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Posted

[source: Left Lane News]

Buick to Get Next-Gen Astra In 2011

General Motors will cut ties with its Saturn brand by the end of the year, but that won't mark the end of Opel vehicles in the United States. Saturn currently stands as GM's Opel import division, but that responsibility will soon switch over to Buick.

Although rumors of an Opel-ized Buick have been swirling for some time now, GM' Product Board has officially signed off on the plan, according to GM Inside News. However, the first Opel-sourced Buick product will not be based on the Antara (Saturn Vue) or Insignia as first thought, but rather the Astra hatchback.

The Saturn Astra hasn't exactly set the sales charts on fire, but GM is hoping for a different outcome when Astra switches over to the Buick brand. Unlike the current Astra, Buick will be getting an all-new model designed with the U.S. market in mind.

The new Astra will roll into Buick dealers in late 2011 as a 2012 model, although the Buick version won't likely wear the Astra nameplate. In order to keep costs in line – a major problem with the Saturn Astra – GM will produce the Buick Astra in North America. GM has yet to officially decide on a production location, although the company's Lordstown, Ohio and San Luis Potosi, Mexico plants are the early frontrunners. It remains unclear if both the three- and five-door variants of the Astra will make it into Buick's lineup.

Although there has been a lot of talk about GM's plan to sell Opel, that decision won't affect future Opel-sourced Buick. GM is actually looking to sell Adam Opel, not GME Europe AG. GM Europe owns the rights to all of Opel's designs and engineering, regardless of what happens to the Adam Opel brand.

Posted (edited)

I would sell the sedan and the 5-door hatchback here as the Buick Centieme. I think the 5-door version looks more youthful than the wagon and would probably do more to attract younger buyers to Buick. The design of the new 5-door appears to be more upscale than the current version, which will allow it to fit in Buick's lineup. If Buick could come up with some upscale marketing term for the 5-door other than "hatchback", then I think it could fly.

I'm not sure there will be a next gen Astra TwinTop. The rumors are that Opel might develop a resurrected Calibra coupe on Delta II. If Opel does this, GM should bring it here as the Buick Vivace.

Why "Centieme" and "Vivace"? Why not "Skylark" and "Skyhawk"? As much as I like these established Buick names, I think using them on compact products positioned to attract younger buyers to the brand will fail. For this particular category of the premium segment, I think Buick would be wise to use modified ("Centieme" for "Century") or new ("Vivace") names in an attempt to reinforce the notion that Buick is changing and transforming. Besides, these products are taking Buick into segments where it hasn't been in quite a while, so there really wouldn't be any market confusion in using new or modified names. Since both names have Euro origins and auras, this might help the products appeal to a demographic that is infatuated with anything Euro sourced.

I would still like to see GM hold on to Opel. It is the corporation's established brand in mainland Europe. It would be a shame to see it go. From what I understand, Europeans are very loyal to their homegrown automakers. It would be very difficult for GM to replace Opel with another brand in Europe.

Edited by cire
Posted

I think if it had more Buick styling and less Opel styling, the sedan and wagon would do great here! High teens to mid 20's and it would compete great with the Jetta, which is what many compact buyers consider the premium option. Not sure about the 3 or 5 door as a Buick, but you never know. I suppose they have to sell something to fill up the BG dealerships.

Posted

How much more upscale is this supposed to be than the Cruze? I expect the Cruze to run from $16k-24k or so... the current Astra failed as a Saturn at $18-24k, and I don't see what's so special about the Buick brand that's going to make them be able to sell this at any level above that same $18-24k range as the current Astra. So my question is, what exactly is the point if the Chevy is going to cover the same price range? How many extra sales are they going to get by bringing this vehicle here?

Basically my point is they'd be much better served making an affordable Alpha-based vehicle in the $19-30k range and it wouldn't compete with the Cruze. Of course, I can't see many people buying such a vehicle from Buick either, so I guess the best option is at Chevy.

Posted (edited)
Keep in mind that gas prices are going to shoot back up again. There will be a market for small, fuel efficient, premium vehicles.

How big will that market be? American's buy compacts to save money. I would think there would be a bigger market for a midsized car with more fuel saving technology for $25k, than there would be for more premium compact car for $25k. Especially from Buick. People buy Buicks because they are bigger. I think this will be a failure. Buick will never be Acura.

Edited by CaddyXLR-V
Posted
How big will that market be? American's buy compacts to save money. I would think there would be a bigger market for a midsized car with more fuel saving technology for $25k, than there would be for more premium compact car for $25k. Especially from Buick. People buy Buicks because they are bigger. I think this will be a failure. Buick will never be Acura.

Your way makes more sense to a rational person....but that's also precisely the way the argument fails. People will react in even more irrational ways during the next price spike.

Posted
Your way makes more sense to a rational person....but that's also precisely the way the argument fails. People will react in even more irrational ways during the next price spike.

Exactly, which explains why last year so many people unloaded their already-paid-for midsized cars and SUVs that got 25-30mpgs to go on a waiting list to pay over sticker for a Prius that gets them 40mpg

I've long been an advocate fora properly done compact car for Buick, and now that the G5 is history, such a car becomes crucial for B-G's survival. My personal preference would be for Buick to get its own unique car, but this could work, and better the Astra than something from GMDAT. I think GM will have an easier time justifying the Astra's higher price point as a Buick than they did as a Saturn.

Posted

I would love to see the Calibra coupe with it as a Buick. I had posted about it, a while ago. Cannot find the link - where is Satty?

Here is the link to the original German article translated in English with a render. The translation is horrible.

Another render:

Opel%20Calibra%201.jpg

Posted
Exactly, which explains why last year so many people unloaded their already-paid-for midsized cars and SUVs that got 25-30mpgs to go on a waiting list to pay over sticker for a Prius that gets them 40mpg

I've long been an advocate fora properly done compact car for Buick, and now that the G5 is history, such a car becomes crucial for B-G's survival. My personal preference would be for Buick to get its own unique car, but this could work, and better the Astra than something from GMDAT. I think GM will have an easier time justifying the Astra's higher price point as a Buick than they did as a Saturn.

The Prius is a midsize car with fuel saving technology. To make what I said not true, people would need to be trading in their paid for midsize cars to buy Golfs, and it doesn't seem like that's been the case. They go for the midsize hybrid instead.

I'm just saying, given the choice between an Altima hybrid, and a compact Buick for the same price, most people will go for the Altima. Buick would be better off with a full hybrid version of the Malibu.

Posted
The Prius is a midsize car with fuel saving technology. To make what I said not true, people would need to be trading in their paid for midsize cars to buy Golfs, and it doesn't seem like that's been the case. They go for the midsize hybrid instead.

I'm just saying, given the choice between an Altima hybrid, and a compact Buick for the same price, most people will go for the Altima. Buick would be better off with a full hybrid version of the Malibu.

Try to find an Altima Hybrid... but I see what you're saying. People weren't trading in their paid midsize cars for Pruises... they were climbing down out of Explorers, Trailblazers, Durangos, and the like.

The idea that the Pruis is a midsize car is laughable at best.

I could see people climbing down out of an RDX, MDX, or SRX(old) to buy a premium compact.

Posted

You are absolutely right CaddyXLR-V, but I guess what what Olds and I are saying is, "never underestimate the power of stupid people." The masses have been conditioned to think that smaller = more efficient, and when gas prices do go up, Buick will be ready for those people.

Posted (edited)
Your way makes more sense to a rational person....but that's also precisely the way the argument fails. People will react in even more irrational ways during the next price spike.

a year ago focus were selling at list. dropped my trex at the dealer this morning and there was a focus there, 4 grand off. i know even prius have been slashed in price. if gas goes up again, yes people will do reactionary things. but basically, very few people want the small car in the US. they only buy them for operating cost reasons 90% of the time.

its the endless cycle. GM gets bitched at for not making small cars profitably, but truth is people still can't pay what they need to make them at a profit.

Edited by regfootball
Posted
The idea that the Pruis is a midsize car is laughable at best.

Never been in one, and don't care to be in one for that matter. But they appear to be larger than a Golf, Civic, or Cobalt, so I classified it as midsize.

I'm just not sure if Americans are ready to make the switch to compact cars. Going from an Explorer(which isn't very spacious inside anyway) to a midsize car, isn't as big of a leap as going from a midsize car to a compact car, and I think midsize is the minimum size most Americans are willing to downsize to. Combine that with Buicks traditionally being big cars, and I don't see a compact Buick picking up many sales. They are not going to be peoples first choice when looking to downsize, since it is completely opposite from the image someone gets when they think of Buick.

Posted

As far as passenger area, the Pruis doesn't feel any larger than a Cobalt. It's the hatchback area that pushes it into midsized category.

The Prius is only a mid-size if you're filling it with sand.

As for people buying a smaller Buick. The Skylark was in the $15k - $17k range in the mid-90s and it sold fairly well.

Posted
As far as passenger area, the Pruis doesn't feel any larger than a Cobalt. It's the hatchback area that pushes it into midsized category.

The Prius is only a mid-size if you're filling it with sand.

Thank you. I have more knee room in a Corolla. I'm 6'3" and my right knee is pressed against the dash when driving because it comes out as it heads towards the center stack. Doesn't do that with the Corolla.

Posted
I would love to see the Calibra coupe with it as a Buick. I had posted about it, a while ago. Cannot find the link - where is Satty?

Here is the link to the original German article translated in English with a render. The translation is horrible.

Another render:

Opel%20Calibra%201.jpg

Here's the TopSpeed version of the article:

Link: Visit My Website

Source: TopSpeed

This would make a great product to attract younger people to the brand.

Posted
Here's the TopSpeed version of the article:

Link: Visit My Website

Source: TopSpeed

This would make a great product to attract younger people to the brand.

That's a hot little coupe! I would love a Buick coupe. Name it Riviera and give me the money and SOLD! ;)

Posted (edited)
That's a hot little coupe! I would love a Buick coupe. Name it Riviera and give me the money and SOLD! ;)

Actually, I would like to see the "Riviera" name revived for a midsize personal luxury coupe on the LWB Epsilon II platform.

Since GM was dumb enough not to use the "Invicta" name for the 2010 LaCrosse, maybe Buick could use it on this compact coupe. However, my personal preference would be for GM to get wise and rename the 2010 LaCrosse "Invicta" and call this hot little coupe "Vivace".

Edited by cire
Posted (edited)
at a minimum any small buick should equal the size of the jetta and have equal or better interior.

emulate a loaded jetta.

Yes, a Buick 'Jetta' could do quite well, with Buick styling cues. The Jetta is a nice little package..drove a rental one last year, was pretty loaded. Quite comfortable inside, drove smoothly.

Edited by Cubical
Posted
Yes, a Buick 'Jetta' could do quite well, with Buick styling cues. The Jetta is a nice little package..drove a rental one last year, was pretty loaded. Quite comfortable inside, drove smoothly.

Agreed.

Posted (edited)

opel-considering-the_460x0w.jpg

Throw some Riviera Concept cues on that baby and bring back our Riviera! Could also make a nice Regal Coupe, that could lead to a performance version, say GNX. I personally think that this whole Delta II line should be the Regal line. With coupe, four-door hatch and sedan.

Edited by InvictaMan
Posted

making this car into a regal, with such a recognized name, would go a long way towards redefining the stereotype of buick VERY QUICKLY and thoroughly.

Call it Invicta, and people will be saying, WTF is an invicta and they would have no clue who makes it.

Say, 'i got a new Regal', and i bet even 1/3 of the clueless suburban housemoms even still remember Buick Regal.

make it a coupe and sedan. maybe even consider the wagon. even if it only moved 50k units, its still a great defining product for buick.

it almost makes you wonder if the new LaCrosse shouldnt go back to the LeSabre name. Then, bring back the chinese park avenue. if buick has to sell the astra, make it the buick skylark (sedan) and buick skyhawk (hatch). Only things left are riviera and century! somebody would pine for a roadmaster i bet.

Posted

Here's some more information about the next generation Astra from GM Inside News:

Link: Visit My Website

Source: GM Inside News

I really want to see the 5-door come here as a Buick along with a sedan and coupe. If gas prices continue to go up, this segment will become more important than ever. Buick needs to be there ready to pounce with different variants. I think all three versions are exactly what Buick needs to attract younger buyers to the brand.

I still wouldn't revive the "Skylark" or "Skyhawk" names for these vehicles though. Buick needs to go in a new direction since the compact segment is an area of the market that Buick has been absent from for quite a while. They need to use model names that reinforce the idea that something new and exciting is happening at Buick. Based on some previous posts by other people, I would maybe split the models between the following three names:

* Centieme: This would be the sedan version. "Centieme" would allow Buick to sort of revive the "Century" name, but avoid the negative and outdated connotations associated with that name. Since the sedan is the most traditional Buick bodystyle of the three, using a heavily modified version of a classic Buick name would be appropriate.

* Invicta: Since GM is foolishly not going to resurrect this name for the brand's new LWB Eps II flagship sedan (AKA the 2010 LaCrosse), I would apply this name to the sporty compact coupe version of the Astra (or possibly Calibra?). "Invicta" sounds upscale and sporty, which would be the perfect combination of concepts to apply to this vehicle (I would then use the "LeSabre" name on the 2010 LaCrosse). I would not use the waterfall grille on this product though. Buick coupes should have a simpler grille design. I would insert a larger version of the Buick trishield in the trapezoidal grille opening flanked by a horizontial chrome bar on either side of the badge (this badge treatment could also be used on the rear of the vehicle).

* Vivace: Since hatchbacks are primarily a Euro phenomenon, I would apply an international, Euro sounding name to the 5-door hatchback product in the hopes that it will appeal to those who fancy themselves more worldly and sophisticated than the mainstream. I would market this product as a "sports tourer" or "cross tourer" instead of a hatchback to avoid the negative U.S. based perception for this particular bodystyle. I know using alternative terms is just silly marketing speak and labeling, but it can effectively make something appear cooler than it would otherwise.

Instead of giving Buick a dedicated hybrid or electric model, I would simply supply those powertrains as options on these vehicles.

Other products I would like to see in Buick's lineup:

* Bengal: A small 2-seat coupe built on the Gamma platform. Since it is a coupe, it would have the same badge/grille treatment as suggested for the Invicta above.

* Velite: Basically, the next gen Corsa 5-door. If the next gen Corsa 5-door receives the same upscale looking design as the next gen Astra 5-door, then it should be an appropriate product to include in Buick's lineup to help the brand meet future CAFE regulations as well as satisfy evolving market conditions and expectations.

* Regal: Basically, a rebadged Insignia sedan.

* Riviera: A flagship personal luxury coupe built on the LWB Eps II platform. The grille treatment should be the model's exclusive cursive "R" badge flanked by a horizontal chrome bar on either side of the badge..

* Bravura: Basically, the next gen Opel Meriva MPV. This product would come equipped with the reverse hinged rear passenger doors featured on the recent Meriva Concept. The Meriva Concept hopefully previews a vehicle that will look more upscale and less minivan-ish than the current version. This will help it fit into Buick's lineup and be successful in the U.S.

* Rendezvous: Basically, the next gen Opel Zafira MPV. Like the Bravura, this vehicle would have reverse hinged rear passenger doors (which would be an exclusive Buick MPV feature).

All of these products would be added to the Enclave and 2010 LeSabre (oops! I mean LaCrosse) to give Buick one heck of a solid midmarket premium product portfolio.

Posted

More pictures of the new Astra 5-door:

Link: Visit My Website

Source: Net Car Show

Link: Visit My Website

Source: Official Vauxhall Astra Mini-site

This is one great looking 5-door. I used to think that the Mazda3 5-door was nice, but Mazda ruined it with the 2010 remodel. The new Astra 5-door would give Buick a solid competitor that would attract a lot of younger buyers to the brand. GM would be foolish to keep this Astra variant out of Buick's lineup.

Posted (edited)

I see a lot of Mazda 3 on the Astra's greenhouse and rear end... not a bad thing, as it doesn't have an idiot-smile grille up front like the Mazda.

Re coupes, there's a rumour about an Insignia Coupe (a new Calibra?), so maybe there could be a 2-door Buick Regal GNX for the US in the future. As for smaller coupes, the Astra GTC is supposed to be more coupe-like. I hope Buick in NA gets the full Astra range.

Edited by ZL-1
Posted

Okay, I'll bite. I HATE 5-doors but this looks nice. As long as Buick gives a small premium sedan with it, I'll give a thumbs up. Just do the interior really sweet and offer a decent powertrain. The Astra we have now was really lacking not offering a second engine.

Posted (edited)
I would not use the waterfall grille on this product though. Buick coupes should have a simpler grille design. I would insert a larger version of the Buick trishield in the trapezoidal grille opening flanked by a horizontial chrome bar on either side of the badge

Seeing that the waterfall grill has been used profusely on the new Buicks, I might agree with you; however, this is one of the nicest uses of the grill to-date. It looks good on this body shape and makes this compact look more upscale than its Opel cousin. I could go for the horizontal chrome bar in the lower facia opening, that is an already established Buick theme.

Edited by InvictaMan
Posted (edited)

This was a quickie study to see if it works, so please no chop critique, it was literally done in 3 minutes. What do you think of this option Cire? It kinda looks nice with the horizontal shapes going through the front wheel openings. Unique placement of logo, clean waterfall, a move from the ordinary without breaking Buick language. And a cheap do too. Of course, if we want to be true Skylark, a big honking logo on a stick on the front hood would be nice, lol.

regalchop2.jpg

Edited by InvictaMan
Posted
I think if it had more Buick styling and less Opel styling, the sedan and wagon would do great here! High teens to mid 20's and it would compete great with the Jetta, which is what many compact buyers consider the premium option. Not sure about the 3 or 5 door as a Buick, but you never know. I suppose they have to sell something to fill up the BG dealerships.

:scratchchin: This sounds like having Buick have product that would compete with Chevy again. I thought everyone here did not want that. Keep it as a mid luxury level dealership and have them compete with asian and european auto makers and stop competeing with itself. I do not see that as a smart move for Buick.

Posted (edited)
:scratchchin: This sounds like having Buick have product that would compete with Chevy again. I thought everyone here did not want that. Keep it as a mid luxury level dealership and have them compete with asian and european auto makers and stop competeing with itself. I do not see that as a smart move for Buick.

Only if Chevy keeps moving up market. I thought Chevy was supposed to do battle with the Asians, you know, the Toyotas and the Hondas. If this Buick was done correctly, it would not be in the same market.

Edited by InvictaMan
Posted

the cruze has genuine korean DNA. the astra has noticeable German DNA. sitting in the two, you won't confuse them. What bugs the tar out of me, is if we have to put up with tiny 1.4 litre motors and 120 hp. i fully expect this car be available with at least a 200hp min. optional motor. If not, fk GM this car won't sell with a Buick badge unless you get anything besides a buzzer out from under the hood.

Posted
This was a quickie study to see if it works, so please no chop critique, it was literally done in 3 minutes. What do you think of this option Cire? It kinda looks nice with the horizontal shapes going through the front wheel openings. Unique placement of logo, clean waterfall, a move from the ordinary without breaking Buick language. And a cheap do too. Of course, if we want to be true Skylark, a big honking logo on a stick on the front hood would be nice, lol.

regalchop2.jpg

Well... if we're going to keep the waterfall grille, then the buick trishield needs to stay centered on the grille. The badge looks a little awkward sitting below the grille.

Is this the grille from the recent Riviera Concept? The grille looked great on the concept, but it looks a bit odd on the chopped picture. It may be because it is sitting much lower on the chopped picture, maybe? It looks a little like a big toothy smile instead of the iconic Buick waterfall grille. If it was moved up higher with the bottom of the grille matching the bottom of the grille opening on the Opel version, then it might look much better. The grille on the Riviera Concept actually cut into the hood.

I'm just offering a suggesting. I really don't mean to critique your work (I realize that it was a quick chop job). I applaud your interest and efforts.

I do like the horizontal bar in the lower grille, though.

As far as the "badge on a stick" suggestion (AKA "The Hood Ornament"?), I say "No, No, No". That retro touch needs to mercifully stay buried in automotive history (but it was good for a LOL moment).

Posted (edited)
Is this the grille from the recent Riviera Concept? It looks a little like a big toothy smile instead of the iconic Buick waterfall grille.

Yup, that's it, at least as best as it could be on a quick refit and change of perspective. The Riviera Concept grill actually drops low into the bumper. Talk about a big toothy grill, in an effort to visualize the already known, the Riv grill was used to best represent this...

buick-opel-astra.jpg

The Buick HRV version of the new Astra. Which is undoubtedly what we will see here in the US, if this model comes.

Much toothier and less refined I'm afraid. Maybe it doesn't drop down as far as the Riv, but based on proportions, it looks like it terminates low. The lower fascia in the HRV is the same mesh we see in the Enclave and LaCrosse, no horizontal bar. However, I did take artist license and sport up the shape some for a coupe. Sorry, but all of these images I do for everyone lately is in less than 5 minutes. No time to perfect them.

Edited by InvictaMan
Posted
Yup, that's it, at least as best as it could be on a quick refit and change of perspective. The Riviera Concept grill actually drops low into the bumper. Talk about a big toothy grill, in an effort to visualize the already known, the Riv grill was used to best represent this...

buick-opel-astra.jpg

The Buick HRV version of the new Astra. Which is undoubtedly what we will see here in the US, if this model comes.

Much toothier and less refined I'm afraid. Maybe it doesn't drop down as far as the Riv, but based on proportions, it looks like it terminates low. The lower fascia in the HRV is the same mesh we see in the Enclave and LaCrosse, no horizontal bar. However, I did take artist license and sport up the shape some for a coupe. Sorry, but all of these images I do for everyone lately is in less than 5 minutes. No time to perfect them.

I guess I'm looking at it a different way, but the Riviera Concept's grille looks like it starts higher up on the hood and only dips slightly below the headlights. There appears to be plenty of surface area below it to me (Link: Visit My Website, Source: Net Car Show). It actually looks like an extension of the elevated section of the hood. That's just how I see it; of course everyone sees things differently. I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm just trying to convey how it looks to me.

As for the Astra based HRV; it looks like they simply applied a Buick waterfall grille over the opening where the Opel grille existed. If anything, they might have put the upper edge of the grille slightly above the existing opening since the Buick grille actually juts out and then flows down. I don't think it will sit any lower or exceed the bottom of the existing opening of the Opel version. Again, this is simply how I see it. Link: Visit My Website, Source: China Car Forums. I think it will look fine and appropriate, just like the rest of the car.

Don't be sorry for using your talents to express your interest or enthusiasm in the brand. I know I offered some constructive feedback based on my tastes or vision for the brand, but that doesn't mean that your efforts are not appreciated or valued. It's great to know that there is someone else who appreciates Buick and is excited about the brand's future and potential. I don't have the tools or ability to do chops, so I enjoy looking at what other people create and submit and subsequently exchanging ideas and opinions about them.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm just trying to convey how it looks to me.

Sorry this took a while, real world hit me, lol. Not a problem at all Cire, I appreciate everyone's opinion, whether I agree or not. Actually, you and I agree more than disagree about the revitalization of the Buick brand. My comments were meant to say: I enjoy doing these occasional chops to help visualize things for folks here, just regret that I haven't had as much time to put into them lately. I express myself in pictures, you express yourself in words. We each have our own talents.

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Mmmm, this interior sure says premium Buick compact, down to the ambient lighting. And how interesting that the last image shows a blue glow in those dash gauges instead of the red from the other pics. The dash, waterfall, gauges and steering wheel look amazingly LaCrosse don't they? With a sporty edge.

Leftlane images of new Astra interior.

Edited by InvictaMan
Posted (edited)
Mmmm, this interior sure says premium Buick compact, down to the ambient lighting. And how interesting that the last image shows a blue glow in those dash gauges instead of the red from the other pics. The dash, waterfall, gauges and steering wheel look amazingly LaCrosse don't they? With a sporty edge.

Leftlane images of new Astra interior.

I agree. There's no reason why this can't join Buick's lineup sometime next year. Buick could market it as more of a baby Enclave crossover type of vehicle instead of a hatchback (which I know is ridiculous, but you know the stigma the U.S. market apparently has with the term "hatchback"; maybe Buick can market it as a "sports tourer" like Opel markets the Insignia wagon in Europe). The car is a nice blend of elegance and sportiness that would help change Buick's geriatric image and attract a younger demographic to the brand. Just change the interior lighting to blue (I love the ambient lighting throughout the cabin!), slap on a waterfall grille and some trishield badges, give it a cool new name ("Centieme", "Vectra", "Bravura"; just a few suggestions), and it would be good to go as a Buick. Since GM has just decided to kill the Vibe after the 2009 model year, it would be a good time to get this car into Buick's lineup.

Of course, I would still expect a compact sedan to follow shortly after. The 5-door would still be a good place to start as far as expanding Buick downward size-wise, though.

Edited by cire

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