R.I.P GM as we know it

[BuddyP]

They made it 100 years before death by gov't. Thought we could share some of the past in this post.....

[BuddyP]

[Northstar]

I, for one, will never buy a car from Government Motors. Not even a Corvette. I'll be looking at Porsche's, BMW's, and Audi's. Perhaps a 370Z or the like as well. Mustang's too common.

[daves87rs]

[gm4life]

I, for one, will never buy a car from Government Motors. Not even a Corvette. I'll be looking at Porsche's, BMW's, and Audi's. Perhaps a 370Z or the like as well. Mustang's too common.

Well I am hoping something good comes from this or that next president tells GM either do buisness like you should in a free market or die.

[FAPTurbo]

Whooa, aren't we jumping the gun here a lil' bit?

[trinacriabob]

Well I am hoping something good comes from this or that next president tells GM either do buisness like you should in a free market or die.

Wow, it's amazing that capital intensive businesses can't seem to operate without government intervention (airlines, now automakers)...

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

How is this the governments fault? It's GMs fault for even approaching the government for a loan in the first place! The government merely built upon it and made it worse.

Its analogous to someone giving you a broken toy which you decide to try and "fix" even though you have no clue what the !@#$ your doing and end up breaking it more... of course it was broken the entire time.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well I am hoping something good comes from this or that next president tells GM either do buisness like you should in a free market or die.

We're not in a free market and haven't been in one for over 100 years. If the government had said that 30 years ago, there'd be no Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge, or Jeep.

All of you anti-government people really need to put down your Reagen tribute books (because he's the one who made it cool to vilify government) and get over yourselves. Government is NOT the root of all evil. It is not the end of GM. We're not going to be all driving Eco-Trabants.

I hope you like your Audi's and Porches built by a company PARTIALLY OWNED BY THE GERMAN STATE OF LOWER SAXONY!

France owns about 15% of Renault who owns 49% of Nissan.

You people need a hard slap in the face and calm the f@#k down.

Edit: This is one of those times I wish I wasn't a mod and we didn't have politics rules so I could really kick the crap out of you people on here. This was a nice, yet unnecessary, tribute thread, ruined by idiot politics.

[z28luvr01]

Whatever you think of government intervention, the fact remains that, had it not interfered when it did, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Tata, Chery, Geely, etc. would all be feasting on GM's remains as of right now. Everyone needs to calm down and let things shake out.

[Dsuupr]

We're not in a free market and haven't been in one for over 100 years. If the government had said that 30 years ago, there'd be no Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge, or Jeep.

All of you anti-government people really need to put down your Reagen tribute books (because he's the one who made it cool to vilify government) and get over yourselves. Government is NOT the root of all evil. It is not the end of GM. We're not going to be all driving Eco-Trabants.

I hope you like your Audi's and Porches built by a company PARTIALLY OWNED BY THE GERMAN STATE OF LOWER SAXONY!

France owns about 15% of Renault who owns 49% of Nissan.

You people need a hard slap in the face and calm the f@#k down.

Edit: This is one of those times I wish I wasn't a mod and we didn't have politics rules so I could really kick the crap out of you people on here. This was a nice, yet unnecessary, tribute thread, ruined by idiot politics.

Well put. Thank you.

[K.C.]

I, for one, will never buy a car from Government Motors. Not even a Corvette. I'll be looking at Porsche's, BMW's, and Audi's. Perhaps a 370Z or the like as well. Mustang's too common.

+1. I have bought my last car from GM as well. Something about the government taking over the company just does not sit right with me. I'm saddened by it, but I understand.

For the next round, I will defect to Ford.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I, for one, will never buy a car from Government Motors. Not even a Corvette. I'll be looking at Porsche's, BMW's, and Audi's. Perhaps a 370Z or the like as well. Mustang's too common.

I agree. Lets see what GM looks like in a few years once these new fuel economy regs come into effect, while under the governments control. I doubt they will have anything left that I would buy.

That the government gets a free pass from some people for all they do wrong amazes me. They forced some healthy banks to take a bailout, but who gets the negative press? Not the government, but the healthy banks, for taking a bailout. The government is the invisible hand behind a lot of things that are happening, and will continue to be the invisible hand behind what happens with GM.

[Drew Dowdell]

That the government gets all this attention from the tinfoil hat brigade for anything they ever do, amazes me.

Those same fuel economy regs will hit BMW, Audi and Nissan too. If Cadillac can no longer build a CTS, then the 3-series will have passed on also. The 370Z will be pushing up the daisies right next to the Camaro. The Tundra, F-150, and Silverado will together all rip down the curtain and join the choir invisible!

There were NO national banks that were healthy. NONE. About the only organizations that are (relatively) healthy are the credit unions.

If the government had done nothing, we'd be a GM historical site and nothing more.

[trinacriabob]

For the next round, I will defect to Ford.

If that next round were right now, ditto. I'd be looking at a new Mercury Milan* or the 2010 Ford Taurus, a notch up in price point.

*right, ocn, I too don't like it when you can configure a base engine (2.5) with some nicer interior trims (wrapped steering wheel, wood inserts) nor alloy wheels...that's nuts...

[trinacriabob]

Awesome, Joseph.

Electra: I remember when the bigger 4.1 V6 with a 4-bbl was brought on to power the bigger cars in the early 80s. I believe you could opt up in the mid-size cars, like the Regal

Grand Prix: that dash, that dash

Monte Carlo: I hardly think the dude in the suit across the street from what looks like Central Park West could get these chicks if he drove around Manhattan in a Monte Carlo

[BuddyP]

If the government had done nothing, we'd be a GM historical site and nothing more.

GM would've been just fine in Chapt. 11. They would've purged their own system and ditched the Union instead of Pontiac! This is where the gov't intervention went wrong. Now that the economy is in the dumps and people aren't buying, let's put more regulations on cars and EPA to raise the cost of new cars even more.... BAAAA!

Sorry... I do feel better today though. But something better "change" for the better with this process in the next couple months.

Edited May 20, 2009 by BuddyP

[Drew Dowdell]

+1. I have bought my last car from GM as well. Something about the government taking over the company just does not sit right with me. I'm saddened by it, but I understand.

For the next round, I will defect to Ford.

We appear to have $h!ty ass logic flu rapidly spreading around Cheers and Gears.

How will GM EVER get better if you won't buy their product!?

[Drew Dowdell]

If that next round were right now, ditto. I'd be looking at a new Mercury Milan* or the 2010 Ford Taurus, a notch up in price point.

*right, ocn, I too don't like it when you can configure a base engine (2.5) with some nicer interior trims (wrapped steering wheel, wood inserts) nor alloy wheels...that's nuts...

Yet another victim of the $h!ty ass logic flu.....

[Drew Dowdell]

A huge majority of local national banks and community banks were and are still just fine. Nobody should've given anybody any bailout money. Let the system purge itself.

GM would've been just fine in Chapt. 11. They would've purged their own system and ditched the Union instead of Pontiac! This is where the gov't intervention went wrong.

The government didn't tell GM to ditch Pontiac. GM's own viability plan... wasn't. It projected losses out to 2014 at least!

ANY BANK...or any one with opposable thumbs and a pulse would have declined GM's loan application with that viability plan.

OBAMA DID NOT KILL PONTIAC!

[z28luvr01]

GM would've been just fine in Chapt. 11. They would've purged their own system and ditched the Union instead of Pontiac! This is where the gov't intervention went wrong. Now that the economy is in the dumps and people aren't buying, let's put more regulations on cars and EPA to raise the cost of new cars even more.... BAAAA!

Sorry... I do feel better today though. But something better "change" for the better with this process in the next couple months.

And had they done that at the time, they'd have gone right into Chapter 7. When debts > assets as it is with GM, that's what happens in the real world.

[trinacriabob]

Yet another victim of the $h!ty ass logic flu.....

No, Drew, not really. I've always shopped for a very specific type of car that GM served up...offering me numerous choices, actually. Of course I would buy from GM again.

However, at this juncture, I don't like their offerings. Their mid-size sport sedan offerings have withered into nothing. I've complained on the Buick thread about the new LaCrosse with its ridiculous and not-so original profile...and am in the minority. In the last gen model, the LaCrosse kicked ass on the Taurus. In this go-round, the tables have turned. That's what I'm talking about. And I'm not happy that I have to acknowledge that.

[Drew Dowdell]

No, Drew, not really. I've always shopped for a very specific type of car that GM served up...offering me numerous choices, actually. Of course I would buy from GM again.

However, at this juncture, I don't like their offerings. Their mid-size sport sedan offerings have withered into nothing. I've complained on the Buick thread about the new LaCrosse with its ridiculous and not-so original profile...and am in the minority. In the last gen model, the LaCrosse kicked ass on the Taurus. In this go-round, the tables have turned. That's what I'm talking about. And I'm not happy that I have to acknowledge that.

Then I misunderstood you. I took you to mean that you wouldn't buy a GM car because of the loan or the government or something like that. That is the primary symptom of $h!ty ass logic flu.

I completely understand and support purchase decisions based on product.

[trinacriabob]

Joe added some of the things he liked. Here's my favorite, as you all know (obtained from consumerguide auto.how stuff works).

Stunning!

[gm4life]

OBAMA DID NOT KILL PONTIAC!

Nor did he help it. Trust me he said more cuts had to be made, not what had to be cut. So Pontiac went.

Oldsmoboi I think you are trying to remain positive which is good, having said that I am being realistic. We have a true disagreement about the role of government in our society, fine. I am upset with GM for asking government for money from Bush, he should have said no, fix it yourselfs. I am upset at Obama and his worthless auto-task force who KNOW NOTHING about cars thinking if they run it, they can fix it, uhhhh yeah right. It is this belief that government can fix things, I think they have fixed enough that past few years, yes even under Bush. I know we don't totally have a free market but what we are going towards now looks even less like one. I don't want GM to become Government Motors or worse yet Green Motors, and if you don't see this as a possible outcome fine, but many of us do. I want GM to be run the way it should be owned by investors not government, and building products consumers demand not government. I don't know why you think disagreeing or looking at government in a different way is a bad thing. I think alot of $h! is going to happen with regulation and will regulate ourselfs to death and send more jobs over-seas. Wait until we cap trade, oh yes we will be in for it. The auto industry will be killed by more things than just taking government money. I have spoke my mind, it is a disagreement about the role of government. I don't like any big government, republican or dem.

I hope the bond-holders don't cave and let the company become "Government Motors" and if you think were nuts of thinking it fine, but we see it as an option. After someone in my family gets a new Camaro, we might even move to Ford. This will depend upon what happens, if we get a president who tells GM get off the government dole and fix your own problems in four years I would love to see that. It can be a democrat or republican, and I would be happy.

[z28luvr01]

Whatever you think of government intervention, the fact remains that, had it not interfered when it did, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Tata, Chery, Geely, etc. would all be feasting on GM's remains as of right now. Everyone needs to calm down and let things shake out.

And had they done that at the time, they'd have gone right into Chapter 7. When debts > assets as it is with GM, that's what happens in the real world.

[gm4life]

We do need to let things shake out z28, I do have some hope. I will take a Union run compnay not great but at least it gives then incentive to survive. I really hope a traditional company and chapter 11 filing emerge that is what GM needs, if the bond-holders don't get "pushed" like they did at Chrysler we might actually be okay. If government even gets a small stake in them fine, but the Union and private investors need to have the majority. You are right we should wait and see. Time will show all.

[FAPTurbo]

It's weird, because I think GM, even in it's state today, offers much better products than the GM of old. The current Camaro is much better than any sports car GM has produced before, save for the C6 which itself is making vehicles that cost 5-6 times as much look bad. Cadillac's CTS is now playing ball with the big boys, and the Malibu is the most compelling FWD mid-size sedan out of GM yet. The engine/transmission technology GM is employing is cutting edge, and there's Voltec coming out.

Honestly, although I'm not a huge fan of huge government interventions, I don't believe the government is going to mess with the winners here, and it's not as if they could do much worse than GM has done when totally private.

And if I were in charge of cutting programs, Pontiac would've been #1 on the list, because save for the G8, which can easily be a Chevy, and the Solstice, none of their products were anything special, and were just rebadges, or reskins, or lousy products, or lousy reskinned products. It's unfortunate, but when your back's at the wall, you got to make hard calls.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Captainbooyah

[gm4life]

It's weird, because I think GM, even in it's state today, offers much better products than the GM of old. The current Camaro is much better than any sports car GM has produced before, save for the C6 which itself is making vehicles that cost 5-6 times as much look bad. Cadillac's CTS is now playing ball with the big boys, and the Malibu is the most compelling FWD mid-size sedan out of GM yet. The engine/transmission technology GM is employing is cutting edge, and there's Voltec coming out.

I couldn't agree more. GM has REALLY great cars out, even non-GM I know people admit it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Nor did he help it. Trust me he said more cuts had to be made, not what had to be cut. So Pontiac went.

Oldsmoboi I think you are trying to remain positive which is good, having said that I am being realistic. We have a true disagreement about the role of government in our society, fine. I am upset with GM for asking government for money from Bush, he should have said no, fix it yourselfs. I am upset at Obama and his worthless auto-task force who KNOW NOTHING about cars thinking if they run it, they can fix it, uhhhh yeah right. It is this belief that government can fix things, I think they have fixed enough that past few years, yes even under Bush. I know we don't totally have a free market but what we are going towards now looks even less like one. I don't want GM to become Government Motors or worse yet Green Motors, and if you don't see this as a possible outcome fine, but many of us do. I want GM to be run the way it should be owned by investors not government, and building products consumers demand not government. I don't know why you think disagreeing or looking at government in a different way is a bad thing. I think alot of $h! is going to happen with regulation and will regulate ourselfs to death and send more jobs over-seas. Wait until we cap trade, oh yes we will be in for it. The auto industry will be killed by more things than just taking government money. I have spoke my mind, it is a disagreement about the role of government. I don't like any big government, republican or dem.

I hope the bond-holders don't cave and let the company become "Government Motors" and if you think were nuts of thinking it fine, but we see it as an option. After someone in my family gets a new Camaro, we might even move to Ford. This will depend upon what happens, if we get a president who tells GM get off the government dole and fix your own problems in four years I would love to see that. It can be a democrat or republican, and I would be happy.

If the government had done nothing, C&G would be a GM Historical site and nothing more. The Government was the ONLY entity that was able to save GM unless Toyota came in and plunked down the $2 billion cash for all of the common stock..... would you have been happier with that?

But above all of that, understand this:

THERE CAN BE NO CHAPTER 11 WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT BEING INVOLVED IN A MAJOR WAY.

IF GM went into bankruptcy without the government help, it would be Chapter 7 and everything would have been sold off into nothingness. Guess who'd be buying.... the Chinese.. the Indians.....maybe the Russians.... they're the only ones left with money.

The government did this same thing with Chrysler and Chrysler emerged to be a substantially stronger company in just a few short years. The advantage GM has here over Chrysler is that unlike Chrysler 35 years ago, GM has a large portfolio of excellent platforms and products.

Go to Ford if you want.... but do it for the right reason. Don't go to Ford because you want to punish GM for trying to save themselves.... you're only exacerbating the problem. Go to Ford because you feel the product is superior. If you buy a Ford even though you think GM has a better product... well then maybe Cheers and Gears isn't the place for you.

[BuddyP]

The government did this same thing with Chrysler and Chrysler emerged to be a substantially stronger company in just a few short years. The advantage GM has here over Chrysler is that unlike Chrysler 35 years ago, GM has a large portfolio of excellent platforms and products.

But the gov't didn't take full control, buy up majority stake, limit pay limits, tell depters (who get paid first in any other bankruptcy) that they can basically take stock worth $0.10 on the dollar or nothing at all. That was also before the Japanese makers had a stronghold and decent size market share. What's happening now is no different than how Hugo Chevez took over the oil companies in Venezuela. How ironic that now that the gov't owns majority in the company that it now doesn't have to pay back the loans... huh, how about that. I said this would happen back when they first gave em the money. I support GM for the history, the love of cars, the engineering and design teams. Not for the politics which will drive it into ground.

Not saying I won't buy another GM vehicle, my next daily driver may be a Cobalt SS. I'll still give em til the end of the year to see what is really going to come out of this. I do NOT want GM to get driven into the ground, I also do not want to see Camaro, Corvette, GM performance devision or any other niche/specialty vehicle or progam to get axed because of an administrations unproven theory on global warming or using the "bad use of taxpayer money" excuse. The Hot Rod Power Tours stop at the Tech Center this year has been cancelled because of the use of "tax payer money" to set it up.......thanks Obbie admin!! Yes I was looking forward to it and was going to drive up there on June 9th. I'm also worried as to what will happen for the Woodward Dreamcruise in August also.

I always make purchase decisions based on product, that is why I can tell you that when GM starts importing Buicks from China, I will NOT be buying one.

But above all of that, understand this:

THERE CAN BE NO CHAPTER 11 WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT BEING INVOLVED IN A MAJOR WAY.

There's a difference between being "involved" and "taking over"

Edited May 20, 2009 by BuddyP

[A Horse With No Name]

We're not in a free market and haven't been in one for over 100 years. If the government had said that 30 years ago, there'd be no Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge, or Jeep.

All of you anti-government people really need to put down your Reagen tribute books (because he's the one who made it cool to vilify government) and get over yourselves. Government is NOT the root of all evil. It is not the end of GM. We're not going to be all driving Eco-Trabants.

I hope you like your Audi's and Porches built by a company PARTIALLY OWNED BY THE GERMAN STATE OF LOWER SAXONY!

France owns about 15% of Renault who owns 49% of Nissan.

You people need a hard slap in the face and calm the f@#k down.

Edit: This is one of those times I wish I wasn't a mod and we didn't have politics rules so I could really kick the crap out of you people on here. This was a nice, yet unnecessary, tribute thread, ruined by idiot politics.

Non Political thread...but here's my two cents...while I hate Reagan, I damn sure enjoyed riding around in my buddy Shawn's brand new 84 TA with the T-tops out when Reagan was president.

Not everything about the 80's was bad....

But the thread was over with the first pic in the first post. The Hurst Cutty is one of the coolest cars GM ever built. Everything else so far in this thread is just a foot note...

Now if we had a 55 Bel Air or a 65 GTO pic...that might be a different story.

Chris

[gm4life]

If the government had done nothing, C&G would be a GM Historical site and nothing more. The Government was the ONLY entity that was able to save GM unless Toyota came in and plunked down the $2 billion cash for all of the common stock..... would you have been happier with that?

But above all of that, understand this:

THERE CAN BE NO CHAPTER 11 WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT BEING INVOLVED IN A MAJOR WAY.

IF GM went into bankruptcy without the government help, it would be Chapter 7 and everything would have been sold off into nothingness. Guess who'd be buying.... the Chinese.. the Indians.....maybe the Russians.... they're the only ones left with money.

The government did this same thing with Chrysler and Chrysler emerged to be a substantially stronger company in just a few short years. The advantage GM has here over Chrysler is that unlike Chrysler 35 years ago, GM has a large portfolio of excellent platforms and products.

Go to Ford if you want.... but do it for the right reason. Don't go to Ford because you want to punish GM for trying to save themselves.... you're only exacerbating the problem. Go to Ford because you feel the product is superior. If you buy a Ford even though you think GM has a better product... well then maybe Cheers and Gears isn't the place for you.

I respectfully disagree with 100 percent. GM would be is so much better shape now had it filed for chapter 11 this past fall. General Motors would not go away but come out a sucessful lean company that could actually build a car, for a profit. GM would still be around and it alot better shape, other compaines have done it and it worked fine for them. C&G would not be a historical site either, because GM would be around without government oxygen. I think GM has better products than Ford or at least some, but I would go to Ford only because I don't want a car from government motors. I will just have to buy used, I will turn into someone like 68 who is around here to celebrate the past of a once great American company. A company that was free from government and could build anything they wanted to, and nothing was standing in their way. Not government. Not cafe. That is the days I am going to have to celebrate because aside of the GMT-900's, Camaro, Malibu, CTS, DTS, STS, and Enclave GM has no products I would consider or even desire to afford. Sorry end of story. The best days our behind us, but government has run so many things so well right?

I will not support GOVERNMENT MOTORS, but I will support a privately/union owned GENERAL MOTORS. Big difference if government has a controling stake rest assured after a Camaro I may very well be done with GM. First they killed Olds, then Pontiac and now could be owned by the government. Three strikes your out.

As far as C&G being the right place for me, of course it is we are GM's biggest fans (I am one) and toughest critics (I am one of those too). Look at what I am saying about getting into bed with big government and GM's great products in the same breath. Sorry C&G is as right for me as anyone. I have a view different than yours and disagree in the outcome of a chapter 11. GM doesn't need governments help, just like me, I want them out of my life.

[A Horse With No Name]

Then I misunderstood you. I took you to mean that you wouldn't buy a GM car because of the loan or the government or something like that. That is the primary symptom of $h!ty ass logic flu.

I completely understand and support purchase decisions based on product.

Then you won't be offended if the Cobalt SS generates more than a little automotive lust in me?

We're all still GM guys in one way or another.

Glad you've got an open mind, Drew. Also glad that unlike other posters your mind hasn't fallen out on the pavement.

Chris

[gm4life]

Glad you've got an open mind, Drew. Also glad that unlike other posters your mind hasn't fallen out on the pavement.

Mine has been sitting on the road a few months now. :AH-HA_wink:

[A Horse With No Name]

I will just have to buy used, I will turn into someone like 68 who is around here to celebrate the past of a once great American company.

As far as C&G being the right place for me, of course it is we are GM's biggest fans (I am one) and toughest critics (I am one of those too). Look at what I am saying about getting into bed with big government and GM's great products in the same breath. Sorry C&G is as right for me as anyone. I have a view different than yours and disagree in the outcome of a chapter 11. GM doesn't need governments help, just like me, I want them out of my life.

If your going to turn into someone like Sixty-Eight, my sawzall will be attacking that nice pretty Impala soon to be sitting in your driveway to take out the B post thingie....

Seriously...as far as the government goes...If I had that Impala...I would take it to lunch with friends, where the employees at the resteraunt would be educated in government run schools. I would drive it on government owned highways, and enjoy a vaccation in a government provided national park. I would use government police to keep it safe, and government prisons to lock up anyone who tried to steal it or hurt me while I was driving it.

The government does a lot of good things. My wife works for a local community college, and they help a lot of people get their lives on track.

I'm all for the government saving GM, as I think GM is worth saving.

Chris

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

My wife works for a local community college, and they help a lot of people get their lives on track.

I'm all for the government saving GM, as I think GM is worth saving.

Chris

Community colleges are typically local, or state government things, not federal.

I have huge problems with the FEDERAL government doing this stuff, States obviously have the right to do stuff like this if they want.

[gm4life]

If your going to turn into someone like Sixty-Eight, my sawzall will be attacking that nice pretty Impala soon to be sitting in your driveway to take out the B post thingie....

Seriously...as far as the government goes...If I had that Impala...I would take it to lunch with friends, where the employees at the resteraunt would be educated in government run schools. I would drive it on government owned highways, and enjoy a vaccation in a government provided national park. I would use government police to keep it safe, and government prisons to lock up anyone who tried to steal it or hurt me while I was driving it.

The government does a lot of good things. My wife works for a local community college, and they help a lot of people get their lives on track.

I'm all for the government saving GM, as I think GM is worth saving.

Chris

I can agree on this with communtiy colleges are great my son is attending one, my wife graduated from one. I believe government has its place and needs to provide basic services and such as you mentioned. Nationalizing a once private and sucessful company like GM and banks is not what they are around for. Government has its place and I love National Parks but, government also has limitations. Did I ever say all government was bad, seriously. Chris I have alot of respect for you and Oldsmoboi but just disagree with you about some key issues. That is okay and the freedom to do that makes our country great. I hope you guys are right that this turns out okay. Having said that I am not holding breath.

[A Horse With No Name]

Mine has been sitting on the road a few months now. :AH-HA_wink:

You were NOT the person I was thinking of...and your an Idiot if you thought that I thought you were an Idiot.

Back to the debate, my friends.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

...oh...and I want to see GM get through this and go back to being a privately owned company. I am not for GM being owned by the government forever.

...and yes I believe government has their limitations, and no I never thought you said that all government was bad, gm4life.

We can disagree about religion and politics...but thankfully we both love GM.

Chris

[gm4life]

You were NOT the person I was thinking of...and your an Idiot if you thought that I thought you were an Idiot.

Back to the debate, my friends.

Chris

No I am just pulling your leg. Actually tho I have "lost it" to a certain degree.

[gm4life]

...oh...and I want to see GM get through this and go back to being a privately owned company. I am not for GM being owned by the government forever.

...and yes I believe government has their limitations, and no I never thought you said that all government was bad, gm4life.

We can disagree about religion and politics...but thankfully we both love GM.

Chris

Chris even though I disagree with you I still like you. No doubt I still like GM and think good can come from all this. Here's to hoping.

[SAmadei]

Nor did he help it. Trust me he said more cuts had to be made, not what had to be cut. So Pontiac went.

And regardless of some folks' diatribes about rebadges, Pontiac was GM's third highest seller. To kill that, simply is absurd... when SAAB, Saturn, Hummer, Buick, Cadillac all sell less, they should have gone first... the niche plan of a G8/Solstice only Pontiac was fine with me.

I don't care if GM is government owned or controlled. They already demonstrated stupicidial actions from the board. A chapter 7 or 11 would give someone (Penske, maybe) the chance to fix things properly.

In any case, with the discontinuation of the G8, I'm out of the GM buyer demographic. With the discontinuation of Pontiac ( and still annoyed with the loss of Olds), I will be boycotting the purchases of new GM product while a Pontiac is not available for purchase. Used GM cars are still possible... at least until they are boring or too small to get in to.

Its sad, but the entire US car industry is headed to oblivion. At least, unlike 99.9% of Americans, I can still build my own car from nearly scratch.

[Drew Dowdell]

I respectfully disagree with 100 percent. GM would be is so much better shape now had it filed for chapter 11 this past fall. Sorry C&G is as right for me as anyone. I have a view different than yours and disagree in the outcome of a chapter 11. GM doesn't need governments help, just like me, I want them out of my life.

You're entitled to your own opinions. You aren't entitled to your own facts.

GM could not have filed Chapter 11 in November without government financing. Period. End. Of. Story. There was no one else who could have financed them through the bankruptcy period.

A bankruptcy filing in November without the government would have been Chapter 7.

[DetroitNut90]

I don't think anyone here would say that the government is the model for efficient, well-reasoned policies. But the government didn't tell GM to make the bone-headed decisions it's been making for the past few decades. I'm sure they would love to see GM be profitable again, since they can tax profits. And we all know profits are becoming more of a phantom than a reality at GM.

[Drew Dowdell]

And regardless of some folks' diatribes about rebadges, Pontiac was GM's third highest seller. To kill that, simply is absurd... when SAAB, Saturn, Hummer, Buick, Cadillac all sell less, they should have gone first... the niche plan of a G8/Solstice only Pontiac was fine with me.

I don't care if GM is government owned or controlled. They already demonstrated stupicidial actions from the board. A chapter 7 or 11 would give someone (Penske, maybe) the chance to fix things properly.

In any case, with the discontinuation of the G8, I'm out of the GM buyer demographic. With the discontinuation of Pontiac ( and still annoyed with the loss of Olds), I will be boycotting the purchases of new GM product while a Pontiac is not available for purchase. Used GM cars are still possible... at least until they are boring or too small to get in to.

Its sad, but the entire US car industry is headed to oblivion. At least, unlike 99.9% of Americans, I can still build my own car from nearly scratch.

Volume does not equal profit. With the exception of the G8 and Solstice, Pontiac was the "Chevy" outlet for the BPG dealers. I'll agree that's not where they should have been, but that's where they were.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't think anyone here would say that the government is the model for efficient, well-reasoned policies. But the government didn't tell GM to make the bone-headed decisions it's been making for the past few decades. I'm sure they would love to see GM be profitable again, since they can tax profits. And we all know profits are becoming more of a phantom than a reality at GM.

It is in the government's best interest to see GM thrive. They don't want the unemployment, the want the tax base, they want the GDP.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

It is in the government's best interest to see GM thrive. They don't want the unemployment, the want the tax base, they want the GDP.

Perhaps, but its also in the politicians best interest to protect the jobs of their voter base, and therefore potentially ignore efficiency.

Which force is greater? Whats best for the country, or whats best for getting them re-elected?

Edited May 20, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[gm4life]

You're entitled to your own opinions. You aren't entitled to your own facts.

GM could not have filed Chapter 11 in November without government financing. Period. End. Of. Story. There was no one else who could have financed them through the bankruptcy period.

A bankruptcy filing in November without the government would have been Chapter 7.

Point taken. Honestly Drew I just hope good can come from this and GM can live at this point even if products suck. (small boring FWD cars think Aveo's and Metro's) I am wondering what you think should happen to GM, and what kind of products we will have to buy, after the current product line gets updated?

Edited May 20, 2009 by gm4life

[gm4life]

I don't think anyone here would say that the government is the model for efficient, well-reasoned policies. But the government didn't tell GM to make the bone-headed decisions it's been making for the past few decades. I'm sure they would love to see GM be profitable again, since they can tax profits. And we all know profits are becoming more of a phantom than a reality at GM.

You have some REALLY good points in this statement.