Michael Moore Slams GM

[hyperv6]

GM could have controlled that market share slide by building cars that were up to standards of the world a long time ago. Michael Moore may not know what he is talking about with regards to the cuts, but he is damn right in asking the GM execs if they've ever driven a Honda or Nissan. DAMN RIGHT.

Michael Moore---well I won't get into this debate. A lot of people are spewing opinion as if it was fact. True he is very manipulative in his arguments, BUT HE USES FACTS FACTS FACTS. HE may use facts to distort more of his opinions, but he uses facts nonetheless. Facts are at the foundation of his argument.

Like, oh ya, Iraq didn't attack us. Why haven't we captured Osama? Facts like those.

Moore is not trying to heighten his cause for his own sake. Take a look at his charitable donations--they are as much as celibrities ten times richer than he is!!! Focus in on the stories he focuses in on, yes he uses them manipulatively--or maybe he actually gives a damn about those people who are clearly and sadly suffering. People like the mother of the child in Flint MI, in Bowling for Colombine.

Moore can own whatever he wants to. Stop complaining that he has purchased an apartment in Manhattan, should I go to your house and steal all the fine jewelry and ask you why aren't you living in poverty? Is that patriotic?

The question was asked has Moore ever thought of buying a Flint, MI built GM vehicle. Let me ask you, why in the world does anybody HAVE to buy something he/she doesn't want? Yes, he can still support GM and its factory workers, but this is the free world, he has the RIGHT to choose whatever car he wants. If he chooses to buy GM, good for him, if he doesn't, it was probably because he found something better.

[post="47613"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The Fact is Mr Moore has distorted so many facts along with Moveon. org for their own ajendas and do more damage to America than most radical is fundimentalist Islamic.

He is no more benifit to America as the poverty pimps Jesse and Al with their where is the camera at thinking.

It just a shame we have so many good people liberal and conservitive that deserve much more attention and would do more good for our country but get overshadowed by activist who seek to do damage to our country like Mr Moore.

Mikey and Move On want us to believe a lie a'int a lie if you find enough fools to believe it. The fact is the truth is the truth and there is just is not space in between it. He will be found out by more people and his time will pass, people he can only keep it up so long before he falls and falls hard.

Any way back to the topic. GM's problems started long ago in the late 60's. the following mangment in the 70's and 80's failed to advance and make the hard calls before any damage was done.

Mr Wagoner is not to blame for everything, he has done some things right and some wrong. but the ship was taking on more water than he had buckets when he came in. In short he could have done a better job but he was put in a hole that very few would have done anybetter than he has. At least he was not another Smith.

Lutz came into this game with both arms tied behind his back. He had little money and little time to fix a lot of problems with product. Keep in mind the bigger the company bigger the problems.

When Nissan and Toyota need to overhaul their line up it is only 1/4 to what GM has to do. Just overhauling Chevy is equal work to just one of the competitors.

The bottom line is GM needed to make better deals with the UAW long ago and planned better with dealing with product from overseas companies that are being produce much cheaper due to labor cost.

The sad thing is with many of the things voted in in the 90's it has opened the China market wide open. they are paying people so little money [where is Michael Moore now?] to mfg products they are going to under cut us in all areas. It is not Ford vs Chevy, it is now Chevy vs Chery.

The people of this country are going to have to learn to compete on a world market and if they will do it cheaper than us we will lose.

No one ever thought the great empires of the Sovit Union, United Kingdom and Rome would fall, They did. It is not too late for us but we need to react now. Companies are here to make money and not just employ people. It would be wonderful if you could make big bucks and retire from the same company as our father and grandfathers did, but the world has changed.

China has figured out what Japan has tried to do in the past, take over the world monetarily. Japan fail due to limited labor and limited natural resouces. China has a great amount of both and now has the money from Hong Kong and are still tryng to get the banks of Taiwan.

GM today is much like the rest of the America and can make it if they all are willing to take on some hard choices and sacrifices. We are not leading the world anymore we are a part of the world as other have cought up and will do it cheaper.

Besides if it was easy to run a large corperation we all would be doing it. How many CEO's we have here?

Also if you don't like what they are doing get your degree put in a lot of long hours and days. Get a divorce or two while missing your kids growing up. Also don't forget the ulcer pills as it effects your health and you too could have all this easy fun. I have seen some have it good and many other die young because of the stress. Moneys not everything.

The bottom line is GM is building better cars but they need to build them cheaper. Edited November 23, 2005 by hyperv6

[Flybrian]

Moore is not trying to heighten his cause for his own sake. Take a look at his charitable donations--they are as much as celibrities ten times richer than he is!!! Focus in on the stories he focuses in on, yes he uses them manipulatively--or maybe he actually gives a damn about those people who are clearly and sadly suffering. People like the mother of the child in Flint MI, in Bowling for Colombine.

Moore can own whatever he wants to. Stop complaining that he has purchased an apartment in Manhattan, should I go to your house and steal all the fine jewelry and ask you why aren't you living in poverty? Is that patriotic?

The question was asked has Moore ever thought of buying a Flint, MI built GM vehicle. Let me ask you, why in the world does anybody HAVE to buy something he/she doesn't want? Yes, he can still support GM and its factory workers, but this is the free world, he has the RIGHT to choose whatever car he wants. If he chooses to buy GM, good for him, if he doesn't, it was probably because he found something better.

[post="47613"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The point is, he put himself in the public spotlight and painted himself as a crusader for the little guy, so everyone he does is freely open to scrutiny and if he doesn't like it...too bad...

[turbo200]

GM is not Nissan, GM doesnt face the same problems Nissan faced, and GM is many many times larger than Nissan. I think fixing Nissan is a piece of cake compared to what it would take to fix GM. Nissan did not lose millions of customers in the 70s and 80s. Nissan has the Japanese quality perception. Nissan does not have over a million retirees. Nissan doesn't have to adjust to the new players in the market, they are the new players in the market. The US is all growth for them since 1970 Etc....

Fixing Nissan took a number of relevant products. That's all. Relevance to the marketplace! How relevant was the Altima? Well, when it was released it was winning or placing high in comparos left and right. How relevant was the G35? Winning or placing high again.

that's all man, it comes down to relevance! How relevant are GM's products to the average consumer who couldn't care less about loyalty. Don't try and make excuses Edited November 23, 2005 by turbo200

[turbo200]

The Fact is Mr Moore has distorted so many facts along with Moveon. org for their own ajendas and do more damage to America than most radical is fundimentalist Islamic.

He is no more benifit to America as the poverty pimps Jesse and Al with their where is the camera at thinking.

It just a shame we have so many good people liberal and conservitive that deserve much more attention and would do more good for our country but get overshadowed by activist who seek to do damage to our country like Mr Moore.

Mikey and Move On want us to believe a lie a'int a lie if you find enough fools to believe it.  The fact is the truth is the truth and there is just is not space in between it. He will be found out by more  people and his time will pass, people he can only keep it up so long before he falls and falls hard.

Any way back to the topic. GM's problems started long ago in the late 60's. the following mangment in the 70's and 80's failed to advance and make the hard calls before any damage was done.

Mr Wagoner is not to blame for everything, he has done some things right and some wrong. but the ship was taking on more water than he had buckets when he came in. In short he could have done a better job but he was put in a hole that very few would have done anybetter than he has. At least he was not another Smith.

Lutz came into this game with both arms tied behind his back. He had little money and little time to fix a lot of problems with product. Keep in mind the bigger the company bigger the problems.

When Nissan and Toyota need to overhaul their line up it is only 1/4 to what GM has to do. Just overhauling Chevy is equal work to  just one of the competitors.

The bottom line is GM needed to make better deals with the UAW long ago and planned better with dealing with product from overseas companies that are being produce much cheaper due to labor cost.

The sad thing is with many of the things voted in in the 90's it has opened the China market wide open. they are paying people so little money [where is Michael Moore now?] to mfg products they are going to under cut us in all areas. It is not Ford vs Chevy, it is now Chevy vs Chery.

The people of this country are going to have to learn to compete on a world market and if they will do it cheaper than us we will lose.

No one ever thought the great empires of the Sovit Union, United Kingdom and Rome would fall, They did. It is not too late for us but we need to react now. Companies are here to make money and not just employ people. It would be wonderful if you could make big bucks and retire from the same company as our father and grandfathers did, but the world has changed.

China has figured out what Japan has tried to do in the past, take over the world monetarily. Japan fail due to limited labor and limited natural resouces. China has a great amount of both and now has the money from Hong Kong and are still tryng to get the banks of Taiwan.

GM today is much like the rest of the America and can make it if they all are willing to take on some hard choices and sacrifices. We are not leading the world anymore we are a part of the world as other have cought up and will do it cheaper.

Besides if it was easy to run a large corperation we all would be doing it. How many CEO's we have here?

Also if you don't like what they are doing get your degree put in a lot of long hours and days. Get a divorce or two while missing your kids growing up. Also don't forget the ulcer pills as it effects your health and you too could have all this easy fun. I have seen some have it good and many other die young because of the stress. Moneys not everything.

The bottom line is GM is building better cars but they need to build them cheaper.

[post="47643"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thanks for the respectable way in which you dealt with the moore issue, at least you didn't just say he's fat and stupid, which makes people seem ignorant.

I won't get into this debate any further, because you touched on an issue that goes much deeper. I think there's too much talk about what's hurting America already.

The bottom line about GM's problems: I know they have a significant cost disadvantage. There is a blame to place there: what about the last concessions we made to the UAW? Gm should have stood up more. But hindsight is 20/20, so I cant' say anything there.

Overhauling GM is like overhauling the Titanic. IF this is the case, instead of spending money on two products to make them mediocre, spend on one product and make it class leading. the bottom line is GM whittled away in their arrogance of their loyal market and didn't bother to check that the competition's cars were spanking them in every sector. Besides the corvette I can't think of one GM that is totally class leading. that's a damn shame

[turbo200]

The point is, he put himself in the public spotlight and painted himself as a crusader for the little guy, so everyone he does is freely open to scrutiny and if he doesn't like it...too bad...

[post="47645"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

public scrutiny is a part of the deal, and I'm sure he could give two rat's asses about what some internet guys think about him. But if you want to attack the integrity of another man, then you do it according to the standards of integrity you hold for yourself, otherwise you're a hypocrite, end of story.

[razoredge]

Wow that took along time to read, but I did, I read each and every word ya'll posted. Now that Im done Im wondering what makes this Moore guy such an ass ? Im wondering if its catching becasue it seems to have gotten passed around a bit. ? Well a few of you made posts that made sense, the rest well, looked like narrow minded bias hype. Im going to have to get a few of these other movies and watch them. I saw the one about Flint and Smith and saw it for what it was. Maybe some people can only see the one side so they get pissed off about the guy thats standing on the other ? If I go to college will they explain to me just exactly at which point I will become blindly ignorant to all walks of life and the importance of each ? Im glad the US went to Irac.............time to leave :lol:

[Chevysnumberone]

public scrutiny is a part of the deal, and I'm sure he could give two rat's asses about what some internet guys think about him. But if you want to attack the integrity of another man, then you do it according to the standards of integrity you hold for yourself, otherwise you're a hypocrite, end of story.

[post="47653"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well said turbo200! if it were note for your comment i was about to resign from this forum after reading all stupid comments, and i know those hypocrites don"t give a damn about what i do. Again well said! B)

[BuickEight]

WTF did your loverboy Clinton do to help while domestic automakers were falling in the 90's?  None of this randomly started happening in 2000.

[post="47420"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How old are you?

[CaddyXLR-V]

How old are you?

[post="47672"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You started the immature posting and your going to try to insult someone else? If it were up to me, your original post would be deleted.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Fixing Nissan took a number of relevant products. That's all. Relevance to the marketplace! How relevant was the Altima? Well, when it was released it was winning or placing high in comparos left and right. How relevant was the G35? Winning or placing high again.

that's all man, it comes down to relevance! How relevant are GM's products to the average consumer who couldn't care less about loyalty. Don't try and make excuses

[post="47648"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How you do that and still be able to make money is the problem. GM could make great products, thats easy. The hard part is making great products, and still make money on them. If it was that easy, dont you think they would have done it already?

[turbo200]

The problem with escalating costs has only now become a problem because the market has gotten so far out of thier reach, that incentives have to constantly be used. Let's not get confused and forget the beginning of this decade that saw GM boasting about the wonderful profits and sales of the GMT 800s that were keeping the company afloat. Well, that could only happen for so long, and GM saw some decreasing market share in those areas, and shot itself in the foot by ramping up incentives just to keep the factories humming. Yes, overcapacity was and is still a huge problem, so why weren't factories closed along time ago? There's no defending GM's problems. They have all been caused by ripe product that was so half-baked, and seemingly from the last century in certain areas, that they just lost the cachet factor. And the cachet factor, in something so public and personal as one's automobile is a B I G deal. GM missed out on the boat. I am ranting now, but GM was making money for LOTS and LOTS of years, and only NOW has added to the investments they are making in product. ONLY F%%%%%%%%NG NOW???!!!!

[turbo200]

Well said turbo200!  if it were note for your comment i was about to resign from this forum after reading all stupid comments, and i know those hypocrites don"t give a damn about what i do. Again well said! B)

[post="47670"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

hehe, thanks

[OptimusK]

Hey guys...first time poster, long time lurker (busy, busy). [rant] My problem with Michael Moore is two-headed. Like many (but not all) who 'dissent' using mass media, he stands to benefit most from his message. He gets further exposure to sell books, DVDs, and whatever he wants to peddle. I liken it to popular, political, music groups who very literally market 'dissent,' damning the very system they're using to get rich. Secondly, the man goes to extreme lengths to find people in tragic situations and exploits them. What did Michael Moore do for Flint? He made his name on the backs of those whom struggled to provide for their families. He made their plight 'entertaining.' What about those families he interviewed for F911? What are his solutions to these complex problems? He may have a point or two, but why would you want sort through all the self-aggrandizing BS to listen? We don't need Michael Moore to see what's wrong with the world...but he certainly acts like we do. The epitomy of a 'talking head.' [/rant]

[I hope GMRULES again]

The question was asked has Moore ever thought of buying a Flint, MI built GM vehicle. Let me ask you, why in the world does anybody HAVE to buy something he/she doesn't want? Yes, he can still support GM and its factory workers, but this is the free world, he has the RIGHT to choose whatever car he wants. If he chooses to buy GM, good for him, if he doesn't, it was probably because he found something better.

[post="47613"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I asked the question, what has he done to help to support his hometown workers of Flint. I'm not against him and I actually agree with some of his statements. He made his fortunes by exposing GM's piss poor management of the 80's (somebody had to) and airing his hometowns dirty laundry for the world to see, though not all of the problems in Flint were GM's doing. Just because the management of a company screws up I don't think you have should be against the whole company and its workers. His Father and Grandfather worked for GM in Flint which put the food on his kitchen table as a child so I think its a fair question.He doesn't HAVE to buy a GM car but if he cared about helping support his home town then why not buy a GM car that was built in Michigan if its a good quality vehicle. I would bet he high tailed it out of Michigan when he made it big and now lives in sunny California and drives a BMW or god forbid maybe even a Toyota. In my book that means he doesn't give a sh** about helping Flint.

[razoredge]

and still no one want to address the rapid and never ending increase in the cost of doctering and medicine. I mean what is truely at the heart of the greatests money sponges we are confronted with today ? Id be more interested in something real important like that than cryin about some single man.

[turbo200]

I asked the question, what has he done to help to support his hometown workers of Flint. I'm not against him and I actually agree with some of his statements. He made his fortunes by exposing GM's piss poor management of the 80's (somebody had to) and airing his hometowns dirty laundry for the world to see, though not all of the problems in Flint were GM's doing. Just because the management of a company screws up I don't think you have should be against the whole company and its workers.  His Father and Grandfather worked for GM in Flint which put the food on his kitchen table as a child so I think its a fair question.He doesn't HAVE to buy a GM car but if he cared about helping support his home town then why not buy a GM car  that was built in Michigan if its a good quality vehicle.  I would bet he high tailed it out of Michigan when he made it big and now lives in sunny California and drives a BMW or god forbid maybe even a Toyota. In my book that means he doesn't give a sh** about helping Flint.

[post="47718"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm sorry I came off like an ass when I said that to you, it was more of what was going on in the whole post. there was no hostility towards you.

[OptimusK]

and still no one want to address the rapid and never ending increase in the cost of doctering and medicine.
I mean what is truely at the heart of the greatests money sponges we are confronted with today ?
Id be more interested in something real important like that than cryin about some single man.

[post="47719"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yeah...sorry to wine. ^_^

I'm afraid that of the very few of us that truly understand the convoluted web that is rising healthcare costs, a miniscule few of those have the vision to push for long-term reforms and probably don't have the power to make changes.

IIRC, Reagon's administration was the first to seriously look at rising healthcare costs (in respect to Medicare/Social Security), and their 'inflation + n' matching of gov't funds to medical costs is basically the only major way the gov't has tried to tackle this issue. Private healthcare should work well, in theory, but charging more and cutting corners on care is not uncommon...stockholders are king.

I'm no visionary, but it seems as though the gov't alone, GM/UAW alone, or the HMO/doctors alone won't be able to create a good long-term solution. I'm against 'big gov't' but it seems as though (probably right when the crisis is at the gate) a partnership between gov't, industry, and medicine, allowing private healthcare with heavy gov't regulation might be something worth looking into. Of course, that means more bureaucracy and red tape.

Sacrifices will have to made somewhere...and who wants to be the politician, CEO, etc. to call for these sacrifices, no matter how good a long-term solution they may offer. We need a good plan...and someone, anybody, whether in gov't or industry, with gumption and insight...and a back-bone. The only way out is through. Edited November 24, 2005 by OptimusK

[zbad1]

GM could have controlled that market share slide by building cars that were up to standards of the world a long time ago. Michael Moore may not know what he is talking about with regards to the cuts, but he is damn right in asking the GM execs if they've ever driven a Honda or Nissan. DAMN RIGHT.

Michael Moore---well I won't get into this debate. A lot of people are spewing opinion as if it was fact. True he is very manipulative in his arguments, BUT HE USES FACTS FACTS FACTS. HE may use facts to distort more of his opinions, but he uses facts nonetheless. Facts are at the foundation of his argument.

Like, oh ya, Iraq didn't attack us. Why haven't we captured Osama? Facts like those.

[post="47613"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

These are the very points that Michael Moore tries to make that show how very little he knows about these subjects.

Any time GM (or any other company) are in the processes of devoloping new product, they have ALL of the competition on hand. They drive them, tear them apart, reverse engineer them, race them, and compare them right along side with the current project. They track them, abuse them, haul and tow with them, all to ensure that the new product meets or exceeds the competition. Every company does this. It's ridiculous for Moore to spout out this nonsense.

Secondly, Who cares that Iraq didn't attack us? That's never been a requisite for war. Did Germany Attack us in WW2? We fought them for years before we turned our attentions to Japan. Did Britain attack us before the Revolution? Did Iraq attack us before the Gulf War? Do you have to wait for somebody to kill your family before your attack them?

[turbo200]

Now you want open a wholly different can of worms. Something I don't care to go into, I here enough about this war already to argue for or against it right now.

As for tracking the competition, yes you are right, the engineers do bring the competition and benchmark them. If you read correctly though Moore's comment was directed at executives. From this website and others you can learn it's not the engineers that don't design the cars up to standards, it's the beancounters that take the uniqueness and quality out of the design. There's a reason why GM's interiors have always been Fisher Price and showed almost no design reach, the way oh MB or VW have.

[I hope GMRULES again]

I'm sorry I came off like an ass when I said that to you, it was more of what was going on in the whole post. there was no hostility towards you.

[post="47731"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No no I didn't take it that way. What did you think of my post?

[haypops]

Lot's of venting here and I guess that serves some purpose. However, this is an auto entusiast site. In the run up to the 2004 nomination Michael Moore endorsed the one candidate who rebuilds his family car's engine himself. How many of you even know who it is? I speculate that such an individual would look more understandingly at GM and other auto producers than those candidates that don't rebuild engines themselves.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Is his 1st name John?

[turbo200]

No no I didn't take it that way. What did you think of my post?

[post="48042"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

it was right in line with where it should have been. i just came off really strongly in my post, thanks.

[turbo200]

I beleive, before 2004, Michael Moore was a registered Independant, so he would have supported Ralph Nader. In 2004 he switched, along with a ton of liberal celebrities who were registered Independants, in order to see Kerry elected.

[haypops]

In 2000 Michael Moore did support Ralp Nader, but in the 2004 election Moore got down on his knees and begged Ralph Nader not to run (don't get all dirty mouthed on me) :) In the 2004 Michale Moore contributed to, supported and endorsed Wesley Clark. Clark did indeed rebuild the motor on his family car himself because of lack of funds. I wonder if Clark's engine troubles were exasperated by the months or years at a time that he would be stationed overseas.

[turbo200]

That's right. Clark was an incredible candidate, and an incredible general. I hope he can find more support this time around and make a run for the DNC. I don't know why, but I can't see Hillary winning enough support around the country, it's not that she's got a bad history or anything like that, I don't know that many people around the country are ready to vote for a woman.

[Sixty8panther]

Why, oh why did this have to get political!? *sigh* For what it's worth I'm not Republican.... but I sure as heck am not a liberal or a democrat. I'm a libertarian and I think any true American past, present or future is at least partially Libertarian at heart. As far as extreeme Liberals? IMHOP these people's mentality can best be sumarised this way. (I'm quoting a good friend here) "A liberal is someone who fights for world peace but yet feels justified in taking away our freedoms and drilling holes in baby's brains" (refrence to 3rd trimester abortion, which Ted Kennedy & other Dems voted for) And as far as BUsh goes he's a poor excuse for a Republican. His whole damn administraion acts very Un-Republican like more often than not. Like it or not.

[Flybrian]

So...you're ired because this thread turned political, so you make it even more devisively political?

[Sixty8panther]

Okay, you got me. Guilty. I was offended by all this Republicans this and taht B.S.