Pontiac Should Have Had Genesis Coupe

[Z-06]

[source: InsideLine]

Why the Genesis Coupe Shoulda Been a Pontiac

This semi-regular column is written (in his own blood) by an automotive sage and noted malcontent, known as The Mechanic. Mercilessly beaten as a child with rolled-up back issues of old car magazines, our free-spoken hero developed a unique "for your own good" take on cars and the auto industry, along with an unfortunate habit of setting himself ablaze. Later, after a distinguished career as an automotive journalist and magazine editor, he cast off the reins of his musty oppressors, carved out his superego with a plastic spork and became The Mechanic.

Man, what a couple of weeks. Between the swine flu and every single company in America except ol' Edmunds Inc. declaring bankruptcy, I'm ready to fire up the kerosene generator and find my way in the dark for a while. Live off the grid, as they say.

I could probably do it, but not without the DTs. The things I would miss the most are the cars and my iPhone. Don't laugh. I'm not really a techie, but I just got this great app. It's called Get a Life. You share it with your iPhone-addicted friends and it kills them.

Which brings me to Pontiac. It's been sentenced to death, as I'm sure you've heard, and I'm not really that cool with it. Fact is, it shouldn't have happened. Pontiac's demise wasn't fate. It was murder. Cold-blooded murder. A result of bad management, and proof that people who don't like cars shouldn't work at car companies.

Don't get me wrong, it's a mercy killing. Poor thing was suffering. The G3? Give me a freakin' break. Glad to see it go. But I look around the industry and see cars being built by other car companies and I think, "See? That should be a Pontiac." If they were, maybe Pontiac would be kickin' ass instead of pushin' daisies.

What am I talking about?

Well, let's start with the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. $22,000. Turbo engine. Rear-wheel drive. It should be a Pontiac. Talk about a modern-day GTO or Firebird.

Or the Mazda CX-7 and CX-9. Both are affordable, attractive, strong-performing crossovers that look good and allow dads who can't afford a BMW X5 to have a little fun while they're hauling the kids to Chuck E Cheese. Both should be Pontiacs.

Then there's the Mini Cooper. Small. Economical. Affordable and fun. A premium small car for guys who don't want just an econobox. Guys with big ideas and expensive taste but limited resources. Values once at the core of Pontiac in its heyday.

For a more mainstream small car I think the Mazda 3 (yes, another Mazda) with its two body styles and Mazdaspeed variant would fit the Pontiac mold well, but the Civic and Civic Si would work as well.

How about the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8? Our fictitious successful Pontiac would have a true muscle truck, and the Jeep runs with the $100,000 Porsche Cayenne Turbo and Mercedes ML63 AMG for less than half the cash. A modern-day Bonneville.

Hmmm, what else do we need? Oh yes, a sedan.

Kidding. I would keep the G8 around in all its forms -- V6, GT and GXP -- but I would add the wagon and a coupe to the mix. And by coupe I, of course, mean the Camaro. There would be a Pontiac version of the Camaro, essentially making the G8 a subfamily of Pontiacs, much like Land Rover is doing with the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport.

And if you have a coupe, then of course you cut off its roof and make a convertible.

Seems like a fine lineup of machines to me. Each is fun, affordable and high in build quality. They are both desirable and aspirational, but also obtainable. Sure, everything will skew male, but many of these products appeal to women as well. And there is not one in the bunch that doesn't put a priority on dynamics.

That said, it's too late. Pontiac is going to that big boulevard of cars in the sky. And this list of would-be Ponchos is just one man's feeble attempt to set the world right.

What do you think? Would such a lineup have saved Pontiac? Doesn't really matter anyway, since we're all going to die of the swine flu by summer. -- The Mechanic Inside Line, Contributor

E-mail me at [email protected].

[z28luvr01]

I'm convinced that when Jesus Christ returns to the earth, he will take the form of a Hyundai Genesis coupe. Is it possible for the rags to gush any more over this car? Their "dream" lineup for Pontiac is pretty stupid anyay. No muscle SUVs or crossover could've saved Pontiac. The only idea of theirs that I like is the Mini competitior. And they tossed the Solstice, which was about as Pontiac as could be.

Fact is, we can go on and on about what Pontiac should've had. Corporate infighting and poor decision making on GM's part led to Pontiac's death, and that's that.

[Robert Hall]

Well, just like the Genesis sedan (not the styling, but the platform and content) represents what would have made a great Buick, the Genesis coupe (not styling, but the sportiness, RWD, low price, etc) would definitely have made a great Pontiac. It's not just another FWD generic like GM loves to build, it's actually something worthwhile. Sadly, not going to happen..GM is retreating to being 'Generic Motors', just with fewer lookalike FWD models than before. Something like the Genesis coupe represents what the next G6 should have been.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Cubical

[Camino LS6]

He's quite right in spirit, but not so much in the examples or scope of his lineup.

A smaller, more focused lineup is what should have been.

Calling the death of Pontiac murder is spot-on, but he left out the years of torture at the hands of incompetent management.

[Lamar]

Calling the death of Pontiac murder is spot-on, but he left out the years of torture at the hands of incompetent management.

That would make it "BTK."

[ZL-1]

I think the whole concept/idea behind the Genesis is exactly what the Pontiac G6 should have been.

[cire]

I personally don't think the Genesis Coupe is all that appealing design-wise. It looks like an overly stylized imitation of the Infiniti G37 coupe. The idea behind the car is sweet (affordable RWD coupe), but the actual appearance of the car isn't all that attractive to me.

I would have rather seen Pontiac with something like this:

Link: Visit My Website

Link: Visit My Website

Source: NetCarShow

Now this is the real deal. Clean, simple, sporty, and purposeful lines. Everything Pontiac should be.

[Camino LS6]

G6 should have been true to concept.

[hyperv6]

I personally don't think the Genesis Coupe is all that appealing design-wise. It looks like an overly stylized imitation of the Infiniti G37 coupe. The idea behind the car is sweet (affordable RWD coupe), but the actual appearance of the car isn't all that attractive to me.

I would have rather seen Pontiac with something like this:

Link: Visit My Website

Link: Visit My Website

Source: NetCarShow

Now this is the real deal. Clean, simple, sporty, and purposeful lines. Everything Pontiac should be.

The car is not that attractive to most of us American loving car people. The fact is the large share of the market likes cars like this now and are willing to spend money on them.

GM needs to make a Chevy that can compete in this class no later than 5 years from now or they will be very late to the party again.

The Genesis give that G37 image at a Hyundia price. Kind of a modern replay of the 1957 Chevy giving that upscale Cadillac image at a Chevy price. People always want more car than they can afford and that is what Hyundia is making them feel like they are getting.

[hyperv6]

G6 should have been true to concept.

Then the press would complain it had no head room with the lower top. The G6 was never going to win many hearts let alone souls.

[hyperv6]

Fact is, we can go on and on about what Pontiac should've had. Corporate infighting and poor decision making on GM's part led to Pontiac's death, and that's that.

That is the truth.

Pontiac had a long history of being the GM redheaded step chid. The only times they did great cars is when they broke GM's rules. GM managment had a division the engineers understood but the corperate big wigs had no idea what to do with it nor give them the proper support to do what they could.

At this point there is no point in would of, could of should of.

Let just bury Pontiac and fix Chevy to make it right and offer the cars we want and they need.

[gm4life]

That is the truth.

Pontiac had a long history of being the GM redheaded step chid. The only times they did great cars is when they broke GM's rules. GM managment had a division the engineers understood but the corperate big wigs had no idea what to do with it nor give them the proper support to do what they could.

At this point there is no point in would of, could of should of.

Let just bury Pontiac and fix Chevy to make it right and offer the cars we want and they need.

Well as sad as I am, I really kind-of have to agree with you.

[gm4life]

G6 should have been true to concept.

I agree, but the MCE on it helps alot. A friend of my sons whom he goes to college with is considering getting one before they go away. He really likes them alot and is willing to pull his new car purchase ahead so he can get another Pontiac because he likes them. Currently he has a Richard Petty Blue '95 Grand Prix SE Coupe with a 3.1 V6 and loves it, with a 125K on it and she runs like a top.

Edited May 7, 2009 by gm4life

[balthazar]

>>"the Genesis coupe (not styling, but the sportiness, RWD, low price, etc) would definitely have made a great Pontiac."<<

Already had a great, sporty RWD coupe: GTO. It already happened.

>>"I personally don't think the Genesis Coupe is all that appealing design-wise."<<

You're not alone- there's very little cohesiveness and no fresh thinking here.

>>"The car is not that attractive to most of us American loving car people."<<

The car is not that attractive to most of us car loving people that value good design.

>>"Kind of a modern replay of the 1957 Chevy giving that upscale Cadillac image at a Chevy price. "<<

Ahh hyper; your historical analogies always get a chuckle out of me!

>>"Pontiac had a long history of being the GM redheaded step chid. The only times they did great cars is when they broke GM's rules."<<

The only rule PMD broke was the GTO's optional 389; loads of other 'by-the-book' great cars were built !!!

>>"Let just bury Pontiac and fix Chevy to make it right and offer the cars we want "<<

But, you see; "we" don't want Chevy cars.

[Cory Wolfe]

>>"the Genesis coupe (not styling, but the sportiness, RWD, low price, etc) would definitely have made a great Pontiac."<<

Already had a great, sporty RWD coupe: GTO. It already happened.

It wasn't nearly as affordable, costing over $10k more than what the Genesis bases at. As such, it's going to have limited appeal at that price. It would have been great to have a full line of Monaros imported over with the GTO given more unique styling above to rest to appease those who couldn't appreciate the design. Could have made a great line of Grand Prixs in the lower trims with that one SEMA concept representing the actual GTO.

Unfortunately, all these 'what if's' and imagining what could have saved the brand doesn't change anything.

[Robert Hall]

It wasn't nearly as affordable, costing over $10k more than what the Genesis bases at. As such, it's going to have limited appeal at that price. It would have been great to have a full line of Monaros imported over with the GTO given more unique styling above to rest to appease those who couldn't appreciate the design. Could have made a great line of Grand Prixs in the lower trims with that one SEMA concept representing the actual GTO.

Unfortunately, all these 'what if's' and imagining what could have saved the brand doesn't change anything.

Yes, the GTO was in a different market... there should be room for both largish RWD V8 hefty 'musclecar' style coupes and smaller, RWD 4 cyl/ V6 sports coupes---different markets, different buyers. As I said before, the Genesis is an entry in a market niche Japan, Inc quit a while back..it's like the RWD Celica and 240SX of the past. Or the Prelude or Integra.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Cubical

[cire]

The car is not that attractive to most of us American loving car people. The fact is the large share of the market likes cars like this now and are willing to spend money on them.

I'm not particularly partial to American design. I just think the design of the Genesis Coupe is too busy and tries too hard to make a statement (which is probably the point since Hyundai is entering a new segment with this product). The Coupe 60 Concept has simple yet sporty lines that look effortless; it's a classic design that has an evolutionary future. I do admire that Hyundai has entered the segment, but I don't exactly care for the looks of the finished product. I do agree that it will appeal to a lot of people; it just doesn't appeal to me (which is fine, it doesn't need to).

GM needs to make a Chevy that can compete in this class no later than 5 years from now or they will be very late to the party again.

I thought that was the purpose of the Camaro? The only difference I see is that the Camaro went the retro route and drew on its iconic history while Hyundai went a more modern route with its design (which is appropriate since it doesn't have any iconic, historic models from which to draw inspiration). If GM would install a turbocharged 4-cylinder in the Camaro, then I would say the 2 are about even (except for the overall design approaches).

The Genesis give that G37 image at a Hyundia price. Kind of a modern replay of the 1957 Chevy giving that upscale Cadillac image at a Chevy price. People always want more car than they can afford and that is what Hyundia is making them feel like they are getting.

I do agree with this statement. Expanding on this train of thought, I also think GM missed out on an opportunity to make Pontiac an affordable alternative to BMW. A production version of the Torana TT36 Concept on a downsized version of Zeta would have made a great affordable alternative to those who want but couldn't afford a 3-Series sedan (Pontiac LeMans). I think a production version of the Coupe 60 Concept would have had a similar appeal (Pontiac GTO). I think a smaller 3-door coupe with the same Holden inspired styling direction would have been a great addition to Pontiac's lineup too (Pontiac Fiero). It still amazes me that GM let Pontiac's potential and the underutilized Zeta platform go to waste.

[regfootball]

People always want more car than they can afford and that is what Hyundia is making them feel like they are getting.

that still really is the main draw for hyundai buyers, some sort of concept of a deal, coupled with 'that big warranty' (GM's powertrain warranty is transferrable) and the whole new and up and coming thing.

its a demographic thing. fans of the asian cars grew up in a culture that insisted they hate US brand cars. strike one. two, if you are younger, you ain't gonna have much cash, so obviously for those who can't get credit themselves, or need to keep the price down, any car with more band for the buck will seem like it was custom made for them. it's ATTAINABLE. three, they were told US brand cars were unreliable but its so funny because fans of the asian coupes are younger as opposed to many camaro fans and honestly how many of them have been driving long enough to say any brand is unreliable. if you have never owned a brand new car, or made car payments and been burned by having to make a spendy fix, if all you are judging reliability on is consumer reports or heresay, and what you have to pay to keep the 7 year old car you bought running, then its flawed thinking to begin with. to some degree you can honestly empathize with someone in their 50's who owned some of GM's really crappy stuff in the 70's and 80's and put up with it over and over again. but those who make decisions without a basis of experience (I'm sorry, but you can't judge ownership experience of say, today's GM cars, based upon the fact you bought an 8 year old Olds Intrigue and the manifold gasket went out or something). You didn't own the car in the prime of its stay. Any car 5+ years old is going to need propping up. And likewise, those who thought they would try toyota because everyone said toyotas don't break, and then got a tundra with exploding camshafts or camrys that couldn't shift or sludged up etc.

So many people obviously recall the 5 GM cars etc. they needed to fix because most cars need fixing. my sister used to bitch about ever having to fix her beretta. But she'll never mention how she had the effing thing for like 14 years. If everyone owned 8 toyotas chances are over time you wouldn't have people glowing about them either. Ultimate point, if you were taught to bash US cars and had not yet found out that other brands are mortal too, that whole mancrush bit on the up and comers thats why that is there. A fashion based culture, whatever is the newest look.

It does sort of make sense though that Pontiac should have focused more on driver hardware, but that was just GM at its finest. Trying to pass half executed off as the real deal. History will look back on this decade and find that the car buyers were extremely savvy to detail and quite spoiled in terms of features and technology. I am wondering if 2000-2006 or 7 won't go down as perhaps they greatest if not most prolific era in the auto industry. cause trust me, based upon the mandates being passed down by the kremlin DC, cars like this hyundai will be a luxury.

by the way, why didn't hyundai make the 4 popper a 2.5? woulda made more sense to make a 2.5 turbo with 300hp and save the 100 pounds compared to the large nose heavy v6. the ecotec gets 300hp with the stage whatever kit. the lighter 4 with ecotec power would turn the same times as the v6 scoupe coupe and wouldn't have 56% of the weight on the front end like good BMW's have.-sarcasm-

Edited May 7, 2009 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

I'm not particularly partial to American design. I just think the design of the Genesis Coupe is too busy and tries too hard to make a statement (which is probably the point since Hyundai is entering a new segment with this product). The Coupe 60 Concept has simple yet sporty lines that look effortless; it's a classic design that has an evolutionary future. I do admire that Hyundai has entered the segment, but I don't exactly care for the looks of the finished product. I do agree that it will appeal to a lot of people; it just doesn't appeal to me (which is fine, it doesn't need to).

I thought that was the purpose of the Camaro? The only difference I see is that the Camaro went the retro route and drew on its iconic history while Hyundai went a more modern route with its design (which is appropriate since it doesn't have any iconic, historic models from which to draw inspiration). If GM would install a turbocharged 4-cylinder in the Camaro, then I would say the 2 are about even (except for the overall design approaches).

I do agree with this statement. Expanding on this train of thought, I also think GM missed out on an opportunity to make Pontiac an affordable alternative to BMW. A production version of the Torana TT36 Concept on a downsized version of Zeta would have made a great affordable alternative to those who want but couldn't afford a 3-Series sedan (Pontiac LeMans). I think a production version of the Coupe 60 Concept would have had a similar appeal (Pontiac GTO). I think a smaller 3-door coupe with the same Holden inspired styling direction would have been a great addition to Pontiac's lineup too (Pontiac Fiero). It still amazes me that GM let Pontiac's potential and the underutilized Zeta platform go to waste.

The Camaro is just a modern version of an old Pony car not what many consider new gound. Where the Hyundia has taken the size and perfromance of an Eclipes and transfered it to a car that offeres RWD in the kind of performance they like in a Turbo 4 and popular V6. There just is a large import loving market that was crying for a smaller RWD car and Hyundia gave them one at an afordable price. The Chevy is still look upon as old school.

As mfor styling it does not matter if you or I care for it because many many other wilkling to sped money will. GM needs to take all the money they can form all buyers noitjust the ones who what retro performance with a modern edge.

As for the waste of the Zeta. It was more a matter of bad timing. They did the right thing by delaing it to make it cheaper but it was still a car they needed 5-8 years earlier. Now it is a larger car in times when most people are not looking that big no matter how good the deal. And then toss in the fact Pontiac is going over to make people turn away even more. Lets face it down sizing the Zeta would have not been easy. I would liek to think Holden could do a better job on the Alpha for a proper Torana that will last much longer into the futre. Lets face it the Zeta was a updated older platform.

I still have a gut feeling if gas proces do not go sky high in the next two years we will see a limited import of the Chevy Caprice form Holden. It is a no brainer and they can make money even in low import numbers. Besides Holden needs the money. But they will not anounce this till the supply of G8's are used up.

Edited May 7, 2009 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight.

These minute differences neccesitate spec sheets to discern, for the most part.

The idea that this is some sort 'new direction' for the 'future success of the segment' is a laughfest.

[Robert Hall]

People keep missing the point. I've already said it twice. The Genesis is just that latest in the 'sport compact ' market, which had largely died out. They had 4 cylinders and V6s. Anyone remember the Celica or 240SX? Or the Prelude or for that matter, Hyundai's own Tiberon? Different market niche than the Camaro.

GM and Ford have tried this market in the past, i.e. with the RWD Monza and Capri in the '70s, to the Probe and Beretta in the '80s-90s.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Cubical

[Cory Wolfe]

that still really is the main draw for hyundai buyers, some sort of concept of a deal, coupled with 'that big warranty' (GM's powertrain warranty is transferrable) and the whole new and up and coming thing.

its a demographic thing. fans of the asian cars grew up in a culture that insisted they hate US brand cars. strike one. two, if you are younger, you ain't gonna have much cash, so obviously for those who can't get credit themselves, or need to keep the price down, any car with more band for the buck will seem like it was custom made for them. it's ATTAINABLE. three, they were told US brand cars were unreliable but its so funny because fans of the asian coupes are younger as opposed to many camaro fans and honestly how many of them have been driving long enough to say any brand is unreliable. if you have never owned a brand new car, or made car payments and been burned by having to make a spendy fix, if all you are judging reliability on is consumer reports or heresay, and what you have to pay to keep the 7 year old car you bought running, then its flawed thinking to begin with. to some degree you can honestly empathize with someone in their 50's who owned some of GM's really crappy stuff in the 70's and 80's and put up with it over and over again. but those who make decisions without a basis of experience (I'm sorry, but you can't judge ownership experience of say, today's GM cars, based upon the fact you bought an 8 year old Olds Intrigue and the manifold gasket went out or something). You didn't own the car in the prime of its stay. Any car 5+ years old is going to need propping up. And likewise, those who thought they would try toyota because everyone said toyotas don't break, and then got a tundra with exploding camshafts or camrys that couldn't shift or sludged up etc.

So many people obviously recall the 5 GM cars etc. they needed to fix because most cars need fixing. my sister used to bitch about ever having to fix her beretta. But she'll never mention how she had the effing thing for like 14 years. If everyone owned 8 toyotas chances are over time you wouldn't have people glowing about them either. Ultimate point, if you were taught to bash US cars and had not yet found out that other brands are mortal too, that whole mancrush bit on the up and comers thats why that is there. A fashion based culture, whatever is the newest look.

It does sort of make sense though that Pontiac should have focused more on driver hardware, but that was just GM at its finest. Trying to pass half executed off as the real deal. History will look back on this decade and find that the car buyers were extremely savvy to detail and quite spoiled in terms of features and technology. I am wondering if 2000-2006 or 7 won't go down as perhaps they greatest if not most prolific era in the auto industry. cause trust me, based upon the mandates being passed down by the kremlin DC, cars like this hyundai will be a luxury.

by the way, why didn't hyundai make the 4 popper a 2.5? woulda made more sense to make a 2.5 turbo with 300hp and save the 100 pounds compared to the large nose heavy v6. the ecotec gets 300hp with the stage whatever kit. the lighter 4 with ecotec power would turn the same times as the v6 scoupe coupe and wouldn't have 56% of the weight on the front end like good BMW's have.-sarcasm-

Say it with me: Assumptions.

genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight.

These minute differences neccesitate spec sheets to discern, for the most part.

The idea that this is some sort 'new direction' for the 'future success of the segment' is a laughfest.

A Cobalt is 94% the size of the Malibu and 88% of it's weight. Oh noes!!!!1!1!!

[hyperv6]

genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight.

These minute differences neccesitate spec sheets to discern, for the most part.

The idea that this is some sort 'new direction' for the 'future success of the segment' is a laughfest.

The fact is it is still smaller and lighter. These are important to the import crowd. For Gods sake these are the people willing to drive around in a gutted CRX just to go faster.

The bottom line is this is a car that is affordable to the import people who could care less about the Camaro and Mustang. It finally gives them a car they can afford and can try to drift in a parking lot without plastic food trays under the rear wheels of a FWD. [Yes they are doing this. Check out on YouTube].

The fact is there is a growing segment of the market that does not require 8 cylinders anylonger as they understand how to make power with smaller engines. They are also wieght aware as less weight is more performance in more than one area. As time goes on this segemnet not only will grow but be required as with fuel standard predicted to reach 50+ MPG in the next 20 years changes will have to come not because we want them but because the MFG will have to make them.

This is just the direction Chevy needs to move in for the next Camaro or RWD coupe they build. Smaller lighter.

Edited May 8, 2009 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

Say it with me: Assumptions.

A Cobalt is 94% the size of the Malibu and 88% of it's weight. Oh noes!!!!1!1!!

Yes, and they are clearly in two different categories...one a compact, one a midsize. Balthy of all people, as the oracle of all automotive historical knowledge, should know that the many categories have been around and expanding and contracting for decades...

Edited May 8, 2009 by Cubical

[hyperv6]

Yes, and they are clearly in two different categories...one a compact, one a midsize. Balthy of all people, as the oracle of all automotive historical knowledge, should know that the many categories have been around and expanding and contracting for decades...

This is not a matter of catagories but a matter of trends based on needs and wants of the public. The Hyundia is a matter of a trend that fills a need with the young buyers market. Lets face it anything RWD or AWD from Japan and sporty was not affordable to many under 30 years old.

Edited May 8, 2009 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

This is not a matter of catagories but a matter of trends based on needs and wants of the public. The Hyundia is a matter of a trend that fills a need with the young buyers market. Lets face it anything RWD or AWD from Japan and sporty was not affordable to many under 30 years old.

Yes, it's what the RWD Celica and 240SX were years ago. It's an entry in a category Toyota and Nissan abandoned, as did Honda for the FWD sport compact category (i.e. no Prelude, no Integra, no RSX these days).

[balthazar]

>>"The fact is it is still smaller and lighter. These are important to the import crowd."<<

So the smallest & lightest car sells the most to the waning 'import tuner' crowd then, right ?? I mean, if 290 lbs is going to even come close to making or breaking a sale, this stuff is CRUCIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So this segment leader would be the civic, right ? What chance does the hyundai have here- it's far too thirsty (big V-6) and too heavy (3500 lbs). For the import tuner folk left in the market, this car is going the WRONG WAY @ the wrong time, no? This crowd has long exhibited their preference for 4-cyl compacts/hatches, they want more tech, more performance, more individual styling... yet want to maintain economy due to tight budgeting (esp now). A bigger, heavier thirstier newcomer (with almost no specific aftermarket support) is going to be the 'new trend everyone is watching' ???

Which is it?

[balthazar]

>>"A Cobalt is 94% the size of the Malibu and 88% of it's weight."<<

Point ?

[Cory Wolfe]

>>"A Cobalt is 94% the size of the Malibu and 88% of it's weight."<<

Point ?

>>"Genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight."<<

Are you saying you had no point in stating that?

[Robert Hall]

>>"Genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight."<<

Are you saying you had no point in stating that?

Unfortunately, Balthy is another guy that knows everything, is always right, walks on water, and has to dominate every conversation. Very much like Reg... except Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that. I'm sick of both of these guys, personally...thinking about adding them to my block list.

[balthazar]

balthazar: >>"Genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight."<<

blackviper8891: Are you saying you had no point in stating that?

The discussion, in case you didn't bother to read it, was that the hyundai is 'the one to watch' because it's 290 lbs lighter than the camaro, and it's the 'new direction'........ for those who have already demonstrated they prefer cars weighing 600-1000 lbs lighter than the hyundai. There was an attempt to drive a wedge between the Camaro & the genesis based primarily on weight difference (299 lbs) & size (8"). Like I said earlier, it's ridiculous. Apparently, the Camaro is deficient tho it's razor-close to the hyundai, and the hyundai is "affordable" at $32K. You should recognize exactly what this is:

Assumptive.

Subjective.

Let me add : nitpicking to the nth degree.

My point; explained.

You brought the Cobalt & Malibu into a thread on the Camaro/genesis, you can explain your point.

-- -- -- -- --

moltar : >>"Unfortunately, Balthy is another guy that knows everything, is always right, walks on water, and has to dominate every conversation. Very much like Reg... except Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that. I'm sick of both of these guys, personally...thinking about adding them to my block list."<<

You've got to be kidding me.

You've got 5900 of my posts you can comb thru, find ONE that stated anything close to 'I'm right and you're wrong'.

>>"Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that."<<

To borrow from vipes' repetuare' : Quote me, bitch.

We just had a direct conversation about non-underhood batteries; where did I tell you you were wrong? Where did I state 'no cars have trunk-mounted batteries'? Where did I challenge anything factual (or otherwise) in what you told me?

God, grow up.

And "dominate every conversation" ?? We joined the same month/year and you have 4000 more posts than I, most of them detailing the 'tweets' of various co-workers, friends, relatives & acquaintances, none of whom any of us asked about, have met or care about. Total anecdotal overload.... but who's keeping track ? :wink:

I have zero members on my block list. Never have blocked anyone.

I am tolerant of just about everything short of intentional idiocy {cough-smk-cough}.

(And no; I'm not calling either of you two an idiot for your opinions.)

Don't see why a discussion of 2 different viewpoints has to degenerate into intolerance and wild cast dispersions, but it's prolly inevitable at some point on an anonymous MB.

[Cory Wolfe]

balthazar: >>"Genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight."<<

blackviper8891: Are you saying you had no point in stating that?

The discussion, in case you didn't bother to read it, was that the hyundai is 'the one to watch' because it's 290 lbs lighter than the camaro, and it's the 'new direction'........ for those who have already demonstrated they prefer cars weighing 600-1000 lbs lighter than the hyundai. There was an attempt to drive a wedge between the Camaro & the genesis based primarily on weight difference (299 lbs) & size (8"). Like I said earlier, it's ridiculous. Apparently, the Camaro is deficient tho it's razor-close to the hyundai, and the hyundai is "affordable" at $32K. You should recognize exactly what this is:

Let me add : nitpicking to the nth degree.

My point; explained.

You brought the Cobalt & Malibu into a thread on the Camaro/genesis, you can explain your point.

Touche'.

I can't speak for others. I will add, however, that the Genesis 3.8 starts at $25k, the 2.0T at $22k. The 'loaded up' price is not the one to quote.

[balthazar]

You're right: base price should not be overlooked.

$25K is not bad, but $32K is not what I believe most would call "affordable", not in this market.

Hyundai could make deeper inroads by pricing it more like $20K / $25K- that's more where people expect hyundai to be at.

Edited May 9, 2009 by balthazar

[A Horse With No Name]

>>"The fact is it is still smaller and lighter. These are important to the import crowd."<<

So the smallest & lightest car sells the most to the waning 'import tuner' crowd then, right ?? I mean, if 290 lbs is going to even come close to making or breaking a sale, this stuff is CRUCIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So this segment leader would be the civic, right ? What chance does the hyundai have here- it's far too thirsty (big V-6) and too heavy (3500 lbs). For the import tuner folk left in the market, this car is going the WRONG WAY @ the wrong time, no? This crowd has long exhibited their preference for 4-cyl compacts/hatches, they want more tech, more performance, more individual styling... yet want to maintain economy due to tight budgeting (esp now). A bigger, heavier thirstier newcomer (with almost no specific aftermarket support) is going to be the 'new trend everyone is watching' ???

Which is it?

I agree with the direction I think your going. For the import crowd, it is kinda really going the wrong direction.

For not alot more scratch you can get a WRX, which is a real performance car. Why you would buy a Genesis when you could have a WRX is beyond me.

The WRX is just so much more car, as is the Camaro.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

You're right: base price should not be overlooked.

$25K is not bad, but $32K is not what I believe most would call "affordable", not in this market.

Hyundai could make deeper inroads by pricing it more like $20K / $25K- that's more where people expect hyundai to be at.

Thinking like a car buyer for a second...

Let's not forget aboput resale. Hyundai has terrible resale, while the Camaro (or the WRX I just mentioned) has a fan base and should have really decent resale.

Chris

[Cory Wolfe]

Thinking like a car buyer for a second...

Let's not forget aboput resale. Hyundai has terrible resale, while the Camaro (or the WRX I just mentioned) has a fan base and should have really decent resale.

Chris

That's not necessarily guaranteed. Anything from GM lately has not had decent resale value at all, regardless of how good the vehicle was, or what sort of fan base it had.

[regfootball]

Unfortunately, Balthy is another guy that knows everything, is always right, walks on water, and has to dominate every conversation. Very much like Reg... except Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that. I'm sick of both of these guys, personally...thinking about adding them to my block list.

be my guest then

[regfootball]

I agree with the direction I think your going. For the import crowd, it is kinda really going the wrong direction.

For not alot more scratch you can get a WRX, which is a real performance car. Why you would buy a Genesis when you could have a WRX is beyond me.

The WRX is just so much more car, as is the Camaro.

Chris

x2

[hyperv6]

I think what most here are missing is the Genesis is a good car for a first try, It is in the room and going to be repecable and well accepted in the market.

The key here is like so many other imoports GM and the others can not disreguard this car as Hyundia has proven like many before to learn quickly and adapt.

It is not so much what I fear now about the Genesis but what it could and I am sure will become.

Just as in the past we should learn not to underestimate. Honda and Toyota both were not taken seriously years ago and we know how that worked out.

I fully accept that the Camaro is the better car but I worry will the market accept the Genesis more as time improves it. Working in the performance aftermarket I see less and less you kids fixing up Camaro's and Mustang. What used to be what everyone had to own or wanted to own is not in demand as it used to be. The people I see buying these parts for the Pony cars are getting older and older.

Edited May 9, 2009 by hyperv6

[regfootball]

honda still has never taken GM head on in the RWD pony car market. Its fine that they did not, they concentrated on the small light fwd cars. But I don't think Honda is capable of a rwd tire shredder coupe. For one, Honda is not capable of building an engine with torque that would be required. Honda is probably smart that they haven't because they prefer to stick with what they like which has their own fan base. I think Hyundai felt it would be more of a one up to go after Honda with RWD instead of something they may not be able to equal them at.

[Satty]

I dont think anyone who has ever driven an NSX would say its torqueless. You would, but thats just because of your own ignorance.

[hyperv6]

honda still has never taken GM head on in the RWD pony car market. Its fine that they did not, they concentrated on the small light fwd cars. But I don't think Honda is capable of a rwd tire shredder coupe. For one, Honda is not capable of building an engine with torque that would be required. Honda is probably smart that they haven't because they prefer to stick with what they like which has their own fan base. I think Hyundai felt it would be more of a one up to go after Honda with RWD instead of something they may not be able to equal them at.

Yep and Toyota will never get into NASCAR with a push rod V8 and win........ Oh! never mind.

Never underestimate the imports they are no longer a third world industry.

[regfootball]

I dont think anyone who has ever driven an NSX would say its torqueless. You would, but thats just because of your own ignorance.

and 10 years ago it cost 3 times more than a v8 camaro costs today.

conversely, plenty of its competition at that price absolutely spanked the snot out of it too.

Edited May 9, 2009 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Yep and Toyota will never get into NASCAR with a push rod V8 and win........ Oh! never mind.

Never underestimate the imports they are no longer a third world industry.

wow, anyone still follows nascar? lmao

[balthazar]

Well, I did something today I simply do not normally have time to fritter away doing.

Was driving past 'my' Chevy dealer, which is the tiniest new car dealer I've seen. Lot averages between 12-20-some new vehicles, today it was 11.

But one of them was a Victory Red '09 Camaro RS, V-6/auto. I had to pull over & check it out.

Phenomonal, outrageous, dynamic, unique & amazing. The lines- it's a concept car in production. The Coke-bottle flanks, the tapered backlight, the sucked-tight overhangs... Car is as fresh as a bare-handed slap to the face, looks great from every angle. Wheels are huge. It straight-up sucks you right in. Interior (didn't get inside) is also unique & looks very sporty. Sticker was $28K. I'm not a 'Camaro person', but I was extremely impressed.

BTW- this car did NOT have any brake caliper lead weights.

Then I took a slight detour and swung into the hyundai megamall. This is one of the largest dealers in the east, I believe, always shouting outrageous deals in their radios spots. There was about 15 dusty genesis sedans there (and what's the dilly-o: with a 'hyundai genesis sedan' and a 'hyundai genesis coupe', why is the sedan starting $14K higher than the coupe ??? That's a huge sticker diff within 1 model name, no?).... plus 3 genesis coupes.

The hyundai does look slightly smaller (even not being side-by-side), but this is mostly to the very low nose. Camaro isn't "large" by any means, but it has broader fascias & a higher hoodline. The hyundai is not bad looking - the droopy rear quarter window didn't bother me in person like it did in pics, and the nose also isn't quite as melted as it looks in straight-on pics. This could be argued to be a stand-out... FROM HYUNDAI; I can see it being appealing to a small portion of the import consumer pool, but it certainly does not stand out in a mixed crowd, despite the window sticker assurance of "dynamic styling". In fact, the rounded rear reminded me of the late '90s Merc Cougar for some reason...

2.0L stripper was $24K, 2.0L T was $27K, 3.8L T was just under $32K. Tho there were some other options involved, that's multi-thousands for just the 3.8 engine.

This car is in no way going to sway those away from the Camaro.

-- -- -- -- --

To get back to my earlier point : the hyundai is going the wrong way in this market for it's intended buyers, or at least it's 5 years too late. It's heavy for it's size and it's treading in the domestic 'muscle coupe' segment, and that's just not where the import loyalists have any desire to go. No way the Camaro buyer is switching camps. Guess we'll see how it pans out over time, but I'm going to be attentive to the 'insane deals' they attempt to push this car with.

Edited May 10, 2009 by balthazar

[A Horse With No Name]

The product may be wrong, on that I would agree with you. However, I do think that Hyundai does really well in promoting their products, so I am interested to see whee this ends up.

Chris

[Satty]

I've driven a Genesis Coupe, and there is nothing appreciably wrong with it. There was a fair amount of road noise on the highway, but I was driving without the radio on. The tiny trunk is the only other flaw the car has. Its reasonably priced and has a practically never-ending warranty. It cant be thrown around like the MINI, but since its like 14 feet longer, thats to be expected. The Genesis Coupe will do just fine, and I'm sure the people buying them wont regret it.

[A Horse With No Name]

...it may do just fine...but IMHO it is still second fiddle to the Camaro.

One interesting thing...I wonder if some groups of people will be put OFF by the retro styling of the Camaro. Asian people who identify with asian products for one...younger people who don't remember the first gen Camaro's for another?

Just thinking out loud...

Chris

[Satty]

There was, for a few years in the mid-90's, a '69 Camaro in my family. I didn't think it was amazingly gorgeous then, I dont find the 2009 ripoff to be amazingly gorgeous either.

[balthazar]

>>"I wonder if some groups of people will be put OFF by the retro styling of the Camaro. "<<

I strongly doubt it. The only thing retro-esque about it as it sits in front of you, is the grille opening/ frenched grille. Everything else is completely modern, it just calls to mind the '69 for those that know it well. But for the vast majority of consumers- '69 Camaros are not something seen often out on the road, and the proportional differences are not going to call the '10 to mind, IMO.