GMNA to Undergo Major Capacity Reduction

[Guest gmrebirth]

in price, the 500 is entirely competitive with the camry, except for incentivized Camrys, which are the norm around here I guess. In versatility, dynamics and roominess the 500 easily trounces the Camry. Not so sure about engine performance [haven't driven them back to back], and interior quality definitely still goes to the Camry.

[post="46160"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But I'm not comparing by price. I'm being fair and comparing within classes.

You don't all of a sudden go and compare a Corvette and a Lexus simply based on "price".

Besides, price wise, they are similar *only* if you compare V6 to V6 versions ... this being a skewed comparison in the first place, I can compare I4 Camrys, which are quite cheaper than a base 500.

I have yet to see ONE comparison test pitting the Camry against the 500 ... it just isn't done.

A 500 at 26k is similarly optioned to a base Avalon, with the 500 having a bit more interior room, but the Avalon trouncing it in both performance and fuel economy.

[Hudson]

The Oshawa #2 and Spring Hill #1 are smoke and mirrors.  Both Oshawa and Spring Hill will be renovated and updated with C-Flex production technology and become flexible one manufacturing operations.  Both plants have products slated for them, so there futures are secure.  This a a day that has had to happen for years, it's tough, but this will secure GM's future as they realign capacity to natural demand.  This isn't the end folks, but a bold new beginning for GM.  Rest assured GM isn't going bankrupt anytime soon and will make inroads in the near future.

I agree with Oshawa...not so much with Spring Hill. Spring Hill has products coming, but not enough to fill BOTH plants (Spring Hill #1 and Spring Hill #2). If Oshawa remains, then I think Spring Hill #2 should close as well as Spring Hill #1.

[cmattson]

Profit is defined as the revenues less expenses. Investing money into a new plant or into engineering endeavours is an expense like any other -- and has already been accounted for in that profdit equation. So Toyota's mammoth profit is pure money -- and there is no defending where that money sits.

[Hudson]

But I'm not comparing by price. I'm being fair and comparing within classes.

First, why does each Ford (or GM) product have to match up directly to a Toyota product?

Second, Americans have usually compared their products to smaller (and similarly priced) Japanese products because of the "value" offered in the domestics. That would put the Dodge Intrepid/Charger, Chevrolet Impala, and Ford Taurus/Five Hundred against the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord. The Dodge Stratus, Chevrolet Malibu, and the Ford Fusion would tackle the entry-level versions of the Accord and Camry.

These are fair comparisons.

[Hudson]

Profit is defined as the revenues less expenses.  Investing money into a new plant or into engineering endeavours is an expense like any other -- and has already been accounted for in that profdit equation.  So Toyota's mammoth profit is pure money -- and there is no defending where that money sits.

As an investor, what prevents you from buying Toyota stock and keeping that money in the US?

[cmattson]

I wonder if it's a coincidence that the many of the GM plants being closed are in Republican dominated states (Tennessee, Georgia, Oklahoma).

I think it's just a coincedence. I don't think GM has enough luxury right now to make decisions based on political philosophies. Not to be overly stereotypical, but f you take a look at a red state/blue state map, you'll see that a bunch of the Republican-leaning states were states that had a lower average income; places like Mississippi, Oklahoma, etc. Because of their lower average income, these are the prime locations for manufacturers to base plants in the first place.

DISCLAIMER:
Now, before you get too carried away, I'm just making an observation between average-income and which states voted where. It may be a coincidence -- it may not. You draw your own conclusions on the validity and where's and why's, etc. - I'm just stating an observation that leads me to believe why GM's plant closings are not politically-motivated. I'm not looking to start some sort of flame war.

[ehaase]

As much as that might seem like a good answer (and I'm not saying it's not a contributing factor), Ford's decision on Atlanta and GM's decision on Oklahoma City and Doraville fall into other categories.

[post="46165"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I am sure that politics is not even in the top ten reasons for these decision, but I am sure that Senate Majority Frist is not very happy about losing a plant in his state.

[ehaase]

I'm not looking to start some sort of flame war.

[post="46174"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't play flame war games. I know that politics would not be in the top ten reasons for closing these plants.

[Guest gmrebirth]

First, why does each Ford (or GM) product have to match up directly to a Toyota product?

Second, Americans have usually compared their products to smaller (and similarly priced) Japanese products because of the "value" offered in the domestics. That would put the Dodge Intrepid/Charger, Chevrolet Impala, and Ford Taurus/Five Hundred against the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord. The Dodge Stratus, Chevrolet Malibu, and the Ford Fusion would tackle the entry-level versions of the Accord and Camry.

These are fair comparisons.

Fair enough. Then I shall compare an Avalon to an Impala LTZ, and I will compare an Avalon Limited to a Lucerne CXS (which ends up being about 3K cheaper than the Lucerne, yet loaded with loads of features and options not even available on the Lucerne). I will compare a Lexus IS350 to a Lucerne CXS, because they share similar prices. It also seems fair to compare a Monte Carlo LTZ with an Avalon.

I will also start comparing a Focus ZXT S4 to a base model Camry since they fall within the same price range.

Based purely on price, and using your logic, I would call these all totally fair comparisons, even though clearly some of them are not. Edited November 21, 2005 by gmrebirth

[ehaase]

The Oshawa #2 and Spring Hill #1 are smoke and mirrors.  Both Oshawa and Spring Hill will be renovated and updated with C-Flex production technology and become flexible one manufacturing operations.  Both plants have products slated for them, so there futures are secure.  This a a day that has had to happen for years, it's tough, but this will secure GM's future as they realign capacity to natural demand.  This isn't the end folks, but a bold new beginning for GM.  Rest assured GM isn't going bankrupt anytime soon and will make inroads in the near future.

[post="46136"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Then it's sounds like this is much ado about nothing. Just an effort to try to make the Wall Street Journal and the talking heads on CNBC happy. All that's really closing is the Lansing Craft Center, Oklahoma City, and the minivan plant near Atlanta.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Post Deleted. Edited November 21, 2005 by gmrebirth

[I hope GMRULES again]

The Oshawa #2 and Spring Hill #1 are smoke and mirrors.  Both Oshawa and Spring Hill will be renovated and updated with C-Flex production technology and become flexible one manufacturing operations.  Both plants have products slated for them, so there futures are secure.  This a a day that has had to happen for years, it's tough, but this will secure GM's future as they realign capacity to natural demand.  This isn't the end folks, but a bold new beginning for GM.  Rest assured GM isn't going bankrupt anytime soon and will make inroads in the near future.

[post="46136"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If what your saying is true do the workers at these plants know this is only smoke and mirrors to satisfy wall street?

[turbo200]

Fair enough. Then I shall compare an Avalon to an Impala LTZ, and I will compare an Avalon Limited to a Lucerne CXS (which ends up being about 3K cheaper than the Lucerne, yet loaded with loads of features and options not even available on the Lucerne). I will compare a Lexus IS350 to a Lucerne CXS, because they share similar prices. It also seems fair to compare a Monte Carlo LTZ with an Avalon.

I will also start comparing a Focus ZXT S4 to a base model Camry since they fall within the same price range.

Based purely on price, and using your logic, I would call these all totally fair comparisons, even though clearly some of them are not.

[post="46178"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yes, it's fair. Of course, for comparison purposes in print no one would ever go into the logistical nightmares of comparing such an assortment of models, but in real life people look at the options and weigh what the best car is for them based on what's important. Price, size, value, and style and important qualifications for this.

[turbo200]

So it seems a lot of this is more exaggerated than it actually sounds. Though the sounds of 30k people losing thier job is not something to take lightly. I am glad to hear this won't be affecting product plans, and that a new efficient and poweful GM is still coming from this. One thing of note, they haven't given the Impala a chance yet, yet they are already planning a downsizing of its market? This speaks of the plans for the future more than anything, I think. I hope this means they figure most people will go into the new Malibu for 2008 (?) and the new RWD sedan. Most people, from these boards, say they would prefer RWD, and the 300 has proven the mass market will follow suit.

[Chevysnumberone]

[quote name='Polish_Kris' date='Nov 21 2005, 11:11 AM']
The UAW has allot to do with this. GM had to cut costs to accompony the UAW's needs. Therefore quality did go down, because they had to buy cheaper parts, therefore, reliability goes down, and resale value, its a whole ripple effect. That's why people went for the Japs. And that is what brought down the American Auto Industry. If GM did not have to worry about the UAW, they would spend billions more into PRODUCT instead of politics.

[post="46054"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

` the fault is ours the public for believing everythang nagative Magazine put out about Gm poducts, and people buying toyotas,Hondas, and other foreign autos and trucks I am 58year old union man and i have been around awhile ,to see what has happen To GM and Ford. Just stop and think how bed this is going to be 30,000 Fathers and mothers and grown kid won"t be able to buy future GM car and Trucks now that is going to hurt! Edited November 21, 2005 by Chevysnumberone

[Petra]

The Oshawa #2 and Spring Hill #1 are smoke and mirrors.  Both Oshawa and Spring Hill will be renovated and updated with C-Flex production technology and become flexible one manufacturing operations.  Both plants have products slated for them, so there futures are secure.  This a a day that has had to happen for years, it's tough, but this will secure GM's future as they realign capacity to natural demand.  This isn't the end folks, but a bold new beginning for GM.  Rest assured GM isn't going bankrupt anytime soon and will make inroads in the near future.

[post="46136"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I knew something was fishy when they said Spring Hill and Oshawa were closing. It just didn't add up. Then I figured, maybe it's something like a production hiatus, not a total lockdown and closure of these plants. Thanks for confirming my suspicions, AH-HA... you are truly one of the most valuable members of this forum.

I also agree that this sort of thing had to happen sooner or later. In fact, some of these plants should've been closed years ago. They all produce [mostly] unwanted products that glut up GM's inventory and consume GM's ever-diminishing funds. They're like cancer cells. And, to get rid of cancer, you usually have to undergo surgery and months and months of poisonous chemotherapy. The near future will not be kind to GM, but they are (finally) moving in the right direction. In fact, I applaud Wagoner for having the guts to do this. I think that, in the long term, he made the right call.

[Ghost Dog]

I don't understand why GM would announce Oshawa losing 3 shifts, and be just kidding. The Canadians just gave gm Hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies. To announce something as politically inflammatory as this is gonna cause problems. Edited November 21, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[drew770]

Finally GM has decided to close plants and lay off some workers. Yes, this is a bad situation but I would rather GM close plants or cease production and lay off folks instead of filing for bankruptcy and then closing more plants and laying off more workers. WallStreet has been saying for years that GM had too much capacity and now Wagoner finally has set a plan in action. Like it or not GM has to get smaller, more nimble, and smarter in order to return to profitablity and increase market share. Also, to some extent I think GM has decided to revise it's outlook and finally realize that a market share of 20% is more in line in the future than the 25% to 30% GM wants for itself. There are too many competitors out there for GM to dominate the market like it use to. Also, I think we should just calm down (very hard for me because I am a shareholder) and wait to see what the next few years will bring for GM. We have some interesting and good feedback coming from critics concerning the next generation Malibu, Aura, Sky, Outlook, CTS and a new concept of the Camaro. And lets not forget the up coming GMT900 even though they will not hit the sales highs of past years they are still fantastic vehicles that will just confirm to people that Yes GM can produce something good.

[Polish_Kris]

The real CORE problem is image, which is of course controlled by the media. .

[post="46147"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I truly doubt that your conspiracy theory is correct. If the media controlled the car market, they would be very pro american! Just like they are with this dumb war in Iraq, and product placements in movies.... etc... So, don't the gun and start accusing the media automatically. I think it's hard for you to swallow the fact that GM is in trouble now because of its poor management, and forcing the public their "gotta have" cars, shoving them down their throats. So you start playing the blame game. You're doing the same thing the KKK does, by saying its the black people's fault why America is the way it is. And the same thing Hitler did in Nazi Germany, but saying "It's the fault of the Jews why Germany is in ruins" You're pointing fingers at the media and the imports. "It's their fault". No, I said it once and I'll say it again, it's GM's own fault why this is happening! It's easy to blame others, instead of solving the problem. GM needs to get rid of those 70 year old white guys who run it and take more control over the UAW unions who, and start the company on a fresh note.

[Polish_Kris]

[quote name='Chevysnumberone' date='Nov 21 2005, 03:56 PM']
[quote name='Polish_Kris' date='Nov 21 2005, 11:11 AM']
The UAW has allot to do with this. GM had to cut costs to accompony the UAW's needs. Therefore quality did go down, because they had to buy cheaper parts, therefore, reliability goes down, and resale value, its a whole ripple effect. That's why people went for the Japs. And that is what brought down the American Auto Industry. If GM did not have to worry about the UAW, they would spend billions more into PRODUCT instead of politics.

[post="46054"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

` the fault is ours the public for believing everythang nagative Magazine put out about Gm poducts, and people buying toyotas,Hondas, and other foreign autos and trucks I am 58year old union man and i have been around awhile ,to see what has happen To GM and Ford. Just stop and think how bed this is going to be 30,000 Fathers and mothers and grown kid won"t be able to buy future GM car and Trucks now that is going to hurt!

[post="46222"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[/quote]


Oh I know that, same crap is happening back in my native Poland, where Polish businesses are selling themselves off to foreign investors. People are getting layed off. America is turning into a mess too. It's pretty funny, from what I heard from people who study economics, that in twenty years Canada's economy will be better than the U.S's.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You're driving a 500 now?  Congratulations.

[post="46157"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No not quite.... I'd prefer a Fusion :)

[Shantanu]

I doubt many workers are actually being laid off. GM probably hired most of these people back in the 1960's and 1970s, so they are about to retire. Other folks will be given transfers to other GM plants. And the few that are left will collect 90% of their income.

[Flybrian]

I truly doubt that your conspiracy theory is correct.  If the media controlled the car market, they would be very pro american!  Just like they are with this dumb war in Iraq, and product placements in movies.... etc... So, don't the gun and start accusing the media automatically.  I think it's hard for you to swallow the fact that GM is in trouble now because of its poor management, and forcing the public their "gotta have" cars, shoving them down their throats.  So you start playing the blame game.  You're doing the same thing the KKK does, by saying its the black people's fault why America is the way it is.  And the same thing Hitler did in Nazi Germany, but saying "It's the fault of the Jews why Germany is in ruins"  You're pointing fingers at the media and the imports.  "It's their fault".  No, I said it once and I'll say it again, it's GM's own fault why this is happening!  It's easy to blame others, instead of solving the problem.  GM needs to get rid of those 70 year old white guys who run it and take more control over the UAW unions who, and start the company on a fresh note.

[post="46246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Drawing parallels between the Media plotting against GM and lynchings and the holocaust?

At one time I thought you were better than that. Guess you win the bet.

You have opinions, fine, but learn some tact.

[turbo200]

Polish_Kris, I am a strong dissenter of that whole media is responsible for the darkness crap, if GM were up to the task of producing great cars, the media would have to report on it. It's thier job to be honest otherwise their credibility would be shot. However, the REAL core problem is most definitely IMAGE. Image that is perpetuated in the media when fifty million reports are released in one week about GM's bankruptcy possiblities, and no one really reports straight from the horse's mouth, which if you asked Bob Lutz, he would say bankruptcy is not an issue, and point to upcoming products. The media reports using scare tactics. That is true of every media resource. They prey on fear and doubt. Cause that's what sells. Anytime a period of drama is occurring they report the hell out of it. It's what happens in Hollywood, it's what happens to the NBA when a basketball player hits someone, it's what happens when the latest natural disaster hits. Sensationalistic news sells, and when it comes to GM, the product reviews may be fair, but there is a lot more sensationalism going on to.

[ehaase]

GM's stock was down again today, so the announcement did not impress the Wall Street Crowd. Maria Bartiromo was almost hysterical wanting to know when GM will turn around in her interviews regarding the plant closing.

[Hudson]

I don't understand  why GM would announce Oshawa losing 3  shifts, and be just  kidding. The Canadians just gave gm Hundreds of millions of dollars  in subsidies. To announce something  as politically inflammatory as this is gonna  cause  problems.

Not "kidding"...bluffing. If you close nothing but UAW plants, it looks like you're "moving away from the US in favor of foreign (Canadian, Mexican and overseas) plants. If you "close" a token CAW plant (one of three), suddenly, everyone's carrying some of the burden. In this case, the UAW helps (in theory) GM regain its footing in the 2007 contract negotiations. After contracts are signed in the fall of 2007, GM's outlook gets better and Oshawa #2 suddenly gets some new products for late 2008.

Note how the date of Oshawa #2's closure is a year AFTER the UAW contract expires. And, as is pointed out, Oshawa #2 makes some high quality products.

[Polish_Kris]

Drawing parallels between the Media plotting against GM and lynchings and the holocaust?

At one time I thought you were better than that. Guess you win the bet.

You have opinions, fine, but learn some tact.

[post="46254"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I know that was a harsh comparisson, I'm just relating to what FOG is saying, he's doing finger pointing instead of looking at the big picture.

[Northstar]

Don't count out Oklahoma City yet either.

[post="46258"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Just a thought, but maybe if the Lambdas take off and they need more production capacity then OK City gets Lambdas? It would make sense because it's scheduled to close at about the same time the Lambdas should be on the market.

I was suspicious of Oshawa closing giving its good track record, so I'm happy to see that it's just smoke and mirrors.

[BrewSwillis]

America is turning into a mess too.  It's pretty funny, from what I heard from people who study economics, that in twenty years Canada's economy will be better than the U.S's.

[post="46249"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The American economy in ruins.......now that's some funny stuff! :rolleyes:

[Polish_Kris]

The American economy in ruins.......now that's some funny stuff! :rolleyes:

[post="46270"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm not saying its funny, I'm saying its funny that Canada's economy is going up meanwhile the great giant United States will be beat by Canada economically, by funny, I mean "wow"

[Northstar]

The one thing no one has talked about is Spring Hill #1 ceasing Ion production at the end of 2006.  What happens to the Ion then?   :AH-HA_wink:

[post="46276"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Joins the Cobalt at Lordstown?

(The new ION, not the current one)

[ehaase]

The one thing no one has talked about is Spring Hill #1 ceasing Ion production at the end of 2006.  What happens to the Ion then? :AH-HA_wink:

[post="46276"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I would assume it's going to the Cobalt plant or will be on hiatus, making the Aura and Sky the only cars for the 2007 model year. I did not think that the new small car would be ready by 2007. I did think about it, but I am trying to stop speculating so much.

[ehaase]

What could they be? :AH-HA_wink:

[post="46286"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Approximately four people here know. The rest of us will have to wait two or three years.

[wildcat]

Is that when the Buick LaCrosse Super reveals itself?

[razoredge]

So Im hopeing most of this will be retirements, with some early retirement buy outs ? No way around the fact that they must consolidate. Its crazy to run plants too far below effecient production. Well, Ill try to be optimistic about this and figure perhaps after retools and if sales improve, more jobs could become available, and GM can prosper and tow the line on their pension funds, no stock holder losses, no offshoreing of jobs that can be done here and save all the shipping fuel and phone bills, ect . ect. ect. ect ya know if they went from 5 lug wheels to 4 lug wheels they could save 5 million, the retool would cost 8 mill, +bonuses around 6 mill oh boy

[IbuyGM]

The new products at Osh #2 have to be the long awaited Camaro, another RWD for Pontiac, and possibly, from what I hear, a Nova concept. That plant should be retooled for the RWD coming out model year 08-09

[razoredge]

Yes the media is responsible for those plants closing. :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:
Least intelligent thing Ive read in this thread so far, but Im only on page 2 so far...

[post="46308"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, the least intelligent thing as of now, is your interpretation of what was writtin.


:metal:

[Drew Dowdell]

You can't place the sole blame on the UAW. GM needs to build world class vehicles that consumers actually want to buy(without artificial demand).

c|d

[post="46051"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Can't afford to do that when you have to pay every GM worker that still lives + pay for their healthcare.

[regfootball]

Your 500 doesn't compete with the Camry.

And you're comparing your NEW 500 to an OLD (dated, end of it's generation) Camry.

[post="46135"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

right. my 500 was better priced, has more room, and is more comfortable and rides and handles better.

you're right. it doesn't compare.

[regfootball]

Really? The 500 competes with the Camry?

I wonder what the Fusion competes with ... the Avalon  :rolleyes:?

The 500 is FULL size ... thus it competes with the Avalon.

The Camry is midsize, and clearly it is the Fusion that competes with it.

Look around ... all comparison tests pit the Camry against the Fusion, and the 500 against the Avalon.

...

But wait just a minute, when other people start comparing the 500 to the Avalon, 500 fans immediately are on the defensive saying "oh just wait till next year, when the 500 gets a new engine, and AWD, and etc.".

So if 500 fans do it, it is not reasonable for me to say the same? Especially considering the 500 vs. Camry is a flawed comparison to begin with?

[post="46155"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I guess if you want to blow 5 grand more, or more, you could get an avalon.

yes, the 500 needs improvements, but the avalon is not that much better a car. but my point is most folks won't even stop to consider the 500 OR the FUsion, OR the impala, because its not a HIP import. Edited November 21, 2005 by regfootball

[regfootball]

You're driving a 500 now?  Congratulations.

[post="46157"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

thanks, an Impala SS or GXP GP would have been nice, but a bit out of my price range. Plus, the big back seat and command seating on the 500 were a huge draw for me. Edited November 21, 2005 by regfootball

[razoredge]

What was that sound? Did someone say something? Oh. Nevermind. It was just a small dog yapping. Normally I might be a little miffed at someone saying that, but when it comes from someone with your rep. I dont care.  :lol:  :lol:

And that's spelled "written" there big guy.

[post="46313"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:lol: :rolleyes: oh ow stop it ^_^

[regfootball]

in price, the 500 is entirely competitive with the camry, except for incentivized Camrys, which are the norm around here I guess. In versatility, dynamics and roominess the 500 easily trounces the Camry. Not so sure about engine performance [haven't driven them back to back], and interior quality definitely still goes to the Camry.

[post="46160"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the 500's interior is pretty nice, i would not call the camry superior.

the 500's engine is kinda growly at times, and could use more torque, but the camry is no powerhouse either.

[regfootball]

Odd...when more than half the vehicles sold in the US last year were built by GM, Ford or Chrysler....but 2/3 of potential buyers aren't even looking at domestics? Does that mean that more than half of the potential buyers who don't look at domestics just won't buy a car instead of looking at a domestic?

And how do you define yourself if you don't fall into "wealthy corporate types, 'movers and shakers', execs, 'professionals', urbanites, liberals, soccer moms...."?

[post="46162"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

i guess if you aren't in those groups, you're a big phuq-qing loser....if you believe what advertising tells you and all the cultural mavens in the world.

[regfootball]

But I'm not comparing by price. I'm being fair and comparing within classes.

You don't all of a sudden go and compare a Corvette and a Lexus simply based on "price".

Besides, price wise, they are similar *only* if you compare V6 to V6 versions ... this being a skewed comparison in the first place, I can compare I4 Camrys, which are quite cheaper than a base 500.

I have yet to see ONE comparison test pitting the Camry against the 500 ... it just isn't done.

A 500 at 26k is similarly optioned to a base Avalon, with the 500 having a bit more interior room, but the Avalon trouncing it in both performance and fuel economy.

[post="46166"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

base 500 SE's were 20 grand when i was shopping. try to find a camry 6 cylinder for that.

[regfootball]

No not quite.... I'd prefer a Fusion :)

[post="46250"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the fusion is a great drive, but i wanted the much additional space the 500 has. the fusion v6 was not significantly faster than the 500. but it was much smaller inside.

[Cadillacfan]

I wonder what will happen to the Trailblazer and the Envoy now that OKC is shutting down? Is GM going to start phasing these two out? It might be a good decision in the long run since popularity of Body on Frame SUVs (especially midsize) is fading away. Ford saw it and made a good move to reduce the production of the new Explorer. GM is doing the same.

[ehaase]

I wonder what will happen to the Trailblazer and the Envoy now that OKC is shutting down?  Is GM going to start phasing these two out? 

[post="46365"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Only the stretch versions are being dropped. They were almost as big as the Tahoe/Yukon, so they probably were redundant.

[thegriffon]

As an investor, what prevents you from buying Toyota stock and keeping that money in the US?

[post="46172"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Lack of easy access. Only a limited number of Toyota ADRs are readily available for sale in the US, and these are only a proxy for Toyota shares. Buy buying ADRs you invest in the earnings of Toyota, but you do not increase the proportion of American ownership, nor do you get to vote at a Toyota AGM (since the actual shares are held by the financial institution issuing the ADRs). You could ask your broker to invest directly in Japanese-market Toyota stock, but the process is more difficult, comparitively expensive and not so flexible. At current prices it's probably overvalued anyway.

Toyota may be the wealthiest and most admired automaker, but it is far from infallible. It makes many mistakes and it's own momentum can blind it to many (sound like any other company you know?).

Products Toyota got wrong: Yaris (both generations) and Echo (blame the Corolla), Avalon - first two generations, the 2nd RAV4, Tundra, Corolla Spacio (corrected with the new Verso), Estima/Previa, Avensis (so much better does not make it "right", but it was not alone there), IS300, and the next Corolla (Civic and Sentra will get it right, with better supporting acts than the Yaris). Toyota has a habit of selling the right product in Japan (ist, Brevis) but failing to see the applicability to overseas markets. Edited November 22, 2005 by thegriffon

[I hope GMRULES again]

This is something the CAW would've know about in advance.  If they weren't aware of this politicians would be in an uproar and revoke their investment dollars from GM, but this isn't the case.  This is only a temporary situtation for Oshawa.  The car plants are going to be retooled and become flexible operations on one production line on top of investment in the all important truck plant, which is moving to GMT900 and eventually GMT1000.  This is nothing shocking coming from GM for those in the industry, just wait come 2009-10.

[post="46269"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Then why did I just see Buzz Hargrove, CAW President, on the news looking like he just woke up from a deep sleep saying he was shocked by the Oshawa news?
Was he bluffing?
I won't be holding my breath for 2009-2010 for the new GM to emerge, I've be waiting for 20 years now so I'm pretty sure hell is going to freeze over before it happens.