Chevy Volt coasts closer to reality, first bona fide model now in production

[Drew Dowdell]

Chevy Volt coasts closer to reality, first bona fide model now in production

via Engadget

General Motors has just cut the ribbon, metaphorically at least, on the production of the first genuine Chevy Volt integration vehicle. Unlike previous versions, which have been "developments mules" made using parts from the Malibu / Cruze lines, this will look (and hopefully feel) 100 percent like what the company plans to start pimping out this November. The pre-production model will be put through the paces in case the design needs to be refined and tweaked before going full steam ahead. GM is sticking pretty close to its original plan of building at a rate of ten a week by mid-July, with "several hundred more" going into production early next year, and with any luck, it'll be packing some standardized EV plug by then.

[Camino LS6]

<----starts researching wholesale crow suppliers.

Certain folks will require it.

[Z-06]

<----starts researching wholesale crow suppliers.

Certain folks will require it.

Crow suppliers have moved from the car being a vaporware to it now being too expensive. Just ignore them.

[G. David Felt]

<----starts researching wholesale crow suppliers.

Certain folks will require it.

OK, guess I am brainless today, what do you mean by wholesale crow suppliers?

[Justin Bimmer]

Nice to see some good news on the front page!

Volt

[pow]

this November

Actually, next November, with "real showroom availability" early 2011, according to Lutz.

Still, that's impressive considering they started with nothing in 2007, when they first released the concept Volt. I would argue the concept was vaporware - it had detailed, imaginary specifications when the vehicle itself was powered by a bucket of detergent - but facing enormous public pressure, they had no choice but to begin engineering a production model, and that effort has been earnest and effective, IMO.

Kudos to the engineers at GM!

Edited May 28, 2009 by empowah

[GXT]

OK, guess I am brainless today, what do you mean by wholesale crow suppliers?

He's preparing a meal for me! Apparently a big one too!

Again, for the record, because some people are misrepresenting what I said:

At the time GM showed the concept a lot of people here believed that they had a fully functioning vehicle and that GM had magically leap-frogged Toyota in technology (as opposed to being several generations behind in hybrids). I took flak because I said that I suspected that the prototype didn’t really work and that all GM had was theory and that it was probable that many other automakers had done as much (if not more) theory work. I said GM had no special expertise/technology and if they could do it then anyone could do it. I believed the other manufacturers were just less desperate and therefore didn’t need to engage in such a PR exercise.

We now know that that concept had nothing more than a couple of car batteries and a detergent container under the hood. Further, we now know that Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota have demonstrated what could be described as near production intent EV’s or E-REVs BEFORE GM was able to demo the Volt mules (and for the most part they all did it with very little fan-fair). Based on that, and all the things that have changed on the Volt, I have little doubt was I said was accurate.

Regarding my claim that GM wouldn’t/couldn’t build the Volt, I’d like to point out that they haven’t yet. But even if the production-intent Volt makes it to market, it appears to fall short of what GM claimed the Volt would be in almost every conceivable way. To paraphrase my previous question, “If I find some guy named Jesus living in his garage in Albuquerque does that mean that Jesus of the Bible existed? Or is it a requirement that he be the son of God, walk on water, etc?”. So no, even if it does make it to market, they aren’t going to deliver on what was originally promised.

To be clear, I never thought that GM would go even this far. On the other hand, I never thought that they would be burning through 1Billion+/month, be worth -90 Billion, or be going bankrupt by this Monday. Clearly I gave them more credit about running a profitable company than they deserved. I guess under the circumstances it seems pretty obvious that they would be spending huge money on a niche, money-losing vehicle of questionable value.

[Drew Dowdell]

I’d like to point out that they haven’t yet. But even if the production-intent Volt makes it to market, it appears to fall short of what GM claimed the Volt would be in almost every conceivable way.

uhm... how?

[GXT]

Actually, next November, with "real showroom availability" early 2011, according to Lutz.

Still, that's impressive considering they started with nothing in 2007, when they first released the concept Volt. I would argue the concept was vaporware - it had detailed, imaginary specifications when the vehicle itself was powered by a bucket of detergent - but facing enormous public pressure, they had no choice but to begin engineering a production model, and that effort has been earnest and effective, IMO.

Kudos to the engineers at GM!

Sounds pretty accurate to me... you can have some of my crow.

Except you have to consider that others beat them to it... BYD have had essentially a Volt on sale for quite some time now, and Chrysler and Toyota retrofits have shown how quickly you CAN do this if you actually WANT to do it (not that they want to either). I would say that the Volt exercise has distracted GM from providing what they (and the "use less fuel" crowd) really needed... a good small mass-market hybrid. GM went from maligning hybrids for having big batteries to producing a Volt with a battery ~40 times larger than the Insight! I don't blame the GM engineers. It was clearly management's bad decisions.

[GXT]

uhm... how?

The big ones would be:

Appearance

Cost

Fuel Efficiency

Availability

Range

[Drew Dowdell]

Sounds pretty accurate to me... you can have some of my crow.

Except you have to consider that others beat them to it... BYD have had essentially a Volt on sale for quite some time now, and Chrysler and Toyota retrofits have shown how quickly you CAN do this if you actually WANT to do it (not that they want to either). I would say that the Volt exercise has distracted GM from providing what they (and the "use less fuel" crowd) really needed... a good small mass-market hybrid. GM went from maligning hybrids for having big batteries to producing a Volt with a battery ~40 times larger than the Insight! I don't blame the GM engineers. It was clearly management's bad decisions.

The Insight (if you mean the first Gen) never moves on electricity alone and uses "traditional" batteries. The Volt runs up to 40 miles on electricity alone and uses lithium ion batteries. AFAIK, no other major manufacturer is using Lith-Ions. The Tesla is just a bunch of Toshiba laptop batteries strung together.

[Drew Dowdell]

The big ones would be:

Appearance

Cost

Fuel Efficiency

Availability

Range

1. Show me a concept car that makes it into production in the original concept form.

2. The price range was always 30k - 40k, yes that's a wide margin, but they said it would be with in that.

3. People are getting 100mpg by hypermilling Pruises, I don't doubt the Volt can do that too.

4. This was always going to be a slow ramp up vehicle with limited availability in the first few years.

5. As always, your mileage may vary.

[G. David Felt]

The big ones would be:

Appearance = True not like the concept

Cost = Maybe, they always said 35 to 40K

Fuel Efficiency = I do not see how they have not delivered on this, after 40 miles, the little engine kicks in to build electricity for the battery pack.

Availability = I have never heard anything but 2011 for the delivery date, did they state an earlier one?

Range = 40 miles electric and then 300 to 400 miles with a small engine to produce electricity.

I disagree with some of this. As I have stated above is what I recall from all the news and as such would only feel that the Appearance is the one item they have not delivered on.

[pow]

The Insight (if you mean the first Gen) never moves on electricity alone and uses "traditional" batteries. The Volt runs up to 40 miles on electricity alone and uses lithium ion batteries. AFAIK, no other major manufacturer is using Lith-Ions. The Tesla is just a bunch of Toshiba laptop batteries strung together.

All the major manufacturers are using lithium ion batteries on their upcoming plug-ins: Chrysler ENVI, Ford plug-in hybrid, Ford BEV (Smith EV for Transit Connect; Magna for Focus), and Toyota HSD plug-in. Mercedes is using li-ion for their existing no-plug hybrid.

[pow]

Sounds pretty accurate to me... you can have some of my crow.

Except you have to consider that others beat them to it... BYD have had essentially a Volt on sale for quite some time now, and Chrysler and Toyota retrofits have shown how quickly you CAN do this if you actually WANT to do it (not that they want to either). I would say that the Volt exercise has distracted GM from providing what they (and the "use less fuel" crowd) really needed... a good small mass-market hybrid. GM went from maligning hybrids for having big batteries to producing a Volt with a battery ~40 times larger than the Insight! I don't blame the GM engineers. It was clearly management's bad decisions.

A mass-market hybrid (as well as vastly improved small car offerings) would sell more and help out with GM's current situation, but I think the Volt is an important investment for whatever future GM has.

Once they've sold the initial batch of Volts, things will get easier.

[pow]

The big ones would be:

Appearance

Cost

Fuel Efficiency

Availability

Range

That's true if you paid attention to what Bob Lutz boasted - but I think the rest of GM has been more conservative and accurate. Snippets from interviews are, unfortunately, quite removed from official press releases at GM. Lutz enjoys making big statements, often much to the chagrin of other GM leaders.

[Drew Dowdell]

All the major manufacturers are using lithium ion batteries on their upcoming plug-ins: Chrysler ENVI, Ford plug-in hybrid, Ford BEV (Smith EV for Transit Connect; Magna for Focus), and Toyota HSD plug-in. Mercedes is using li-ion for their existing no-plug hybrid.

I thought Toyota already said they wouldn't be going with Li

[G. David Felt]

I thought Toyota already said they wouldn't be going with Li

With their huge traditional lead acid battery plant in Canada and all the green house gas it produces, I would be suprised if Toyota went to LI. I suspect they will with their new Plug in Prius.

[GXT]

I thought Toyota already said they wouldn't be going with Li

They aren't for this current gen prius. But their plugins use them.

More to the point, GM just bought the li-ion batteries. Anyone could do that.

[GXT]

That's true if you paid attention to what Bob Lutz boasted - but I think the rest of GM has been more conservative and accurate. Snippets from interviews are, unfortunately, quite removed from official press releases at GM. Lutz enjoys making big statements, often much to the chagrin of other GM leaders.

Except that it was Wagoner who claimed nicely under 30K... and Lutz who claimed 40 and then 48K.

It had a target of 30K, and GM's best estimate now seems to be 40K.

[GXT]

1. Show me a concept car that makes it into production in the original concept form.

2. The price range was always 30k - 40k, yes that's a wide margin, but they said it would be with in that.

3. People are getting 100mpg by hypermilling Pruises, I don't doubt the Volt can do that too.

4. This was always going to be a slow ramp up vehicle with limited availability in the first few years.

5. As always, your mileage may vary.

1. It is more than an exhaust port and different tires away, isn't it? Here is what Anne Asensio, executive director, GM Design, said about the concept when if first came out, "“It couldn’t be a ‘science project,’ because that’s not what this car is all about. It had to be realistic, executable and carry the essence of the Chevrolet brand.” Imagine if the Camaro ended up looking like a Cobalt. That is what happened.

2. It was initially 30K, then up to 48K (Lutz), then well under 30K (Wagoner) now it is about 40K and then government incentives. Here's a nice summary

http://jalopnik.com/392689/2011-chevy-volt...ced-under-30000

3. GM initially claimed 50MPG on the ICE. That has not changed, even though the engine itself has.

4. GM Was very clear that it HAD to be a Chevy because it was a vehicle for the masses. Perhaps part of the problem is that GM started showing commercials of it in 2007... even though we now know that it will be 2015 before they plan to produce any real meaningful numbers... if they even hit their own targets. From what Lutz said on Letterman the Nov. 2010 seems to be a paper launch.

5. Just don't use the AC. Or the heat. Or go on the highway. Plus there was that nice nugget of PR when GM realized and announced that stereos use so much power.

Also, take a look back... GM was claiming 640 miles of range (gas an electric). Now that they have changed the gas tank size (although, in spite of the creation of the production intent vehicle, this is apparently still up in the air) it is looking like it will be more like 300. Not a big deal, but yet another example of how little they actually knew when they announced the Volt.

[hyperv6]

Just saw at Autoweek they drove the Volt mule. They claim it is nothing special.... But that is a good thing. They said it rode, drove and performed as a normal car even on full electric mode.

That is good news as most hybids and electic cars all have to be diven differently to take advantage of any savings in fuel. The Key to the Volt is it you will not have to change in you driving style or habits form a conventional car to be efficent. The only change you will need it to plug it in when you get home.

[CSpec]

Excellent. I don't think I would buy something like this, but this should sock it to the Prius crowd.

[Satty]

I'm still skeptical of GM's ability to get people to shell out that kind of money for the Volt. If they start the Volt at $40k, the Prius starts at $18k less, thats a big deal. If Lexus starts the HS 250 where the Prius tops out ($33k give or take) then GM will have to convince people to pay more for a Chevy thasn for a Lexus. GM will have to sell the technology hard and hope people are willing to pay a premium for it.

And dont give me any "tax credit" b.s. because the tax credit doesn't reduce the amount financed or monthly payments.

[hyperv6]

First thing we will all need to accept is the First Gen Volt will not be a run away sales hit. This is a car just as the first Prius that will intro a new technology and will provide the public with a veiw of a new way to drive and save. GM already has the work started on Gen 2 and three. We will then see this technology incorverated into more models and may even be incorperated as an option on many other models.

Lets face it the Prius was cheap and a run away sale hit till just in the last year. Even now sales are not great on Gen two as they are offering 0% on them now. When gas was up they took off. GM should do well with Gen two and Thress as the prices will drop and by then gas will be higher.

The key to all this is a car most will be able to drive to work daily on electric and still drive cross country with out alturing their daily driving habits. In other words you will beable to use the technology while driving normal and not have to feather the gas around town to keep the engine from kicking in.

We are not far away from better electric motors that will have more power, lighter and more efficent. The same with the batteries along with faster charging.

The job for the Volt is to set a new standard the industry will follow. This will give GM the lead in the future and with them clearing Chapter 11 they will be able to concentrait on this more and advance quickly.

My onlyt worry is with the Green House laws the goverment is playing with is how much more expensive are they going to drive electric rates in the future. Also will the utilities be able to keep up with the growing demand of electric. We already have problems in some areas of the country during peak hours in the summer.

The Volt one will be bought by the curious, the rich, the I have to have the first and the Evro nuts like Ed Begly Jr. [Note I respect Ed as he really practices what he preaches and has done so long before the the other Hollywood mental cases jumped on the PR train]. These people will buy enough of these cars to prove GM's system works. That is all they need them to do, They wil not recoupe the investment nor are they expected to.

So to sum it up the job of Volt Gen One is to sell itself as a reliable efficent way to drive normally. Once it proves itself the cheaper more efficent Gen two will look to making more volume and profit.

Edited May 29, 2009 by hyperv6

[Satty]

Its going to lose money, every first-gen hybrid loses money, but GM's problem is going to be convincing people to pay more for the Volt than comparable hybrids. If they cant convince people to fork over $40k on the first gen, there wont be a second gen. When it comes to taking buyers from other brands, GM is EPIC_FAIL.

[G. David Felt]

You all talk about how the Volt is not price competitive with the Prius. But the Prius is a compact and the Volt I thought was a mid size. Having a mid size is worth more to me than the cracker box Prius. I have ridden in them and hate them, they suck for comfort, intuitive, etc. I see nothing special and no reason to buy this (prius) boat anchor IMO. The volt alone on being amid size wins for me, wins more being an american built / sold from american company.

Edited May 29, 2009 by dfelt

[Satty]

The Volt is going to be about the same size as the Prius. And the '10 Prius is apparently more comfortable inside than the previous ones.

[G. David Felt]

Thanks Satty, That sucks as I thought it was going to be a mid size sedan to be differant than the Prius.

[Satty]

Thanks Satty, That sucks as I thought it was going to be a mid size sedan to be differant than the Prius.

Not sure why you were expecting midsize, its based on Delta II which is the basis for the ridiculously named Chevy Cruze.

[Z-06]

Here are Volt's basic specs

Wheelbase (in / mm): 105.7 / 2685 Length (in / mm): 177 / 4404 Width (in / mm): 70.8 / 1798 Height (in / mm): 56.3 / 1430 Cargo volume (cu ft / L): 10.6 / 301

Here are Prius' basic specs

Overall height/width/length

58.7/68.7/175.6

Wheelbase

106.3

[Satty]

Wow, doesn't the '10 Prius have like 20-something cubic feet of trunk space? The Volt has 10? Guess they really dnt intend for the Volt to be taken long distances.

[Z-06]

That is because of its hatchback body.

[Satty]

Plenty of non-hatchbacks have more than 10 cu.ft. Thats what the Genesis Coupe has, and that trunk looks nearly useless.

[PurdueGuy]

With their huge traditional lead acid battery plant in Canada and all the green house gas it produces, I would be suprised if Toyota went to LI. I suspect they will with their new Plug in Prius.

Yup, they definitely want to keep their lead acid battery plant chugging along. Except the Prius uses NiMH. Fail.

[hyperv6]

Its going to lose money, every first-gen hybrid loses money, but GM's problem is going to be convincing people to pay more for the Volt than comparable hybrids. If they cant convince people to fork over $40k on the first gen, there wont be a second gen. When it comes to taking buyers from other brands, GM is EPIC_FAIL.

Wrong as they will have a second gen and third gen of this technology no matter if they only sell a hand full of these cars.

The first gen Volt is a not for profit, non high volume car. This car was to create a system that works like a normal car and a system of suppliers and technology that was not even around a couple years ago. Now that they have created a parts and supplier network the progress should advance quickly.

Now if the sales are low and the price remains high on the Gen three then this car will be DOA.

Toyota is in great fear that this new system will prove itself and other companies will adopt it. Other are already waiting to use it soon. The Toyota is heavily invested in their own battery system that they will take a big hit if it goes the way of the Beta.

This hybid system fight is not unlike the Beta vs VCR battle of the 70's. The system that is adopted by the industry will be the winner. The Prius system is the first but it may not win if GM's system is proven reliable and the cost drop in the future.

The bottom line is this system does not live or die on the first $40K Volt. too many think this way and GM has made this clear from the start. The Prius is just now getting to the point where it is getting to the point it is improved and cheap.

Edited May 29, 2009 by hyperv6

[Satty]

The Prius didn't come to market with established competition. Chevy is going to have to get people out of the Prius, the HS 250, the Insight and the Fusion Hybrid, all of which cost significantly less and had a head start in the market. GM is going to have to convince people to fork over more money for a relatively unknown powertrain, if they can do that with the first gen, then GM is set, but it isn't going to be easy.

[hyperv6]

The Prius didn't come to market with established competition. Chevy is going to have to get people out of the Prius, the HS 250, the Insight and the Fusion Hybrid, all of which cost significantly less and had a head start in the market. GM is going to have to convince people to fork over more money for a relatively unknown powertrain, if they can do that with the first gen, then GM is set, but it isn't going to be easy.

No they did not. The Volt on the other hand is a whole new way of doing this. GM has stated there is no pressure on sales volume on the first gen. Now if the system proved to not be reliable or has issues. Also if they can not cut the price to make a profit by the third gen car then it will be a flop.

GM is trying to prove a better system and then get others to use this system. Note GM is now trying to get the industry to use a standard plug and other things needed to keep this system open to all MFG.

For the most part the first Volt is like the Impact. It is more a proof od concpet type car. But in this case it is a car they can sell to the public in small numbers to prove the system and have something to build upon.

the bottom line is the Volt is not competing for sales. The Gen one car is here to prove a better way to do a hybrid car vs the duel systems the others are using. The Volt is to make the Prius look like the Saturn Hypbid looks compared to the Prius.

The key is the electric drive as this system will provide a way to reach numbers in the future the Prius will never see. Even under gas power the performance will remain the same but the engine will be running at a preset level and stable efficent RPM.

GM needs to teach people how this system works like a train and how much more efficent it will be as batteries improve.

The key is it will not effect the way the average driver drives. That is one of the sticking points with 80% of the people who would not consider a hypbrid car.

Imagine a small diesel turbo in a Future Volt. Imagine the milage it would get with a engine designed only for this application.

The key for GM to show reliablility in the new car and how the system works. This is what they need to sell to the public not cars with the first gen. Now once they sell the idea and improve on it then the sale of a car that will compete price wise with the Prius will be improtant.

I expect we will see advanced Volts in just a year or two. GM also state they will be able to down load and upgrade the first cars with the new advances with down loads. Firmware upgrades for cars is something that will radically change early cars vs nothing much can be done other than body kits for the present duel modes.

I have never been a Hybrid fan but the Volt system is what I always wondered why no one ever worked on. Now the technology is being developed so it will become a reality. It is a better system but now the public need to learn about it and accept it as the better system.

It will be 5-6 years before we know if GM has sold the public and industry on this system. If they can reduce the cost and show it works they will sell this tech to the other companies. Some are already invested.

[regfootball]

the ecoweenies created the perfect trifecta.

gas prices will go up because they know to price it high enough until it breaks our pocketbooks. use less gas? price fuel higher.

now we'll be using electricity. we'll need more so the monopolistic utilities will keep asking for higher rates.

the cars will need to get smaller and crackerboxy to please the weiners.

we'll end up with small crackerboxes that are no fun, are smaller than we want and we'll be paying more.

prius doesn't need to worry about volt. insight will steal a lot of prius business in the meantime. neither car has any attributes people will buy aside from high mpg.

Lexus HS? Huge joke. Anyone who buys that.....my gosh.

GM has to produce the volt because of how they killed the EV. This is payback. Even if it loses tons of money, there is no way they cannot sell this car.

Edited May 30, 2009 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

I still maintain that the Volt will surprise a great many people.

[Chevy Nick]

People will buy this car not because it will save them money, they will buy it on principle. I can drive my 15 mile commute everyday and not send a penny to the middle eastern countries that would destroy me? Sign me up.

[hyperv6]

I still maintain that the Volt will surprise a great many people.

I agree as it will be the first car you can drive like a normal car and reap the full benifit.

I also have a gut feeling the 40 mile Electric mode may go higher by realease time. I suspect GM is conservitive here just incase they had issues.

[87Chevette]

Energize GM!!

I for one think this car will save them. Be it by perception of green-car ability or by perception of their engineering excellence. The only problem is that they can't build them fast enough!

[hyperv6]

Energize GM!!

I for one think this car will save them. Be it by perception of green-car ability or by perception of their engineering excellence. The only problem is that they can't build them fast enough!

The Gen one Volt will not save GM but it will need to sell the system and type system to the public. If GM sets the standard it will lead the race for this technology.

I would be shocked [pun intended] if this car sells the idea that this system works and will set the trend for futute electric cars.

The only thing GM needs to do with the first car is prove it is a better system. Prove it works as promised. That it is reliable and has no problems. IF GM comes out with the Volt and it has a recall or under performs in anyway the press and the powers who work against GM will be all over it. GM needs to make this a flawless vehicle form the start as they will not get a second chance even on some BS thing. Just look how they jumped all over the Battery cable recall on the Camaro. There are people out there payed to make sure GM fails and they will be watching.

That is why I think they have under promised on the mileage just has they do on HP on present cars.

[87Chevette]

The IDEA (imho) will save GM's "green" image, but as you said.. ONLY ONLY ONLY if it is PERFECT!

I could'nt agree with your point more. Perhaps I was too giddy when I said the ONLY problem was that they cant build them fast enough.. when infact, there are alot more problems..

1) It has to be reliable (works every time, and the batteries last a long time)

2) It has to be powerful (approaching hills, raw speed, and take-off have to have oomph)

3) It has to be efficient (Beat the street on that range number), and finally...

4) The Idiot public has to buy in, rather than go out and buy more stupid priuses.

[hyperv6]

The Gen one Volt will not save GM but it will need to sell the system and type system to the public. If GM sets the standard it will lead the race for this technology.

I would be shocked [pun intended] if this car sells the idea that this system works and will set the trend for futute electric cars.

The only thing GM needs to do with the first car is prove it is a better system. Prove it works as promised. That it is reliable and has no problems. IF GM comes out with the Volt and it has a recall or under performs in anyway the press and the powers who work against GM will be all over it. GM needs to make this a flawless vehicle form the start as they will not get a second chance even on some BS thing. Just look how they jumped all over the Battery cable recall on the Camaro. There are people out there payed to make sure GM fails and they will be watching.

That is why I think they have under promised on the mileage just has they do on HP on present cars.

1 Reliable is yet to be seen.

2 The mules driven have performed under electric as well or better than most gas powered cars.

3. Efficent is a given with 40 miles on electric already.

4 The first gen Volt is prove of concept to the public. Its job is to prove this systme works and is better than the Prius.

How many year has it taken the Prius to get to this point. It has not been an over night sales secsess. At least now with the Volt the topic of electric cars is open to a larger goup and they are now willing to look and better understand what it is about.

Chevy really will need to educate people on how the Volt works and the Prius works. The Voilt system should sell itself once they understand the differance.

For those who drove the Mule in the press they have claimed it nothing special and it drives like a normal car. That is the best compliment this kind of car can get. To drive an Prius in a mode where it gives you fiull savings it is not driven like a normal car. It is like Hypermiling a gas car to keep it in electric power. The Volt just stand on it.

[GXT]

People will buy this car not because it will save them money, they will buy it on principle. I can drive my 15 mile commute everyday and not send a penny to the middle eastern countries that would destroy me? Sign me up.

This sounds great in theory, but the tradeoffs are very large. I would rather have a loaded CTS with a little cash to spare. So I assume you drive a Prius now or some other 40-50MPG hybrid so as to at least limit your gas use?

The Prius, Insight, Fit, etc. are going to be widely available and for 10-20+K less. By and large people who set out to "save gas" or "save the US from oil dependence" will come home with one of these cars, not the Volt. Even if the economics or the "the Prius/Insight/etc. is good enough" doesn't deter these people from buying the Volt, the limited volume and limited market availability will.

Due to this limited volume and the delays to market, the Volt will simply not have as much impact on oil independence as the Prius, Insight, etc.

[FloydHendershot]

This sounds great in theory, but the tradeoffs are very large. I would rather have a loaded CTS with a little cash to spare. So I assume you drive a Prius now or some other 40-50MPG hybrid so as to at least limit your gas use?

The Prius, Insight, Fit, etc. are going to be widely available and for 10-20+K less. By and large people who set out to "save gas" or "save the US from oil dependence" will come home with one of these cars, not the Volt. Even if the economics or the "the Prius/Insight/etc. is good enough" doesn't deter these people from buying the Volt, the limited volume and limited market availability will.

Due to this limited volume and the delays to market, the Volt will simply not have as much impact on oil independence as the Prius, Insight, etc.

What "large" tradeoffs? The 'principle' is on a 15 mile commute there is no "gas" at all to factor in so there is nothing to be "saved" It is ZERO.

Thats the "principle"

Last I heard if the "Prius" moves "one inch" under its own "power" it is going to ""consume" "gas"".

It will impact ""oil "dependence"" or more precisely "influence" said "dependence" as much as the other "examples" you mentioned but on 'principle' is a fantastic notion and hope its "message" becomes a widespread reality.

Edited June 1, 2009 by FloydHendershot

[hyperv6]

The Volt has no compitition as it is a whole different car. The first models will be bought by those who want to drive this kind of car. They are the same kind of person who bought the first over priced Prius.

Read the review in the new Autoweek that just came out. They were very impressed with the car. They only drove the test mule in a Cruze with no gas engine drive hooked up. Imagine once they get the full production car. I seldom hear anyone in the press impressed with a test mule but here they loved it.

Note they said driving the Volt in electric mode was like a normal car and not like a lab experiment like so many other electric cars. If anything they said it was as quiet and smooth as some of the most expensive cars on the market.

[GXT]

What "large" tradeoffs? The 'principle' is on a 15 mile commute there is no "gas" at all to factor in so there is nothing to be "saved" It is ZERO.

Thats the "principle"

Well that isn't true (anyone who lives in a relatively cold climate will have the ICE start when the car starts... hey a compromise!), but even if it was, I didn't realize that GAS was the only consideration when buying a car. I assume you drive one of those solar powered vehicles that is less than a foot off the ground and that you use a shoehorn to get into?

When you get beyond the PR there are very large tradeoffs:

- As I wrote, I could have a loaded luxury performance sedan in the CTS with cash to spare for the price of the compact, entry-level Volt (it is essentially the Cruze after all).

- The CTS is widely available now with incentives from GM for me to buy one whereas the Volt will be available only in a few years and at that time only in select markets and only in limited numbers.

- I could have blistering performance from the CTS or 4cyl performance from the Volt.

- I could have lots of hauling room in a CTS or a little Cruze-bodied Volt.

- I could use the AC or Heat when driving in the CTS for little/no penalty or I could go without in the Volt because my electric range would be cut by 25%.

- I could take a weekly trip to the gas station with the CTS or I could plug in and unplug my Volt a couple times a day and go to the gas station once a month.... assuming I even have access to a garage or a place to plug in.

- I could have "proven" technology with the CTS or I could buy a first-gen car that will be obsolete so fast it will bring a new definition to depreciation... even for GM. (Did you know that they say that a nav system in your car actually hurts your resale? It is because when you go to sell it is beyond outdated... think 8-track. The Volt will be that, but for the whole car.)

- Where I live it is cold enough that the Volt will likely run the ICE immediately on start-up and for the majority of my commute for over half the year.

- I could have a car that requires known ICE-related maintenance or I could have a car that requires that maintenance as well as a 1st-gen electric system to maintain including a multi-thousand dollar battery replacement in 10 years.

- My commute is so short (as, IIRC, is the commute of approx. the majority of americans) that I would almost never use half of the available battery. And since only half of the physical battery is used as available battery, I am effectively only using 4KWh of the 16KWh pack. But I get to haul the rest around all the time.

Last I heard if the "Prius" moves "one inch" under its own "power" it is going to ""consume" "gas"".

It will impact ""oil "dependence"" or more precisely "influence" said "dependence" as much as the other "examples" you mentioned but on 'principle' is a fantastic notion and hope its "message" becomes a widespread reality.

You still aren't considering all factors. This is rough math, but I hope it conveys the point. By GM's own optimistic numbers the Volt may have 10,000 units on the road by the end of 2011. Assume they all use only electic power (not likely) and drive 15,000 miles/year (not likely). Each Volt will save 600 gallons compared to a 25 MPG car (best-case for the Volt). A 50MPG Prius will save 300 gallons. So Toyota only needs to have two prius on the road for every Volt to effectively save the same amount of fuel. By the end of 2011 GM's 10,000 Volt will have saved perhaps 3 Million gallons. By that same point the Prius that have been on the road since 2000 (at which point GM was maligning them) will have saved ~1.5 BILLION gallons. Not only that there will be ~1.2 Million of them to the Volt's 10,000. And 10,000 is a far cry from the 600,000 they would nee to have a hope of having a similar impact as the Prius in 2012.

There are tradeoffs with the Volt. And the biggest that you need to worry about in your oil argument is that:

1) It isn't economical so GM won't want to sell them and people won't tend to buy them.

2) It has taken a long time to get to market so it has wasted fuel that could have been saved in the meantime

3) It will take a long time to roll out.

Compared to a profitable mass-market vehicle it will not have the same impact. More to the point, it has stopped GM from actually providing a good small hybrid that would have saved that much more fuel (see: Toyota and the Prius).

For GM, it was never about the right solution... from the beginning it was compromise by a company blinded with Prius-envy. But Don't take it from me, take it from Lutz:

"He told GM VP Jon Lauckner, known as ‘the Wizard’ he wanted a “game changing” electric car that would leapfrog the Prius and deliver 150 miles of pure electric range. Lauckner said it would be “too expensive” and furiously scribbled calculations that would be his solution of the Volt’s range extender design."

http://gm-volt.com/2009/06/07/bob-lutz-and...the-chevy-volt/

Edited June 7, 2009 by GXT