Do you think I hate Pontiac?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Nothing could be farther from the truth, Yeah I have my issues with Holden, but they are more in working with their personnel there ...

I recently sent a e-mail complaining to Troy Clark about Pontiac being shut down, here is his response. I thought it might give some of you insight as to why Pontiac is being shut down. Now remember the only cars I have bought for my personal cars have been Pontiacs since I was a teenager, 27 in all. But I told Troy that is about to change to BMW, mainly because they are the closest thing to Pontiac at the moment for me, and not because I work there.

I will admit now, that I suggested that GMC should have been shut down. Sorry Roger!

Here is Troy's response to me (I left the misspellings as they are) ...

Dear Borger,

Despite your disappointment, thanks for the email. No one is more heart broken over the loss of Pontiac than I am. My Dad worked at Pontiac as an hourly employee. He uprooted our family from the south and moved us to where we could have a better life and his work at PMD provided that. I started at PMD as well. I know the history of the brand and the product. I still consider myself some what of an expert on Pontiac V8 engines. I own several vintage Pontiacs. The sad fact is that Pontiacs only sell in company towns. They cost more than Chevys to make, yet you can't get more price for them. We have lost money for the better part of the last decade. As we looked to put together the new GM, we needed to return to profitability. GMC is an incrediblly profitable brand. For too many years we have been victims of our own nostalgia while brands from other countries with no history win in the market place. I go to the dream cruise every year. I have never seen that early 70 Camry all tricked up. I have not seen any BMWs either. We have created some good memories and classic cars. Perhaps the future won't allow us to sustain them. But I think its a shame that all that history and all those memories are to be held against us and your loyalty so quickly transfered to a brand with no heritage. I would like you to remain a GM customer. I would encourage you to look at the new Camaro or some of the other products we have coming. I think we deserve some credit for making the tough decisions and leading the sacrifice to keep the company alive that had the potential to create Pontiac and will transfer that driving excitement into its other brands. At the end of the day, its your choice. I don't claim to be right and I won't say you're wrong but I think as the company that tried valiantly to keep the Pontiac brand alive in the face of falling sales and lagging profits, we deserve another look.

Sincerely,

Troy Clarke

He signed it at the end Troy, but i have no way of transferring that here at the moment.

Edit: Screen cap of email added.

[Justin Bimmer]

I think there are very valid points in there. The bottom line was what GM felt they could make the most money with NOW. That is always going to be the problem with corporate America. They are too interested in the profits now stock price up and not enough in the long term viability mode.

[Robert Hall]

27 Pontiacs??? in what--25 years at most? Wow...you must have changed cars often..

[balthazar]

>>"I thought it might give some of you insight as to why Pontiac is being shut down."<<

Sorry; his answer doesn't say anything that wasn't already widely known.

What would be insightful is the reason why the 'niche plan' was abandoned, and so quickly....

tho, yup; most of us know the reason here, too.

Hopefully his answer provided some insight to you RE the reason GMC is a core brand....

Edited June 30, 2009 by balthazar

[Oracle of Delphi]

>>"I thought it might give some of you insight as to why Pontiac is being shut down."<<

Sorry; his answer doesn't say anything that wasn't already widely known.

What would be insightful is the reason why the 'niche plan' was abandoned, and so quickly....

tho, yup; most of us know the reason here, too.

Hopefully his answer provided some insight to you RE the reason GMC is a core brand....

You always have to be a curmudgeon don't you? I know very well why GMC was kept, but someone with balls at GM, needs to either move all the sheeple to GMC or Chevrolet, I don't care which stays, but one should die in favor of the other. Perhaps the new Government owners will force their hand on that issue ...

[balthazar]

>>"You always have to be a curmudgeon don't you?"<<

Only when real answers are replaced with marshmellow fluff. :rotflmao:

>>"I know very well why GMC was kept..."<<

Then why the fallacy of suggesting otherwise, especially to a former collegue?

Wouldn't doing so undermine one's credibility?

>>"Perhaps the new Government owners will force their hand on that issue..."<<

Perhaps- look what they did for Pontiac! :rotflmao:

Edited June 30, 2009 by balthazar

[mustang84]

The sad fact is that Pontiacs only sell in company towns.

This is complete and utter bull. Three of my friends bought Pontiacs recently, two G6's and a new Grand Prix. All of them are between 24 and 26 years old. Every day on my commute to work I pass dozens of late model Pontiacs, especially G6's and Grand Prixs...all driven by a younger crowd. The Pontiac brand still resonated in the Midwest and Canada, but GM simply gave up on its third best-selling nameplate. Maybe it didn't make as much money as GMC or Chevy, but they had young customers within the GM fold who will now probably shop elsewhere because once again GM petered out and abandoned another segment of its lineup.

Edited June 30, 2009 by mustang84

[daves87rs]

This is complete and utter bull. Three of my friends bought Pontiacs recently, two G6's and a new Grand Prix. All of them are between 24 and 26 years old. Every day on my commute to work I pass dozens of late model Pontiacs, especially G6's and Grand Prixs...all driven by a younger crowd. The Pontiac brand still resonated in the Midwest and Canada, but GM simply gave up on its third best-selling nameplate. Maybe it didn't make as much money as GMC or Chevy, but they had young customers within the GM fold who will now probably shop elsewhere because once again GM petered out and abandoned another segment of its lineup.

Nope. Heck, G6s are down here...and they are made here! (You should see all the Foci!) Nobody cares.....they are just another badge with a good disount. That's pretty much the reason why your friends are driving them now. The same reason I see a bunch of Cavaliers and Cobalts around the local campus...

That's abut the only reason I would get one....as the Mailbu is a much better value and better done. That's another good reason why G6s are disappearing around here...

I don't want to sound mean spirted, but you get the idea.....

[gm4life]

This is complete and utter bull. Three of my friends bought Pontiacs recently, two G6's and a new Grand Prix. All of them are between 24 and 26 years old. Every day on my commute to work I pass dozens of late model Pontiacs, especially G6's and Grand Prixs...all driven by a younger crowd. The Pontiac brand still resonated in the Midwest and Canada, but GM simply gave up on its third best-selling nameplate. Maybe it didn't make as much money as GMC or Chevy, but they had young customers within the GM fold who will now probably shop elsewhere because once again GM petered out and abandoned another segment of its lineup.

I could not agree more. Pontiac is very strong in Iowa especially smaller more rural area's. Pontiac is really strong in Canada maybe more so than Chevy. Lots of younger people do buy Pontiac's and yes I am sure some are slightly used fleet cars, point being if someone still selected a Pontiac over a Chevy or even a Toyota they had the choice to do so. Cars like the G8 and GTO did well from my understanding on the West Coast, so I really think it was a silly choice. The brand could have been so great, but they let it die.

[regfootball]

had they put out a proper g6, and not botched the grand prix........

it was a case of half assed effort at the end. the g6 had a miserable interior with a terrible center stack and terrible steering wheel. in 2009.5 they fix all that stuff and kill the car. the DOHC v6 which could have been a staple product was only in the high price cars where a 16 thousand dollar hyundai sonata could be purchased with a competitive v6.

the grand prix had an equally miserable interior, pancake roof, bad space utilization, and honestly was not that great of a drive.

as recent as the late 90's everyone and their dog especially the youths were still buying pontiacs. the bonneville, grand prix, grand am, and sunfire all used to be in the top 20 in sales.

pontiac only sold at the price points they did because the cars were cheaply appointed and young buyers don't have lexus money. that still doesn't mean they will buy a chevy, and it certainly does not mean they will buy a higher priced buick that they think their dead grandparents would only buy.

GM as a whole suffers from terrible pricing and option structures, Pontiac and Buick were the worst. Until GM figures out how to equip and price and market their &#036;h&#33;, they still won't catch the youth crowd that is now realizing cars like KIAs come standard with things they want like USB ports and bluetooth. things that GM holds you hostage on option packages to get.

I don't know this for fact, but if GM could not figure out how to make profit on say 1 million annual pontiac cars, and to lose that volume, that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

That market is there, and its sad to see even mitsubishi continue on (or Dodge for that matter) while Pontiac gets the axe.

This ranks up there with lost markets like the ford ranger (not ever updating it).

Edited June 30, 2009 by regfootball

[gm4life]

Nothing could be farther from the truth, Yeah I have my issues with Holden, but they are more in working with their personnel there ...

I recently sent a e-mail complaining to Troy Clark about Pontiac being shut down, here is his response. I thought it might give some of you insight as to why Pontiac is being shut down. Now remember the only cars I have bought for my personal cars have been Pontiacs since I was a teenager, 27 in all. But I told Troy that is about to change to BMW, mainly because they are the closest thing to Pontiac at the moment for me, and not because I work there.

I will admit now, that I suggested that GMC should have been shut down. Sorry Roger!

Here is Troy's response to me (I left the misspellings as they are) ...

Dear Borger,

Despite your disappointment, thanks for the email. No one is more heart broken over the loss of Pontiac than I am. My Dad worked at Pontiac as an hourly employee. He uprooted our family from the south and moved us to where we could have a better life and his work at PMD provided that. I started at PMD as well. I know the history of the brand and the product. I still consider myself some what of an expert on Pontiac V8 engines. I own several vintage Pontiacs. The sad fact is that Pontiacs only sell in company towns. They cost more than Chevys to make, yet you can't get more price for them. We have lost money for the better part of the last decade. As we looked to put together the new GM, we needed to return to profitability. GMC is an incrediblly profitable brand. For too many years we have been victims of our own nostalgia while brands from other countries with no history win in the market place. I go to the dream cruise every year. I have never seen that early 70 Camry all tricked up. I have not seen any BMWs either. We have created some good memories and classic cars. Perhaps the future won't allow us to sustain them. But I think its a shame that all that history and all those memories are to be held against us and your loyalty so quickly transfered to a brand with no heritage. I would like you to remain a GM customer. I would encourage you to look at the new Camaro or some of the other products we have coming. I think we deserve some credit for making the tough decisions and leading the sacrifice to keep the company alive that had the potential to create Pontiac and will transfer that driving excitement into its other brands. At the end of the day, its your choice. I don't claim to be right and I won't say you're wrong but I think as the company that tried valiantly to keep the Pontiac brand alive in the face of falling sales and lagging profits, we deserve another look.

Sincerely,

Troy Clarke

He signed it at the end Troy, but i have no way of transferring that here at the moment.

Edit: Screen cap of email added.

Thanks PCS I never doubted you loved Pontiac, and I for one wish to thank you for your loyal service to GM. I also will be 100 percent honest I am green with envy with the four Pontiac's you own. I would love to own a G8 GXP like yours but sadly it will never happen. (Can we see a few photos of it maybe?) Thanks again for sharing and for your service at GM.

Edited June 30, 2009 by gm4life

[§carlet §wordfish]

I knew you liked Pontiac as a brand. The thing that always puzzled me is why you have so much hatred for Holden.

[daves87rs]

Thanks PCS I never doubted you loved Pontiac, and I for one wish to thank you for your loyal service to GM. I also will be 100 percent honest I am green with envy with the four Pontiac's you own. I would love to own a G8 GXP like yours but sadly it will never happen. (Can we see a few photos of it maybe?) Thanks again for sharing and for your service at GM.

+1

I never doubted that you even really hated Holden (Ok, maybe a tiny bit)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You always have to be a curmudgeon don't you? I know very well why GMC was kept, but someone with balls at GM, needs to either move all the sheeple to GMC or Chevrolet, I don't care which stays, but one should die in favor of the other. Perhaps the new Government owners will force their hand on that issue ...

Why?

Do you actually have a good business reason or is it just your wish?

We ALL knew that 1) Pontiac would die and 2) WHY Pontiac would die. Even if we didn't want to admit it. (I never did, because I wanted to keep the faith until it was pointless)

However, there is no good reason to kill GMC. In fact, killing GMC would go directly against what "new GM" is supposed to do. That being, making a profit and being able to be itself again.

I still hold out hope for Pontiac... I know that the dealers came to GM with a second offer for the division. I'm not sure that selling it to dealers is the best thing to do for the division. But I do know that, for some reason, GM seems really reluctant to sell. And that makes me at least a little hopeful.

PCS,

You and I have a lot in common. We BOTH loved Pontiac for what is was and what it could be again, NOT what it has become. We just chose to express ourselves in different ways.

Edited June 30, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

had they put out a proper g6, and not botched the grand prix........

it was a case of half assed effort at the end. the g6 had a miserable interior with a terrible center stack and terrible steering wheel. in 2009.5 they fix all that stuff and kill the car. the DOHC v6 which could have been a staple product was only in the high price cars where a 16 thousand dollar hyundai sonata could be purchased with a competitive v6.

the grand prix had an equally miserable interior, pancake roof, bad space utilization, and honestly was not that great of a drive.

as recent as the late 90's everyone and their dog especially the youths were still buying pontiacs. the bonneville, grand prix, grand am, and sunfire all used to be in the top 20 in sales.

pontiac only sold at the price points they did because the cars were cheaply appointed and young buyers don't have lexus money. that still doesn't mean they will buy a chevy, and it certainly does not mean they will buy a higher priced buick that they think their dead grandparents would only buy.

GM as a whole suffers from terrible pricing and option structures, Pontiac and Buick were the worst. Until GM figures out how to equip and price and market their &#036;h&#33;, they still won't catch the youth crowd that is now realizing cars like KIAs come standard with things they want like USB ports and bluetooth. things that GM holds you hostage on option packages to get.

I don't know this for fact, but if GM could not figure out how to make profit on say 1 million annual pontiac cars, and to lose that volume, that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

That market is there, and its sad to see even mitsubishi continue on (or Dodge for that matter) while Pontiac gets the axe.

This ranks up there with lost markets like the ford ranger (not ever updating it).

Excellent post!

And I agree 100%.

It's hard to see where GM was trying to take Pontiac (If it had any direction at all)

1) They killed the halo car, Firebird/Trans Am with no replacement (And all of this at a supposed "performance" division)

2) Then, along comes the SEVERELY botched new GP. Not only is it cheaper made and uglier than the VERY popular previous generation. It also comes with less options and without a coupe version. ONE VOLUME CAR: DEAD

3) Then we get the G6 which supposedly replaces the Grand Am. Except, it's more expensive (for the same level of car) cheaper built (as is the trend with new Pontiacs) and actually sizes and competes with Pontiacs other supposed volume car, the GP. On top of all of this, it introduces a new, meaningless name and looks like it came straight out of 1992. SECOND VOLUME CAR: DEAD

4) Then the Bonneville, which already received it's awkward replacement, is allowed to wilt and die on the vine while you can buy a same size GP for less. The first GXP (a beautiful show car) hits the roads with a motor that seems to be an afterthought and a through cheapening of all the aesthetic bits that made it a cool package in the first place.

5) After the G6 sedan has suffered for a while, GM *FINALLY* rolls out the coupe and convertible that should've been there from the start. With little to NO marketing.

6) As the Aztek, what many might charge as the beginning of the last dying breath exits, we get a better looking Equinox clone, to ease the pain.

7) GM then decides that Pontiac, it's brand that supposedly had the youngest demographics at the time, DOESN'T NEED AN ENTRY CAR (!!) Then, once the hangover hits, whoever is in charge decides that a clone of the Cobalt will do just fine. Except, it can have no performance hardware (imagine that; from the "performance division") and must be the least practical model (coupe) Because all of the kiddies parents are going to go for that.

8] At the same time, GM decides that Pontiac actually was a bit TOO successful with the first ever Vibe. So they must de-content it and dumb down the styling.

Need I even mention the foray into G3dom?

What's sad is, the WHOLE time we ALL knew what Pontiac could be and needed to be. We ALL knew about the original GXP show cars... We all knew about the program that the G6 was *supposed* to be (turbos, manuals and all)... We ALL knew what Zeta was supposed to bring (GP & GTO) and what ALPHA had promised (G6 and possible Firebird replacement)... And we all knew that Pontiac COULD BE that again, with very little effort. The Solstice G8, G8 GXP and G8 ST reminded us everyday.

Edited June 30, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Sixty8panther]

PCS:

You, unlike true AUTOMOTIVE enthusiasts, put your personal agenda,

vandettas & personality conflicts AHEAD of your LOVE of GM/Ponitac.

I love BMW and have wanted for years to own one. Julie's fascination

with the brand gave me that excuse when I recently bought the 735iL

that suited her need for a large 4-door interior with a spaceous back

seat & easy egress provided by big rear doors in what she called a

"smaller than the Fleetwood Brougham" package. The BMW needs a

lot of small cosmetic fixes as well as a new driveshaft very soon but

over all I love it and so does she.

That being said, how funny that you went to work for BMW, months

after GM (FINALLY!!!) made a production ZETA based sedan for the

USA market a reality under the Pontiac banner, which you bitched

about, had snide remarks about & like a cartoon villain snickered

at its eventual, innevidable death in the shadows. Any TURE

enthusiast living in the USA in the 21st century can agree that our

choices of affordable RWD family sedans are non-existant.

So now we have the (IMHO AWESOME!) G8-GT & it can make the M5

go all frantic trying to out-gun or even keep up with it for half the $

& 20% fewer cylinders, yet you're somehow moving up in the world

by switching over the BMW.

I personally agree that GMC is more redundant in its finest hour than

Pontiac ever was but you're quite the blatant hypocrite to agree w/

that when you revel & bask in the glory of the axe loping off Pontiac's

head & Holden's right arm.

If I was a GM employee in the 1996-2008 era, esp. a high ranking one,

I would have bent over backwards to get my personality conflict out of

the way of ANY earth shattering products like the Zeta Pontiac.

Zeta was (is?) IMHO the last glimmering hope of a possible marriage

between economic prosperity & timeless greatness for GM.

If I had to say here's three examples of a GM that "gets it" I point out:

[1.] CTS lineup: sedan, wagon & coupe

[2.] 5th gen. Camaro "coupe"

[3.] Pontiac G8-GT

The awesome & exotic Corvette as well as the lovable Sky/Solstice are

all well & good but I'm into cars I can enjoy with my wife & 2 daughters.

A two door certainly works as long as the back seat is reasonable and a

2+2 big body-Benz seems to PERFECTLY fit my needs in a Family car

while keeping me happy with its mechanical perfection, rugged, sturdy

& durable chassis & reasonable fuel economy.

The need for reasonable MPGs is the only reason why the '84 M.B. does

not get traded on a (good weather) daily driver 1961 Cadillac 2-door or

4-door hardtop or B-59 Electra 225 hardtop.

Now as far as YOUR reasons for buying certain cars & your reasons for

working at GM and/or BMW or even your intent at accomplishing

nothing positive just to suit your needs versus trying your hardest to

be positive despite personality conflicts.... well it leads me ONCE again

to say you're a fair-weather GM/Automotive Fan.

[daves87rs]

PCS:

You, unlike true AUTOMOTIVE enthusiasts, put your personal agenda,

vandettas & personality conflicts AHEAD of your LOVE of GM/Ponitac.

I love BMW and have wanted for years to own one. Julie's fascination

with the brand gave me that excuse when I recently bought the 735iL

that suited her need for a large 4-door interior with a spaceous back

seat & easy egress provided by big rear doors in what she called a

"smaller than the Fleetwood Brougham" package. The BMW needs a

lot of small cosmetic fixes as well as a new driveshaft very soon but

over all I love it and so does she.

That being said, how funny that you went to work for BMW, months

after GM (FINALLY!!!) made a production ZETA based sedan for the

USA market a reality under the Pontiac banner, which you bitched

about, had snide remarks about & like a cartoon villain snickered

at its eventual, innevidable death in the shadows. Any TURE

enthusiast living in the USA in the 21st century can agree that our

choices of affordable RWD family sedans are non-existant.

So now we have the (IMHO AWESOME!) G8-GT & it can make the M5

go all frantic trying to out-gun or even keep up with it for half the $

& 20% fewer cylinders, yet you're somehow moving up in the world

by switching over the BMW.

I personally agree that GMC is more redundant in its finest hour than

Pontiac ever was but you're quite the blatant hypocrite to agree w/

that when you revel & bask in the glory of the axe loping off Pontiac's

head & Holden's right arm.

If I was a GM employee in the 1996-2008 era, esp. a high ranking one,

I would have bent over backwards to get my personality conflict out of

the way of ANY earth shattering products like the Zeta Pontiac.

Zeta was (is?) IMHO the last glimmering hope of a possible marriage

between economic prosperity & timeless greatness for GM.

If I had to say here's three examples of a GM that "gets it" I point out:

[1.] CTS lineup: sedan, wagon & coupe

[2.] 5th gen. Camaro "coupe"

[3.] Pontiac G8-GT

The awesome & exotic Corvette as well as the lovable Sky/Solstice are

all well & good but I'm into cars I can enjoy with my wife & 2 daughters.

A two door certainly works as long as the back seat is reasonable and a

2+2 big body-Benz seems to PERFECTLY fit my needs in a Family car

while keeping me happy with its mechanical perfection, rugged, sturdy

& durable chassis & reasonable fuel economy.

The need for reasonable MPGs is the only reason why the '84 M.B. does

not get traded on a (good weather) daily driver 1961 Cadillac 2-door or

4-door hardtop or B-59 Electra 225 hardtop.

Now as far as YOUR reasons for buying certain cars & your reasons for

working at GM and/or BMW or even your intent at accomplishing

nothing positive just to suit your needs versus trying your hardest to

be positive despite personality conflicts.... well it leads me ONCE again

to say you're a fair-weather GM/Automotive Fan.

You act like he had Control over product or something...that was something he did not have a choice in...

WTF man?!????

[regfootball]

Excellent post!

And I agree 100%.

It's hard to see where GM was trying to take Pontiac (If it had any direction at all)

1) They killed the halo car, Firebird/Trans Am with no replacement (And all of this at a supposed "performance" division)

2) Then, along comes the SEVERELY botched new GP. Not only is it cheaper made and uglier than the VERY popular previous generation. It also comes with less options and without a coupe version. ONE VOLUME CAR: DEAD

3) Then we get the G6 which supposedly replaces the Grand Am. Except, it's more expensive (for the same level of car) cheaper built (as is the trend with new Pontiacs) and actually sizes and competes with Pontiacs other supposed volume car, the GP. On top of all of this, it introduces a new, meaningless name and looks like it came straight out of 1992. SECOND VOLUME CAR: DEAD

4) Then the Bonneville, which already received it's awkward replacement, is allowed to wilt and die on the vine while you can buy a same size GP for less. The first GXP (a beautiful show car) hits the roads with a motor that seems to be an afterthought and a through cheapening of all the aesthetic bits that made it a cool package in the first place.

5) After the G6 sedan has suffered for a while, GM *FINALLY* rolls out the coupe and convertible that should've been there from the start. With little to NO marketing.

6) As the Aztek, what many might charge as the beginning of the last dying breath exits, we get a better looking Equinox clone, to ease the pain.

7) GM then decides that Pontiac, it's brand that supposedly had the youngest demographics at the time, DOESN'T NEED AN ENTRY CAR (!!) Then, once the hangover hits, whoever is in charge decides that a clone of the Cobalt will do just fine. Except, it can have no performance hardware (imagine that; from the "performance division") and must be the least practical model (coupe) Because all of the kiddies parents are going to go for that.

8] At the same time, GM decides that Pontiac actually was a bit TOO successful with the first ever Vibe. So they must de-content it and dumb down the styling.

Need I even mention the foray into G3dom?

What's sad is, the WHOLE time we ALL knew what Pontiac could be and needed to be. We ALL knew about the original GXP show cars... We all knew about the program that the G6 was *supposed* to be (turbos, manuals and all)... We ALL knew what Zeta was supposed to bring (GP & GTO) and what ALPHA had promised (G6 and possible Firebird replacement)... And we all knew that Pontiac COULD BE that again, with very little effort. The Solstice G8, G8 GXP and G8 ST reminded us everyday.

1-Camaro and Firebird died together so any critique on that move meant the Camaro should be rightly criticized as well, but in fairness it was still an SUV boom and GM did not put money into pony cars then.

2-yes the GP was majorly botched, including no DOHC v6 option and no coupe although i doubt the coupe would have sold much, and especially would not have been needed much if the firebird did still exist.

3-all true, although at the time GM needed to rename the cars because the grand am and grand prix names had such a terrible stigma. hindsight now suggests keeping the grand am name may have been better. i bet most folks would not even know what a g6 is, and i bet virtually no one knew the g6 had a coupe and convertible.

4-bonneville was the executive express. the last bonne lacked rear cabin space as did the aurora and so there was no functional difference to the grand prix mostly. plus all the busy dashboard stuff. basically GM lost the large sedan business to the imports by this point. the bonneville in the 90's was an aspirational car.

5-see 3. g6 coupe is one of the best looking coupes on the market. the convertible is truly innovative. not that anyone knows.

6-lol. no torrent should have ever existed.

7-again, true. why didn't the g5 have the grand am name or something and why didn't it get a standard 2.4 and optional ecotec turbo? why wasnt performance suspension and brakes standard?

8- the vibe was a product of the crossover craze and really it sold to people who pontiac didn't want as customers if they were serious about becoming a perfomance division. but you take every sale you can. the redo IMO was actually a big improvement but its still a toyota in feel.

if the holden torana sedan and the holden g8 coupe concept had taken shape, and been legit along with full product lines sedan and coupe along with a fwd based compact chassis (sorry but the kiddies are buying mostly inexpensive fwd cars these days) pontiac would have been set. the torana and commodore in coupe sedan and wagon. the compact in coupe and hatch and sedan. the solstice. (camino i must say here i think the g8 ST really should have been an ElCamino with a chevy badge).

By now also I think the g8 should have planned interior redo. a torana based g6 should be hitting showrooms soon if things went right. both g8 and g6 line should have opt AWD.

i would have gone back to names, grand am, grand prix, maybe bonneville.

since the past is now the past we just have to hope the camaro lives on long time, and that otherwise chevy picks up the excitement torch. its not looking good though. there is no cruze SS planned. Malibu as nice and pleasant as it is, really holds ZERO enthusiast appeal. We won't see a real Impala unless the g8 morphs into one for a couple years. the solstice is dead, there is no chevy kappa.

I guess to some degree GM ridding themselves of all performance models pretty much forces you to buy a camaro if you want to have fun driving and cannot afford a CTSv.

All of a sudden even that Cobalt SS is looking good, unless you can find a lightly used Malibu Maxx SS.........har har.....when the g8s are all spoken for.

That Fusion Sport starts looking even better, unless you want to be seen in a Charger, and people will be shocked it doesnt have dubs and tinted windows.

Edited July 1, 2009 by regfootball

[A Horse With No Name]

Thanks PCS I never doubted you loved Pontiac, and I for one wish to thank you for your loyal service to GM. I also will be 100 percent honest I am green with envy with the four Pontiac's you own. I would love to own a G8 GXP like yours but sadly it will never happen. (Can we see a few photos of it maybe?) Thanks again for sharing and for your service at GM.

+1

Chris

[hyperv6]

The problems with Pontiac started around 1970 and it has been in a decline for years. Pontiac never got the attrention it needed to grow. This has been the case for years and on many models.

The history behind the Fiero development and death are a good snapshot of what GM did not to Pontiac in general.

I have been a diehard Pontiac owner, racer and national winning Pontiac show car winner. I love Pontiac but I also understand the reality.

The world has changed and companied don't offer lifetime employment, Chistmas parties and retirement plans anymore. The world is now about Profits! The world changed but GM did not.

We were left with what Lutz's called a damaged division and it is true. We had two cars that represented performance and that was it. They had nice but not great cars that could be bought at a Chevy dealer with more performance options but as for Pontiac performace was just a marketing ploy of some grafted on spoilers on some token cars and red dash lights.

The bottom line was yes Pontiac sold cars but only in limited markets and not the global market. Pontiac did not make money as many of the cars were offed on fleet and lease deals. To repair Pontiac it would have taken a large amount of money and tme to revamp 4 different car lines. [The Solstice is due for an update].

I know a few G6 owners and their opinion of there cars are they are ok but they were cheap to buy.

The death of Pontiac is not the goverments fault. I may not like Bama but I can not blame him for this. The niche idea came last year and in my opionion was a way for Pontiac to fade away quietly. I really did not expect Pontiac to be around past 2016 as it was.

The fact still comes back to the fact GM did not kill Pontiac because they wanted to. GM did not kill Pontiac because they were a cash cow. GM did not kill Pontiac because they would be easy or cheap to fix. GM did not kill Pontiac because the rest of the corperation is on stable footing.

The big lie I see here often is Pontiac was profitable. Pontiac was not a global division and was not paying the rent. If they were making profits we would still have them around. GM needs money and anything making money will live on. Lets take a look at what divisions are the most profitable world wide. Hmmm Chevy, Cadillac, Buick, GMC. I see a patttern here.

GM is to the point now where market share means little and profits mean everything. To get their house in order the smaller the better. Less is more in this case.

GM will retain the name and rights to all that is Pontiac. In time if they get back on their feet we could see this name return if the market warrants it. GM has pondered the retun of some other names in the past so while it is not likely the possiblily remains that they ccould revisit this if the need or market is there.

Right now every car company needs to get everything rigt as we have yet to see bad times. It will get worse yet and how worse is yet unknown. The new GM will have an advnantage of little debt at a time others are racking them up. Sales are still tanking and the last thing GM needs are weak divisions they can not afford to repair hanging around their neck like a anchor.

From a nostalgia stand point it hurts to see Pontiac go but from a business stand point it had to be done.

If GM was strong I would have expected them to throw everything they had into Pontiac. But when I look at the needs at Chevy alone to get updated I can not justify spending money on Pontiac when we still have a W body Impala that is how many years old still on the market. I may have good discount sales now but imagine if it were updated and sold at agreater profit how much it would be making in profit.

Lets face it if Chevy was in good profitable shape they would have had the money to fix Pontiac. Yes things are that bad.

[balthazar]

"Global" is not the answer WRT profitability. toyota is global yet could exist on the U.S. market alone- 75% of toyo's profits are made in the U.S. traditionally. They could shutter the rest of the world's dealers and live here comfortably (if well managed).

IMO- GM has too often 'fixed what wasn't broken' - management at GM always changed too fast; DeLorean was PMD GM for only 4 years before being muscled over to Chevy. Far too much product-wise in GM's history can be linked to too-swift management changes.

But the beginning of the end for Pontiac came with the Corporate engine decree ('81 ??). So much had been accomplished on the back of Pontiac Engineering, and when that was cancelled, the soul of the Division gave up. That, and the discontinuance of a Divisional General Manager (with authority) saw the end in the distance. Pontiac did very well in the '70s market, carrying the torch for performance thruout the decade while Chevy became entangled in the bad legacy of the Vega & Chevette, allowing the Corvette out the door with 180 HP. After that, Pontiac's drive was seemingly volume....

[hyperv6]

"Global" is not the answer WRT profitability. toyota is global yet could exist on the U.S. market alone- 75% of toyo's profits are made in the U.S. traditionally. They could shutter the rest of the world's dealers and live here comfortably (if well managed).

IMO- GM has too often 'fixed what wasn't broken' - management at GM always changed too fast; DeLorean was PMD GM for only 4 years before being muscled over to Chevy. Far too much product-wise in GM's history can be linked to too-swift management changes.

But the beginning of the end for Pontiac came with the Corporate engine decree ('81 ??). So much had been accomplished on the back of Pontiac Engineering, and when that was cancelled, the soul of the Division gave up. That, and the discontinuance of a Divisional General Manager (with authority) saw the end in the distance. Pontiac did very well in the '70s market, carrying the torch for performance thruout the decade while Chevy became entangled in the bad legacy of the Vega & Chevette, allowing the Corvette out the door with 180 HP. After that, Pontiac's drive was seemingly volume....

My friend GM started to fail in the 1960's.

As for Delorean he did a lot but it was he and Bunkie who made the real changes as a team.

The truth was in the eyes of most real Pontiac diehards was the death of what they considered the last real Pontiac engine the 400 in 1979. After that they do not accept any of the later cars as real Pontiacs. They even have a hard time accepting the 1984-88 Fiero 4 cylinder as the last real Pontiac only car.

It has gotten better now but it used to be if you showed up in a post 1979 Pontiac at a POCI meet you got the cold shoulder.

After Delorean and Bunkie Pontiac was a solid brand with no weak points. After 1970 Pontiac lost its drive and focus. They had some good models but the entire line was never as stong as it once was.

As for Global things are changing and changing fast. The Americna market is not as strong as it once was and will become weaking in time. To make it companies need product they can sell anywhere in the world. America is fast becoming what England has become a player but not a leader.

[Camino LS6]

Don't you think it is about time to work toward changing that, rather than accepting it like some pre-ordained fate?

The future is ours to lose.

[Camino LS6]

if the holden torana sedan and the holden g8 coupe concept had taken shape, and been legit along with full product lines sedan and coupe along with a fwd based compact chassis (sorry but the kiddies are buying mostly inexpensive fwd cars these days) pontiac would have been set. the torana and commodore in coupe sedan and wagon. the compact in coupe and hatch and sedan. the solstice. (camino i must say here i think the g8 ST really should have been an ElCamino with a chevy badge).

.

This.

Yes, the ST should have been a new El Camino - I accepted it as a Pontiac back when I actually believed that GM really wanted to make Pontiac what it should be.

Obviously, they never intended to do right by that brand.

And now, they foolishly refuse to use an obviously excellent platform out of sheer bind loyalty to false premises they formed about it before it even hit the market.

Ticks me off.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Camino LS6

[balthazar]

>>"My friend GM started to fail in the 1960's."<<

Let's not get into this round-about again. We evaluate PMD's & GM's history

thru different eyes, and we're NOT going to come together on this one.

[A Horse With No Name]

This. Yes, the ST should have been a new El Camino - I accepted it as a Pontiac back when I actually believed that GM really wanted to make Pontiac what it should be. Obviously, they never intended to do right by that brand. And now, they foolishly refuse to use an obviously excellent platform out of sheer bind loyalty to false premises they formed about it before it even hit the market. Ticks me off.

What is bad is that the ST reflected what GM has always been about.

While I still love them, I think they have abandoned the better part of their heritage...

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

...as far as when Gm and Pntiac really started to die, I would say in 74 with the death of the SD 455 and High-Po cars...but that's jsut me.

GM really lost its design mojo after about 72 or so. The later cars are cool, but they are a shadow of their former selves.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

It's been a history of short-lived bright spots in a sea of gloom at GM since '72.

[balthazar]

I can agree with some aspects of PMD 'beginning to lose it' in the '70s, yes, still; Pontiac had a strong image, strong sales, was healthy, and still trying (SD, GA, CA, Firebird/ T/A) thru the '70s, but the cars are just not my cup of ethyl.

[A Horse With No Name]

I can agree with some aspects of PMD 'beginning to lose it' in the '70s, yes, still; Pontiac had a strong image, strong sales, was healthy, and still trying (SD, GA, CA, Firebird/ T/A) thru the '70s, but the cars are just not my cup of ethyl.

My point exactly. And people back then knew it also...people were doing nut and bolt restorations on the earlier stuff and trying to preserve it because they saw the slide of GM and that the good times were never coming back.

I remember in about 1980 a neighbor doing a nut and bolt resto in an aluminium headed (L79 or L89?) SS396 69 Chevelle. He even bought the weatherstripping and body bushings new from GM. One of the nicest resto's I've ever seen. Car was a root beer brown, bench seat 37K original mile car owned by an old man.

Neighbor also owned a real factory 427 69 Camaro, which he changed from hugger orange to black. That car was quite menacing looking with the dog sich hubcaps and the white letter wide oval tires...

The early stuff generates passion, the later stuff generated sales. The W body/90's stuff enabled Toyota and co...

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

...and balthazar, the Pontiacs of the later 70's hold a VERY special place in my automotive soul. But remember, this is the era (late 70's, early 80's) that I started driving, grew up, started dating, went away to college, etc.

I enjoy cars like a late 70's TA because I remember double dating in them...

I enjoy cars like a 67 Grand Prix convertible or a 57 Olds Convertible because they are an utter work of art...

Chris

[hyperv6]

>>"My friend GM started to fail in the 1960's."<<

Let's not get into this round-about again. We evaluate PMD's & GM's history

thru different eyes, and we're NOT going to come together on this one.

You have you're opinion and I have mine. I also am not the only one to have the same opinion.

I do not attack your opinion and respect it even if I do not agree.

<<<<<<<<<<<So if you if you would stop addressing this we will never come together on it again. To agree to disagree goes a long way.>>>>>>>>>>>

Edited July 3, 2009 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

...and balthazar, the Pontiacs of the later 70's hold a VERY special place in my automotive soul. But remember, this is the era (late 70's, early 80's) that I started driving, grew up, started dating, went away to college, etc.

I enjoy cars like a late 70's TA because I remember double dating in them...

I enjoy cars like a 67 Grand Prix convertible or a 57 Olds Convertible because they are an utter work of art...

Chris

The Pontiacs from he 70's were not as good as many think they were. The other cars were just that bad that Pontiac had the better cars but they still were not great cars accept for a few very limited edition SD cars etc. .

Case in point the TA did ok in the early 70's but did not take off till around 1976 with mass appeal. It did it on the help of a Movie and the fact it had little to no compitition. The Z28 was gone and the Mustang was a Pinto rebody. Lety alone the Vette was a shadow of it self with a low power engine and Vega steering wheel.

Edited July 3, 2009 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

66stang - >>"I enjoy cars like a late 70's TA because I remember double dating in them...

I enjoy cars like a 67 Grand Prix convertible or a 57 Olds Convertible because they are an utter work of art..."<<

Great analysis. On my part, my attachment to late '70s stuff thru experience still only holds a very small bit of sentimentality for me because I had already immersed myself in '50s-60s iron- so I knew the difference first-hand.

hyperv6 - >>"You have you're opinion and I have mine. I also am not the only one to have the same opinion. I do not attack your opinion and respect it even if I do not agree. So if you if you would stop addressing this we will never come together on it again. To agree to disagree goes a long way."<<

I am also not alone in my opinion, as if the above posts didn't point that out.

There is a small contingency that seeks --consciously or subconsciously-- to 'extend the blame' farther & farther back in history, as if they are 'discovering' something new; I've watched this as a guardian of history over the years & decades: 'the '80s sucked', 'the '70s sucked', 'the '60s sucked', and just recently Tony Swan of M/T stating GM 'was having problems in the late '50s'..... it just gets so tiresome and predictable, but it keeps going on. If no one stands up for the opposing view (I'll not say "facts" here for diplomatic reasons), that... version of the past will creep back into the '40s, '30s and right up to 1908 RE GM. At some point it becomes laughable, and IMO, it long ago already has.

And I would have said nothing here, but I felt you addressed me with the "...my friend..." statement.

>>"The Pontiacs from he 70's were not as good as many think they were. The other cars were just that bad that Pontiac had the better cars "<<

And this is exactly the criteria to use : no one judges 2009 cars legitimately vs 1999 cars. Pontiac of the '70s CANNOT legitimately be judged against Pontiac of the '60s, it must be judged against the rest of the '70s pack... and in that measure, Pontiac was doing 'more right' than anyone else WRT performance, esp Chevy.

And you said exactly that right here : >>"the TA did ok in the early 70's but did not take off till around 1976 with mass appeal. It did it on the help of a Movie and the fact it had little to no compitition. The Z28 was gone and the Mustang was a Pinto rebody. Lety alone the Vette was a shadow of it self with a low power engine and Vega steering wheel."

Pontiac deserves full credit for making that pop culture connection (Smokey), for keeping the T/A when Chevy dropped the Z28, for keeping big CI motors when Chevy dropped their big blocks, for pushing the 'Euro' sports sedan, for continuing to be the source for performance in the new car market when all others drifted into the ditch.

They're not my choice in cars, but I can still recognize & give credit where due; that in the dark, dank days of the '70s, Pontiac was still where it was at. The product reflected that and the sales confirmed it.

[SAmadei]

I can agree with some aspects of PMD 'beginning to lose it' in the '70s, yes, still; Pontiac had a strong image, strong sales, was healthy, and still trying (SD, GA, CA, Firebird/ T/A) thru the '70s, but the cars are just not my cup of ethyl.

Somewhere, at some time, there is a guy posting that GM lost its mojo when they stopped using tillers and moved to steering wheels... or that the last "true GM" product still had a crank and the ability to tear one's arm off. ;-)

Edited July 3, 2009 by SAmadei