Toyota's benefits to the North American economy

[Polish_Kris]

http://www.challengernky.com/articles/2005...d2827742811.txt

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Toyota Spreads Holiday Cheer in the USA
Japanese Automaker Creates 386,300 American Jobs

http://www.info-toyota.com/us_jobs.htm

[Newbiewar]

http://www.challengernky.com/articles/2005...d2827742811.txt

&

Toyota Spreads Holiday Cheer in the USA
Japanese Automaker Creates 386,300 American Jobs

http://www.info-toyota.com/us_jobs.htm

[post="53104"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the worst part is they arent employeed by Toyota... only 37,000

10% of Americans are employeed by the automotive industry... that would make about 28 million americans...


even indirectly employeed, some how Toyota counted 386,300 jobs... for a 15% market share... that means Toyota ought to have created 4.2 million jobs... but.. like everyone continues to explain Toyota is bad for the US ecconomy...

[regfootball]

anyone have a towel? I just blew chunks on my desk.

[SoCalCTS]

Toyota, Just how many American jobs were lost as a result of Toyota?!?!? Even with 386,300 jobs created they probably knocked out 750,000 American jobs because cars made by US manufacturers carry far more domestic content than Japanese cars assembled in the USA.

[Polish_Kris]

Toyota, Just how many American jobs were lost as a result of Toyota?!?!?

[post="53182"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't know why you blame the lay offs going on in Ford and GM Toyota's fault?

[SoCalCTS]

I don't recall saying such a thing. The Ford and GM plant closures do not necessarily reflect any direct link to Toyota. I am simply pointing out that Toyota creating X amount of jobs is just a deceptive number that doesn't reflect a true benefit to America. If an American "startup" automobile company had come along and built cars instead of Toyota more jobs would have been created in America. Why? Because a local company would have found local suppliers and would imploy the majority of its workers in the USA. Toyota still imports much of its componentry from overseas, it does its R&D overseas and its administrative offices are overseas. Don't you think that there is a ripple effect in tires, glass, plastics, electronics, banking, marketing, autoparts and other related industries?

[Polish_Kris]

I don't recall saying such a thing. The Ford and GM plant closures do not necessarily reflect any direct link to Toyota.

I am simply pointing out that Toyota creating X amount of jobs is just a deceptive number that doesn't reflect a true benefit to America.

If an American "startup" automobile company had come along and built cars instead of Toyota more jobs would have been created in America. Why? Because a local company would have found local suppliers and would imploy the majority of its workers in the USA. Toyota still imports much of its componentry from overseas, it does its R&D overseas and its administrative offices are overseas.

Don't you think that there is a ripple effect in tires, glass, plastics, electronics, banking, marketing, autoparts and other related industries?

[post="53296"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

actually, i will have to disagree, cause i open the hood up of an accord, camry, sienna, altima, and almost every part says made in usa on it, even the engines are made locally. The Accord has about over 95% local content if im not mistaken. if you dont believe me go to a toyota dealership and pop the hood of an avalon, i swear ive seen nothing but made in usa, and mexico labels.

[BrewSwillis]

I don't know why you blame the lay offs going on in Ford and GM Toyota's fault?

[post="53266"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

O.K. There is a certain amount of market share available for selling vehicles. At one point in time, the Big 3 pretty much split all of it (with a small amount going to European brands). Then came the Japanese brands. They could build vehicles much cheaper in a culture where people actually took honor in making a quality product. So they started selling more of these cheaper vehicles in the US, which started to take away some of the Big 3's market share. Then the word caught on that these cheap cars were not that bad, and more people started buying them. Then, at some point, these vehicles were no longer cheaper than their domestic competitors, and people still continued to buy them en masse under the idea that they were some how superior in quality to their domestic competitors....which turns out to be factually untrue in many cases. Then they built a couple "final assembly locations" in the US, and BANG.....they are now "built in America". The market share for Toyota and Honda continues to rise, as the market share for the Big 3 continues to fall.

How do you not feel Toyota is to blame for reduced market share for the Big 3?? What if there was no Toyota or Honda?? That market share would then be split between the Big 3 and the few European brands. So, no matter how you slice it, it is Toyota's fault (directly or indirectly) for the Big 3 laying off workers.

[siegen]

I am simply pointing out that Toyota creating X amount of jobs is just a deceptive number that doesn't reflect a true benefit to America.

If an American "startup" automobile company had come along and built cars instead of Toyota more jobs would have been created in America. Why? Because a local company would have found local suppliers and would imploy the majority of its workers in the USA. Toyota still imports much of its componentry from overseas, it does its R&D overseas and its administrative offices are overseas.

Don't you think that there is a ripple effect in tires, glass, plastics, electronics, banking, marketing, autoparts and other related industries?

[post="53296"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Exactly. Only a small amount of Toyota's cars are put together in the U.S., while a lot of the parts are still being imported from Japan and other places (like you stated). Then there are the cars that are assembled entirely and then imported from Japan. Toyota may make a few assembly plants in the U.S. and employ a few 100k workers, but a lot of their parts come from outside the country, where-as an American manufacturer would get more of their parts inside the U.S.

It's just Toyota marketting bull.

[BrewSwillis]

Some say it doesn't matter if the domestic manufacturers (which include DaimlerChrysler, the merger of Germany's Daimler-Benz and the old Chrysler Corp.) continue shrinking because Asian and European companies will simply build more cars in the U.S., and create more jobs, as their market share here grows.

To an extent that's true. But replacing the sale of a GM car with the sale of an Audi or a Honda is not an even trade for American workers. Foreign manufacturers now assemble in the U.S. about 44% of the cars they sell here, up substantially since the 1980s. But GM assembles in the U.S. about 97% of the cars it sells here. Although foreign manufacturers are using more American parts in the cars they assemble in the U.S. (a Honda Accord, for instance, has 70% domestic content), the domestic manufacturers typically buy even more American-made parts.

http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-...la-news-columns

[balthazar]

The Accord has about over 95% local content if im not mistaken.

...a Honda Accord, for instance, has 70% domestic content...

Oopsie.

[HarleyEarl]

Well, the master plan appears to be working. Convince them that Toyotas and Hondas are American. Doesn't it just make you want to hurl. They lost the war but won the battle. It was a calculated strategy and it worked...I read several years ago that this was their long range plan to beat the Americans at their own game because of their humiliation at losing the war. And North Americans bought right into it.

[Croc]

Good catch Balthazar. Only a tool would post this kind of stuff on a GM site. BTW, does anybody remember when we found out he posts stuff on this site only to go to his Toyota site and link to it here and make fun of us? Yea, he's only here because he is TED's friend. Funny thing...none of the Toyota site members made fun of us; they were very mature about it.

[Polish_Kris]

Good catch Balthazar.  Only a tool would post this kind of stuff on a GM site.

BTW, does anybody remember when we found out he posts stuff on this site only to go to his Toyota site and link to it here and make fun of us?  Yea, he's only here because he is TED's friend.  Funny thing...none of the Toyota site members made fun of us; they were very mature about it.

[post="53567"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If you don't like what I write, don't read it.

You are not so mature yourself, calling me a Tool.... And what I did was a joke, I appologized to Ted about that, end of story, stop bringing it up. There are people on this board I enjoy talking to, and the topics I post seem to get allot of hits and responses. Edited December 6, 2005 by Polish_Kris

[Flybrian]

You are not so mature yourself, calling me a Tool.... And what I did was a joke, I appologized to Ted about that, end of story, stop bringing it up.  There are people on this board I enjoy talking to, and the topics I post seem to get allot of hits and responses.

[post="53622"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You owed the apology to the members of this board, whom you've insulted in the past but apparently now praise.

[Croc]

I didn't call you a tool, I said only a tool would do X. By doing X, the logic is there that you, sir, may very well be a tool. That still doesn't make me guilty of calling you a tool, as I never explicitly did so. You can call me as immature as you'd like, but several members have said that I am pretty damn mature for any age, and yes that is on public record on this site. I might be cold and patronizing on occasion, but calling people on their attacks against this site and the members of this site is not demonstrating a lack of maturity, it is exposing hypocrisy. If that bothers you so much, then maybe you should just stick to posting at your Toyota forums.

[Satty]

My favorite tool is a hammer.

[Polish_Kris]

I didn't call you a tool, I said only a tool would do X.  By doing X, the logic is there that you, sir, may very well be a tool.  That still doesn't make me guilty of calling you a tool, as I never explicitly did so.

You can call me as immature as you'd like, but several members have said that I am pretty damn mature for any age, and yes that is on public record on this site.  I might be cold and patronizing on occasion, but calling people on their attacks against this site and the members of this site is not demonstrating a lack of maturity, it is exposing hypocrisy.  If that bothers you so much, then maybe you should just stick to posting at your Toyota forums.

[post="53642"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Nothing is bothering me, what's the problem..?

[Croc]

You wouldn't have called me out if there weren't a problem.

[BrewSwillis]

Here's my favorite Tool:

[CARBIZ]

Anybody out there that doesn't think there is some sort of master plan at work doesn't know a thing about the way Japan Inc. operates. I really have to hand it to the Japanese, though: they are beating AMericans at their own game and now they aren't even pretending any more. Cheap radios, good radios, high end radios. Cheap televisions, good televisions, high end televisions. Cheap cars, good cars, high end cars. The formula works, Americans buy it and judging by some of the silly crap on this board, some people even believe it. We are talking about loss of assembly line jobs and parts jobs. Fine. Nobody is denying that those jobs are important, and most are decently paying, too. But it is the loss of the ancillary jobs and the technical jobs that are most crucial and nobody seems to be tracking it. Is Washington really that stupid? Boeing is under assault from Airbus. Airbus is propped up by various European governments, not unlike MITI in Japan props up Japanese companies. Japan now has its own space industry. Boeing is not #1 any more. What will be left of America once GM is gone (or at least subordinate to Toyota) and Boeing is a shell of itself? Do you not see that the loss of the technical jobs will relegate America to a backwater status? Won't it be hilarious during the next Big War (Korea, Iran, you name it) when the U.S. military has to go to Japan and commandeer the plants there to build armaments.

[Hudson]

And what if this conspiracy theory is true and Japan wants to take over the US economy by driving GM out of business? If this were to happen, Toyota and Honda would lose their single largest and most profitable market. Toyota and Honda need the US to have a prosperous economy in order to remain prosperous themselves. Toyota and Honda are opening plants all over North America. Their suppliers are opening more and more plants in North America to support them. These plants are hiring more and more Americans. Competition is good. It improves products and lowers prices...both excellent things for the consumer. If GM can't compete, they should find an industry in which they can compete.

[91z4me]

actually, i will have to disagree, cause i open the hood up of an accord, camry, sienna, altima, and almost every part says made in usa on it, even the engines are made locally.  The Accord has about over 95% local content if im not mistaken.  if you dont believe me go to a toyota dealership and pop the hood of an avalon, i swear ive seen nothing but made in usa, and mexico labels.

[post="53299"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Really? That disagrees with the statistics:

These facts were posted here a while back. The amount of money put back into the US GNP by GM is enough to settle the argument.


82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion.
Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003.
Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM.

Posted by Impala64 on CZ28.com

[Hudson]

Really?  That disagrees with the statistics:

These facts were posted here a while back. The amount of money put back into the US GNP by GM is enough to settle the argument.
82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion.
Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003.
Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM.

Posted by Impala64 on CZ28.com

There are three kinds of lies: damn lies, little white lies, and statistics.

GM imports TWO models currently (not including Saabs) for the US market. Therefore their average domestic content is very high. Honda imports about 16% (with almost 100% non-NA content) of the cars and trucks they sell in the US. Toyota imports about 1/3 of its products. These imported vehicles are averaged into the above numbers.

A Honda Accord built in the US will have a very high North American content...as will a Toyota Camry, Mazda6, Toyota Sienna, Nissan Altima, and many other North American-built vehicles.

There are two sides to the workers-per-vehicle numbers as well. First, you're averaging imports (as stated above) with domestically produced vehicles. Second, the transplants aren't typically tied down by the UAW and can actually hire the number of people needed to produce a vehicle...instead of being required to hire MORE than are necessary.

And where do these investment numbers come from? Toyota has opened (or are in the act of opening) four assembly plants, a few powertrain plants, and assorted parts plants...as well as opening engineering and R&D faciliites all over the country. Honda and Nissan (and Hyundai and others) have made similar (although not as extensive) investments. GM has opened TWO plants (neither operating at capacity) in this timeframe...and closed how many?

GM is just a business. Until the public at large wants to BUY what they're selling, they're going to continue to REDUCE the investments made...lower the number of employees it has...and reduce the amount it pays toward retirees benefits. GM's not going to continue to SEEM so charitable in the future.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

SPREAD THAT PROPAGANDA!!!!!!

I'd like to see a similar study done on GM... Then we'll see who contributes more..

But, I'm sure "this" will become the prevalent theme of the media and Toyota and ultimately, the attitudes of Americans.

And where do these investment numbers come from? Toyota has opened (or are in the act of opening) four assembly plants, a few powertrain plants, and assorted parts plants...as well as opening engineering and R&D faciliites all over the country. Honda and Nissan (and Hyundai and others) have made similar (although not as extensive) investments. GM has opened TWO plants (neither operating at capacity) in this timeframe...and closed how many?

GM is just a business. Until the public at large wants to BUY what they're selling, they're going to continue to REDUCE the investments made...lower the number of employees it has...and reduce the amount it pays toward retirees benefits. GM's not going to continue to SEEM so charitable in the future.

Dear Hudson....

It seems that you're so willing to see GM fail. Why the grudge?

Sure GM is not a charity, but they have done and continue to do FAR MORE for this economy and nation than Toyota.

[91z4me]

It seems that you're so willing to see GM fail. Why the grudge?

Sure GM is not a charity, but they have done and continue to do FAR MORE for this economy and nation than Toyota.

[post="53843"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Don't take Hudson's words the wrong way. What I posted was off a message board that I happened to be reading at the same time as this thread. I didn't know how much was true, I couldn't prove even 1 point of that. Since having read MANY of Hudson's posts I can say I trust him and his knowlege about as much as anyone else's I have ever read. If I knew who he was I would probably go buy some of his books and look his articles just to see how he thinks. Don't take him as anti GM or pro GM he is a guy with real answers and statistics he DOES likely know the impact that specific plants have had on areas and content analysis on specific vehicles done by others. He is just spreading the truth he can, at times, be a very strong supporter of GM but only if what is being said is truthful.

[Hudson]

Dear Hudson....

It seems that you're so willing to see GM fail. Why the grudge?

Sure GM is not a charity, but they have done and continue to do FAR MORE for this economy and nation than Toyota.

No grudge. No desire to see GM fail. I just don't like incorrect information being spread.

If someone had posted equally skewed information ABOUT GM, I would have corrected it as well.

GM has been part of the American economy since 1908...and Toyota's only been here since 1958....sure GM's contributed more. But that's not to say that Toyota's not contributing substatial amounts now.

Why should GM be required to hire more people than necessary to build a car or truck? Why should GM be required (with UAW membership) to work at a disadvantage to transplants? Why can't GM hire and fire as needed...like most American businesses do? Why must GM provide pensions to every worker when most other industries use 401k plans or other forms of profitsharing?

GM is running a decathalon with its legs bound and one arm tied behind its back. And it's not Toyota's fault.

[haypops]

I think that GM will do just fine when all the dust clears. It won't help them to make up stuff and hold unreasoned grudges against Toyota. More than any other foreign maker, they try to Americanize their operations. The article linked to in the first post in this topic discusses the Kentucky(Georgtown) plant. 90% of the parts used in the cars assembeled here come from less than one days drive. That means they are made mostly in Indiana and Ohio (and of course Georgetown). Another 5% of the parts for these cars from California. I know that many of you consider California a foreign country, but hay that's your problem. About 10 years ago son-in-law #2 bought a new Toyota pickup. I looked under the hood and the parts were mostly names like Harrison and delco (GM suppliers). When the Ford Explorer had its roll over problems it turned out that GM and Toyota used the same model of Firestone tire, but with more stringent specificatins. Toyota routinely holds its American suppliers to standards not required of them by other manufacturers (GM in the past not included). Those millons of people employed in the automotive industry include parts store clerks, mechganics at Sears, and many other related firelds that are just as dependant on Toyota owners as domestic ones.

[BrewSwillis]

The article linked to in the first post in this topic discusses the Kentucky(Georgtown) plant.  90% of the parts used in the cars assembeled here come from less than one days drive.  That means they are made mostly in Indiana and Ohio (and of course Georgetown).  Another 5% of the parts for these cars from California. 

Those millons of people employed in the automotive industry include parts store clerks, mechganics at Sears, and many other related firelds that are just as dependant on Toyota owners as domestic ones.

[post="54028"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't know what article you read.....but I don't see that 90% statistic anywhere in the articles in the first post of this thread.

You fail to realize that if there was absolutely no Toyota that ever existed, then those auto parts clerks, and Sears mechanics would just be dependant on even more Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler vehicles.

Toyota only has 38,000 employees in North America, and Chevy is going to cut an additional 30,000 on top of what they have cut in the recent past. Add in the employees that Ford and Chrysler have cut.....and the net gain of Toyota employees is like -10,000 or something.

[haypops]

I don't know what article you read.....but I don't see that 90% statistic anywhere in the articles in the first post of this thread.

[post="54079"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

i didn't say this information was included in the article.

[BrewSwillis]

i didn't say this information was included in the article.

[post="54100"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So you made it up? :unsure:

If not.....I would like to see a source.