Motor Trend: Buick Future Car Plans

[cire]

I saw this article on Motor Trend this morning:

Link: http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_ve...lans/index.html

Source: Motor Trend

[Paolino]

So the only thing I didn't know about was the "super epsilon" Lucerne replacement.

[smk4565]

Super epsilon is probably just long wheel base. They don't need 2 long wheel base sedans and a short wheelbase epsilon sedan. GM's product planning is god awful. Buick should have a Delta II sedan that shares no body panels with the Cruze, priced $23-29,000. Regal as the midsize at $27-33,000 and LaCrosse is a full size car, that should be $31-40k (obviously the 2010 LaCrosse would need upgraded to do that). 3 sedans, small, medium, large, plus the Enclave is all they need.

[InvictaMan]

Buick planning model expansion

By Drew Johnson

General Motors’ Buick brand has been left to wither on the vine for the past few decades, but the Detroit automaker is planning to give the 101 year old marque new life as it consolidates to just four core brands.

Edited July 7, 2009 by InvictaMan

[Intrepidation]

Link doesn't work.

[InvictaMan]

Link doesn't work.

Just checked it, it does, but thanks.

[Camino LS6]

Wasn't this already posted?

[InvictaMan]

Just checked it, it does, but thanks.

Looks to be much the same info as the Motor Trend article.

[Intrepidation]

Just checked it, it does, but thanks.

It didn't originally, but I saw you editing the post to fix it, so its fine now.

However, since this is basically the same as the MT article, it's going to be merged with the MT thread.

[CSpec]

"Super Epsilon" huh? I thought the current LWB Ep would be long enough, given CAFE and downsizing and all that.

[Paolino]

Super epsilon is probably just long wheel base. They don't need 2 long wheel base sedans and a short wheelbase epsilon sedan. GM's product planning is god awful.

"appearing for '12 on a new, large "Super" Epsilon front-wheel-drive platform GM Australia is developing to complement its heavy, rear-drive Zeta architecture. Australian Epsilon is wider and longer than the Epsilon II platform."

It's not even done being developed--so how could this be the LWB Epsilon?

[cire]

Super epsilon is probably just long wheel base. They don't need 2 long wheel base sedans and a short wheelbase epsilon sedan. GM's product planning is god awful. Buick should have a Delta II sedan that shares no body panels with the Cruze, priced $23-29,000. Regal as the midsize at $27-33,000 and LaCrosse is a full size car, that should be $31-40k (obviously the 2010 LaCrosse would need upgraded to do that). 3 sedans, small, medium, large, plus the Enclave is all they need.

I do agree with your view on Buick's sedan lineup, except the 2010 LaCrosse needs to be priced and equipped to start a few thousand dollars higher ($34,000 - $40,000). However, I do think the brand needs more products than just these three sedans and the Enclave. Buick has a lot of potential, if GM would properly tap into it. The three sedans you mentioned are enough, but there are other categories that Buick could competently handle.

[Camino LS6]

Does anyone actually know WTF Buick is anymore?

It's as clear as mud from where I sit.

[Robert Hall]

Does anyone actually know WTF Buick is anymore?

It's as clear as mud from where I sit.

It's the GM car and CUV brand that fits between Chevy and Cadillac. The middle brand.

i.e. Pontiac+Saturn+ old Buick = new Buick?

[InvictaMan]

These articles make no mention of the BUE, which has been discussed in several articles and was confirmed to me by a couple Buick sales managers. I think this model will be crucial to Buick. An MPV model like the Business Concept will be a unique offering as well for this target. All of this sounds like an amalgamation of several articles that have been floating around lately, and blatantly steps into speculation at the end. Maybe an attempt to keep the momentum going for the LaX intro, but certainly good news for those of us who appreciate the brand's revival.

How many times must the Buick placeholder be hashed.

Chevy= Economical, everyone's cars, trucks, SUVs, CUVs

Buick/GMC= Luxury cars, trucks, SUVs, CUVs

Cadillac= Ultra-Luxury cars, SUVs, CUVs, and I guess still trucks since Hummer is gone.

GM has filled that mid spot with four divisions in the past, really five because Saab was never ultra-luxury. Now that they have trimmed to two it would seem that Buick's place in the family would be even clearer. Buick is the founding brand for GM, seems like true GM enthusiasts would get behind it instead of dissect it and badger it when it finally gets its chance to regain the stature it deserves. GM is banking heavily on this historic brand, because it will eventually fill a lot of shoes. The old arguments about Buick don't flush anymore, Buick is putting out cars that are at Cadillac level now. Maybe we should be bitching about how Cadillac is not living up to its expectations.

Edited July 8, 2009 by InvictaMan

[loki]

well.. it will be lots better when the lucerne gets killed or radically overhauled. then it will truly stand out from the other brands... (if not for the 2.4L in the 2010 laX)

[regfootball]

hilarious that buick is adding models when thy are probably adding as many models as pontiac had cancelled. pontiac buyers would have preferred all these new models say pontiac on them.

[cire]

Does anyone actually know WTF Buick is anymore?

It's as clear as mud from where I sit.

What it is right now is the remains of a mismanaged brand with the potential to be something extraordinary if GM would realize and exploit its potential. All the signs that I see at the moment seem to indicate that the "New GM" doesn't know how to manage it any better than the "Old GM".

The 2010 LaCrosse is a wonderful new product that is saddled with a lame name and a stripped down base version that undermines the premium potential of the brand. GM seems content to allow Buick to become a glitzier version of Chevrolet than to allow the brand to reach its true premium potential. The 2010 LaCrosse should be rechristened "LeSabre" for the North American market and be equipped and priced to split the difference between the Acura TL and Lincoln MKS. It should cover the $37,000 to $43,000 price range (which is a little higher than I previously posted).

The Insignia based Regal should have been introduced before the LeSabre as a replacement for the hopelessly outclassed and outdated W-body LaCrosse. The LeSabre could then have been launched as the replacement for the forgetable Lucerne. The Regal should be equipped and priced to split the difference between the Acura TSX and the Lincoln MKZ in the $31,000 to $37,000 price range.

An Astra based Centieme sedan and sports tourer (5-door) should then be priced and equipped to compete with the Audi A3 and Volvo S40, but undercut them in price by staying in the $25,000 to $31,000 price range.

Instead of a giving the brand a profit generating setup like the one I submitted above, GM would rather give Buick a new LaCrosse with a sub-$28,000 stripped down base model that dilutes the brand's image and allows it to hover slightly above Chevrolet. If GM continues with this type of strategy for Buick, then the brand will never be able to provide any of the potential opportunities it possesses for GM.

[cire]

These articles make no mention of the BUE, which has been discussed in several articles and was confirmed to me by a couple Buick sales managers. I think this model will be crucial to Buick. An MPV model like the Business Concept will be a unique offering as well for this target. All of this sounds like an amalgamation of several articles that have been floating around lately, and blatantly steps into speculation at the end. Maybe an attempt to keep the momentum going for the LaX intro, but certainly good news for those of us who appreciate the brand's revival.

How many times must the Buick placeholder be hashed.

Chevy= Economical, everyone's cars, trucks, SUVs, CUVs

Buick/GMC= Luxury cars, trucks, SUVs, CUVs

Cadillac= Ultra-Luxury cars, SUVs, CUVs, and I guess still trucks since Hummer is gone.

GM has filled that mid spot with four divisions in the past, really five because Saab was never ultra-luxury. Now that they have trimmed to two it would seem that Buick's place in the family would be even clearer. Buick is the founding brand for GM, seems like true GM enthusiasts would get behind it instead of dissect it and badger it when it finally gets its chance to regain the stature it deserves. GM is banking heavily on this historic brand, because it will eventually fill a lot of shoes. The old arguments about Buick don't flush anymore, Buick is putting out cars that are at Cadillac level now. Maybe we should be bitching about how Cadillac is not living up to its expectations.

I agree except that I think GM is undermining the brand's image and perception as a premium brand by giving it stripped down base models. No Buick product should ever come equipped without alloy wheels and foglights as standard equipment. The new LaCrosse (which should have been named something else for North America) should base in the mid to upper $30,000 range.

I share your passion for the Buick brand, but I still don't think GM "gets it" or knows how to exploit the brand so that it can be relevant and successful as well as generate profits for the corporation. I share the same opinion about Cadillac; another potential goldmine for GM that gets derailed and undermined by GM's mismanagement and overall incompetence.

Edited July 8, 2009 by cire

[smk4565]

Buick doesn't have enough brand image to sell luxury cars, and the 2010 LaCrosse isn't nearly nice enough to sell in the high 30s. It would need the CTS interior or better to get mid to high $30s because it's front drive and can't offer any performance advantage over a Camry/Accord/Malibu. Buick needs to focus on selling dressed up Chevys for $25-35k, although a new Impala on Epsilon2 could easily replace the 2010 LaCrosse and then Buick isn't really needed. The Avalon/Azera/Lucerne segment is rapidly dying, no one wants big front drivers.

Perhaps the best thing would be for Buick to make 3 sedans (small, medium, large) all priced the same at $27-35k. Then the old geezers that want their slush mobile are happy, and the younger people that want a lot of luxury in a small package have something also. But GM would never put all the available equipment on a LaCrosse CXS into a Delta II Buick.

[z28luvr01]

Are you serious? You're asking for Buick to be what it was in 1992. I'd rather every Buick dealership simultaneously explode.

Buick's biggest problem, from the product end of things, is Caddy's apparent move downscale. Since Caddy has switched back to making FWD cars - "for better fuel economy" - there will inevitably be some overlap with Buick.

[Camino LS6]

OK, let me ask the question in a different way.

What makes a given car a Buick?

What is compelling about the brand?

What is unique, or at least, interesting?

In short, why a Buick?

[pow]

Buick ain't luxury. Cadillac is luxury. There's no room for two luxury brands within GM.

Buick should be more premium, more developed versions of Chevy, or in other words, Opel. Buick's product plans seem clear from spy photos, and it's Astra, Insignia, and Antara.

Personally, I'm a fan of naming the Astra "Invicta", to go with "Insignia." The Antara (i.e., VUE Hybrid) can be "Electra", to go with "Enclave." All four models would come loaded with few options, like Acura does with their cars. The LaCrosse will remain the old geezer's Buick to replace the Lucerne.

[pow]

OK, let me ask the question in a different way.

What makes a given car a Buick?

What is compelling about the brand?

What is unique, or at least, interesting?

In short, why a Buick?

This isn't keeping with tradition, but IMO Buick can reinvent itself as a distinct brand within the GM family by offering: dynamic design, engaging performance, more exclusivity and higher quality than the common Chevrolet or Toyota. I'm not really into sweepspears, ventiports, or chrome, but personally I find Buick having the most potential for appeal, since I'm not a fan of the new Daewoolets and Saturn and Pontiac are gone.

Here's are some Buicks I would be interested in...

Buick Invicta 1.4T - $19K, fully loaded

Buick Invicta 2.0T - $22K, fully loaded

Buick Insignia 2.0T - $27K, fully-loaded

Pretty much the Acura model - no base models to cheapen their image, but not extravagant like Caddy.

[z28luvr01]

OK, let me ask the question in a different way.

What makes a given car a Buick?

What is compelling about the brand?

What is unique, or at least, interesting?

In short, why a Buick?

Exterior and interior styling that's bold and eye catching, but warmer and more sensuous than, say, Cadillac or BMW.

Unrivaled comfort in the cabin

Precision and refinement

Plenty of power without being billed as a "performance" car

Handling that's crisp but still plays second fiddle to comfort in ads

Basically, I see Buick as GM's "sleeper" division. The new LaCrosse, Riviera concept, the Enclave, and the Velite (which is still a good looking car six years later) represent everything Buick needs to be. I'm not at all a fan of GM abandoning distinctly Buick designs in favor of rebadged Opels.

[Camino LS6]

Exterior and interior styling that's bold and eye catching, but warmer and more sensuous than, say, Cadillac or BMW.

Unrivaled comfort in the cabin

Precision and refinement

Plenty of power without being billed as a "performance" car

Handling that's crisp but still plays second fiddle to comfort in ads

Basically, I see Buick as GM's "sleeper" division

OK.

Now do you see any of that "in the steel" at this point?

[z28luvr01]

See my above post. You replied while I was adding an extra comment that I think answers your question.

[Camino LS6]

Fair enough.

I will say that without something like the Riviera (or even better, the Velite) , I just don't see much there.

EDIT: I do, however, remember the LaCrosse concept! Such identity and presence!

Not for me maybe, but so interesting and individual, creative and innovative... so Buick that I will always remember seeing it in person.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Camino LS6

[Camino LS6]

By CaminoLS6

By CaminoLS6

[Robert Hall]

That's one of my favorite GM concepts of the last decade or so...great dramatic shape.

[regfootball]

OK.

Now do you see any of that "in the steel" at this point?

maybe be 2014

buick better change their image fast. they would hate to having to give away free life insurance policies and hearing aid consults with each purchase, just to move the metal.

Edited July 8, 2009 by regfootball

[regfootball]

OK, let me ask the question in a different way.

What makes a given car a Buick?

What is compelling about the brand?

What is unique, or at least, interesting?

In short, why a Buick?

G8 is pretty compelling.

Buick has potential if they keep pricing reasonable and offer interior quality and offer the opel products on the bottom end of its lineup. aside from that, there is not much hope.

[Camino LS6]

By CaminoLS6

By CaminoLS6

By CaminoLS6

[cire]

Buick doesn't have enough brand image to sell luxury cars, and the 2010 LaCrosse isn't nearly nice enough to sell in the high 30s. It would need the CTS interior or better to get mid to high $30s because it's front drive and can't offer any performance advantage over a Camry/Accord/Malibu. Buick needs to focus on selling dressed up Chevys for $25-35k, although a new Impala on Epsilon2 could easily replace the 2010 LaCrosse and then Buick isn't really needed. The Avalon/Azera/Lucerne segment is rapidly dying, no one wants big front drivers.

Sounds eerily similar to Acura or Lincoln to me. There's no reason for these 2 brands to exist either based on what you submitted above. Basically, an Acura is just a dressed up FWD Honda and a Lincoln is just a dressed up FWD Ford.

Buick is GM's Acura/Lincoln and its products should be equipped and priced to reflect this position.

[hyperv6]

The Lacrosse concept by the time it made it to production would have never looked like the concept.

The head lights are too low, the side impact score would have been -4 stars with the hard top and suicide doors. the rear impact would have never made it with the set up they had and the quarter panels wouls have never made it though a winter with them sticking out so far and stones hitting them. Just look at any HHR with no running boards.

In fact if that car had made production it woul have turned out much like the 2010 Lacrosse. note the side spear and grill are similar.

Damatic is ok but you have to keep it real and not let it get too weird.

Just because you can draw it does not mean they can build it.

[Camino LS6]

The Lacrosse concept by the time it made it to production would have never looked like the concept.

The head lights are too low, the side impact score would have been -4 stars with the hard top and suicide doors. the rear impact would have never made it with the set up they had and the quarter panels wouls have never made it though a winter with them sticking out so far and stones hitting them. Just look at any HHR with no running boards.

In fact if that car had made production it woul have turned out much like the 2010 Lacrosse. note the side spear and grill are similar.

Damatic is ok but you have to keep it real and not let it get too weird.

Just because you can draw it does not mean they can build it.

There's that "we can't" outlook again!

Seriously though, not an ounce of style or inspiration made it from showcar to the production car of the same name - they have nothing in common.

Yes the concept was a full-on showcar, but it offered some innovative thinking and gorgeous styling: none of which has showed up at Buick in the nine years since it debuted.

Not even the spirit was translated into a showroom version.

[z28luvr01]

I see what you're saying, Camino. I had long forgotten the LaX concept, though I think the Riviera concept captures a lot of the essence of the LaX in a more production-ready design.

The LaX concept is transverse FWD, right? If so, it's got the proportions of a RWD car, so that in itself would be a thing to mimic on a production Buick.

[Camino LS6]

I see what you're saying, Camino. I had long forgotten the LaX concept, though I think the Riviera concept captures a lot of the essence of the LaX in a more production-ready design.

The LaX concept is transverse FWD, right? If so, it's got the proportions of a RWD car, so that in itself would be a thing to mimic on a production Buick.

Yup!

Transverse Northstar V8, if I recall correctly.

The use of the transforming rear section added huge utility to the design as well.

And when was the last time you heard me gushing over the design proportions of a FWD?

This car had elegance and class, and that's what I think Buick must be.

[pow]

I think I threw up in my mouth a bit...

[Intrepidation]

Pass.

[Camino LS6]

I think I threw up in my mouth a bit...

I'm willing to bet that you never saw this car in person - and that you'd change your tune if you had.

[gm4life]

hilarious that buick is adding models when thy are probably adding as many models as pontiac had cancelled. pontiac buyers would have preferred all these new models say pontiac on them.

You damn right and we would have actually bought 'em.

[hyperv6]

There's that "we can't" outlook again!

Seriously though, not an ounce of style or inspiration made it from showcar to the production car of the same name - they have nothing in common.

Yes the concept was a full-on showcar, but it offered some innovative thinking and gorgeous styling: none of which has showed up at Buick in the nine years since it debuted.

Not even the spirit was translated into a showroom version.

The last Riv carried some of this theme of a long sweeping car. The new Lacrosse has the side sweep and curved hood line. The port holes came back with this car for what they are worth. The grill theme was carried to several models witht he waterfall theme. The GMC SUV has the opening back. Want me to go on?

It is time to be realistic. As you have stated this is a show car and it is time to be realistic. Many of the features would not pass goverment regs, would add a great amount of weight or not survive in the real world.

This was on of the last cars GM did before Lutz and was one of the last that was not even close to being build able as a real world car. You know as I do that even some of the show cars built into production cars like the SSR are hampered by many things a good production car should never have.

It is not a idea of can't but more of a be realistic.

Besides other than the Lucerne and the new Lacrosse that is coming out in those 9 years how many new cars has Buick had? You can't count SUV's, Crossovers, or minivans. I think that is why there are severa themes form this car being used on the new Lacrosse such as the hood line and sweep spear.

I have seen this car in Detroit and as a show car it is neat but if it were a real world car it would be a little odd. Just as if they had built the Pontiac Banshee as a real world car. It too was a neat show car but would have been a little to buck rogers for the road.

Show cars are like a tarted up Julia Roberts whore in a movie. They may look good on film but nothing like the crack whores you see on Cop's. Reality suck so get used to it.

Edited July 10, 2009 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

No.

[hyperv6]

No.

You are not going to get all weird on B pillars too are you? LOL!

You seem a little stressed I think you should go drive a new Camaro SS!

[Camino LS6]

You are not going to get all weird on B pillars too are you? LOL!

You seem a little stressed I think you should go drive a new Camaro SS!

I should go drive a new Camaro SS again... just because.

But the fact remains that given the posibilities exemplified by the showcar, Buick has come up very short in the desireability of production sedans.

They can, should, and must, do better.

[balthazar]

My 2 cents: I never cared for the concept Lacrosse overall. The hardtop body, the grille/emblem up front, the utility out back are VG.... but the whole car has an unhappy 'pinch' in the middle that doesn't work for me, and it's too rounded off; nose & tail. In the same vein, I did not care for the Riviera concept at all, and there were details on the Velite that bugged me too. I'm a concept guy, I love the possibilites of restraint-free design.... and Buick has done dozens that fit this definition over the years.... but these are not the direction I would choose to point Buick in.

Edited July 10, 2009 by balthazar

[Z-06]

Show cars are like a tarted up Julia Roberts whore in a movie. They may look good on film but nothing like the crack whores you see on Cop's. Reality suck so get used to it.

How different was the production Camaro from the concept? A lot?

It looked like Julia Roberts on the Show floor and also likes one on pavement floor. Same goes to Enclave.

The apologetic and excuse finding mentality of GM should stop. Accept screwups and move on to correct mistakes rather than repeating them and finding more excuses.

[hyperv6]

How different was the production Camaro from the concept? A lot?

It looked like Julia Roberts on the Show floor and also likes one on pavement floor. Same goes to Enclave.

The apologetic and excuse finding mentality of GM should stop. Accept screwups and move on to correct mistakes rather than repeating them and finding more excuses.

Sorry I was speaking in the past as with this Buick and other GM show cars. Today since Lutz's arrival most of the show cars that we see at the shows are pretty much as we see them in production.

The acceptions being rare like the Volt where they were not full clear on where they were going with this car at the time it was shown. Reality hit and changes had to be made to make it work in a real world.

The fact is styling is important to a point but quality, price and value are just as if not more important. A car today does not need to be over the top in styling to be a sales hit. Just look at your best sellers. Camry and Accord are not what I would term as a works of art and sell in great numbers.

People today treat cars as appliances and as long as they do not have to visit the servvice department and can afford the payments while not being hidious they are happy. Just look at some of the trolls that are imported by Kia and the like.

To most car owners a nicely styled car with inoffensive styling that appeals to a wide group of people is what the target needs to be. Styling in a mass produced car need to be appealing to many and not polarizing. This true more so in the sedan market where a coupe market is more intune with the emotional side of the buyer.

A Camaro is more a car someone is willing to take styling over back seat room or usable trunk space. THis is a car that people buy more for image.

Edited July 10, 2009 by hyperv6

[!!!TED!!!]

Iv skimmed this thread, and just wanted to throw it out there that the Regal is comming very soon.

If you watch the Buick LaCrosse E-vent, they show an extended version of the new campaign and commercial, which shows the Regal!

go to 2:56-3:57 for the commercial

Regal can be seen at 3:20, 3:28-3:31