Fritz opens himself to criticism on public blog

[A Horse With No Name]

They're allowed to be very very wrong and I'm allowed to call them out on it.

Which is a very profoundly good point that I think many here will miss. Back in the late 1700's it was common for people to print all kinds of garbage that was baseless and without reason.

But debate is essential for a free society, and the cranks are one of the very groups the writers of the first amendment wanted to protect.

chris

[regfootball]

In a 9 million vehicle per year market with 19% market share, Pontiac and Saturn don't make sense. Pontiac would have to be so "niche market" they'd end up being Tesla.

Personally, I think Pontiac's fate was sealed with the new Malibu. Once GM proved they could sell a main stream Chevy again that was far superior to the Pontiac sibling, Pontiac was doomed.

If GM feels the need to sell a sporty version, they can make RS or SS models.

buick does not make sense then either, only because they chose to keep it around to try. the only saving grace buick had was higher transaction prices than pontiac, but they certainly did not have higher volume or an actual living demographic.

[Drew Dowdell]

buick does not make sense then either, only because they chose to keep it around to try. the only saving grace buick had was higher transaction prices than pontiac, but they certainly did not have higher volume or an actual living demographic.

Pontiac is/was too close to Chevy. It's a mainstream brand right along with Dodge and Ford. Buick is movin on up to be the soft luxury side of GM. There is a world of difference between a Malibu and a 2010 LaX. How much difference between a Malibu and a G6 could there be that couldn't instead be handled by a Malibu SS? With Kappa dead, Torrent going to GMC, and G8 canceled..... you have the Vibe, G3, G5, and G6. When the most compelling product in the lineup is the Vibe, your brand has problems.

Like the Rendezvous before it, the Enclave has brought Buick's average age down. The 2010 LaX and Regal are likely to continue that trend.

[ocnblu]

Pontiac is/was different enough from Chevrolet, with its better products (Solstice/G8) to justify itself. And Buick? They ain't there yet, with a plastic wheel-covered LaX CX.

[Drew Dowdell]

Pontiac is/was different enough from Chevrolet, with its better products (Solstice/G8) to justify itself. And Buick? They ain't there yet, with a plastic wheel-covered LaX CX.

Again, knowing that the Kappas were going to have to die because they always lost money... and knowing the G8 was going to die because exchange rates were too volatile.

What was there left of Pontiac? Don't give me some imaginary platform that we haven't seen mules for yet. Tell me how Pontiac makes money, makes sense, in August 2009.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not questioning the right to say anything, but one person's viewpoint rarely reflects the will of a nation or consumer-base. The manner in which some choose to offer their viewpoint also plays a big role in whether they will actually have an audience other than the echo of their own words in a garbage can.

Actually you did just that, saying "they think they have a right".

Well, I just pointed out that they do, in fact, have that right.

At least for now...

As for the debate in this thread, I have decided not to enter the fray.

[regfootball]

Pontiac is/was too close to Chevy. It's a mainstream brand right along with Dodge and Ford. Buick is movin on up to be the soft luxury side of GM. There is a world of difference between a Malibu and a 2010 LaX. How much difference between a Malibu and a G6 could there be that couldn't instead be handled by a Malibu SS? With Kappa dead, Torrent going to GMC, and G8 canceled..... you have the Vibe, G3, G5, and G6. When the most compelling product in the lineup is the Vibe, your brand has problems.

Like the Rendezvous before it, the Enclave has brought Buick's average age down. The 2010 LaX and Regal are likely to continue that trend.

i only see blue hairs driving enclaves. i do see the younger set driving outlooks, acadias, and traverses.

i don't see the lacrosse bringing the age down much, the design is not something anyone under 30 will touch because of price and size...... but the regal has a chance to, ONLY if the car is basically an untouched Insignia and is as cheap as say, a mazda6.

the problem with chevy now is at least on the cheaper products, they styling is not very sporty. the cruze is no mazda3, the malibu is no altima or mazda6.

pontiac at least was an outlet for those who didn't want a toyota.

there really is no reason why pontiac could not have continued. even with 2 models. but it would have required a new g6 which GM simply had no intention of paying for.

chevy cannot ride 'sporty' on camaro alone. especially with no cruze SS. its criminal for GM not to stuff the ecotec turbo in the cruze.

i still think the g8 will morph into impala or an all new camaroesque rwd impala is on the horizon for oshawa. the cops want it, and for that reason alone i think will bring enough business case to get it built in NA and help amortize the money michigan spent hosing the zeta.

Edited June 6, 2009 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

I haven't seen a single Enclave that was driven by Edgar and Mabel BlueHair. Nearly all of them were what you breeders would call MILFs... the EXACT type you'd picture in an RX.

[Justin Bimmer]

Enclaves around here are all women and men in their 30s-40s that are pretty well off, realize it is a better fit than a tahoe or suburban and have families.

[Satty]

I can never see who is driving Enclaves because they all seem to have uber-dark limo tint.

[SAmadei]

Again, knowing that the Kappas were going to have to die because they always lost money... and knowing the G8 was going to die because exchange rates were too volatile.

What was there left of Pontiac? Don't give me some imaginary platform that we haven't seen mules for yet. Tell me how Pontiac makes money, makes sense, in August 2009.

Where is GM publishing this line-by-line profitability report that you draw this stuff from?  Kappas don't make money... Pontiacs don't make money... Well, with the GM "tax" (pension and union problems), NOTHING makes money, unless its priced out of the reach of the average consumer.  Big trucks and SUVs, the Corvette, overpriced Buicks and Cadillacs are the only things apparently making money.  Why not just build one car a year and charge $65 billion dollars for it... that will make a profit, even for idiot-run GM.

The GM "tax" should have gone away with the bankruptcy... if, suddenly, GM can make a profit with the Aveo, then they could make a profit with the G3 and its $200 of modifications.  Of course, GM post-bankruptcy is still run by the same morons as before... so I'm sure they'll all pat themselves on their back and give themselves raises to gobble up the profits.

Some would argue about marketing funds being spread too thin, but quite frankly, GM hasn't done anything but throw marketing dollars into the trash anyway.  The best marketing it word of mouth... of course, little GM offers makes people want to brag.  "Oh, I got this great Malibu... its ugly on the outside, but you should check out the plastic on the dashboard."

Anyway, Pontiac and the Kappas are a symtom of the problem, not the cause.

As for the G8, and its wild exchange volatility, it was supposed to be built here once it got rolling.  Of course, I feel the days of US-built GM products is drawing to an end... then GM can blame all sorts of exchange problems on its all-Chinese built Buick line.

[A Horse With No Name]

The question is not weather Pontiac was making money but if it could make money building unique cars. I think there is a market for unique GM produced cars, and that they have the ability to produce and market unique cars. They have shown this over a period of several decades.

But SAmadei your right about the Morons in GM management.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I haven't seen a single Enclave that was driven by Edgar and Mabel BlueHair. Nearly all of them were what you breeders would call MILFs... the EXACT type you'd picture in an RX.

+1

The Enclave seems to appeal to a pretty wide variety of people around here.

Chris

[SAmadei]

The question is not weather Pontiac was making money but if it could make money building unique cars. I think there is a market for unique GM produced cars, and that they have the ability to produce and market unique cars. They have shown this over a period of several decades.

How unique are the Kappas? They were competing successfully with the Miata and to a lesser degree the Z4, TT, and that little Mercedes (I can't think of the name). As I understand it, they outsold the Miata... and yet, it doesn't make a profit? That sounds like bad management and manufacturing design. It was known from the beginning that the Kappas were not going to sell 100K+ a year... they are a niche or halo car. Manufacturing, parts and pricing need to reflect that, GM legacy costs or not. Sure, it was built using new techniques, but those techniques need to be made efficient if they are expected to be used for other carlines.

It took 3 years to get the targa going. Jeez, back in 1958, GM revamped its entire line in one year... in 2009 it took them 3 years to put a hard roof on an existing car. Its hard to add volume on products that should have appeared 2 years earlier.

IMHO, the problem with GM unique cars has been price and dilution. Price is directly related to the legacy costs that they needed to shed two decades ago. Dilution is caused by bean counters trying to deal with legacy costs.

It wouldn't surprise me if every Cobalt, Malibu and W-body GM made came at a loss. Too unique.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I haven't seen an Enclave in weeks. I've been seeing about 2-3 G8s per day though...

[hyperv6]

Just got off a long road trip and Enclaves are all over. Most are drive by Lexus type customers and not old people. Old people could not see over the wheel or back them up.

I did see 4 G8's in 5 hours and 1 new Camaro along with 5 new Mustangs.

GMC Arcadias every 4 miles one went by.

[ZL-1]

Jeez, back in 1958, GM revamped its entire line in one year...

In 1958 GM had a dominant and unchallenged position in the US market and because of that it had tons of cash. In the time frame of the Kappa development and rollout GM had lost half its market share and was in very precarious financial position. Hance why it took 3 years to roll out a Solstice targa.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hence why it was stupid to kill the car. It's going to be that much harder to regain their mojo with the next small two seat car since they killed all their mojo in discontinueing the Kappa's.

Had they left the Fiero in production, and made it right from the get go, we'd have twenty five years of succesful Fiero production and Mazda, BMW, Honda and Co. would be the ones playing catch up.

Chris

[SAmadei]

In 1958 GM had a dominant and unchallenged position in the US market and because of that it had tons of cash. In the time frame of the Kappa development and rollout GM had lost half its market share and was in very precarious financial position. Hance why it took 3 years to roll out a Solstice targa.

In 1958, the automakers had to redesign cars with rocks for tools. No CAD... no robots... no JIT inventory. It was a huge undertaking... of course, you didn't have the federal regulation you have now, but that only delays things so much. And IIRC, 1958 was the year after Chevy lost the sales led to Ford... so it wasn't too dominant. The recessions of the '50s and fickle public let quite a few makes disappear... DeSoto, Packard, Studebaker, Kaiser-Fraiser, Nash, Hudson, Willys... and, almost, Pontiac.

GM has done this since the late '70s, with their too-little-too-late crap. To wit, the Fiero. It took 5 model years to fix the suspension. They had plenty of profit in the '80s and '90s. The targa is only the latest bit... I don't buy the precarious financial position argument, since it seemed to be business as usual.

[ShadowDog]

Actually you did just that, saying "they think they have a right".

Well, I just pointed out that they do, in fact, have that right.

At least for now...

As for the debate in this thread, I have decided not to enter the fray.

Sorry, just a poor choice of words on my part. Oldsmoboi narrowed things down a lot with his comment for which I tend to agree with.

Eh... I'm sure it's all looked at like sticks-n-stones. Critical feedback is easy for anyone to dish out.