Michael Moore Slams GM

[zbad1]

Moderators, I hope that this is the proper place for this article. Please move if necessary.

This is my first post here. I've been lurking for months now. Great Place. I work as a stock broker and this just came through as 'relevant' GM financial news on the wires.

GM is not perfect. Bush is not perfect. They both have many faults. I personally like them both. The REASONS that Moore gives for not liking either just makes me laugh for hours. In my opinion he does not have a logical bone in his body. Rarely do any of his arguments point to solid fact, but rather appeal only to flawed emotional misconceptions.







Here's the article:

Filmmaker Michael Moore Breaks Silence (Speaks out against GM plant closings and Bush Administration)
Tue Nov 22 17:37:22 2005 EST
FLINT, Mich., Nov 22, 2005 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ --
In his first interview in a year, Academy award winning filmmaker Michael Moore spoke out today on Supertalk1570 WWCK AM radio in Flint, Michigan. Appearing live on the Dave Barber Show, Moore blasted GM for their announcement of plant closings in the United States, including a factory in Moore's hometown of Flint, Michigan. "It's weirdly ironic that it's 19 years today, when I first thought of doing a film about General Motors," stated Moore. "Still after all these years GM continues this unfortunate behavior," he added. Moore believes the timing of the announcement, just before the holidays, was intended to "paralyze" the employees, so they could not "climb out of their depression" to fight back!
Moore went on to blame the current GM leadership for their claimed $4 billion revenue loss. Moore questioned, "Has any GM executive in the last 30 years even bothered to take a Honda or Toyota for a drive around the block?" Referencing the fact that maybe those in charge would realize the qualities consumers are looking for, in their foreign counterparts. "This arrogance and stupidity," Moore commented has led the company to near economic ruin. Moore went on to say, "General Motors leadership has turned the American dream into the American nightmare!"
Moore, who has refused all media interviews in recent months, appeared exclusively on the Dave Barber show, heard each weekday from 9:00 AM - Noon. Barber, a veteran news talker received a call from Moore just minutes before the impromptu live appearance. Moore, troubled by what has happened in Flint and other industrial areas, wanted to break his silence. Moore didn't stop with GM plant closings. He used this 60-minute radio appearance to also sharply criticize the Bush administration on a wide range of issues, particularly the war in Iraq. Moore made no apology for his controversial statements on Oscar night when he professed that the Bush administration had plunged the US into a "fictitious war." Moore continued his attack by calling President Bush "Embarrassing and frightening."
Dave Barber has three times been selected by Talkers Magazine as one of the counties Top 100 Talk Show Hosts. Even he was surprised by this last minute appearance from Moore. "When Michael walks in your studio, people tend to take notice," Barber said.
SOURCE Cumulus Broadcasting, Inc.
Dave Barber of Cumulus Broadcasting, Inc., +1-810-407-3283, or [email protected]
http://www.prnewswire.com
Copyright © 2005 PR Newswire. All rights reserved.

[zq8colorado04]

HAHA! "When Michael Moore walks in your studio, people tend to take notice" That's b/c the guy weighs like 400lbs. and is a slob...of course you're gonna notice him!

[sciguy_0504]

One of the most worthless and bastardly characters to ever walk this Earth.

[Flybrian]

So...this makes this guy's credibility like a two and a half now, right? I say that because he's only regurgitating what a thousand others have said for quite awhile now.

[hyperv6]

Michael Moore is proof that with the right promotion you could make anyone famous. He beat Pair Hilton by a few years. Mr Moore is a fraud as he protrays himself and the common man though he lives in a multi million dollar penthouse in New York. It is fine to have money in my book but don't say your for the down and out and make a dollar off of supporting them. Just visit his back ground and see what kind of a person he really is. Drops out of seminary school because the seminary refused to let him watch a Detroit Tigers game. He dropped out of the University of Michigan because he could not find a parking place one morning. He once worked for a auto plant in Flint and called off on his first day of work and never returned. He is a very good example of what is going wrong in this country. If he fell off the map today we would all be better for it. Edited November 22, 2005 by hyperv6

[Cory Wolfe]

You mean... he's still alive?!?!?!? That surprises me being that he's a f**king retard.

[Guest Josh]

Lets keep things civil here and clean up the language.

[Variance]

Just visit his back ground and see what kind of a person he really is.

Drops out of seminary school because the seminary refused to let him watch a Detroit Tigers game.

He dropped out of the University of Michigan because he could not find a parking place one morning.

He once worked for a auto plant in Flint and called off on his first day of work and never returned.

He is a very good example of what is going wrong in this country. If he fell off the map today we would all be better for it.

[post="47025"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Wow. Is this all true? What a tool.

Now in fairness, I have never seen any of Moore's documentaries or read anything substantive from him but he comes across here as an attention whore and nothing more.

[Hogans_Heroes]

Moore really gets me wound up. I wrote this on another board: "Okay - not a big John McCain fan. But I thought these words summed up Michael Moore pretty well (part of his address to the RNC in NYC - 2004): "Our choice wasn’t between a benign status quo and the bloodshed of war. It was between war and a graver threat. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Not our critics abroad. Not our political opponents. ***And certainly not a disingenuous film maker who would have us believe that Saddam’s Iraq was an oasis of peace when in fact it was a place of indescribable cruelty, torture chambers, mass graves and prisons that destroyed the lives of the small children held inside their walls.***" What was unfortunate about the delivery of McCain's remarks was that after he said the words, "disingenuous film maker", the entire audience errupted in laughter, applause, and cheering, then - as they located Moore in the audience (press box), jeering. Moore then playfully took a bow and smiled. Then people laughed. He took it all in jest. And it made McCain's remarks seem similarly in jest. As if they were some kind of playful jab. But McCain's sentence was cut mid-stream. Eventually, he was able to complete his thought (though minutes later). The rest of his sentence, "who would have us believe that Saddam’s Iraq was an oasis of peace when in fact it was a place of indescribable cruelty, torture chambers, mass graves and prisons that destroyed the lives of the small children held inside their walls" is HARD HITTING. I mean it's sad. Really sad. Destroying the lives of small children inside prison walls? That's tough stuff. It's true, though. The talk is of 300,000 dead. Of course the American-led war has not only alleviated the suffering of Saddam's cruelly-tortured populace, it has in other ways added to their suffering. It's a complex issue. But the point is, Moore selectively portrayed pre-war Iraq as a place where children happily flew kites and rejoiced in their fatherland. The reality was Moore sinisterly glazed over Saddam's crimes. And, this is not morally right. I would rather Mr. Moore have used his talents to make a documentary about the small children dying behind Saddam's prison walls than to have ignored them entirely. Kind of reminds me of Walter Duranty, actually."

[hyperv6]

Wow. Is this all true? What a tool.

Now in fairness, I have never seen any of Moore's documentaries or read anything substantive from him but he comes across here as an attention whore and nothing more.

[post="47039"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This info was from the new Book Mental Floss Forbidden Knowledge by Collins press.

You should see what Al Gore dropped out of.

[CARBIZ]

If Ralph Nader can do it, anybody can.

[KaliRover]

Don't know why... but the only phrase that come's to mind when I think about Michael Moore and from reading this is...


"stupid, fat, hobbit... "
-Gollum.



He deserves a punch in the gut, not for his political stance, but for taking crack's at GM. Whine and complain, whine and complain. Like GM owes you something... Fat hobbit, faT fAT HObbit....., not making any sense because of his height, but I'll continue calling him that till the end of his days....

[Sixty8panther]

First off: Variance, love the new Avatar. Second: Hypothetically speaking, if I backed over M. Moore with my Coupe Deville and then accidentaly jamed an icepick into his throat to make sure he was dead (I mean, uh... to check his pulse, yeah that's it) do you think I would get arrested or would the cops just tell me to drive straight home and wash the blood off my hands while they drop the body off the bridge? Just a hypothetical question.

[daves87rs]

You mean... he's still alive?!?!?!? That surprises me being that he's a f**king retard.

[post="47029"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I was thinking the same thing..... :lol:

[nzr]

Michael Moore needs to be exiled. Edited November 23, 2005 by nzr

[Cadillacfan]

Now. I wouldn't go that far. Interesting. What does he suggest GM to do instead of closing plants? Absolutely nothing. He just whines and complains and pretends to care about blue collar workers and offers no solution to GM's problems. That's because he has no clue what he's talking about. He's a joke. Michael Moore pretends to care about the people that he makes his "Documentaries" about but all he does care about is making a name for himself and making money to feed his fat face. He does not care about this country. He cares about himself.

[Shantanu]

Don't know why... but the only phrase that come's to mind when I think about Michael Moore and from reading this is...
"stupid, fat, hobbit... "
-Gollum.
He deserves a punch in the gut, not for his political stance, but for taking crack's at GM. Whine and complain, whine and complain. Like GM owes you something... Fat hobbit, faT fAT HObbit....., not making any sense because of his height, but I'll continue calling him that till the end of his days....

[post="47069"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually I heard Michael Moore is 6'1". So he's not just a fat bastard, he's a rather large fat bastard. :lol:

The upper middle class, liberal Volvo drivers who buy up Michael Moore's works don't really give a damn about the American factory worker, but reading or watching Moore's stuff makes them feel good about themselves. That's what it's all about. And Michael Moore, who was probably a big nerd back in his hometown of Flint, is something of a token blue-collar white guy in the fashionable parties of New York City.

[sciguy_0504]

First off:

Variance, love the new Avatar.

Second:

Hypothetically speaking, if I backed over M. Moore with my Coupe Deville and then accidentaly jamed an icepick into his throat to make sure he was dead (I mean, uh... to check his pulse, yeah that's it) do you think I would get arrested or would the cops just tell me to drive straight home and wash the blood off my hands while they drop the body off the bridge?
Just a hypothetical question.

[post="47073"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If it went to trial and I was a juror, my conclusion would be not guilty.

[Carguy]

Michael-PINCO COMMIE-Morre! Thats just like him to KICK GM when their DOWN! Him and Ralph-CORVAIR KILLER-Nader are two of a-GM/CAPITALISM/REAL AMERICA HATEING-kind.

[Guest Josh]

Call me crazy or any other name people have associated Moore with...but the man has a point. OK OK don't shoot me. But lets be honest....General Motors has gotten themselves into this. WE all know how I feel about Unions, GM, management, etc but if you sit back and look at the overall spectrum of this......Management has GOT to understand what the market wants and needs. I'm not saying I oppose these cuts, because I don't. They are necessary, but we have all got to sit back, look at the bigger picture and demand changes amongst the white collar. At least shake things up Rick! I can't wait for the NAIAS. Not only will we be covering it :) But...it will give us all a time to take a breather from the negative news that is out and about and will shine a positive light on General Motors and it's employees.

[tmp]

The upper middle class, liberal Volvo drivers who buy up Michael Moore's works don't really give a damn about the American factory worker, but reading or watching Moore's stuff makes them feel good about themselves.  That's what it's all about.  And Michael Moore, who was probably a big nerd back in his hometown of Flint, is something of a token blue-collar white guy in the fashionable parties of New York City.

[post="47148"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As one of those evil liberals, I have to say that I really do care about the American factory worker. Enough that I actively write my congressmen and women trying to force them to crack down on corporations that want to offsource freaking EVERYTHING so that American factory workers next jobs will be at McDonalds while the CEO's will be happily vacationing in Aspen.

I'll never understand why people make such a bit freaking deal about Michael Moore having his "million dollar apartment" in New York (this just in kids, that's the average median price in Manhattan) as being proof that he's an evil, out of touch liberal, but nobody ever takes Rush Limbaugh to task for his bazillion dollar Florida manse, or his penchant for checking into the Connaught in London to indulge his passion for illegal-in-America Cuban cigars.

Sorry- I love GM, and I am willing to cut them a lot of slack- I think the media is biased and doesn't cut them a break on a lot of stuff, but GM is also responsible for building some pretty crappy and out of touch cars for a long time. They refused to believe that the market had changed, and apparently surrounded themselves with enough people who blew sunshine up their collected a$$es for long enough for the Japanese to actually build good enough cars to take the market away from them. Even today, they take three steps forward and two steps back. They put out two products that show what they can do, then put out 6 others that look like focused-group snooze mobiles.

I've read a lot of people here on this board decry the evil, greedy unions for not wanting to take a 60% pay cut. Well, I don't now about you, but if I had to take that much of a hit on my income, I'd be homeless. The fact that Michael Moore made a documentary that chronicled just that history in Flint (or Columbine, or 9-11, which I've seen and does not state that Iraq was candyland, just mentions a few nasty truths, like they didn't attack us) makes him an evil uncaring lib, it makes him a documentary film-maker.

Oh, and as far as how caring and sharing GM upper management is, I'd be a whole hell of a lot more impressed with them if they said that all of them were willing to take a salary of $1 for this year and next (and no expense re-imbursment- no Steve Jobs-style free private aircraft or stock options) in the spirit of sharing the burden with the workers at the plants they're shutting down.

:angry:

[regfootball]

my local news tonight just had a piece tonight about 'what is an American car', where they basically said, well70% of your foreign cars are BUILT here. then they had the obviously liberal professor on who said to the effect of 'the future of american auto industry is toyota, honda, nissan'. it was by no means sympathetic of GM's looming job cuts...in fact, it was quite matter of fact about it. it did mention how the south is the new center of the US auto industry using new plants and non-union labor. They made no statement about how Ford or GM profit paths effect the US economy vs. funneling money to a Japanese company. No mention of currency manipulation and internal trade barriers in Japan. No mention of our companies long history and it being in jeopardy or the lives affected or the trade imbalances in the future. I'm convinced after that piece, GM is done, Ford likely too. The opinion pushers in the USA are simply going where the story creates the most drama and the US automakers are clearly on the wrong side of the coin right now. I'll try to post the link on this or some other topic, EVERYONE needs to see this piece. I guess then, as this relates to 'attention whores' (thanks, I love that term) like Michael Moore....it just sounds like he needed to get some publicity and he found the right tool to get it. I honestly haven't seen or read much about him other than that a lot of folks think he's a major ass. I put my notes together here to only say, to those who don't think the media perpetrates stereotypes.....this is a great example. Michael moore wants ON. he gets on. He says whatever he wants about GM to bludgeon them. He likely has no factual basis on anything, nor solutions on how to fix things. Just look at the open and clear path he has to further dig into GM. We didn't hear the other side of the story apparently. So, the public forms an opinion and bingo, things are now worse. the delphi saga and 30,000 jobs lost are major economical warning signs going off and the press is not even reporting that facet of it. the issues are union labor, health care, trade deficits, outsourcing, failure of American business...in addition to the consumer issues and how GM has failed as a carmaker. i dunno. i wish some place in the media would talk about the big deal this is. they are still piling on like the Enquirer wanting to break up Jen and Brad. this GM news is the tip of the iceberg. things could get real ugly here in the US real quick, yet all we see are guys like Michael Moore whining and feeding the ego.....and no discussion about what GM does contribute and how they are trying to stay afloat to keep from total collapse....and what value they bring to so many Americans. I am seeing nothing in the news yet in terms of analysis on what TOYOTA contributes to our economy, in comparison. Edited November 23, 2005 by regfootball

[regfootball]

As one of those evil liberals, I have to say that I really do care about the American factory worker.  Enough that I actively write my congressmen and women trying to force them to crack down on corporations that want to offsource freaking EVERYTHING so that American factory workers next jobs will be at McDonalds while the CEO's will be happily vacationing in Aspen.

I'll never understand why people make such a bit freaking deal about Michael Moore having his "million dollar apartment" in New York (this just in kids, that's the average median price in Manhattan) as being proof that he's an evil, out of touch liberal, but nobody ever takes Rush Limbaugh to task for his bazillion dollar Florida manse, or his penchant for checking into the Connaught in London to indulge his passion for illegal-in-America Cuban cigars.

Sorry- I love GM, and I am willing to cut them a lot of slack- I think the media is biased and doesn't cut them a break on a lot of stuff, but GM is also responsible for building some pretty crappy and out of touch cars for a long time.  They refused to believe that the market had changed, and apparently surrounded themselves with enough people who blew sunshine up their collected a$$es for long enough for the Japanese to actually build good enough cars to take the market away from them.  Even today, they take three steps forward and two steps back.  They put out two products that show what they can do, then put out 6 others that look like focused-group snooze mobiles.

I've read a lot of people here on this board decry the evil, greedy unions for not wanting to take a 60% pay cut.  Well, I don't now about you, but if I had to take that much of a hit on my income, I'd be homeless.  The fact that Michael Moore made a documentary that chronicled just that history in Flint (or Columbine, or 9-11, which I've seen and does not state that Iraq was candyland, just mentions a few nasty truths, like they didn't attack us) makes him an evil uncaring lib, it makes him a documentary film-maker.

Oh, and as far as how caring and sharing GM upper management is, I'd be a whole hell of a lot more impressed with them if they said that all of them were willing to take a salary of $1 for this year and next (and no expense re-imbursment- no Steve Jobs-style free private aircraft or stock options) in the spirit of sharing the burden with the workers at the plants they're shutting down.

:angry:

[post="47256"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

i do think just recently Wagoner announced a large pay cut going forward for himself and some execs there. it was what,a amonth ago? it never got much press. Bill Ford works for free. bill doesn't wear makeup very well, in the commericals, BTW.

[balthazar]

...lets be honest....General Motors has gotten themselves into this. WE all know how I feel about Unions, GM, management, etc but if you sit back and look at the overall spectrum of this......Management has GOT to understand what the market wants and needs.

One cannot make blanket statements like moore does and expect to retain any credibility. "...gotten themselves into" what specifically? Consistancy also is a hallmark of integrity, and he doesn't have that, either.

[Lance Truthhammer]

There is so much hatred here. Disagree with what he says if you will, but recognize that some of what he says has some truth value to it, and understands that he means well. Ditch the ad hominem attacks and orient your discussion to truth. If truth is on your side, your evidence should suffice. I personally have problems with some of what Michael Moore has done, for instance, I will never watch Fahrenheit 9/11 because I think it stygmatized the anti-war argument and polarized what should have been a broad and serious national debate. Yet, much of what he points out should make you think, as it contains a lot of truth and a lot of good. I guess my point is: nobody is perfect, and nobody is right or wrong on all the issues. So many people tend to treat Michael Moore as though he is all bad, and I think that is a great tragedy. Those people should be ashamed. -E.S. Mail

[BuickEight]

The truth about this fraudulent administration is just beginning to be exposed. When the truth does come out, you people are going to feel/look REALLY stupid. The reason why GM is failing is because it's run by greedy and stupid Republicans. Gee, kinda sounds like our country right now! For the love of God...GET THOSE STUPID F*#@%*N REPUKES OUT OF WASHINGTON! :angry:

[Chicagoland]

People blame liberals for GM sliding down. But what did "King Bush" say about the domestic auto company's troubles? "They gotta learn to compete". Not, "lets ban all ferrin cars". If someone as staunch a GM fan as Josh thinks the cuts are needed, you know one has to face reality. Edited November 23, 2005 by Chicagoland

[thegriffon]

Far too many people here are simply regurgitating the festering contents of their spleen. Ideology is the refuge of the weak-minded who find it too hard to think through the real issues clearly, logically and dispassionately. Put aside your hatred and prejudices for a change. For all the complaining about GM's mistakes most of you would have done far worse in product decisions, and many of GM"s mistakes are driven by what the consumers want. They're between a rock and a hard place, whichever way they go a lot of people will be unhappy. Unions howl because they want to close plants, creditors howl because they aren't closing anough. Consumers howl because Red Tag erodes faith in resale and Value Pricing, dealers howl because they want and end-of-year sale to match everyone else. GM designs tries to design a car to match the Maxima, but they have to do it for thousands less than an Altima - is it any wonder the product suffers? Every product, from the Cobalt to the Escalade is hobbled by the same market demands. If they try and build a competitive car you howl it's too expensive. If they design to match what you'll pay, you howl it's not as good. Aside from closing almost every plant and starting from scratch with a very few models (I mean one or two per division), what else do you think they can do?

[KaliRover]

... come on now... lol, leave the republicans and the democrats and Bush out of this...

GM and Michael Moore friend's, GM and Michael Moore...

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Its everyones fault here, its managements fault for building poor cars, its the union leaders fault for making some bad economic decisions. and the fact is, if GM goes under it would cause some serious reprecussions in the marketplace, not to mention GM has contracts with the government for defense, and the government will not allow its home defense maker to go under (at least not that particular division) that being said i doubt GM will go under, if they readjust to 15-20% marketshare they will have less overall cost and more $$ to throw at designing, and in time they can rebuild their marketshare and keep the company lean (as in no underused plants).

[cmattson]

Like him or not, this is still America - and last time I looked, we still have freedom of speech. By talking about him, listening to him, we give him the power/money/authority to keep putting himself on the soapbox. Moore may have dropped out of school, etc - but so have lots of other people - what's the point (other than to bash)? Moore's genius is that some idiot let him have a film crew & he's used it (several times) to document controversial issues in an divisive ways. I do disagree with several things Moore has said and some of the method's he uses to convey them. I agree with Josh here: GM's management is largely to blame for not "getting it" sooner. But is that the sin of current management or previous ones? Back in GM's primetime days, competitors were Chrysler and Ford -- everybody else was fringe players & didn't have enough market share in this country to notice and/or pay attention to. Take a look now. Besides the ones I've just mentioned, you've also got Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Audi/VW, Hyundai, Kia - and you've also got lower-priced Mercedes/BMW models that are competing against your luxury brands. The volume of competition alone dictates that you are going to lose market share. With that lower market share comes cuts, early retirements and plant closings -- and all of the expenses that come with them. The relative new-comers haven't had the unions organize in their plants yet. Because of their newness, they don't have the volume of retirees a GM has. Better yet, a portion of their workforce is still overseas; where there are no (or vastly limited) pension/healthcare issues. On top of that, some of them experience "bonus profit" due to currency gains in the neighborhood of 25% to 40%. This allows them to spend more expense on materials and on engineering. It lets them take risks -- even when the benefits seem marginal (a la hybrids with their mediocre gas mileage improvements). Is it GM's fault that there is the volume of competition that there is? Is it GM's fault that they have the volume of retiree's that they do? Is it GM's fault that pension costs are what they are? Is it GM's fault that healthcare costs are what they are? 2 decades ago, GM could've started building better cars; with better gas mileage, better quality, better styling - and it would've garnered them more profit from then all the way upto and including today -- but it wouldn't have stopped any of the 4 issues I listed above - and every one of them are significant issues. I'd even dare to say they are the most crippling issues GM now faces. Edited November 23, 2005 by cmattson

[sciguy_0504]

The truth about this fraudulent administration is just beginning to be exposed.  When the truth does come out, you people are going to feel/look REALLY stupid.  The reason why GM is failing is because it's run by greedy and stupid Republicans.  Gee, kinda sounds like our country right now!  For the love of God...GET THOSE STUPID F*#@%*N REPUKES OUT OF WASHINGTON! :angry:

[post="47300"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

WTF did your loverboy Clinton do to help while domestic automakers were falling in the 90's? None of this randomly started happening in 2000.

[Flybrian]

I think most people here realize that GM's problems have mostly been GM's own, but detest Moore's 11th-hourism as if he's any authority on the subject or if he really cares about anything that doesn't end up providing free press promotion for himself. I don't hate-hate him like some of the others here apparently do; he's not worth that effort. But I doubt his sincerity and his portrayal of himself as a true 'advocate of the common man.' Rather he exploits them for his own publicity gain.

[the_yellow_dart]

The Republicans? Extreme right wing. The "Democrats"? Right wing. The American media? Moderate-heavy right wing. Most political speakers in America (Rush Limbaugh, Larry King, etc)? At least somewhat right wing. Micheal Moore? Left wing. People hate those that are extremely different. I hated Mike Harris, premier of Ontario for what he did to the school system, which was a very right wing decision. I hate George Bush because: a. He is about as far from my political beliefs as he possibly could be without actually BEING a fascist. b. His arrogance - He probably thought "Team America: World Police" was a bloody documentary. If I could get away with murdering two people in this world, it would be those two. I understand the hatred for Micheal Moore from those of you who don't agree with him politically (most obviously the Republicans). I, however, believe he is an ESSENTIAL component of the current American political landscape, as he is the only one offering any sort of different political view right now. The Dems and Reps are WAY too similar in their views for my liking - it leads to a very narrow view of politics. Americans need real choice. It's part of freedom after all.

[Cremazie]

Ok, if Micheal Moore was a smart man, and if people in the Press were smart they would be promoting GM to save these jobs. This is an issue of supply and demand. If we bring sales up at GM we save homeland jobs. Stop bashing GM and start promoing it. >>> SAVE OUR JOBS, BUY A GM<<< Edited November 23, 2005 by Cremazie

[I hope GMRULES again]

I wonder if Moore, with all his money has ever went out a bought a GM car that was built in his home state of Michigan to support his former neighbours in Flint? I highly doubt it. He's lucky GM management was as bad as it was in the 80's which made his first movie such a success or he'd probably still be living in Flint skinning rabbits and chopping their balls off for a living.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Far too many people here are simply regurgitating the festering contents of their spleen. Ideology is the refuge of the weak-minded who find it too hard to think through the real issues clearly, logically and dispassionately. Put aside your hatred and prejudices for a change. For all the complaining about GM's mistakes most of you would have done far worse in product decisions, and many of GM"s mistakes are driven by what the consumers want. They're between a rock and a hard place, whichever way they go a lot of people will be unhappy. Unions howl because they want to close plants, creditors howl because they aren't closing anough. Consumers howl because Red Tag erodes faith in resale and Value Pricing, dealers howl because they want and end-of-year sale to match everyone else. GM designs tries to design a car to match the Maxima, but they have to do it for thousands less than an Altima - is it any wonder the product suffers? Every product, from the Cobalt to the Escalade is hobbled by the same market demands. If they try and build a competitive car you howl it's too expensive. If they design to match what you'll pay, you howl it's not as good. Aside from closing almost every plant and starting from scratch with a very few models (I mean one or two per division), what else do you think they can do?

[post="47315"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do you mean its not as easy as everyone here(the ones who think Wagoner is an idiot and should be kicked out) makes it seem? Edited November 23, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GEEZ, and people think I'm a conspiracy theorist!

He is a very good example of what is going wrong in this country. If he fell off the map today we would all be better for it.

BINGO!

LOL, this doesn't surprise me.... EVERYONE is against GM now that they're having to (OH MY GOD!) close plants because those SAME people who are aginst GM won't buy their cars but expect the charity of keeping thousands employed. I bet Moore has NEVER bought a GM vehicle or a domestic for that matter.

I can't wait for the NAIAS. Not only will we be covering it  But...it will give us all a time to take a breather from the negative news that is out and about and will shine a positive light on General Motors and it's employees.

Sorry to be the negative one, but.... well, you know. :(

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If Ralph Nader can do it, anybody can.

[post="47067"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:rotflmao:

I still can't wait to piss on his grave.

(For those of you who are new, that was included in my signature on the old board and was sort of a joke of the day)

The upper middle class, liberal Volvo drivers who buy up Michael Moore's works don't really give a damn about the American factory worker, but reading or watching Moore's stuff makes them feel good about themselves. That's what it's all about. And Michael Moore, who was probably a big nerd back in his hometown of Flint, is something of a token blue-collar white guy in the fashionable parties of New York City.

:blink: :AH-HA_wink: :ph34r:

my local news tonight just had a piece tonight about 'what is an American car', where they basically said, well70% of your foreign cars are BUILT here. then they had the obviously liberal professor on who said to the effect of 'the future of american auto industry is toyota, honda, nissan'. it was by no means sympathetic of GM's looming job cuts...in fact, it was quite matter of fact about it. it did mention how the south is the new center of the US auto industry using new plants and non-union labor. They made no statement about how Ford or GM profit paths effect the US economy vs. funneling money to a Japanese company. No mention of currency manipulation and internal trade barriers in Japan. No mention of our companies long history and it being in jeopardy or the lives affected or the trade imbalances in the future.

I'm convinced after that piece, GM is done, Ford likely too. The opinion pushers in the USA are simply going where the story creates the most drama and the US automakers are clearly on the wrong side of the coin right now. I'll try to post the link on this or some other topic, EVERYONE needs to see this piece.

BUT OF COURSE!

Lest any sympathy side track the sheep from achieving the ultimate goal! We must reassure them that what we and they are doing is right and just!

I guess then, as this relates to 'attention whores' (thanks, I love that term) like Michael Moore....it just sounds like he needed to get some publicity and he found the right tool to get it. I honestly haven't seen or read much about him other than that a lot of folks think he's a major ass. I put my notes together here to only say, to those who don't think the media perpetrates stereotypes.....this is a great example. Michael moore wants ON. he gets on. He says whatever he wants about GM to bludgeon them. He likely has no factual basis on anything, nor solutions on how to fix things. Just look at the open and clear path he has to further dig into GM. We didn't hear the other side of the story apparently. So, the public forms an opinion and bingo, things are now worse.

SPOT ON.

I guess my point is: nobody is perfect, and nobody is right or wrong on all the issues. So many people tend to treat Michael Moore as though he is all bad, and I think that is a great tragedy. Those people should be ashamed.

Now take that statement and insert "GM" everywhere "Michael Moore" is and "it" where "he" is.

[regfootball]

What Does it Mean to Buy American - topic

[regfootball]

Like him or not, this is still America - and last time I looked, we still have freedom of speech.  By talking about him, listening to him, we give him the power/money/authority to keep putting himself on the soapbox.  Moore may have dropped out of school, etc - but so have lots of other people - what's the point (other than to bash)?  Moore's genius is that some idiot let him have a film crew & he's used it (several times) to document controversial issues in an divisive ways.  I do disagree with several things Moore has said and some of the method's he uses to convey them.  I agree with Josh here: GM's management is largely to blame for not "getting it" sooner.  But is that the sin of current management or previous ones?

Back in GM's primetime days, competitors were Chrysler and Ford -- everybody else was fringe players & didn't have enough market share in this country to notice and/or pay attention to.  Take a look now.  Besides the ones I've just mentioned, you've also got Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Audi/VW, Hyundai, Kia - and you've also got lower-priced Mercedes/BMW models that are competing against your luxury brands.  The volume of competition alone dictates that you are going to lose market share.  With that lower market share comes cuts, early retirements and plant closings -- and all of the expenses that come with them.  The relative new-comers haven't had the unions organize in their plants yet.  Because of their newness, they don't have the volume of retirees a GM has.  Better yet, a portion of their workforce is still overseas; where there are no (or vastly limited) pension/healthcare issues.  On top of that, some of them experience "bonus profit" due to currency gains in the neighborhood of 25% to 40%.  This allows them to spend more expense on materials and on engineering.  It lets them take risks -- even when the benefits seem marginal (a la hybrids with their mediocre gas mileage improvements).

Is it GM's fault that there is the volume of competition that there is?
Is it GM's fault that they have the volume of retiree's that they do?
Is it GM's fault that pension costs are what they are?
Is it GM's fault that healthcare costs are what they are?

2 decades ago, GM could've started building better cars; with better gas mileage, better quality, better styling - and it would've garnered them more profit from then all the way upto and including today -- but it wouldn't have stopped any of the 4 issues I listed above - and every one of them are significant issues.  I'd even dare to say they are the most crippling issues GM now faces.

[post="47416"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

excellent post.

[cmattson]

Thanks reg -- I take back everything I said about you - especially the good stuff. Just kidding! Couldn't resist - that's one of my favorite lines.

[sciguy_0504]

If it makes you feel any better, I'll always think of you that way.  :lol:

So Michael Moore and GM together again. Just like ice cream and....gravy. Seriously though, dont you think he probably puts gravy on vanilla?

While his comments on the timing of the annoucement are nonsense, the comments on management are probably not-so-nonsensical.

Ah well at least all the republicans get an idea of how stupid people like Rush the pill-popper actually sound when Moore opens his mouth.

[post="47533"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

He puts gravy on everything.

If anyone believes Michael Moore actually tells anything close to the truth in his "documentaries" you really are fooling yourself.

[Munson05]

He puts gravy on everything.

If anyone believes Michael Moore actually tells anything close to the truth in his "documentaries" you really are fooling yourself.

[post="47537"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Its true he does distort facts quite a bit and he is definately not interested in being objective.

[Petra]

A little dissent, now and then, is not a bad thing. Keeps you sharp.

[sciguy_0504]

A little dissent, now and then, is not a bad thing. Keeps you sharp.

[post="47605"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It has be at least somewhat honest dissent.

[turbo200]

Like him or not, this is still America - and last time I looked, we still have freedom of speech.  By talking about him, listening to him, we give him the power/money/authority to keep putting himself on the soapbox.  Moore may have dropped out of school, etc - but so have lots of other people - what's the point (other than to bash)?  Moore's genius is that some idiot let him have a film crew & he's used it (several times) to document controversial issues in an divisive ways.  I do disagree with several things Moore has said and some of the method's he uses to convey them.  I agree with Josh here: GM's management is largely to blame for not "getting it" sooner.  But is that the sin of current management or previous ones?

Back in GM's primetime days, competitors were Chrysler and Ford -- everybody else was fringe players & didn't have enough market share in this country to notice and/or pay attention to.  Take a look now.  Besides the ones I've just mentioned, you've also got Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Audi/VW, Hyundai, Kia - and you've also got lower-priced Mercedes/BMW models that are competing against your luxury brands.  The volume of competition alone dictates that you are going to lose market share.  With that lower market share comes cuts, early retirements and plant closings -- and all of the expenses that come with them.  The relative new-comers haven't had the unions organize in their plants yet.  Because of their newness, they don't have the volume of retirees a GM has.  Better yet, a portion of their workforce is still overseas; where there are no (or vastly limited) pension/healthcare issues.  On top of that, some of them experience "bonus profit" due to currency gains in the neighborhood of 25% to 40%.  This allows them to spend more expense on materials and on engineering.  It lets them take risks -- even when the benefits seem marginal (a la hybrids with their mediocre gas mileage improvements).

Is it GM's fault that there is the volume of competition that there is?
Is it GM's fault that they have the volume of retiree's that they do?
Is it GM's fault that pension costs are what they are?
Is it GM's fault that healthcare costs are what they are?

2 decades ago, GM could've started building better cars; with better gas mileage, better quality, better styling - and it would've garnered them more profit from then all the way upto and including today -- but it wouldn't have stopped any of the 4 issues I listed above - and every one of them are significant issues.  I'd even dare to say they are the most crippling issues GM now faces.

[post="47416"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM should have started spending more money per car a long time ago. This would have helped the market share slide. Yes, more competitors mean less share. Especially when you are giving away share by not building competitive products. Remember, the best advertisement is the rolling one. More people have the car, means more people think it must be a good car and then go and give it a try. The old envious way of humans. People soon discover how good those Japanese cars are and more and more people are gettiing them, more and more people wnat them.

GM could have controlled that market share slide by building cars that were up to standards of the world a long time ago. Michael Moore may not know what he is talking about with regards to the cuts, but he is damn right in asking the GM execs if they've ever driven a Honda or Nissan. DAMN RIGHT.

Michael Moore---well I won't get into this debate. A lot of people are spewing opinion as if it was fact. True he is very manipulative in his arguments, BUT HE USES FACTS FACTS FACTS. HE may use facts to distort more of his opinions, but he uses facts nonetheless. Facts are at the foundation of his argument.

Like, oh ya, Iraq didn't attack us. Why haven't we captured Osama? Facts like those.

Moore is not trying to heighten his cause for his own sake. Take a look at his charitable donations--they are as much as celibrities ten times richer than he is!!! Focus in on the stories he focuses in on, yes he uses them manipulatively--or maybe he actually gives a damn about those people who are clearly and sadly suffering. People like the mother of the child in Flint MI, in Bowling for Colombine.

Moore can own whatever he wants to. Stop complaining that he has purchased an apartment in Manhattan, should I go to your house and steal all the fine jewelry and ask you why aren't you living in poverty? Is that patriotic?

The question was asked has Moore ever thought of buying a Flint, MI built GM vehicle. Let me ask you, why in the world does anybody HAVE to buy something he/she doesn't want? Yes, he can still support GM and its factory workers, but this is the free world, he has the RIGHT to choose whatever car he wants. If he chooses to buy GM, good for him, if he doesn't, it was probably because he found something better. Edited November 23, 2005 by turbo200

[Angry Dad]

My impressions are: GM is the victim of it's own success, it what other business can being the biggest and best cripple you when you are average? GM is also the victim of a political structure that relishes in rewarding incompetence. GM has been targeted as a method to solve social problems. Not only by politicians, lawyers and unions too. That said, it is time for the structure of this nation to understand and embrace the FACT that for GM or and other business in a competitive arena, it needs to place the business above the individual. Be nice to the consumer but when it comes time to build the product, compromises weaken the results. In other words, the times for communities to expect GM to pass out free turkeys are over.

[turbo200]

Far too many people here are simply regurgitating the festering contents of their spleen. Ideology is the refuge of the weak-minded who find it too hard to think through the real issues clearly, logically and dispassionately. Put aside your hatred and prejudices for a change. For all the complaining about GM's mistakes most of you would have done far worse in product decisions, and many of GM"s mistakes are driven by what the consumers want. They're between a rock and a hard place, whichever way they go a lot of people will be unhappy. Unions howl because they want to close plants, creditors howl because they aren't closing anough. Consumers howl because Red Tag erodes faith in resale and Value Pricing, dealers howl because they want and end-of-year sale to match everyone else. GM designs tries to design a car to match the Maxima, but they have to do it for thousands less than an Altima - is it any wonder the product suffers? Every product, from the Cobalt to the Escalade is hobbled by the same market demands. If they try and build a competitive car you howl it's too expensive. If they design to match what you'll pay, you howl it's not as good. Aside from closing almost every plant and starting from scratch with a very few models (I mean one or two per division), what else do you think they can do?

[post="47315"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

We are not complaining about the current management only. The current management should have begun reacting when Lutz came in. Why did it only take Ghosn two years before the Altima came out. I'm sure it might have already been in production, but he brought with him an emphasis on risky design. It paid off.

Lutz brought with him a bold new thought about product design. Why did it take so long to implement. Why has it been four years, and we haven't had a mass market vehicle that was fully under his watch?

Okay, going beyond that, GM should have been spending more dollars per car a long long time ago. Whether they didn't have enough money is another argument. If that was the case then they needed to focus in and BUILD BETTER PRODUCTS. I won't cry and weep over the fact that they didn't have the foresight to kick the competition to the curb. They let too many competition come in and steal their turf from under their feet. They have no one to blame but themselves.

[CaddyXLR-V]

We are not complaining about the current management only. The current management should have begun reacting when Lutz came in. Why did it only take Ghosn two years before the Altima came out. I'm sure it might have already been in production, but he brought with him an emphasis on risky design. It paid off.

Lutz brought with him a bold new thought about product design. Why did it take so long to implement. Why has it been four years, and we haven't had a mass market vehicle that was fully under his watch?

Okay, going beyond that, GM should have been spending more dollars per car a long long time ago. Whether they didn't have enough money is another argument. If that was the case then they needed to focus in and BUILD BETTER PRODUCTS. I won't cry and weep over the fact that they didn't have the foresight to kick the competition to the curb. They let too many competition come in and steal their turf from under their feet. They have no one to blame but themselves.

[post="47618"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM is not Nissan, GM doesnt face the same problems Nissan faced, and GM is many many times larger than Nissan. I think fixing Nissan is a piece of cake compared to what it would take to fix GM. Nissan did not lose millions of customers in the 70s and 80s. Nissan has the Japanese quality perception. Nissan does not have over a million retirees. Nissan doesn't have to adjust to the new players in the market, they are the new players in the market. The US is all growth for them since 1970 Etc....