Return to Greatness

[saturnd00d]

In other words- you have seen no evidence that GM has refined product & improved quality and is focused on that whatsoever.

GM's refinement and quality are definitely better than before, but not good enough. Lacrosse? Not good enough. CTS? Hardly. Cobalt? Nope. These cars while different in their respective markets and target audiences, were supposed to be all the rage in the comeback for GM. Each of them fall short in terms of refinement. Don't get me wrong, I like each of them, but compared to their rivals, we all know GM could have done better.

CTS for example, is a fine automobile (one that I can't afford either), but for the price of it, I'd expect a better and more refined interior. Hell, it's a cadillac, it shouldn't fall short on anything. At least, thats what cadillac's image portrays.

I think GM is heading in the right direction with finally taking the plunge and working on their refinement and quality. Thing is, they need to step up and address these issues FASTER. They shouldn't reserve the next 10 years to debut their refined offerings a few at a time, instead, each of their products should be getting the step-ups in quality, even if its to add some refined small touches to hold out the consumers til the refreshes come in.

Fine example that I'm sure everyone can agree with. The ION. Ok, GM isn't going to replace the ION til 07 or so. Fine, the plan is to keep it plastic til then. UNTIL THEN, why not offer a refreshed interior consisting of a new dash, some revised door skins (possibly ala cobalt and pursuit), and some sort of special edition options not normally found in the previous IONs? This would at least get some extra sales out of the model until an all-new car comes out. They've made ALOT of engineering differences in the later model IONs (and trust me it was for the better), but the biggest problem area I think everyone has with the car, is the interior. Address that in small ways to hold off the press and hold onto the masses looking into buying a small car.

[evok]

Thank you gentlemen for the open reception to new ideas. It is good to hear responses that see the common sense in trying less expensive marketing that has been proven effective.

[post="54458"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

New ideas. You have been shown countless times from many of us from inside the industry that your ideas are not new and won't work and are easily copied by other manufacturers. The O.C. bullet comments show that in this thread as did mine and others 6 months ago. What makes The O.C. comments even more robust is that he has stated numerious times he spent years in the VSSM org.

The most interesting thing in your statement is "proven effective." Show us the data instead of opinion.

[saturnd00d]

Buikman, I'm sure you can understand that I'm no GM insider, I'm not even in the automotive field whatsoever, and their business practices are way over my head. With that said, I see things from not a business perspective, but rather, a consumer perspective. When I see a flashy car ad, or one that makes me sing the praises of a certain auto manufacturer, it does get me thinking "hey I'll keep this car in my thoughts when I'm in the market for one". As soon as one of the mags or tv reviews focus on that car, I tend to gander at the review out of curiosity. I feel I share this trait with many consumers today. Where I differ from that of a majority of consumers, is the curiosity to take the car out for a drive personally to see if "I" like it. Alot of people tend to look into reviews and publications to see the opinions of auto journalists. Many consumers trust these journalists because they don't know what exactly to look for, so therefore they think of these journalists as "experts". When the "experts" label a car as something like "still not first in class", or "not as good fuel economy as Toyota X or Honda Y", "not as refined as VW something-or-other", etc., people sometimes draw their conclusions from that. Some may not even make it to the dealership at that point thinking it would be a waste of time. Something that can only make sense in the short term, is to have GM focus 135% on quality and surpassing the standards. Why make something equal to something else? Now you have a 50-50% chance of selling the car, based on if the consumer likes yours rather than the other. Make a product that no one can pass up. It's hard to stand out these days, but try to find distinction, try to show your product through...your product, as opposed to advertising designed to exploit the product's good qualities and hide the bad ones. Again, you simply cannot polish a turd. Harsh? Yes. True? Yes. Edited December 7, 2005 by saturnd00d

[razoredge]

My advice buy GM stock and forget what the knuckle heads in the press or other misinformed opinions write on the board.

[post="54451"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well I'll try to be optimistic and hope you are correct but I cant see it. Either you are implying that GM's will be built in China, Korea, S Am. OR N.Americans are going to start working for $8 per/no benefits, or somehow through all this talk about labor choking off the R&D funding GM is about to release products that are going to make the whinners stop whinning.

Its interesting to me, how, after participating in many posts of this sort that after awhile everything seems to contradict itself.

Incidently - amounst other things GM needs to adjust its sales department :)

[Guest buickman]

Sales department? those are very kind words. In truth these individuals are the most worthless, ineffective, corrupt individuals in the auto industry.

[91z4me]

Sales department? those are very kind words. In truth these individuals are the most worthless, ineffective, corrupt individuals in the auto industry.

[post="54557"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So basicallly you just insulted all dealers then right?

[Croc]

This is a GM site, you hate GM's, yet you are here, and you want to speak for everyone on the site ?

[post="54426"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:lol: Yes...of course...I hate...GMs? :lol:

[Croc]

So basicallly you just insulted all dealers then right?

[post="54567"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Basically. Remember, only Buickman has all the answers. In his own little world, he is some kind of oracle.

[Guest buickman]

You're ridiculous.

[Croc]

So is your "Plan."

[Guest buickman]

Then why did I lead the Us 6 times working form the north end of Flint with high crime, boarded buildings, weeded lots and closing factories with 6 competing dealers? How did I manage Patsy Lou to #1 in US? How did I increase Suski 52% last year? Edited December 7, 2005 by buickman

[Flybrian]

If you guys want to delve into a personal tet-a-tet over your jobs, your lives, your mothers, do it through PM/e-mail/or fisticuffs. Back to the point...

[Guest buickman]

Good idea, thanks. Jerry York to join GM board. This is a positive in my opinion as we now may see some accountability and concern for shareholder value. Edited December 7, 2005 by buickman

[turbo200]

Aren't you at all concerned Kerkorian wants to rip apart GM and sell it for the profitable units?

[Croc]

Then why did I lead the Us 6 times working form the north end of Flint with high crime, boarded buildings, weeded lots and closing factories with 6 competing dealers? How did I manage Patsy Lou to #1 in US? How did I increase Suski 52% last year?

[post="54636"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You might be a fine salesman, but your plan does not address the fundamental problems within GM. They are a marketing-based approach, which would be fine if merketing were the main problem. It isn't. GM does not build competitive vehicles: THAT is the problem.

[turbo200]

buickman may be a fine salesman, but if he'd try his luck in Los Angeles, where dealers are bleeding and NOBODY will consider the product, I think he'd find just how bad the situation is. There are something like 32 million people in the Los Angeles area alone, and there are many more cities throughout the country that are just as bad for GM.

[balthazar]

You might be a fine salesman, but your plan does not address the fundamental problems within GM.  They are a marketing-based approach...

Why is this so difficult to understand??? These steps are designed to address marketing, yet the primary complaint is basically 'But this only addresses marketing'.

...which would be fine if merketing were the main problem.  It isn't.

But, as you imply, it IS a problem. Why the outright refusal to fix that?

[razoredge]

Thats what I was thinking. Buickman should be placed in other areas throught the US to see if this can work elsewhere other than Michigan. By "sales department" I meant the dealership as well as advertising, in other words the whole scope of selling a product or marketing. There has been more than one instance here of Gm loosing a sale because of the dealership. Theres also the huge problem of perception, it has been mentioned over and over by many posters on this board. So now lets give in to turbo and croc and say yep everything GM has is junk. There is nothing new comming for a year or two and as we all know turbo and croc will hate that stuff as well. But forget that, in the mean time what do you do. Have the dealers take a year off and wait for the next round of junk ? Put everything up for sale, pack the rich pricks wallets and put a paragraph in the history books about how at one time the US was a manufactureing giant that went all to hell because turbo and croc didnt like the products ? No You figure out how to market and promote the product you have on the market at this time. After all there is no better time to start. All of GMs recent products have recieved favorable reviews, reviews that were nit picked and had some little weenie reporters explaining that they still werent Japanese but none the less the reviews have been favorable. So now how are you going to sell this stuff. They failed to sell it for Olds. saturin has a car commin out that has everyone up in arms but yet 5 years earlier Olds had an equally impressive car that they could not sell. So something is telling me theres problems in the marketing department - also.

[turbo200]

But, as you imply, it IS a problem. Why the outright refusal to fix that?

[post="54707"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The plan is called "Return to Greatness". There will be no return to any glory GM held by catering to AARP and PEP consumers. That's just ridiculous.

GM's marketing hasn't been organized or fundamentally appealing for a long time, but that's not what has called the long gradual slide from dominance, you know better.

[Croc]

Why is this so difficult to understand??? These steps are designed to address marketing, yet the primary complaint is basically 'But this only addresses marketing'.

He is passing this off as the end-all-be-all for GM. Here is Marketing 101 in a nutshell: Marketing can sell products, but only for a short time if the product falls short. Then you just have a lot of customers who are turned off and will never reconsider. The problem that MUST be addressed first is the lack of compelling product. Why is this so hard to understand?

But, as you imply, it IS a problem. Why the outright refusal to fix that?

[post="54707"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It isn't a refusal to fix the marketing problem, it is a simple issue of priorities. Frankly, I think it makes the most sense to market the hell out of GM and maybe implement a few of these points AFTER GM has compelling products and actually a chance in hell of getting some lifelong conquest buyers. As it is now, implementation would likely lead to a short uptick in sales in the short term, and more turned-off customers in the long-terms.

EDIT: I also agree with Turbo200 Edited December 7, 2005 by Croc

[turbo200]

You figure out how to market and promote the product you have on the market at this time. After all there is no better time to start. All of GMs recent products have recieved favorable reviews, reviews that were nit picked and had some little weenie reporters explaining that they still werent Japanese but none the less the reviews have been favorable. So now how are you going to sell this stuff. They failed to sell it for Olds. saturin has a car commin out that has everyone up in arms but yet 5 years earlier Olds had an equally impressive car that they could not sell. So something is telling me theres problems in the marketing department - also.

[post="54708"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The problem and reason GM's share is in a decline is too many people have recognized GM's cars are not up to the standards out there. An even bigger problem are the people who beleive GM will NEVER be able to build a car up to the standards of the competition.

Listen to me instead of drowning me out. I am fairly confident in the new line of cars GM has coming out next year. Between the Aura, 900's, Lambdas, and any other surprises GM has in store for us, it will be a banner year and will hopefully be the year GM gets back in black, so that we on this site won't have to subjected to all the gloom and doom YOU keep talking about. Seriously, drop the bankruptcy talk, it's more annoying then anything being called a GM hater from some guy who keeps talking about closing shop.

The problem will be attracting those people who have the perception GM just won't ever catch up. How do you get those customers? The answer: great design to pull them in, and consistent competition-beating quality and sophistication to keep them.

[Croc]

Bingo.

[razoredge]

With the new product, what is going to turn off the customer long term ?

Buickman has said more than once now that this is not the only problem or the only answer but this will address an imeadiate problem and get some funds for R&D.

"Why is this so hard to understand?"

turbo - As I have said many times no matter what GM does people such as yourself will not approve, you will turn each and every dealership apart to find a car that has a just slightly better volumn control knob and that will be the end of it for GM, they will be cheap junk. Just your harping on the "must be better than anything else on the market".....proves it.

" consistent competition-beating quality and sophistication" holy smokes, they need to beat every car made in every department to please you......proof......it cant be done.

Every GM must win the 1/4 mile race
Every GM must have 7.459 more hp than any other car
Every GM must have the exact interior necessary to not make you whiners whine, just how ITF is that even possible, oh thats right its eazy, just copy that Accord interior
Every GM must be capable of achieving the highest lateral G's on the skid pad
Every GM must be able to beat all the competition in transitional handling
Every GM must have fastest 0-60
Every GM must have best gas milage by at least 5 mpg or it wont count
Every GM must have the exact styling that all you Rice and Kraut lovers like.....how in the hell is that even possible.....must be they have to combine all the best attributes of the Accord with the "3 series", but then what will you say?

Aint gonna happen

but

Then, then if they accomplish this, you will tear apart every car on the market until you find that perfect volumn control knob and this crap will start all over again.

"GM's volumn control knobs dont feel right on the end of my fingers" "Now look at this Camry, this is a proper volumn control knob"

As for my "gloom and doom". Do you see America ? Have you seen America ? Have you witnessed America for the last 4 decades ? If nothing else has survived this "new world economy" and no one is willing to control this "new world economy" within our country why in the hell do you think I would not expect GM, Ford and any other remaining product producing operation to go the way of the rest ?

If you dont like being called a GM hater you could stop acting like one. I do after all drive nothing but GM's and am not having all these problems and issues that you are or that you claim exist or have existed, being how my cars are older. I should be explaining to them that they are junk but I rather prefer to pat them on the dash and smile.

86 Buick LeSabre Limited 2dr. - 150,000 miles driven dayly for 4 years/80,000 miles, restored, a strange but wonderful collector car for me, not anyone else, for me!
90 Regency FE3 conversion 328,000 miles drivin dayly, lookin good
90 Ciera Cruiser - 19?,000 miles drivin dayly, could use some paint
97 Oldsmobile LSS/L67 - 110,000 miles now with having the older cars the LSS is only used for special trips or drives but it was drivin dayly for 3 years or 50,000 miles

So once again Im not seeing it. I know you would like to get me in a Honda but I will continue to resist.

[turbo200]

you're thick

[Guest buickman]

" Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee" "Where's the Beef" "Breakfast of Champions" all worked for coffee cake, hamburgers, and cereal, commodities hardly different from the competition. The difference is they had image and meaning. I believe GM products are competitive within their respective segments, but the public sees the vehicles as inferior and undesirable. That is due to distress merchandising which GM does lavishly and foolishly. Return to Greatness would have the company quickly on the mend and begin the upward sales curve. With the momentum generated, the new products would be warmly received and profitability would be the order of the day. Under the direction of Lovejoy, Smith, and LaNeve all we've seen is utter failure and lost share, followed by excuses and spin. Instead of trying something new, we get more of the same Red Tag garbage and forced pricing with meaningless commercials and overpaid spokesmen. If you owned a company which had fallen on harsh times and your top salesman came to you with a plan to increase sales for no cost and actually lower expenses, how long would you need to think about things? Unless of course you had another agenda...

[turbo200]

"Return to Greatness would have the company quickly on the mend and begin the upward sales curve. With the momentum generated, the new products would be warmly received and profitability would be the order of the day.

[post="54756"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You've yet to prove this with statistical data except for sales you had at a Buick dealership in Michigan. That speaks for itself.

If you owned a company which had fallen on harsh times and your top salesman came to you with a plan to increase sales for no cost and actually lower expenses, how long would you need to think about things? Unless of course you had another agenda...

Are you really the top salesman accross the country? What about sales adjusted per region? Are thier salesman who have higher shares of sales in thier regions compared to your region?

[turbo200]

blah blah blah

[post="54750"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

do a search for my posts, you won't find me complaing anywhere about a volume knob, and.......you're thick

[Guest buickman]

My last year as a full time saleman I personally delivered 970 retail units at Williamson Buick GMC on Corunna Rd in Fliny Township. In fact I outsold most dealerships in the USA. This was my 6th national crown and I have the letters from GM to prove it. Since that time I formed a Real Estate company, been General Manager of two stores and done consulting work for a number of franchises. I used to work 60-70 hours per week but as the father of seven, I chose to diversify and enable myself to work from home so as to spend more time with the family. As I write this the kids are getting ready for bed. Years ago I'd have still been at the store. In addition to running Suski Chevy Buick I am this year ranked #8 in national Buick sales. The time spent in pursuit of improving GM has come at a personal sacrifice, but it is my passion and commitment.

[Guest buickman]

My last year as a full time salesman (1996) I personally delivered 970 retail units at Williamson Buick GMC on Corunna Rd in Flint Township. In fact I outsold most dealerships in the USA. This was my 6th national crown and I have the letters from GM to prove it. Since that time I formed a Real Estate company, been General Manager of two stores and done consulting work for a number of franchises. I used to work 60-70 hours per week but as the father of seven, I chose to diversify and enable myself to work from home so as to spend more time with the family. As I write this the kids are getting ready for bed. Years ago I'd have still been at the store.
In addition to running Suski Chevy Buick I am this year ranked #8 in national Buick sales. The time spent in pursuit of improving GM has come at a personal sacrifice, but it is my passion and commitment.

[post="54764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[turbo200]

My last year as a full time saleman I personally delivered 970 retail units at Williamson Buick GMC on Corunna Rd in Fliny Township. In fact I outsold most dealerships in the USA. This was my 6th national crown and I have the letters from GM to prove it. Since that time I formed a Real Estate company, been General Manager of two stores and done consulting work for a number of franchises. I used to work 60-70 hours per week but as the father of seven, I chose to diversify and enable myself to work from home so as to spend more time with the family. As I write this the kids are getting ready for bed. Years ago I'd have still been at the store.
In addition to running Suski Chevy Buick I am this year ranked #8 in national Buick sales. The time spent in pursuit of improving GM has come at a personal sacrifice, but it is my passion and commitment.

[post="54764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yuor passion is appreciated. If you are so passionate then you are willing to look into the truth of the matter. GM's sales are the worst outside of your area. How about look at selling rates according to the areas they are in. As I've stated already numerous times, NY and LA would be among the toughest areas to sell. I would like to know what dealers' attitudes there are like. I know I visit the Chevrolet dealer pretty frequently and they always come off as Reebok salesman to me. Don't know anything about the product, except for useful features which they are obviously trained to know. Don't really have any Chevy pride, just looking to make a good buck. They are always upfront about the discounts. Must be tough when your selling point is how cheap everything is.

[razoredge]

do a search for my posts, you won't find me complaing anywhere about a volume knob, and.......you're thick

[post="54761"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

well if GM were to get so refined as you wish, if you needed to, you would resort to comparing volumn control knobs. Your callin me thick, that was an sarcastic example of the nit picking.

Im thinking I might not be a thick as you, Ill work on it.

[Guest buickman]

We are in agreement. I grew up as the son of a GM dealer of 14 years in upstate NY. My brother manages a store there. One of my clients is in Eastern PA. I regularly communicate with dealers from around the nation. With these contacts I am able to gain an understanding and appreciation for how things are from Hawaii to Long Island. Most are completely frustrated by the goofy, ever changing, confusing programs from GM. There is so much time required sorting out and figuring out what programs are compatable and stackable, it drives people nuts! There are companies which dealers subscribe to in order to understand the incentives. Funny as it may seem, some GM reps pay for the service as they can't even figure it out. Instead of all this nonsense, we should have simple, easy deals and allow retailers the time to study the product instead. It's true as you say that salesmen are well below expectations in their professionalism, drives me crazy when I mystery shop for fun. I've often said my success wasn't just due to my skills, it's because the competition is so weak. Return to Greatness addresses these concerns. Although GM cannot force the dealers to change, there are ways of coersion and rationalization which would, I believe, convince these operators to instill a degree of service which would cause them and GM to rise within the industry.

[turbo200]

I'm quite content with the volume control knobs found in the impala, lucerne, cadillac dts, solstice, and I will be very happy with those found in the esclade, tahoe, and yukon. If there is something GM has blatantly compromised on, cost-cutting has taken effect, you can be damn sure I'll comment on it. The day GM produces a vehicle that stuns people is the day they start regaining their popularity.

[Guest buickman]

When GM has vehicles that stun they'll no longer need salesmen. Until that happens, we better hope retailers comprehend "A smile and a shoeshine".

[turbo200]

We are in agreement that dealers need to change. Perhaps this is more at the level you could be working at to make an impact within GM? Edited December 8, 2005 by turbo200

[caddycruiser]

When GM has vehicles that stun they'll no longer need salesmen. Until that happens, we better hope retailers comprehend "A smile and a shoeshine".

[post="54781"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not to sound a little off hear, but something struck me with this post.

Remember Saturn, back in the early 90's, when they were doing really well? The cars were (and somewhat still are) absolute garbage, but people were so refreshed and happy to finally have a car brand with a dealer network that made them feel comfortable and happy when buying a car for once, that they overlooked things like the rattle can build quality and engines louder than a lawn mower.

Now that most GM vehicles have advanced so far past those horrid times for cars, but are still "ho-hum" in most ways, it's a combination of perfectly nice "okay" cars matched with a buying experience that's like going to a big mall, run by 16 and 17 year olds. Clearance price stickers everywhere, can't find what you want, can't find a salesperson that knows much more than how to chew gum, etc.

I'm not saying it's the best practice in the world to sell hum-merchandise strongly based only on a terrific buying experience, but if it works, it works. A similar idea in the "Return to Greatness" just *might* help GM get a little more momentum right now, even with several cars that are considerably below par.

Ahh well...take it or leave it...that's about as far as much as I can type with finals on my mind...

[97regalGS]

an interesting thread that seems to interest all of 5 people, and amuse another 2-3 more to respond. GM marketing sucks. not much argument about that. and really, they need to figure it out. establish what each brand represents, then market the heck out of it, without changing your mind every 9-12 months. the problem with buickman's RTG(return to greatness) is: - the title is all wrong. these 20 points are not the return to greatness, but rather 'a marketing plan worth considering' - the insiders fbod, evok and O.C. all seem to think the ideas have been tried and will not work - Buickman's approach to get himself heard. which goes something like this. ' wagoners a bum, the board of directors are buffoons, the sales guys are crooks, and the senior marketing team are fools. but i sell lots of cars at my dealership so listen to me. If you have the ear of all those other dealers in the country then maybe you should form some sort of dealership advisory board and come up with a somewhat less antagonistic approach to dealing with GM and try something a little less inflamatory. btw, your passion and commitment are commendable. finally, as bad as GM marketing is, I think that quality cars with the 'gotta have it factor' will drive a lot more sales than most of the 20 ideas you have.

[turbo200]

:lol: I'm glad someone else came in to interject all good points regal

[Guest buickman]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. Please understand my call for Wagoner to resign began over the Fiat scandal. In addition, I had made an agreement with LaNeve over breakfast to implement Return to Greatness. The folowing week he went backwards. I am quite sure it was Wagoner who killed it. Funny how the current issue of GM Edge magazine has LaNeve announcinf his "Four Pillars"and Plan. The words are right out of Return. Lookat another example of the double speak: Jim, I am not sure if this would help legally? However, I have a direct statement (email) from Laneve saying that he would implement "Return to Greatness". email. From: [email protected] Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert Subject: Re: Return to Greatness Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:55:20 -0500 To: "matthew weis" <[email protected]> I plan on implementing it immediately. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: matthew weis [[email protected]] Sent: 11/19/2005 10:16 AM To: Mark LaNeve Subject: Return to Greatness Mark, Why not give Return to Greatness a chance? This is a well thought out plan that WILL work! Let's make this a TEAM effort!! As a TEAM we WILL all be winners!!!

[Croc]

paranoia :ph34r: Edited December 8, 2005 by Croc

[Guest buickman]

Remember a few years back when Roy Roberts attempted to open company stores and was prevented by dealer associations and state franchise laws? If there no longer is a Buick, Oldsmobile, or Pontiac, nothing could stop GM from owning distribution of new franchises. In addition, while undergoing the metamorphasis, weakened sales would allow for the elimination of unionized domestic production. Make them in Korea and China, sell them on the internet, and profit on the paper. Easy money, like mortgages. Lowered production costs, and fewer legacy responsibilities. This is the beancounter mentality and most probably the agenda of Wagoner and company. Hence they have no interest in anything, or anyone who might interfere with their ultimate objectives.

[balthazar]

I visit the Chevrolet dealer pretty frequently and they always come off as Reebok salesman to me. Don't know anything about the product, except for useful features which they are obviously trained to know. Don't really have any Chevy pride, just looking to make a good buck. They are always upfront about the discounts. Must be tough when your selling point is how cheap everything is.

How did the above experience make you feel about "Chevrolet"?
This is supporting testimonial that sales & marketing need to be overhauled. Like Razor posted; these are quickly implimented actions, rather than waiting thru the years-long cycle of new product development. And like caddycruiser posted on page 7, strong effective marketing & dealership experiences can bouy less-than-world-class product. In other words, Saturn is a successful national-level case study for implementing at least some of the Steps outlined.

I too must compliment Buickman's commitment to his cause. Way too many people sitting back with their arms folded, griping & whining, both inside & outside General Motors.

[97regalGS]

Remember a few years back when Roy Roberts attempted to open company stores and was prevented by dealer associations and state franchise laws? If there no longer is a Buick, Oldsmobile, or Pontiac, nothing could stop GM from owning distribution of new franchises. In addition, while undergoing the metamorphasis, weakened sales would allow for the elimination of unionized domestic production.
Make them in Korea and China, sell them on the internet, and profit on the paper. Easy money, like mortgages. Lowered production costs, and fewer legacy responsibilities. This is the beancounter mentality and most probably the agenda of Wagoner and company. Hence they have no interest in anything, or anyone who might interfere with their ultimate objectives.

[post="54830"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

almost borders on conspiracy theory. problem with it, is that a secret that big would take years to play out and people wouldn't keep quiet about it. they can't even keep a picture of a car secret.

i don't have enough background to comment on the fiat or subaru issues. suffice to say, $4B to fiat was not a good thing.

i think some of your rhetoric needs to be toned done. it is very volatile. if you want to be successful then you need to drum up some serious supporters both within gm and within the dealer community. i'm not sure what affect you spending all your time on chat rooms is having. most of the people here are kids, and vast majority are not in the auto industry. we just have an obscure love for the general, either what it was or what it could be, few for what it is. but even if we all supported you and i'm not sure what that'd get you.

[91z4me]

Remember a few years back when Roy Roberts attempted to open company stores and was prevented by dealer associations and state franchise laws? If there no longer is a Buick, Oldsmobile, or Pontiac, nothing could stop GM from owning distribution of new franchises. In addition, while undergoing the metamorphasis, weakened sales would allow for the elimination of unionized domestic production.
Make them in Korea and China, sell them on the internet, and profit on the paper. Easy money, like mortgages. Lowered production costs, and fewer legacy responsibilities. This is the beancounter mentality and most probably the agenda of Wagoner and company. Hence they have no interest in anything, or anyone who might interfere with their ultimate objectives.

[post="54830"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yeah that is GMs big plan. Sell no cars so they can close dealerships and ship production to Korea, which has such a great commercial infrastructure, and then import the cars back to the US. Way to go Sherlock you broke GMs big plan open with a sledge hammer! :rolleyes:

Seriously Jim you blame Rick for the ENTIRE Fiat Fiasco? Come on there were likely HUNDREDS of people involved in that deal. Teams of lawyers and tons of analysis done and you know GM as a company decided that at the time, with all the information at their disposal it was a good move to make. To blame one person, even if he was the point man, is rediculous. Also I think that there are other reasons and I am willing to listen to them to see WHY you have a personal vendetta against Mr. Wagner. I don't know him from you BUT I do see you quoting yourself and making up poems, seems a little odd for someone who thinks they are executive material.

The beancounter mentality has always been present at GM it is what happens when you get on top. You become conservative. GM has been a VERY conservative company since the 60s. The last BIG risk it took engineering wise was the 4-6-8 caddy V8 and before that the Corvair. That was a HUGE risk.

Develop an entirely new structure, unibody, rear engined air cooled flat 6, for originally 2 cars and later only 1. The Corvair lineup could have become a second VW, they had a truck, a wagon, a van, a coupe, a convertible, and a sedan, but instead they persued a person investigating the car and tarnished their rep, made Nader a hero. And then scrapped the line.

Now GM has had its LONG draw out approval process to make sure that flops don't make it to production. I think the Aztek showed that this doesn't catch everything and it showed the problem with design by committie.

The best thing GM can do RIGHT NOW is reduce its overhead by closing under utilized plants, reducing the healthcare to retirees and UAW members. Next it must address product. This has already begun the designers have been unleashed. Now instead of things being toned down to the point of melted wax we get the cars that the designers wanted. Solstice is the first. Look at the 1st drawings and the production car in the showrooms and BOOM you see what I mean. GM actually was aggressive and look what it got for it, a SURE fire hit. Also on projects partly through the approval process more money was spent on interiors and exterior details. The LaCrosse was to far for the overall designs to be touched so Lutz, who Wagner brought in BTW, threw money into materials and fitments on the interior, chassis tuning and got a DOHC engine into a Buick for the 1st time EVER! The Impala was next retune the interior and exterior. Use subtle style and finally stick that V8 under the W-body that has been engineered to go in since the late 1990s!

Lucerne and DTS probably the finest pure luxury large cars on the planet. I am not talking sports sedans, I am not talking ultra luxury cars I am talking about BIG Bold AMERICAN cars with comfortable rides, great power, and un-ending style. I wasn't a fan of the Lucerne till I saw a black and chrome one in traffic and let me tell you my opinion changed 100% on the spot, this comes from a 24 year old male who is a sports car NUT!

Now what has the press and other members of the auto world seen that we haven't? The 1st purely 100% Lutz influenced cars and trucks. 2008 CTS said to be perfect by many. 2008 Malibu is said to knock your socks off, that is right a Malibu! Enclave said to be pure beauty, I think you may have actually seen this.

Now while the designers have been busy making GM cars stylish again GM powertrain and others have been working on new things. 6 speed autos, DOD V8s and V6s, new OHC V8s, VERY powerful 4 cylinders, DI for the future, BAS mild hybrid system to cost less and be in more cars than Toyota can count. Lots of things comming.

So while you fume about something that 1 man was involved in and call for his public beheading he was busy bringing in the right people to get GM back on track and managable and MUCH more profitable. Yes people will loose their jobs and yes there will be hard times but in the end a much stronger, quicker, and healthier GM will emerge. And THAT is what is important.

[The O.C.]

Then why did I lead the Us 6 times working form the north end of Flint with high crime, boarded buildings, weeded lots and closing factories with 6 competing dealers? How did I manage Patsy Lou to #1 in US? How did I increase Suski 52% last year?

[post="54636"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Gee.....what was your ratio of sales to GM employees, suppliers, and retirees to people not associated with GM at all?

I bet it was about 85% to 15%. Hell, it could have been even HIGHER. It's a HELL of a lot easier to sell GM cars to GM-associated consumers in Flint and Detroit than it is just about anywhere else. You guys were almost nothing more than "order-takers."

And YES I know your market oh so well.....I lived in the Flint area for 5 years, (worked at BUICK headquarters nonetheless, Mr. "Buick"man) and also lived in Oakland County (still working in Flint) for another 2 years after that. 7 years total....lived in the area....worked for GM/Buick in the area....I know the area.

I'd so LOVE to see you come out to Orange County or L.A. and try to repeat your "performance" at a Buick dealership out here....

Or for that matter, go to New York, or Atlanta, or Dallas, or Phoenix, or Denver...

I have nothing PERSONAL against you, Jim.....really.....I don't even know you.....but in regards to this highly-charged topic, you have NO clue what the "real" world is all about. Many of us on this site DON'T live in the midwest and are more than willing to give you a clue.

[The O.C.]

But, as you imply, it IS a problem. Why the outright refusal to fix that?

[post="54707"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No.....these steps were originally presented as "The Plan" to "Return GM to Greatness" through 20 steps.

This wasn't a simple "marketing" plan.

[Flybrian]

My real world is Buick/Mercury world. Even I can sell Buicks here.

[Guest buickman]

For the way we started out, it is pleasant to find areas in which we agree. the Lucerne is a great vehicle and value. Like you, I didn't realize how nice at first either, not until I delivered my first order and really went through the car. I enjoy communicating here, you have a whole lot more class than the snobs at camaroz28. Josh makes me wonder sometimes, he is lousy at following up and returning messages, but you've got to like the guy. Don't however discount the notion of collusion and corruption at GM. I have numerous examples and it exists from the boardroom to Solidarity House. Anyway, here's one example of what I mean by corruption: Hi there: My name is Bill Hanline and I am a UAW member for some twenty-two years. I just recently heard of your Web site and you. I am interested in contacting you about a subject I have been researching for over ten years. It is the UAW joint funds. Trust me on this one there is no getting an accounting of those funds. I have tried begging pleading raising hell and even going to the Feds. Every effort I made has run into heavy resistance. The Constitutional Death of the UAW By William D. Hanline and friend During the recent rounds of negotiations between the UAW and General Motors Corporation over healthcare and legacy cost, the UAW, International Union officers committed a betrayal of trust of their members and betrayed their oath of office to uphold the UAW Constitution. This took place all for the sake of preserving their “Cooperation Partnership” with General Motors Corporation. This betrayal of trust and confidence encompasses both active and retired members. This action happened when the misleaders, with forethought and collusion, agreed to reopen the 2003 UAW-GM National Agreement. Consequentially, their act resulted in a contract that is morally and with out conscience, contrary to the stated purpose in the UAW Constitution. This newly proposed deal between the UAW and General Motors Corporation shows without question, beginning with the 2003 contract and ending with the 2005 negotiations, the extent the UAW and their cooperative partner GM will go to maximize the automaker’s competitive position. How their cooperative efforts to divide, whipsaw and pit the workers and retirees against one another (Young against the Old) for the sole purpose of transferring wealth from those who can least afford it, the retirees, to the Stakeholders of the company. As a matter of historical fact, Corporate Industrial Relation’s fundamental initiative, whether a work force is unionized or not, is to pit the young against the old, men against the women and races against each other. The distasteful reality of this labor management relationship between the UAW and GM fully manifest itself in this latest example of cooperation. The UAW-GM highlights recently rolled out to the active workers in GM for their vote, clearly demonstrates the main strategy of the “Cooperation Partners.” In the highlights, they unashamedly sent a message to the active workers voting that says, “there is no cost to the active worker.” While at the same time, they remained silent on the fact that real dollars will be taken (ROBBED) from the retirees who are helpless to defend themselves from this pillaging by being denied a right to vote on this matter. Though it sounds in this letter that the retirees have no VOICE, that is not absolutely true. The UAW has selected two political sycophants, outside any political process, to be the voice of the 380,000 GM retirees during the law suite the “Cooperation Partners” (the UAW and GM) filed. Furthermore, they kept the names of those two retirees out of the press until after the law suite was filed in Federal Court. This was supposedly done to protect all retirees but in reality, it was done to give General Motors Corporation Safe Harbor from future law suites. While at the same time binding the retirees to an illegal negotiation (read NLRA) as the UAW negotiated the new retirement package for retirees. That act can only be described as a cowardly act in itself. Finally yet importantly, it has to be said that the evil brilliance of the UAW and GM “Cooperation Partners” to divide and conquer now creates a two tier social structure among the retirees! By negotiating terms that say the retirees whose monthly pensions are less than 33 dollars a month for each year of service will not have to pay any of the premiums imposed in the new agreement is simply pitting retiree against retiree! This is evil genius, for the “Cooperation Partners” have pitted every one in the UAW against themselves, seniority members against new hires, skilled members against production, active workers against retirees and now retirees against retirees. So what is this really all about? We have a pretty good idea! We know General Motors needs cash. Therefore, GM’s “Cooperation Partner” (the UAW) pursuant a partnership contract with GM better known as the Articles of Incorporation of the “Center for Human Resources” Article II, makes the UAW obligated to help GM get cash so the company will remain competitive. Now the question becomes, where can GM get cash? The answer lies in a term and program little known by most people; it is the “VEBA” or Voluntary Employees’ Beneficiary Association. VEBAs are IRS, CODE 501© None Profit trusts that are designed to allow corporations to invest money in for the purpose of providing benefits to their employees. The money for various benefits plans is raised by the tax exempt interest earned from different investments (Stocks Bonds ETC). The Employee Benefits Security Administration of the DOL has oversight of VEBAs. They are recorded annually and are made available to the public by simply calling the EBSA of the DOL in Washington, D.C. and requesting that information. The old General Motors VEBA that was providing benefits to GM-UAW employees also covered members represented by the “IUE-CWA” “USWA” and the other three unions. Salary employees and none union hourly employees benefits are also covered by the same VEBA. When a company combines more than one benefits fund under the umbrella of one great big Master trust (or VEBA) this is known as a commingled trust. What is more, there is nothing in the law that prevents a company from using the money in the VEBA for capital expenditures. GM reported doing exactly that in the companies Proxy statement of 2001. During the year 2000, General Motors raided the VEBA for over 1 billion dollars 1) for a 500 million dollar equity purchase in Suzuki (to build a plant) and 2) for a 500 million dollar equity injection into GMAC to show a profit that year. In other words, they looted the health care trust to build a plant over seas and transfer money from our healthcare VEBA to the stockholders. All while the “Cooperation Partner” looked the other way! In the beginning of year 2005, General Motors was telling Wall Street and the world they had 21 billion dollars in cash. Where was that money? You guessed it, “in the VEBA.” In the beginning of the year General Motors decided to take 6 Billion dollars out of the VEBA to cover three consecutive quarters of one billion dollar losses. Loses that grew from poor sales, rebates, the employee discounts made available to the public and massive recalls. However, during that time nobody, neither in General Motors or their “Cooperation Partner” (the UAW) spoke of the VEBA. Consequentially, General Motors and their “Cooperation Partner” had to come up with some kind of scheme to free up that VEBA money. Naturally, the plot was propagated in the media, newspapers across the country and in GM and Delphi plants as “Excessive Healthcare & Legacy Cost.” In the media, the centerpiece of the negotiations was to find a way to HELP UAW members, most of who never ever heard of a VEBA or knew one existed. Who on the shop floor associates Healthcare with a VEBA? The cleverly designed scheme provides General Motors with the right to absolve its existing VEBA and replace it with a new VEBA. Clearly, new trustees, chosen from a consortium of five industrial unions that represent GM workers, will manage the new VEBA. The member’s benefits of those five unions were and are covered in the old and new VEBA respectively. Interestingly enough, by transferring control of the new VEBA over to the unions, General Motors will only have to maintain enough money in the old VEBA to cover white-collar employees’ benefits. Why, because all the union represented workers have been thrown out of the old VEBA and placed into the new one. Now consider this, the old VEBA has 15 billion dollars in it while the new VEBA will only have 1 billion dollars. Secondly, GM reported in the news that it cost $200 millions a year to administer the old VEBA. Common sense and logic makes it difficult to understand how workers healthcare and legacy cost are better secured by 1 billion dollars, than they are by 15 billion dollars. Nevertheless, the “Cooperation Partners” have decided that this is what is best for the workers. In the mean time General Motors can let the GOOD TIMES ROLL because they have found another source of income. Obviously, it is not from selling cars, but then again we know they do not make their primary income from selling cars because every year they continue loosing market share. Therefore, since there is nothing else to sell off in GM except GMAC, which they are trying to do now, they get their hands on at least 10 billion dollars in the old VEBA and they look forward to the time they sell off GMAC and maybe get another 25 billion. Much like the automaker, the union is fast arriving at the point where the institution, the UAW International Union, can survive maybe with out any dues paying members at all. The latter is possible because the UAW has alternative sources of income as well. At present day, only one third of the UAW’s annual flat line income is generated from union dues. The other sources of income are from interest earned off the strike fund, retirement trust, joint funds charge backs and service charges on those joint funds charge-backs. General Motors on the other hand is probably walking into a $10 billion win fall they can do what they want. More importantly, GM has absolved the company of a 25 billion dollar legacy cost. It is a great deal for the “Cooperation Partners” but a terrible deal for the helpless masses of retirees who have been denied any democratic input, democratic voice, or democratic due process. Equally, it is a tragedy yet to happen to active workers who have been duped into believing that this negotiations is going to be NO COST to them, of course, not until such time when workers themselves become helpless retirees. The real tragedy is the betrayal of trust of both our members and retirees and the very instrument that was written and designed to protect members from this type of tyranny, “The UAW Constitution.” If you do not feel like reading the entire book may we encourage you to read the preamble? Moreover, if you have never read it before, you need to NOW! Then again we believe the actions taken during these negotiations by the UAW International Union delivered the finally blow to the Union by driving a dividing rod through its heart and sole of the union “THE UAW CONSTITUTION.” Next year members will be selecting delegates who will attend the UAW Constitutional Convention. WHY we ask? Why even hold a Constitutional Convention? The officers of the international union have proven they have no regard and have abandoned the principles set forth in the constitution and lest we forget they made a solemn pledge to uphold when they took office. Instead, the “Cooperation Partners” choose to do as they damn well please in spite of those beautiful words and the intent of that book. A lawyer and friend recently asked the following question. “Will the UAW as we have known it be around in the next five years?” We concurred that it would NOT! Ironically, we did not have any idea at that moment that the end was so close at hand. Keep in mind the “Cooperation Partners” will survive, but the UAW as a Trade Union is already constitutionally dead. “I never did give anybody hell, I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.” Harry S. Truman [email protected] The Constitutional Death of the UAW “Part two” By William Hanline and friends “The Constitutional Death of the UAW” was written for two reasons. Reason number one was to encourage UAW members in GM to oppose the newly negotiated healthcare agreement. Secondly and most importantly, it was written to express opposition to the autocratic style governance the Administrative Caucus (A.C.) or “Cooperation Partners” have been ramming down the throats of UAW members. The Cooperation Partners appear to be suffering symptoms of Alzheimer’ as the UAW moves into the 21st Century. For the Administrative Caucus seems hell bent on destroying our member’s democratic rights by deviating from and/or modifying the principles of governance outlined in the UAW Constitution. During their most recent struggles to win concessions for their company partners, it appears they have forgotten their UAW social trade union heritage. Based upon their actions, it appears the Cooperation Partners are intentionally strangling the Constitution to death by arbitrarily redesigning the objectives of the union so they can force members to capitulate to the corporate defined competitive needs of their company partners. Keep in mind when Miller and Wagoner speak of being competitive neither talks about shop floor inefficiencies, such as first time quality, machine down time, bad parts or materials from suppliers, or recalled parts and vehicles that result in high warrantee cost. And last but not least, in honor of our esteemed friend Dave Yettaw, remember all the excessive overtime that results from criminal mismanagement at GM and Delphi. The only thing NOT GLOBALLY COMETETIVE at GM and Delphi is management. During, this writing, several questions seemed to persist. 1) Do the International Executive Board members care enough to stop acting as company partners in order to save what is left of the UAW? 2) Why should they? The answers will come later in this letter. The modifications the Cooperation Partners made to the collective bargaining process during the Ford/ Visteon and GM negotiations were subtle but were designed to fast track concessions through the bargaining process. Why did they throw away their regards and respect for the democratic rights of UAW members during those talks? The most recent examples started when Gettelfinger refused to re-open the Ford/Visteon agreements. By refusing to reopen the agreements, the Cooperation Partners had to modify the collective bargaining procedure to accomplish Gettelfinger’s wishes, so he could give the company partners what they wanted in concessions at the same time tie the membership’s hands or ability to fight back. THE STRIKE! Let us take a closer look, first by asking some very important questions. 1) Who negotiated the terms of those agreements? 2) Was the International Union Top Negotiating Committee (team) involved? 3) Were the Ford /Visteon and GM agreements approved by the IEB of the International Union before the language was presented to the GM and Ford/Visteon councils, (Local presidents and shop chairpersons) for approval? Fact is, only one person signed the Ford Visteon agreement, that was Vice President Gerald Bantom, Richard Shoemaker signed the GM document. It appears they unilaterally negotiated the terms of both agreements. If not, why then were the pictures of the top negotiating team excluded and not printed in the UAW-GM and UAW-Ford highlights? Did the Top Bargaining Team sign the new agreements as required? Some members may not even know that one of their local officials is on the top negotiating team. All you need to do is find a copy of your 2003 contract highlights and look at the back page. For example, in GM and Delphi their names are Ron Gettelfinger President UAW; Richard Shoemaker Vice President of the GM department; Dave Curson director of UAW Special Projects, Bill Stevenson A.A. to the President, Jim Beardsley, Henderson Slaughter and Joe Spring are Administrative Assistants to V.P Shoemaker, Jim Shroat, Ron Bieber, Tom Walsh, Tom Weekly, Tony Ortiz, Willie C. Williams and Scott Campbell, are assistant directors of the UAW GM Department; Frank Mire director of the UAW Health and Safety Department, Dan Sherrick General Counsel; Chuck Gayney director of Social Security Page 2 Department; Linda Ewing Director Research Department, Leon Skudelarek administrator of the Umpire and review Staff; Mark Kelly and David Shoemaker coordinators of the GM department; Mark Hawkins Shop chair of 598; Clyde Sims shop chair of Local 913; Mike Jones shop chair Local 499; Midge Collette president of Local 292; Lee Jones shop chair Local 5960; Rick O’Donnell shop chair Local 163; Jim Jenkins shop chair local 977; Ron Brogan shop chair local 668; Darrel Shepard president of Local 2157; Larry Kuk shop chair Local 167; , and Bob Bueno shop chair of Local 2162. The GM-Delphi council made up of Local Presidents and Shop Chairpersons elect members to each top negotiating team. The people named above were elected during a UAW-GM council meeting prior to national contract negotiations. They were chosen to represent the UAW dues paying members in GM and Delphi for the duration of the contract and Constitution. If the members duly elected representatives were not used, how did those negotiations represent the members democratically? Maybe we should ask the folks mentioned above a couple of questions such as, where were they during the negotiations of the GM healthcare agreement. Then ask, if they signed the documents also. Gettelfinger and Shoemaker alone cannot be blamed for stomping on the members Constitutional democratic rights. Remember, the IEB had to endorse the newly negotiated agreements before those agreements went before our local presidents and shop chairpersons or GM and Ford Councils for their vote of approval. Therefore, approval by the IEB members simply implicates them in these shenanigans as well. Consequentially, the Cooperation Partners (IEB) changed the negotiation process to exclude the top negotiators. Why did Gettelfinger allow that? Was it to save face with the media or with his Cooperation Partners, GM and Ford? Or was he to proud to reopen the agreement and negotiate it accordance to constitutional procedures, just so he could say “LOOK, I told everybody I would not reopen the GM contract and I lived up to my word” However, everything he did to accomplish that feat is typical oligarchial style democracy in action. I.E. that is when one person or a small group of people dictates to the masses what is best for them and the masses get to vote but one way, the way that person or the autocrats dictate. The UAW Constitution requires that the members must be allowed to vote on whether a bona fide committee can even discuss changes in a contract. Just to discuss changes! The modifications made by the A.C. to prevent members from expressing their desires to have some one Just Discuss reopening the agreement is another example of how the Cooperation Partners circumvented the UAW Constitution. Ask yourself, did you get to vote to allow the Cooperation Partners to “discuss” changes to the present agreement? NO! Did you vote on any resolutions pertaining to the changes? NO! Why not? According to the Constitution, changes to our national agreement can only be made through resolutions adopted by local unions and voted on by our delegates during a special bargaining convention. Was that done? NO! An analysis of the two agreements mentioned above, and how they were negotiated, will confirm they are excellent examples of Saturn style Memorandums Of Understandings or “MOUs.” The UAW negotiated hundreds of MOUs at Saturn before Saturn members voted to go under the GM umbrella. That would have been OK for Saturn then, however, the last time I looked, we do not work under a Saturn style agreement. The problem with the Saturn “MOU” style of bargaining is simple, how can any member place total faith in one man? To believe and expect one individual to be knowledgeable enough to protect all the healthcare benefits is preposterous if not down right irresponsible. Have you ever seen a copy of the UAW/GM healthcare agreement? If not, you need to ask your benefits representatives to look at a copy or request to see a copy of the “Benefits White Book” given to them and your council members. The healthcare portion of our national agreement is very large and extremely complex. Remember, collective bargainer’s copies or the “White Book” with all the changes in the healthcare agreement are passed out to UAW council members just before the national ratification vote. You will discover that the health care book is usually much larger than the national contract book itself. Did Richard Shoemaker pass out white books to Delphi and GM council members before they voted to adopt the new GM healthcare agreement? Page 3 Ask your local president and shop chairperson to see his or her copy. If they did not get a copy, ask them, what exactly did they vote on? Another example of the Cooperation Partners willingness to deprive UAW members of their right to vote took place right after the 2003 negotiation. In 2003, Delphi and GM-UAW members ratified an agreement that allowed the Cooperation Partners to negotiate later a two-tier wage for all new hires in Delphi. However, UAW-Delphi members never voted on the negotiated changes. Again, the Cooperation Partners arbitrarily negotiated a massive money saving concession for their company partners and fast tracked it by changing the bargaining process. Brother Gregg Shotwell, a delegate to the 33rd UAW Constitutional Convention (Con-Con) and Guide to his local union recognized the change and challenged it by filing an appeal to the Public Review Board or (PRB). Almost two years later and with overwhelming evidence supporting his claim, the UAW paid PRB refuses to rule on his appeal. I recall what people in my plant said when I approached them about voting no for the 2003 contract because of the two-tier wage. Many of them said “My son (or daughter) would be happy to work for 15 dollars an hour, because where else could they go to make that kind of money.” My Grandmother taught me: “You reap what you sow and when dealing with people be very careful what you wish for or force upon others for it may come home to haunt you.” Well now, there is a great possibility that the two tier 15 dollar an hour starting wage the Cooperation Partners thought was ok in 2003 and 2004 will become the benchmark for the bankruptcy judge when he rules on the agreement. How can the Cooperation Partners argue in defense of our level of wages in bankruptcy court when they were guilty of negotiating and adopting lower wages for new hires to help Delphi remain competitive? How can they justify saying NO to Miller’s wage cuts when they went on record in support of the two-tier wage by asking members, “Would you strike for someone who has not yet been hired?” Even crazier, how can they or any seniority members on the shop floor, approach a new hire who was hired under the new wage agreement and ask them to stand in solidarity with them when the UAW calls for a strike over Miller’s proposed wage and benefits cuts? What is more, how can Shoemaker and Gettelfinger explain to the public why we are on strike knowing they created the benchmark, which was the same as saying the UAW member in Delphi is paid too much money per hour. Finally, do not forget UAW members in Delphi and GM adopted the two-tier wage overwhelmingly in 2003. The Cooperation Partners may try to save face by saying they made a mistake. Problem with that remark is mistakes are only as serious as the results they create. None of the above could ever come to be if the Cooperation Partners lived up to their oath of office and remained dedicated to the wording in the UAW Constitution! That is why the Constitution was created in the first place. In 2003, UAW-GM members voted on the UAW-Delphi National Contract. Was it because both Delphi and GM councils approved the tentative agreement? If you recall, recently the Delphi council attended Shoemakers unilateral meeting at the UAW/GM CHR that approved the new GM health care deal. With out a question, the GM deal will eventually affect workers in Delphi. Why then, were Delphi employees excluded from the ratification vote on the GM healthcare agreement? Was the exclusion of Delphi workers from that ratification vote testimony that Shoemaker and Gettelfinger are resigned to the fact that we are going to get what ever the judge decides in January? Are they already defeated? Sounds like it, for after reading what the Union and Shoemaker said as reported in Brett Clanton’s article in the Detroit News (December 2, 2003) we can only believe they have No fight in them. “The job now is to try to save as many jobs and benefits as possible” and “The best we will probably be able to do is buy time for retirement and save some plants,” said Shoemaker. Does that sound like union leaders ready to fight for Social justice and economic improvement? Let us now look at the questions I brought up at the beginning of this piece. 1) Do the International Executive Board members care enough to stop violating the UAW Constitution in order to save what is left of the UAW? The answer is NO! The phlegmatic and stoic temperaments exhibited by the Cooperation Partners became imbedded in them over the course of the last Page 4 twenty years of Jointness. The corporate style thinking they exhibit comes from several sources. However, as Joint Partners their obligation to up hold the articles of incorporation of the national joint programs is one contributing factor. Apparently, the Cooperation Partners believe the articles and By-laws of the Joint centers supercede the language in the UAW Constitution. Let us compare the “objectives” of both organizations. For example, Article II of the Incorporation documents for the CHR (filed with the state of Michigan in 2004) and Article II of the UAW Constitution. Article II of the CHR reads: “The Center provides development, delivery, and administration of education, training, and other programs and activities that may be jointly agreed to by the parties in order to meet future competitive realities and enhance the employment security of UAW-represented General Motors employees ,as well as employees of entities and enterprises previously controlled by General Motors.” X….study and explore ways of eliminating potential problems which reduce the competitiveness and inhibit the economic development of the plant, area or industry.” Emphasis added Article II Sect 1 of the 2002 UAW Constitution reads: Section 1. “To improve working conditions, create a uniform system or shorter hours, higher wages, health care and pensions; to maintain and protect the interest of workers under the jurisdiction of this International Union.” Sections were not included to reduce redundancy, however, I do encourage every member to read the UAW Constitution. In my opinion, the language of the two articles above is contrary to each other. How can the Cooperation Partners work to improve our wages, hours, and pensions when they are obligated to make the company competitive in the world market place through their obligations to the joint programs? It is impossible! Example: The last round of negotiations produced the biggest concessionary agreement ever negotiated by the UAW. Then, with in a week GM announced the closing of nine plants and reductions in it’s workforce of 30,000 more UAW members. All we heard from the Cooperation Partners was a complaint that GM was eliminating 20% more employees than was negotiated. The latter leads right in to the next question. 2) Why should the Cooperation Partners (IEB) care? In the “Constitutional Death of the UAW,” it was mentioned how the UAW International Union is becoming more and more dependent on outside corporate money to maintain its primal financial existence. What I mean by primal existence for example is the Union is acting very much as an animal caught in a trap. An animal will fight for survival its survival even chew off a foot or appendage to stay alive. The UAW, like that animal is willing to shed its appendages, dues paying members and Local unions in exchange for income from the automakers to keep the international union viable and financially well. The Cooperation Partners done this with joint funds and appear to be doing it again with the newly negotiated Health care VEBA. Could they have possibly created another form of income to maintain their high life styles and life long benefits as they did with Joint funds? To bargain means to give something in return for something. What did the Cooperation Partners get in return for GM’s healthcare concessions? Why would Gettelfinger and Shoemaker agree to a mere 1 billion dollar healthcare VEBA in exchange for a 15 billion dollar healthcare trust? It did not make sense, not until GM made its plant-closing announcement! Since UAW membership is down to 650,000 dues paying members, why would the “Cooperation Partners” go along with GM’s needs to eliminate 30,000 more jobs? The loss of 30,000 dues paying members is equal to a loss of 16 million dollars a year before per-capita taxes. The answer to the question above lies with the new healthcare VEBA. The terms of that new healthcare VEBA allows 20% of its income to be used for administrative purposes. Well, trustees from the UAW and the other five unions will administer the new healthcare VEBA. Think about it, 20% of the first 1 billion dollars GM puts into the new VEBA in the first year is 200 million dollars. Did the Cooperation Partners negotiate yet another pot of money to dip into to supplemental its annual flat line income when GM eliminates 30,000 more dues paying members? So was the 2005 GM negotiations, and will future negotiations be strictly about healthcare or was it and will they more about creating other sources of income for the UAW International Union while GM and the other automakers eliminates tens of thousands of UAW jobs? What did the UAW get in exchange? At this time allow me to offer a word of “warning” to all UAW members in Ford and DaimlerChrysler. Before you vote to except healthcare concessions make sure the healthcare plan you are voting on will not be co-mingled with the GM plan. Think about this, since the five unions and the UAW could be partially administering the new VEBA, will there be any more need for negotiating of healthcare benefits with the companies. Instead, will member’s healthcare benefits wind up at the mercy and control of the UAW and the other five unions? If so, will there be a need to negotiate healthcare with the automakers in the future? Do you feel comfortable with that? What is more, the co-mingling of trust could increase the flow of your hard earned money into all six union’s coffer. A dear friend and staunch union brother who worked for the International Union for most of his life told me once that this is how they think at Solidarity House. “What a beautiful UAW we would have if we did not have any members to bother with.” If the Cooperation Partners can replace dues with income from various trusts, such as the VEBAs and reimbursements from the joint funds, why should the Cooperation Partners care? They will not have to worry, for their job and income security would be protected for life. As a Delphi worker, I am frightened to speculate what the Cooperation Partners have in store for the workers in Delphi, for there are only 24,000 of us left. Since Gettelfinger and Shoemaker are being so reticent about the UAW loosing 30,000 members in GM, what can we in Delphi look forward too. Better yet, what will the payoff be to the union, another new healthcare VEBA for Delphi employees? Is that why they did not have Delphi UAW members vote on the new GM healthcare language? There is a solution to the problem, but it is going to take work, a concerted effort by all UAW members, not just those in Delphi and GM. I mean all UAW members! First, we have to stand together and Vote NO on any more concessionary agreements. That would send a clear picture to the UAW International Executive Board that we understand concessionary agreements do not save jobs. Secondly, now that we have recognized the problem, we need to communicate the problem to our Brothers and Sisters and ask them to vote for candidates who run for delegates who will demand that there be a change of leadership in each region. In other words, require your candidates for delegate to vote for regional directors who will vote for reform and remove any Cooperation Partners from IEB positions. This is not asking members to violate the UAW Constitution, where it is written that local unions cannot dictate how their delegates vote at the Constitutional Convention. What the latter means is directing delegates by Vote or membership action. However, members can chose delegates who offer change on their platforms that meets their requirements. A platform can be established on the shop floor and it does not constitute membership action. Furthermore, the members not the candidates can organize it. So let us work together to restore the UAW to its original constitutional objectives, to restore it to a membership driven union instead of a capital driven company. Let us remove it from the autocratic control of the Cooperative Partners such as Gettelfinger who believe that the UAW should be a company union. Remember this, every day when Ron Gettelfinger gets up in the morning he understands he is one day closer to the UAW Constitutional Convention where he will be re-elected. Lets keep that from happening and work for change! Onward in Solidarity Bill Hanline [email protected] “I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell…” Harry S. Truman Edited December 8, 2005 by buickman

[91z4me]

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[post="54908"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That was the longest post EVER. I really doubt 1 person will read it all the way through, I know I didn't. How about you respond point by point to ANY of the posts directed to you. Tell us how WE are wrong and how YOU are right. That is how you win an argument. You don't post a snippet of a response and you don't post other people's opinion, which has no bearing on the affore mentioned argument, to support your own.

Jim be a man and fight back don't run away and ignore stuff while shouting 'The Rick Wagner sky is falling..."

Come on Jim PROVE to us that you are right.

[Guest buickman]

Yeah that is GMs big plan.  Sell no cars so they can close dealerships and ship production to Korea, which has such a great commercial infrastructure, and then import the cars back to the US.  Way to go Sherlock you broke GMs big plan open with a sledge hammer! :rolleyes:

Seriously Jim you blame Rick for the ENTIRE Fiat Fiasco?  Come on there were likely HUNDREDS of people involved in that deal.  Teams of lawyers and tons of analysis done and you know GM as a company decided that at the time, with all the information at their disposal it was a good move to make.  To blame one person, even if he was the point man, is rediculous.  Also I think that there are other reasons and I am willing to listen to them to see WHY you have a personal vendetta against Mr. Wagner.  I don't know him from you BUT I do see you quoting yourself and making up poems, seems a little odd for someone who thinks they are executive material.

The beancounter mentality has always been present at GM it is what happens when you get on top.  You become conservative.  GM has been a VERY conservative company since the 60s.  The last BIG risk it took engineering wise was the 4-6-8 caddy V8 and before that the Corvair.  That was a HUGE risk. 

Develop an entirely new structure, unibody, rear engined air cooled flat 6, for originally 2 cars and later only 1.  The Corvair lineup could have become a second VW, they had a truck, a wagon, a van, a coupe, a convertible, and a sedan, but instead they persued a person investigating the car and tarnished their rep, made Nader a hero.  And then scrapped the line.

Now GM has had its LONG draw out approval process to make sure that flops don't make it to production.  I think the Aztek showed that this doesn't catch everything and it showed the problem with design by committie.

The best thing GM can do RIGHT NOW is reduce its overhead by closing under utilized plants, reducing the healthcare to retirees and UAW members.  Next it must address product.  This has already begun the designers have been unleashed.  Now instead of things being toned down to the point of melted wax we get the cars that the designers wanted.  Solstice is the first.  Look at the 1st drawings and the production car in the showrooms and BOOM you see what I mean.  GM actually was aggressive and look what it got for it, a SURE fire hit.  Also on projects partly through the approval process more money was spent on interiors and exterior details.  The LaCrosse was to far for the overall designs to be touched so Lutz, who Wagner brought in BTW, threw money into materials and fitments on the interior, chassis tuning and got a DOHC engine into a Buick for the 1st time EVER!  The Impala was next retune the interior and exterior.  Use subtle style and finally stick that V8 under the W-body that has been engineered to go in since the late 1990s!

Lucerne and DTS probably the finest pure luxury large cars on the planet.  I am not talking sports sedans, I am not talking ultra luxury cars I am talking about BIG Bold AMERICAN cars with comfortable rides, great power, and un-ending style.  I wasn't a fan of the Lucerne till I saw a black and chrome one in traffic and let me tell you my opinion changed 100% on the spot, this comes from a 24 year old male who is a sports car NUT! 

Now what has the press and other members of the auto world seen that we haven't?  The 1st purely 100% Lutz influenced cars and trucks.  2008 CTS said to be perfect by many.  2008 Malibu is said to knock your socks off, that is right a Malibu!  Enclave said to be pure beauty, I think you may have actually seen this.

Now while the designers have been busy making GM cars stylish again GM powertrain and others have been working on new things.  6 speed autos, DOD V8s and V6s, new OHC V8s, VERY powerful 4 cylinders, DI for the future, BAS mild hybrid system to cost less and be in more cars than Toyota can count.  Lots of things comming.

So while you fume about something that 1 man was involved in and call for his public beheading he was busy bringing in the right people to get GM back on track and managable and MUCH more profitable.  Yes people will loose their jobs and yes there will be hard times but in the end a much stronger, quicker, and healthier GM will emerge.  And THAT is what is important.

[post="54881"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM has good product and more coming. It won't fly in the market as long as the marketing mavens methodically mishandle merchandising. Beyond that I stand by the first twenty points as described and recommended for implementation.