I am not the one who keeps posting on a website where it has been made clear that the members are not interested in an interview or this "plan." Edited December 7, 2005 by Croc

[Guest buickman]

Plenty of support here bud.

[turbo200]

BUICKMAN: How do you think marketing will affect someone who already knows about the car and doesn't care about it already? How do plan on appealing to Lexus, BMW, MB, Audi, Mazda, Nissan, VW customers? How can marketing affect the appeal of an automobile? How will you get people to CONSIDER your car make, if they've already crossed it off the list?

[fbodfather]

Here you go.....I actually saved this......you'll find each of Buickman's "steps" followed by MHOs of his "steps."  I may be no Evok, but at least this gives you something to ponder.....(sorry for the looooong post)

This whole plan seems to be a Michigan-centric proposal that does next to nothing to really address the major challenges that GM faces….those challenges being over-capacity, excessive costs, lackluster product, and in many cases, a severly-ineffective dealer body.  Not much of this plan seems relevant in the “real world” outside of Michigan or the Midwest, nor does it address the challenge of selling, marketing, and promoting GM vehicles to conquest buyers.  GM’s problems are far larger than depicted in these twenty points.
A RETURN TO GREATNESS
Step One: When "The Return" is initially announced, we proclaim the
elimination of Destination Charges. If you want to pay freight, get a
foreign car. 

· First of all, GM needs revenue……and the destination charges are something that’s acceptable industry-wide.  There is no reason to get rid of these charges as long as they are in line with other manufacturer’s charges.  To do so will reduce one source of revenue for General Motors.

Step Two: Ten days after the original announcement we release the next step,
the elimination of mid-year price increases. 

· Customers neither care or probably realize that mid-year price increases actually take place.  GM needs to build value in their products and if you build products that people actually want to buy, then occasional mid-year price adjustments won’t be a factor in GM’s success.

Step Three: Announcement of simplified quarterly incentive changes. No more
pressure to buy now, hurry before it ends, only to be followed by another
program. 

· Simplified incentives are fine.  However, you will ALWAYS have the situation where someone buys a car and the next day the incentive changes.  This will happen whether the incentive is monthly OR quarterly.  The very NATURE of the retail automotive industry, in fact ANY sales-oriented industry, is that there will be pressure to “buy now” as companies attempt to meet or exceed monthly, quarterly, or yearly objectives.  Furthermore, customers will ALWAYS worry what the “deal” will be.  It is in our very nature to negotiate.  We do that on houses, and we do that on cars.  This is NOT a GM-only fact of life.  Furthermore, even if GM WERE to take this step and reduce the “urgency” of the sale, other auto competitors will NOT….and therefore, their existing sense of “urgency” will give them more powerful momentum.

Step Four: Destination Detroit is move number four. In this announcement we
explain our decision to bring all future award winning dealers and
salespeople to Detroit as their reward for a job well done. 

· If you are trying to motivate dealers and salespeople, I’m sorry….but a trip to Detroit is NOT going to do it.  Hometown pride is great and admirable but it’s a fact of life that Detroit is NOT a leisure or entertainment destination and trying to convince dealers and salespeople to work harder with “Detroit” as a reward will be fruitless at best.  I like the idea about a trip to the proving grounds, but in this case, a trip to the Phoenix Proving Grounds would be much more enticing with all the attractions, spas, resorts, and golfing of the Phoenix/Scottsdale area.  The expenses saved from executives NOT traveling for this meeting would be minimal and would not strongly impact GM’s bottom line.

Step Five: Home Deliveries. We announce an effort of working with our
dealers to bring the customer the vehicle of their choice, directly to their
place of employment, or residence. 

· With every “docs-out” or “home” delivery you do, you take profit opportunities AWAY from the dealership, primarily in the finance department.  Maybe home deliveries would be more popular in Michigan, where so many retail customers ARE GM employees….and for them, buying a car is not as big of a deal.  In fact, when most GM employees buy multiple cars in a year, and work in the industry, they don’t “need” to take delivery at the dealership.  This is most assuredly not the case in the rest of the country.  Additionally, customers STILL need to come TO the dealership to shop and negotiate.  And in many areas of the country, “spot” deliveries (where the customer takes the car home THAT day) are commonplace.  Having a customer wait for a home delivery only reduces profit potential at the dealership AND gives the customer additional time to “rethink” their decision and back out of the deal.  It happens.
Step Six: We announce a very simple and easy to understand incentive...Got
GM Get GM. It is a loyalty incentive that anyone can comprehend. If you
currently own or lease a GM vehicle, you receive $1,000. It is stackable and
compatible with any offering, transferable to family member at same address.
No goofy rebate if you own a non-GM car. Who thought of that one anyway? Why
reward disloyalty, or have to ask customers if they own a competitve
product? Let's only give something to those who already support us. 

· A GM loyalty incentive is a good idea.  However, you cannot stop offering incentives to owners of competing makes.  GM cannot survive on its current owners, employees, and retirees for the purchase of GM cars.  GM needs to gain market-share from owners of competing makes and one way to do that is to give them a reason to come into a GM dealership.  Unfortunately, at this time, the GM product is NOT enough of a reason to entice these consumers.  It may be someday, but not now.  Incentives are here to stay and as long as GM remains REASONABLE with their incentives and rebates, that’s not a bad thing. 

Step Seven: Annual Model Change. 

· Once again, if GM does this, they will be at a severe competitive disadvantage.  One of the reasons that vehicle introductions became staggered throughout the year, was to gain the “upper hand” against a competitor that was also bringing out a new and competing model.  Back 50 years ago, when competition was much less, the Big Three were a mainstay of the U.S. retail auto industry, and all manufacturers introduced new cars in the fall timeframe, this was a great idea.  The very nature of the industry now and the number of competitors makes this an unrealistic practice.  GM may decide to wait until the fall to introduce their new models, but their competitors surely will not.  The competition will be more successful in pulling consumers into their showrooms to sell them their newest products instead of consumers “waiting” until fall to see what GM has to offer.

Step Eight: Increase Dealer Margin.

· Realistically, any increase in margin will be followed by an increase in price.  NOW, if GM products get to a strong enough point of acceptance in the marketplace, this increase in price should not be a big issue.  They are NOT at this point of acceptance yet.  Asking GM to increase margins without a corresponding increase in price is asking GM to give up revenue they desperately need right now.

Step Nine: Get On The Street. Each month, each salary member of VSSM would
be required to spend one day in a randomly selected dealership service
department, preferably in write up.

· All GM employees, (and employees at any manufacturer for that matter) should spend time working in a dealership to get a true feel for the retail environment.  However, I don’t see this as being a big impact to the dealership’s productivity.  It’s a good idea, but not a big enough impact to probably be included as one of the points in GM’s “Return To Greatness.”


Step Ten: AARP. This is a fantastic demographic, and another opportunity to
simplify incentives. Make it a year-round program. 

· AARP is a good program, and a good targeted marketing incentive.  However, like above, the impact is likely to be way too small to add to GM’s “Return To Greatness.”  AARP, in the overall scheme of things, is a highly-targeted demographic and a correspondingly small proportion of the car-buying public.  This incentive would primarily be aimed at GM retirees or Buick consumers.  This incentive would do next-to-nothing towards helping convince shoppers at BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Toyota, or Lexus stores to come into a GM dealership.

Step Eleven: Brand Merchandise Offerings: Include with each delivery a
coupon for $50 off, or towards, merchandise from an affinity catalog. 

· Good idea.  You could target the brand merchandise offerings to match the individual GM divisional brand image.  HOWEVER, once again, the impact from this promotion would do little to correct GM’s market share slide.  GM’s problem today is WAY bigger than this.

Step Twelve: Auto Shows. Instead of the current practice of giving rebates
to certain residents of surrounding counties, let's offer auto show tickets
to those who test drive our products. 

· Auto shows cost, $9, $10, $11 to get in.  I don’t see this as making any impact.  Auto show tickets alone aren’t going to bring new consumers into a GM dealership.

Step Thirteen: At year end, instead of giving our employees a cash award for
profit sharing, reward them with stock, and make them true partners in the
company's success.

· A nice idea, however, this does nothing to help fix the “core” problem at GM….and that’s the competitiveness of their products and the perception of GM products in the marketplace by those consumers that GM NEEDS to attract from the Japanese and European car shoppers.

Step Fourteen: PEP Cars. Quite often, GM executives turn in their factory
demos with the mileage just under the next price discount level. This
practice is both frustrating and annoying. The inconsideration shown to
fellow employees, and retirees, is inexcusable and unacceptable. GM needs to
announce a policy of driving the unit to the next mileage category whenever
the driver is within say 250 miles of the next price break. 

· No impact from this point.  GM PEP cars are a phenomenon that only merits any importance from people living in Michigan (or surrounding states where people work at GM factories, etc.) where the majority of GM company cars are in service.  Furthermore, these PEP cars are usually sold to GM employees and retirees.  Complaining about losing out on an additional GM discount, when you are already getting a substantial discount on a PEP car is a needless and petty point to argue when it has nothing to do with GM gaining market-share in places like Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, and New York.

Step Fifteen: Referral Savings Account. Similar to the GM Card (another
crisis), GM announces a program to accumulate a savings of $50 for each
referral who buys or leases a new vehicle. 

· At $50 per referral, a consumer would never accumulate enough dollars to make the incentive strong enough to pull him/her into a GM dealership.  Once again, maybe GM employees in Michigan might utilize such a program but in the REST of the country, how many people do you really think would refer a significant number of people to buy a GM car, then to actually redeem those dollars at a GM dealership?  GM has to get people to CONSIDER their products for purchase FIRST before you can think about those consumers actually referring someone to buy a GM vehicle.

Step Sixteen: Free GM Smart Care Maintenance Agreement to all GM Retirees.
This 36 month 36,000 mile program would offer free recommended maintenance
to all GM retirees. 

· Simply MORE “legacy costs” at a time when GM most assuredly does NOT need them.  GM retirees are NOT going to save GM so there is little point in spending money in this way to further incentivize them.  They are most likely going to continue to buy GM vehicles ANYWAY due to the discounts they receive.  GM needs to spend money to improve product and increase market share….NOT foster goodwill with retirees.

Step Seventeen: GM Card. This was one of the best programs GM has ever had.
That was until someone decided to take earnings away, and thereby alienate
thousands of employee cardholders. 

· I cannot comment as I am unfamiliar with the GM Card and recent activity that has supposedly made it a less-than-desirable incentive.

Step Eighteen: Sales Guilds. For years GM had brand specific sales guilds.
Now, everything is combined into the GM Mark of Excellence. It's a decent
enough program, but it would be more effective to return to the old days of
Buick Salesmaster and the Chevrolet Legion of Leaders. 

· Unlikely to strongly impact GM’s falling market-share.  The salespeople need good, competitive product to sell.  That’s the first step.

Step Nineteen: Direct Factory Communication: Imagine going to your local
dealer and ordering a new vehicle. 

· What percentage of GM vehicle purchases are actually custom-ordered?  Not many.  Due to this fact, this point has very little impact on GM’s overall challenges.

Step Twenty: Reinstatement of Regional Sales Training Classes. Years ago, GM
offered professional sales development classes at their regional training
centers. 

· This point adds serious cost, which GM cannot afford right now.  Sales training is ALWAYS beneficial, but most manufacturers these days utilize various computer and internet tools to train salespeople.  Additionally, the dealership sales managers should be empowered to make sure their respective sales forces are properly trained.  That is one function that the individual GM district sales manager should be responsible for on a local level.  Regional sales training centers are an unnecessary expense.  If a salesperson is not disciplined enough to utilize the computer, internet, and print materials available to him/her, than they shouldn’t be in the business in the first place.

Please respond with your thoughts, and PROXIES.

I just did!

[post="53792"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Wow, OC.....your response was nearly identical to mine........except for "Home Deliveries" which is illegal in several states under current francise laws.

I do like two of the ideas......GM card and $50 certificate for branded merchandise. I don't know what you do for a living, but it's clear to me that you have an understanding of this business on a larger scale.

Buickman...you really need to go back and re-read this post...and take notes!

[fbodfather]

Perception is reality and GM doesn't have it. Red Tag = Red Ink.

[post="53631"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

very important to understand that this program came about at the call of the national dealer council. (so it's Wagoner's fault that he listened to dealers other than yourself???)

You may also notice that other manufacturers do a year-end clearance as well.

[regfootball]

Let's let Josh speak for himself. Your personal attacks only reveal how shallow and petty you are. You might try some therapy to develop self worth.

[post="54257"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

josh got his new solstice like today, i bet he's out putting mies aplenty on it.

[hyperv6]

I understand and thanks for posting Scott. I had a family member well placed in GM from the late 20's throught the early 60's and he was old school. But he gave me great insite to what has lead to where we are at today. The new thinking and quicker reation to meet and try to lead the market. This is what I saw lacking in my great uncles world. While most companys were working hard to make there place things got lax and we are seeing the price paid now by those who inherited it. I hope they keep with the new thinking and prevent those who want to take the easy way out and gut the company in way we never thought possiable. By the way the GM car saved my $1000 on my Comp G GTP. It was not a deciding factor for me as I am a GM buy. But that thousand dollars would or could have made a big differeance to a less than loyal customer. People today expect great sevice and low prices and loyalty is becoming a thing of the past. That would explain Hyundi wouldn't? Walmart has also built themselfs on this principal. The one who provides the lowest prices, best valued cars along great service will win here. I see GM making up ground in these areas. This will help change the preception of many. At times I wonder who in the Finacial world has a lot to gain to see GM fail. Even when things go right at GM someone always wants to try to point out it is not as good as it could have been? Wall Street has been overly harsh vs other companies. Enough rambling and again thanks for the post.

[fbodfather]

I understand and thanks for posting Scott.

I had a family member well placed in GM from the late 20's throught the early 60's and he was old school. But he gave me great insite to what has lead to where we are at today.

The new thinking and quicker reation to meet and try to lead the market. This is what I saw lacking in my great uncles world. While most companys were working hard to make there place things got lax and we are seeing the price paid now by those who inherited it.

I hope they keep with the new thinking and prevent those who want to take the easy way out and gut the company in way we never thought possiable.

By the way the GM car saved my $1000 on my Comp G GTP. It was not a deciding factor for me as I am a GM buy. But that thousand dollars would or could have made a big differeance to a less than loyal customer.

People today expect great sevice and low prices and loyalty is becoming a thing of the past. That would explain Hyundi wouldn't? Walmart has also built themselfs on this principal.

The one who provides the lowest prices, best valued cars along great service will win here. I see GM making up ground in these areas. This will help change the preception of many.

At times I wonder who in the Finacial world has a lot to gain to see GM fail. Even when things go right at GM someone always wants to try to point out it is not as good as it could have been? Wall Street has been overly harsh vs other companies.

Enough rambling and again thanks for the post.

[post="54346"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thank you, Hyper for your perspective.

You are right in your last paragraph.......ever notice those who have never run a company tend to think they have the answers?

[4gm]

Where's the step that says GM should start making attractive cars again? Cuz, really, that should be like steps 1-19.

[turbo200]

very important to understand that this program came about at the call of the national dealer council. (so it's Wagoner's fault that he listened to dealers other than yourself???)

You may also notice that other manufacturers do a year-end clearance as well.

[post="54331"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

that's interesting. I could definitely see the dealers asking for this, it hurts GM's bottomline a lot more than it hurts there's. And no, I don't blame Wagoner for listening to the dealers.

But, a quick question, if you'll do me the honor, why hasn't Wagoner, or someone at GM really pushed for realistic pricing levels. We all know the Lacrosse sells realistically at a point probably 3k under its MSRP. Couldn't we save a lot of time, and increase resale value, and the perceived value of our products by not always discounting, if we just went to value pricing. I don't mean the value pricing GM introduced this year, where GM spoke a lot about pricing cars near to their market value, and then didn't follow through. I mean real pricing levels. I always see the Malibu being advertised for 15k, and I see a lot of Camrys for around 18 or 17k. IMHO, 16 or 17k would be a better base price for the Malibu, than the 19k it's at currently. I don't know why any sane person would choose the Malibu, at similar pricing over the Camry, other than loyalty. The Malibu is a good car, but we all know it lacks the refinement to push it into an upscale arena, it's got a poor man's car image, whether that's true or not. So, fbodfather, why can't Wagoner push for real pricing levels. That's one aspect of marketing I think is failing, pricing.

[balthazar]

Where's the step that says GM should start making attractive cars again?

I thought this was a serious discussion; bullsh!t like this contributes nothing.

[Guest buickman]

Without question GM needs to have product that represents excellent value, contains industry leading quality, and has superior styling. Return to Greatness is simply a program to rationally turn public opinion in favor of the company and it's brands by providing a sense of leadership and geniune concern for the customers and dealers. Every dealer I speak with feels Red Tag is a disaster. Forcing retailers to fixed pricing is detrimental to their operations and they resent interference in their ability to operate profitably. As to customers dead set against GM, there isn't much that can be done in the short term. We need to focus our efforts on retention and acquisition of business that we have the potential of earning. Please realize the first twenty steps are just that, a beginning. The Plan contains further ideas and steps but until we begin the program, there isn't any sense delving into the next areas of action. I truly appreciate the constructive criticism offered, and many valid issues have been raised. However, I stand firm in my belief that these initial maneuvers will be fundamental in the process of remaking GM's Mark of Excellence.

[razoredge]

Because he came to his senses and realized you were nothing but smoke, mirrors and an over-inflated ego.

Get the hint.  The site does not care for your blather.

[post="54245"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

speak for yourself.......only.......everything else out of you have never been much more than "over-inflated ego".........want references ?

This is a GM site, you hate GM's, yet you are here, and you want to speak for everyone on the site ?

In many conversations regarding automobiles you have made it very clear that you have very limited taste. In order for a company to make something you would approve of it would need to be exactly like another car you have already approved of, but thing is, then you would go off on how it was a copy cat and late to the party.

You spent 4 days reviewing Mercury for a school project and now Mercury is all that, however prior you showed no interest in FMC. This in itself almost proves some of Buickmans ideas about marketing would be effective. Not to you of course, you have made your decision about GM products and I know for a fact that you are the kind of person that will use that hatred to the bitter end regardless of what "product" GM puts to market.

So once again get over yourself and try to be more productive in your posts and less degrading of those with opposed views. If you have nothing to offer but insults maybe you should skip the topic ??????????? Cause one thing for sure is not everybody here agrees with you either !

[saturnd00d]

Marketing may be an issue over at GM, but the biggest concern for GM should be it's product refinement and quality. Referring to improving GM's marketing, you just can't polish a turd. The only way to change a company's image is to simply make better and more refined products. Products that people want. Products that actually are as comparable as others in their respective classes. I am one of the small percentile of customers that likes to buy what I like (heck, I bought an ION which I know many people don't like, but I do for my own reasons). Truth is, these days, you can do all you want to "persuade" consumers why your products are better, but once certain media publish their cut-throat reviews, all image that you worked so hard to obtain is now lost because the product isn't what it appears to be. GM, go back to what makes a good product. You have the technology, you have the experience, you have the money. Use it. Better to go out with all guns a'blazin rather than play it safe and fade out in less than a decade only to have the world laughing at you. Invest in quality, and invest in your concept-to-production turnaround time (basically cut it shorter) and get some damn good vehicles out now. You definitely need it.

[razoredge]

Their's nothing fine about a car that looks as dowdy as the Lacrosse. Nobody but old-time Buick fans will consider it. That's fine if you already like Buick, but most people don't. Get it? They have lost sales catering to the same audience that prefers bland automobiles with a complete lack of refinement and luxury, and plastic bits that make Toyota look like Lexus. They have to figure out how to appeal to Lexus and Toyota and Acura owners. It is possible to steal marketshare from those companies still. Though there are many that won't consider GM based on reliability issues, there are many still that will consider GM because of good experiences and reliability. Marketing a car to me in a different way, won't make that car appeal to me if it doesn't already appeal to me. If they continue to try to impress you, buickman and razoredge, they will go out of business.

[post="54238"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Dude ? Dont you live in California ? Hardly the place to draw an overview of Americans likes and dislikes. Here on the east coast no one has this so called dislike of Buicks........Get it !

"Dowdy", lets examine this for a moment.......Camry, Avalon, Civic, Accord, Nissans, Mitsubitchi = dowdy

I do not prefer bland automobiles, if I did I would have purchased one of those pathatic imports I glanced at in during any of my used car shopping periods. This is why I have continously asked just what it was your favorite Japanese brands had over all the years that gives you the right to say GM's have been inferior ? Ive look at those things, they are garbage with bits and pieces broken or not working, cheap junk, most made me regret the time spent on a quick glance.

then for your reliability BS, that is what it is, BS. the only vehical I ever put a tranny in was a Toyota. The only vehical I ever had to switch a motor on was a Toyota. It was the infamous 22R and the highly acclaimed Toyota 4X4. It was a great truck, I loved it and worked it hard, got my moneys worht out of it but it doesnt change the fact that I put more work into that truck per mile than any other I have owned. So your reliability BS is just that, BS, they all break and some people are great at breakin them. I have worked with men that can break Mac trucks like they were tonka toys.

then if GM was making cars the way I like them they would be out of business because this guy has no interest in Camry, Accord, Galant, Chevys, saturins or any of the other bland point A to point B vehicals.

So hows abouts not letting your personal taste take priority to my personal taste, its highly doubtfull I would be caught dead in something you would drive and visa versa.

You are not the ends all god of the automobile, sorry to have to be the one to point that out to you. You really should go work for the Japanese, you alone could convince all but maybe 5% of the American buying public not to even look at an American built car. But fear not, this will happen soon enough, because GM can not sustain and we will have no choice but to drive Asain built cars. That will be great for you because then you can say, you were right and never be disproved. So see you are set up for success.

Once again could you tell us why you are here ?

[balthazar]

speak for yourself.......

Sound advice, Razor, agree 100%.

Myself; I don't give a rat's ass about perceived egos or personal differences- as a true General Motors supporter I want to see results. Very little behind the scenes action from HQ has impressed me in recent years, among some colossal blunders (fiat, suzuki, saab). Frankly I think the think tank is fresh out of 'momentum' ideas, and I welcome level-headed discussion about any new proposals that would turn that around. Proffered with the contention that marketing costs will simultaneously be reduced and you have a listener here.

Many of the counterpoints above 'disprove' the steps as individually "not saving the bottom line" at the same time acknowledging they still may be a net positive. How is that "shredding" anything?

Bottom line: no one has ever unilaterally praised GM's marketing (quite the contrary), yet a 20+ step proposal is unilaterally damned without being tried. I should say: 'hasn't been tried nationally', because it has been successful regionally.

The bulk of the counterview seems clearly to be personal, and there's really no time for that for GM today. 'We' need all the help we can get.

[evok]

Sound advice, Razor, agree 100%.

Myself; I don't give a rat's ass about perceived egos or personal differences- as a true General Motors supporter I want to see results. Very little behind the scenes action from HQ has impressed me in recent years, among some colossal blunders (fiat, suzuki, saab). Frankly I think the think tank is fresh out of 'momentum' ideas, and I welcome level-headed discussion about any new proposals that would turn that around. Proffered with the contention that marketing costs will simultaneously be reduced and you have a listener here.

Many of the counterpoints above 'disprove' the steps as individually "not saving the bottom line" at the same time acknowledging they still may be a net positive. How is that "shredding" anything?

Bottom line: no one has ever unilaterally praised GM's marketing (quite the contrary), yet a 20+ step proposal is unilaterally damned without being tried. I should say: 'hasn't been tried nationally', because it has been successful regionally.

The bulk of the counterview seems clearly to be personal, and there's really no time for that for GM today. 'We' need all the help we can get.

[post="54448"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My advice buy GM stock and forget what the knuckle heads in the press or other misinformed opinions write on the board.

[balthazar]

Marketing may be an issue over at GM, but the biggest concern for GM should be it's product refinement and quality.

In other words- you have seen no evidence that GM has refined product & improved quality and is focused on that whatsoever.

Not targeting you, TurboRush, but look how well this edit fits:
>>"Their's nothing fine about a car that looks as dowdy as the 9-3. Nobody but old-time saab fans will consider it. That's fine if you already like saab, but most people don't. Get it? They have lost sales catering to the same audience that prefers 1980 automobiles with a complete lack of refinement and luxury, and plastic bits that make Toyota look like Lexus."<<

You likely won't agree, but understand that I don't agree either with your assessment of Buick.

[91z4me]

My advice buy GM stock and forget what the knuckle heads in the press or other misinformed opinions write on the board.

[post="54451"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So your saying that since GM is majorly undervalued at the moment it is a good buy because sooner or later people will say "Why the crap is it that low? Lets buy a bunch for cheap." Basically what Kerkorian is doing.

[Guest buickman]

Thank you gentlemen for the open reception to new ideas. We are in agreement as to the right to express opnions without insulting reprisals. It is good to hear responses that see the common sense in trying less expensive marketing that has been proven effective. We all need to keep in mind that the goal here is the development of thoughts beneficial to GM as well as the exchange of personal experience.