Chevrolet 'Camaro/Chevelle' Prototype

[HarleyEarl]

Chevrolet Show Car to Have "Zeta Light" Platform Date Posted 11-29-2005 DETROIT — The sports car prototype that Chevrolet will unveil in January at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit will ride on General Motors' Zeta Light architecture and is almost certain to have a Corvette engine. GM would love to have a rear-wheel-drive coupe or 2+2 vehicle to challenge the Ford Mustang and forthcoming Dodge Challenger, and the prototype will show how GM thinks it should handle the matter. GM would also like its Mustang fighter to arrive as soon as possible. Media are reporting that GM will call the prototype "Camaro," but supplier sources familiar with the automaker's plans say the vehicle might instead resurrect the Chevelle nameplate. "All the magazines are assuming they're going to copy the '69 Camaro, and I think that's highly likely," a well-placed source told Inside Line. "But there's also a chance they could copy the '70 Chevelle, in which case they'll call it Chevelle." Much of the naming issue also depends on the status of GM's agreement with the city of Sainte-Thérèse, Quebec, where the company used to build Camaros and Firebirds. GM agreed not to use the names Camaro and Firebird for a period of time following the discontinuation of those models. But whatever its name, a rear-drive Chevy coupe off the Zeta Light platform is a done deal. Supplier sources say the first two Zeta Light offerings will be a sedan and a coupe, both from Chevrolet. The Zeta Light architecture is a version of GM's Zeta architecture, modified to take out cost and accommodate longer wheelbases. GM would price the Chevy coupe closer to the Mustang than the Corvette, giving it (most likely) a Corvette engine but leaving out the kind of sophisticated performance systems and upscale interior the Vette has. Edited November 30, 2005 by HarleyEarl

[AAS]

• Wasn't there another thread that said it would be a stretched Kappa? Not that it really matters to me, but I just want to get the facts (if any) straight.
  
• I thought all the legal issues with the Camaro name have been resolved or no longer exist.
  
• If it is called a Chevelle... I'm going to make thousands of $$$ by selling replacement Camaro badges :D

[knightfan26917]

Interesting. Very interesting.

Done deal? I'll believe it when I see it on the road ... driven by people who've just bought one.

*sighs*

As for the name.............


Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker
MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html
"It's coming down to nothing more than apathy" ... The Fray ... 'Over My Head'

[Guest Josh]

If it looks like the C&G Underground Chevelle by Bob (Camino) says anything I know he wants royalties!!! But to build on this, I've also heard of rumors of a Chevelle sittting in the design studios. Who the H&ll knows!

[ToniCipriani]

Or maybe Chevelle is sedan only? The coupe is called Camaro?

GM agreed not to use the names Camaro and Firebird for a period of time following the discontinuation of those models

I wonder how long this "period" is. It's been quite a while since the last Camaro rolled off the line.

[ToniCipriani]

Oh yeah, and I thought Zeta was supposed to be a strange mixture of the Commodore platform, Sigma, and some other parts to build an affordable RWD platform. So where does the "Zeta Lite" come from??

[Guest Josh]

AH-HA commented on Zeta Lite years ago as did Evok. That's why C&G has the latest news & info.

[Achelous]

But what did they say? Is Zeta Lite some new homegrown thing? Is it heavily drawn from the original Zeta (as I waould guess by the name) or a mishmash of several other architectures as tonycipriani was asking? What are the relationships between all of these platforms?

[rueben44]

But what did they say? Is Zeta Lite some new homegrown thing? Is it heavily drawn from the original Zeta (as I waould guess by the name) or a mishmash of several other architectures as tonycipriani was asking? What are the relationships between all of these platforms?

[post="50466"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I thought GM said that they made some mistakes in the designing of the Zeta platform so they redid it as the Zeta light. I also thought that Zeta borrowed from Sigma platform but was done in a way to make it cheaper. Does it matter anyway it will take GM 3 years at best to get it out to us even if they rush because of how slow they move. Nice news but I can not do the same thing I did with the Soltice. Getting happy about it and waiting years for it to hit the market.

[stevecmh]

As a college student, who will be graduating in the next 2-3 years I really want a sweet ass RWD Chevy. I dont care what it is called. Just build it so i can spend my first pay check on it. PLEASE

[RJB]

I hope it is not as retro as the Challenger concept car. I would like to see something in more of a modern theme. Do something for the coming ages and not a design that digresses back to the original.

[Guest Josh]

I believe that Edmunds got most of their story by Guy. I'll say that Edmunds really likes to guess, and well, they might be slightly off in this piece, however how bad ass would a new Chevelle be?

[Sixty8panther]

How about both? YES PLEASE! :)

[regfootball]

boy will there be celebrating around here when said car hits market.

[jbartley]

can we do a vote? Chevelle of Camaro?

[HarleyEarl]

I hope they go with Camaro......I miss that car more than the Chevelle.

[Mikko O]

Just adds a lot of suspense and excitement leading up to the N.A.I.C.S. Can't wait to see the Chevy concepts. Christmas comes in January for me. :)

[TKR]

Zeta or Zeta lite (live rear axle anyone?) would be logical if this new vehicle is aimed at Mustang as, the way I understand it, Kappa is designed for relatively low volume production. Wish list: 255 hp V6 or optional 400 hp V8 6 spd manual or 6 spd auto RWD live rear axle (or cheapish version of IRS) 2 door 4 seat 3000 lbs (if at all possible) yeah baby!!!! Bring it on.

[c0ld_phuz10n]

Ah, the old name game again. I dont know, I still think that GM would be a bit weary to bring back the Chevelle nameplate after they got their happy asses crucified over the new GTO. But I wouldn't mind as long as there are enough styling cues to show that it is a Chevelle, but not full on retro. Either way I am just glad that Chevy is getting a Mustang/Challenger competiter back in the ring, the GTO is cool and all, but it feels lonely without a consumerate Chevy by its side. Whatver name the new car gets I guess we will all just have to remeber...rose by any other name would still smell just as sweet. // c0ld_phuz10n Edited November 30, 2005 by c0ld_phuz10n

[ocnblu]

At this point, I don't care what they call it. Just bring it!

[SimonDavid]

Zeta's platform is not based on Sigma (that's is the problem), it's a heavily modified Commodore platform with Sigma based suspension. But being Australian it is relatively high cost. So before they bring it to the US they had to take some cost out, hence Zeta-light. Either way I hope the result is striking, GM could really use a Mustang / 300C competitor.

[steinravnik]

Sign me up! I will definitely buy one.

[Ultra Magnus]

I need to see it. I wish i could go to the show to see whatever they put up there first hand.

[BIGPhil]

I just hope that GM can quickly bring this vehicle(s) to market. Does anyone know how far along they were in the design process before they were "put on the back burner/ set aside/ held off on"? Does anyone know if they were able to transfer anything for that design/engineering to the new vehicle(s)? All I ask is this: GM build a 2 Dr, RWD, V8, " PONY CAR " (i.e. MUSTANG) AND GM build a 4 Dr, RWD, V8, SEDAN (i.e. 300C/CHARGER/ '96 IMPALA SS)

[turbo200]

I really like the fact that they are desperate to bring the Mustang fighter to market. Regardless of if it's called Camaro or Chevelle at the show, it will be Camaro in production form, no doubt about it. Camaro is something like the 3rd or 4th most recognized nameplate; Chevy would be stupid to drop that kind of association.

[RODIMUS FIRE CONVOY]

Chevelle/Camaro?? this i have to see. chevy does need a 2+2 coupe. So the y can send the Mustang to the glue factory!!

[91z4me]

I just hope that GM can quickly bring this vehicle(s) to market.

Does anyone know how far along they were in the design process before they were "put on the back burner/ set aside/ held off on"?

Does anyone know if they were able to transfer anything for that design/engineering to the new vehicle(s)?

All I ask is this:

GM build a 2 Dr, RWD, V8, " PONY CAR " (i.e. MUSTANG)

AND

GM build a 4 Dr, RWD, V8, SEDAN (i.e. 300C/CHARGER/ '96 IMPALA SS)

[post="50610"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

OK to bring some info over from CZ28, where I spend most of my time.

Simga is a Zeta, VE is a Zeta, Sigma lite is a derivitive of a Zeta.

Zeta is a build and design process that allows multiple versions of the same architecture to be built on the same line in similar manners, for instance CTS, STS, SRX are all on Sigma BUT they are different vehicles, the current V-car would fall into the same category also.

Holden is the homeroom for RWD so all new RWD programs, excluding trucks and Corvette will be mostly engineered by them. Holden is using VE, as SimonDavid said it is an updated and improved V-car unibody with Sigma suspension, though I am hearing an advanced strut arrangement similar to the newer BMW system is used up front. This is a lower cost platform to Sigma.

Problem with VE in the states is that the build process is different than the US uses and would have cost a lot of money to change VE to build it into the states. Though Guy McCoy said he has heard VE may actually come to the states afterall for Buick and Pontiac, more on this in a second.

Sigma is high cost because of somewhat extensive use of aluminum, and because Caddy pretty much bore the burden to develop it and now doesn't want to share.

Sigma lite is being referred to as the 'RWD Chevy platform' presumably because it bore most of the expense to design and engineer the chassis. Sigma lite or it may be called Zeta lite or something totally different uses Sigma unibody components with a strut front, Mark Ruess thanks for spilling that, along with the Ve (steel intesive IRS). Sigma lite was probably being worked on as far back as 00 all the way till 2002 or 2003. Then it took a nap while GMNA thought about using VE for its US cars.

GMNA decides converting a US plant to make VE the way Holden makes it would be to expensive, about a year after that we hear that Zeta is cancelled. All hell breaks loose but some people say don't worry wait till the smoke clears and then look at what you have.

So what we have is 3 different RWD platforms all are Zeta's and ALL meet US safety standards all interchange at least part of the rear suspension and ALL can share engines.

What we will see is Sigma staying with Caddy, DUH, VE being a Holden and possibly US built chassis with Buick getting a large sedan, Pontiac a midsize sedan and coupe (GTO), and Sigma lite being the basis for a Chevy sport sedan and sport coupe (Camaro). There also lies the possibility for a Chevy Large RWD sedan based on VE.

I hope some of the confusion is cleared, GMI won't listen when people lay it out for them I hope you guys do listen.

Also I think that a Chevelle sedan makes Mucho sense and that is something I can see happening unless the Impala is the RWD sedan to launch around 09.

[Brandon Lutz]

I wouldnt be surprised if there are 2 cars. A 4 door Chevelle to compete against the Charger and a Camaro. Both being built off a the same platform.

[turbo200]

OK to bring some info over from CZ28, where I spend most of my time.

Simga is a Zeta, VE is a Zeta, Sigma lite is a derivitive of a Zeta.

Zeta is a build and design process that allows multiple versions of the same architecture to be built on the same line in similar manners, for instance CTS, STS, SRX are all on Sigma BUT they are different vehicles, the current V-car would fall into the same category also.

Holden is the homeroom for RWD so all new RWD programs, excluding trucks and Corvette will be mostly engineered by them.  Holden is using VE, as SimonDavid said it is an updated and improved V-car unibody with Sigma suspension, though I am hearing an advanced strut arrangement similar to the newer BMW system is used up front.  This is a lower cost platform to Sigma.

Problem with VE in the states is that the build process is different than the US uses and would have cost a lot of money to change VE to build it into the states.  Though Guy McCoy said he has heard VE may actually come to the states afterall for Buick and Pontiac, more on this in a second.

Sigma is high cost because of somewhat extensive use of aluminum, and because Caddy pretty much bore the burden to develop it and now doesn't want to share. 

Sigma lite is being referred to as the 'RWD Chevy platform' presumably because it bore most of the expense to design and engineer the chassis.  Sigma lite or it may be called Zeta lite or something totally different uses Sigma unibody components with a strut front, Mark Ruess thanks for spilling that, along with the Ve (steel intesive IRS).  Sigma lite was probably being worked on as far back as 00 all the way till 2002 or 2003.  Then it took a nap while GMNA thought about using VE for its US cars.

GMNA decides converting a US plant to make VE the way Holden makes it would be to expensive, about a year after that we hear that Zeta is cancelled.  All hell breaks loose but some people say don't worry wait till the smoke clears and then look at what you have.

So what we have is 3 different RWD platforms all are Zeta's and ALL meet US safety standards all interchange at least part of the rear suspension and ALL can share engines.

What we will see is Sigma staying with Caddy, DUH, VE being a Holden and possibly US built chassis with Buick getting a large sedan, Pontiac a midsize sedan and coupe (GTO), and Sigma lite being the basis for a Chevy sport sedan and sport coupe (Camaro).  There also lies the possibility for a Chevy Large RWD sedan based on VE.

I hope some of the confusion is cleared, GMI won't listen when people lay it out for them I hope you guys do listen.

Also I think that a Chevelle sedan makes Mucho sense and that is something I can see happening unless the Impala is the RWD sedan to launch around 09.

[post="50669"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Best. Explanation. Ever.

Looking forward to the RWD Chevy sedan, and of course, our comrade.

[NOS2006]

This is how I've perceived it for years now on this site (and cz28 too). We'll get an '09 (well, I first thought '08, but it seems like it was pushed back a year) Camaro along with a platform-mate Chevy sedan. I always saw three possible names for the sedan: Impala, Caprice, and Chevelle. Caprice was more just hopes than anything else. Impala's been FWD for too long to just become RWD, IMO, but it's a possibility. Chevelle is probably the best possibility, especially now that it's coming from, one, the same platform as the Camaro and, two, that it is another discontinued name from Chevy, like the Camaro. We'll see how it inks out, but I'm putting my money on this story..

[99camaroSS]

I wouldnt be surprised if there are 2 cars. A 4 door Chevelle to compete against the Charger and a Camaro. Both being built off a the same platform.

[post="50672"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

stole the words right of my mouth, i was gonna post the same thing. it would be awsome to get a 2 door camaro to fight the mustang and upcoming challenger and then have the chevelle as a rwd v8 4door to combat the charger and 300c

[Sixty8panther]

I'm starting to think the Auto Show might be a great excuse to finally make it out to Deee-troit. I'll regret it for till the end of tie if I miss it but my daughter's Bitrthday is on the 12th. (I've never been to Motor City) :( Edited November 30, 2005 by Sixty8panther

[thegriffon]

If you want them to call the sedan a Chevelle, you'd better start lobbying GM now. The fastlane blog might be a good place to start.

[Carguy]

As long as they keep the weight down bellow todays SIGMA with this SIGMA/ZETA/VE hybrid platform. And offer a Coupe-Base 3.9L 250HP V6--Z28 5.3L 325HP V8--SS 400HP 6.0L -CAMARO! And a Sadan-3.9L 250HP V6--4.8L 300HP V8-CHEVELLE with the PROPER Cami 69/Chev 70 STYLING I will be HAPPY!! :)

[Cortazzo]

I can't picture a chevy lineup with a fwd malibu and impala, and THEN a rwd sedan somewhere inbetween. My guess is that that chevy RWD sedan will be an Impala, as the refreshed version ends production in 08 or 09, just in time for the oshawa plant to convert to RWD. Both the 'camaro' and a rwd impala would be built on the same line replacing the fwd impala and monte carlo. OR If they didn't need the chevy sedan to be terribly high in volume (and keeping both the malibu and impala FWD), they can convert spring hill to full RWD production to produce a camaro, 'chevelle', and rwd buick and pontiac sedans. Spring hill has more than enough capacity, and by 2009 Vue production will probably move, leaving both production lines available, with about 400k unit capacity available for RWD goodness.

[97regalGS]

I'm starting to think the Auto Show might be a great excuse to finally make it out to Deee-troit. I'll regret it for till the end of tie if I miss it but my daughter's Bitrthday is on the 12th.

(I've never been to Motor City) :(

[post="50700"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the show is on for a week. i'd figure out a way to go if i were you. i've been the past 3 years. highly recommended!

[97regalGS]

I can't picture a chevy lineup with a fwd malibu and impala, and THEN a rwd sedan somewhere inbetween.  My guess is that that chevy RWD sedan will be an Impala, as the refreshed version ends production in 08 or 09, just in time for the oshawa plant to convert to RWD.  Both the 'camaro' and a rwd impala would be built on the same line replacing the fwd impala and monte carlo.

OR

If they didn't need the chevy sedan to be terribly high in volume (and keeping both the malibu and impala FWD), they can convert spring hill to full RWD production to produce a camaro, 'chevelle', and rwd buick and pontiac sedans.  Spring hill has more than enough capacity, and by 2009 Vue production will probably move, leaving both production lines available, with about 400k unit capacity available for RWD goodness.

[post="50713"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

i'd guess the next gen Malibu inherits the Maxx extended wheelbase and grows a bit in size to get closer to the FWD Impala, and then the Impala goes RWD in '09

that gives Chevy a pretty well rounded line-up

[Carguy]

i'd guess the next gen Malibu inherits the Maxx extended wheelbase and grows a bit in size to get closer to the FWD Impala, and then the Impala goes RWD in '09

that gives Chevy a pretty well rounded line-up

[post="50722"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good thinking! B)

[SimonDavid]

Thankyou - that was the best explanation ever Only one thing I don't understand - why would GM build both Sigma-lite and VE in the US, if they are both similar size similar cost and completely different build sequence? Or maybe VE will be import only for relatively low-volume nich products (GTO? Roadmaster?), and Sigma-lite is the high volume US build Caprice / Camaro. Any ideas? In any case its good news, and the sooner the better

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Whatever it is, I'll buy it. (If I have the money, of course.) As to a theory as to what Chevy will do with the Chevelle and Camaro nameplates, the sedan and coupe idea makes sense. Chevy could take a lot of market with a two-pronged attack. And by that I mean that the Impala/Monte-Pala will remain in the line as front-drivers to tackle Ford, Honda, and Toyota. And then to take on DCX and whoever else can apply here, they'll have the Chevelle sedan to take on the Charger and the Camaro to take on the Challenger. Both are rear-drive. Although it is somewhat unrelated, that move would somewhat downsize the Malibu or make the Impala bigger, since both cars are similar in size. Edited December 1, 2005 by anorexorcist

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

I believe Chevy would lose Impala sales if they moved it to RWD, probably best to give it a good design, a new platform, but keep it FWD.

[haypops]

Just adds a lot of suspense and excitement leading up to the
N.A.I.C.S. Can't wait to see the Chevy concepts. Christmas
comes in January for me.  :)

[post="50539"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In a slighlty realted topic: Christmas wil be in December and again the following November this year. In previous years the Los Angeles show has been premiered just days befor the detroit show. This year only, it will be in December as usual, and again in November. After this year, the LA show will be in November only.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ Duh, huh-huh... ? Wha'? Something in that post didn't add up...

[turbo200]

If you want them to call the sedan a Chevelle, you'd better start lobbying GM now. The fastlane blog might be a good place to start.

[post="50703"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So you mean they are debating what to call it now? Does this mean Impala would go away or stay a FWD sedan? Malibu or Impala are on equal footing right now, with equal equity, but I'd be glad just to see some consistency. For the sake of consistency I'd rather them keep both names, and the advertising dollars they've spent over the last decade. Chevelle would be okay, but I think it's time for GM to have some consistency with names already.

[turbo200]

I believe Chevy would lose Impala sales if they moved it to RWD, probably best to give it a good design, a new platform, but keep it FWD.

[post="50820"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Malibu will be able to cater to those that want FWD. Please don't start this story again. Malibu will grow in size, and the design will be gotta have. Whatever RWD sedan comes out will be a large RWD sedan, as we've been hearing [though I did hear someone refer to it as sporty recently], and that will be a one-two punch noobdy else but Chrysler and Dodge will have. The LX cars have proven RWD is suitable for the mass market. Edited December 1, 2005 by turbo200

[91z4me]

Thankyou - that was the best explanation ever

Only one thing I don't understand - why would GM build both Sigma-lite and VE in the US, if they are both similar size similar cost and completely different build sequence? 

Or maybe VE will be import only for relatively low-volume nich products (GTO? Roadmaster?), and Sigma-lite is the high volume US build Caprice / Camaro.  Any ideas?

In any case its good news, and the sooner the better

[post="50799"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't think that VE and Sigma lite need be close in size. Remember Holden designed VE to fit their market, their biggest seller is the LWB V-cars, Commedore class but they also sell Large Luxury cars (Statesman/Caprice). Sigma also comes in 2 sizes the RWD, CTS, and AWD, SRX/STS, sizes. If Sigma lite were based a little on both Sigmas you could end up with a relatively GTO sized car easliy. It could have the CTS length and STS size width giving you the following dimensions: 190" length and 72.6" width it would weigh between 3500(CTS) and 3960(STS). Now compared to the following chart you can see how that would rank in size to curren models.

CTS
Length: 190.1 in. Width: 70.6 in.
Height: 56.7 in. Wheel Base: 113.4 in.
Ground Clearance: 5.9 in. Curb Weight: 3509 lbs.


GTO
Length: 189.8 in. Width: 72.5 in.
Height: 54.9 in. Wheel Base: 109.8 in.
Curb Weight: 3725 lbs.

STS
Length: 196.3 in. Width: 72.6 in.
Height: 57.6 in. Wheel Base: 116.4 in.
Curb Weight: 3960 lbs.


CAPRICE
LENGTH WIDTH
204.5 72.7


COMMEDORE
length width
196 72

Mustang
Length: 187.6 in. Width: 74 in.
Height: 54.5 in. Wheel Base: 107.1 in.
Ground Clearance: 5.7 in. Curb Weight: 3300 lbs.

I still belive that the Sigma lite architecture offers signifigant cost savings vs VE because you don't have to convert to a new manufacturing system and you don't have to re-engineer the chassis for use with the US manufacturing system. I think Buick and Pontiac will both get sedans on VE and Pontiac will get a GTO. Sigma lite will stay with Chevy because it can be sold at a good profit at a cheaper price point. I expect Sigma lite to go to Oshawa and VE, once again if it comes to the states to go to Willmington, DE.

I could be wrong about all this but I think I have put the crumbs together pretty well.

Edit to add Mustang dimensions. Edited December 1, 2005 by 91z4me

[Jazzhead]

The current Impala is clean and contemporary, and a worthy competitor to the Japanese marques. The RWD Zeta Lite should be positioned as a retro styling exercise - it's competition isn't the Japanese, but the Mustang (and Challenger). A "retro" design, BTW, doesn't have to look old fashioned. Retro cues interpreted in a modern way - like the Mustang - is a market niche that GM is a natural for, but has only just begun to get into with the HHR. It's also a natural for RWD, which is "retro" in itself. A new Camaro updating the classic '69 sounds perfect, an appeal to a complementay demographic to the Impala - and thereby apt to build sales, not cannibalize them.

[corvette_dude729]

Hey, this is really off topic, but I'm not sure where else to post this and I'll probably sound like an idiot newbie: How do you get pictures to show up in your signature?

[knightfan26917]

*shrugs*

Ya'll oughtta know by now what name I'd prefer.

But, whatever they name it ... if the RWD coupe does come to production and for sale to the public ... I sure hope it takes over the NASCAR flagship so that you can once again "race on Sunday, purchase on Monday". You haven't been able to do that since 1988.....


Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker
MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/
Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html
"It's coming down to nothing more than apathy" ... The Fray ... 'Over My Head'

[hyperv6]

91z4me did you see Scotts post on names on cz28? He gave a statment that "if one is to say Z everyone knows it is a Camaro but if you say SS it could be anything." He followed it up with a "The SS did go away for a few years but did return later." The final line was wanting to know if he was driving us crazy yet. I have been thinking on this and wonder if this means the cars standard performance version will be a Z28 with a higher model later of a SS? Or does it mean the new car may be call a Z28 and not a Camaro? I have never seen the name Z28 was off limits. I also think that if a Chevelle is made it will be a 4 door. Back in the day half or more Chevells were 4 doors and with todays market Chevy could use a 4 door sedan that size. We also know GM may have made mistakes but those working on the Camaro would never make it a 4 door. Unless it was like the Saturn hidden doors. I don't know what cars built where but these would replace the W cars and that is their best plant. The are reported gone in 08 so what would they build in the great white norh in 09? More clues only make more questions!