Motor Trend Compares Camaro and Genesis 3.8

[Cory Wolfe]

ford chevy chrysler etc routinely build a car like this for 4-5 decades and hyundai builds one and all of a sudden the fact that they can finally compete should mean a gold medal? again, so they proved they could build one. one that does not even have styling to go with the performance.

this reminds me of like the insignia TV's at best buy. the sony's and panasonics of the world basically define the direction of the market. then, at some point somebody rebadges a 2nd tier brand offering with a store brand badge and people get wet because they think its the real thing.

basically people, the supra from 10-15 years ago still eclipsed the performance of this hyundai, and the rx-8 if it had a piston engine in it would kick the snot out of this thing. No one in their right mind would take the hyundai over the rx-8 or the supra.

a used lexus original coupe with the inline 6 is prob a nicer car than this hyundai.

so lets not crown the baby king yet, he's just barely learned to piss in a toilet without a diaper.

hyundais top offering musclecar manages to be able to play with a base camaro.. well, everyone, give up your entire value system because Britney is sober again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

take away hyundais dirt cheap labor and i would be shocked if they can produce this wonderfully mediocre car.

salute the company for making this achievement, but getting to the dance doesn't make you the prom king just for being there.

Okay Reg. Thanks for your valuable insight.

[Satty]

ford chevy chrysler etc routinely build a car like this for 4-5 decades and hyundai builds one and all of a sudden the fact that they can finally compete should mean a gold medal? again, so they proved they could build one. one that does not even have styling to go with the performance.

this reminds me of like the insignia TV's at best buy. the sony's and panasonics of the world basically define the direction of the market. then, at some point somebody rebadges a 2nd tier brand offering with a store brand badge and people get wet because they think its the real thing.

basically people, the supra from 10-15 years ago still eclipsed the performance of this hyundai, and the rx-8 if it had a piston engine in it would kick the snot out of this thing. No one in their right mind would take the hyundai over the rx-8 or the supra.

a used lexus original coupe with the inline 6 is prob a nicer car than this hyundai.

so lets not crown the baby king yet, he's just barely learned to piss in a toilet without a diaper.

hyundais top offering musclecar manages to be able to play with a base camaro.. well, everyone, give up your entire value system because Britney is sober again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

take away hyundais dirt cheap labor and i would be shocked if they can produce this wonderfully mediocre car.

salute the company for making this achievement, but getting to the dance doesn't make you the prom king just for being there.

People avoid sitting next to you on public transportation, dont they?

[camarodee]

Comm'on Guys... I'm going to say its not a "fair" comparison. For only one reason. The Camaro structure was designed to handle over 500 HP. I'm guessing the Genesis wasn't.

Having a structure capable of over 500 HP greatly changes the amount of reinforcement and the gage of many of the body sub-components. If the Camaro was designed to be a V6 car capable of 300 HP I'm guessing it would weight significantly less.

(And please don't say, that GM should have made two-different bodies to reduce the weight of the V-6. This would cost a litteral fortune.)

I like the Mustang/Challenger/Any other V6 equipped car that is capable of over 450Hp. Comparo personally...

[Robert Hall]

hyundais top offering musclecar manages to be able to play with a base camaro.. well, everyone, give up your entire value system because Britney is sober again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You missed the point completely, as usual.

I don't think Hyundai was building a 'musclecar'...it's an affordable compact sports coupe. Different market niche. Toyota and Nissan used to build cars like this before they abandoned the market. Think RWD Celica, 240SX (Silvia)..there were also some good ones that were FWD (Honda Prelude, Acura Integra, Acura RSX, later Celicas). This is a car for that market, that doesn't seem to exist anymore in NA.

The only reason it's getting compared to the Camaro (or other V6 ponycars) is the price point, engine, and that it's a 2dr coupe. The Camaro/Mustang/Challenger are in a different category all together but this is where they overlap.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Cubical

[Camino LS6]

What this really points out to me is the lack of a sub-Camaro sized RWD V6 offering from GM.

Alpha much?

GM is late to the party again!

As for the Camaro, it is so much more car than this hyundai that the comparison is of dubious value.

[Justin Bimmer]

chimpokemon coupes

Very nice.

[regfootball]

Comm'on Guys... I'm going to say its not a "fair" comparison. For only one reason. The Camaro structure was designed to handle over 500 HP. I'm guessing the Genesis wasn't.

Having a structure capable of over 500 HP greatly changes the amount of reinforcement and the gage of many of the body sub-components. If the Camaro was designed to be a V6 car capable of 300 HP I'm guessing it would weight significantly less.

(And please don't say, that GM should have made two-different bodies to reduce the weight of the V-6. This would cost a litteral fortune.)

I like the Mustang/Challenger/Any other V6 equipped car that is capable of over 450Hp. Comparo personally...

thank you, exactly agree but people are missing that point.

[regfootball]

You missed the point completely, as usual.

I don't think Hyundai was building a 'musclecar'...it's an affordable compact sports coupe. Different market niche. Toyota and Nissan used to build cars like this before they abandoned the market. Think RWD Celica, 240SX (Silvia)..there were also some good ones that were FWD (Honda Prelude, Acura Integra, Acura RSX, later Celicas). This is a car for that market, that doesn't seem to exist anymore in NA.

The only reason it's getting compared to the Camaro (or other V6 ponycars) is the price point, engine, and that it's a 2dr coupe. The Camaro/Mustang/Challenger are in a different category all together but this is where they overlap.

i'm not missing that point. all i am saying is this overlap is tending to be misrepresented by the journalist rags. my points above about the camaro being able to handle a much higher level of performance is not being understood.

lets turn it back on the hyundai. you can buy a new mustang v6 for under 20k. using this litmus test, the hyundai is way overpriced. once ford replaces that base six with the 3.7, the hyundai with the v6 becomes irrelevant as competition because its too pricey or its four popper can't keep up.

the only reason again which is the point i am making, hyundai finally developed a basic competence to do a car like this. woohoo. there is nothing relevant about glorifying this car aside from they finally were able to do this for the first time, that is, equal the performance of the same type of car that other companies have for DECADES.

the comparison is a good study to compare the lighter hyundai vs the heavier camaro and the contrasts in appraoch, but my contention here is a little too much love for the 'upstart' only because they are a new face and new to the game. Any driver in a mid nineties supra could still whack the $h! out of this hyundai, assuming the frame and driveline and suspension don't self destruct over time.

[regfootball]

What this really points out to me is the lack of a sub-Camaro sized RWD V6 offering from GM.

Alpha much?

GM is late to the party again!

As for the Camaro, it is so much more car than this hyundai that the comparison is of dubious value.

camaro fans need and require that heavy chassis that can handle ungodly horsepower and durability requirements. some nut job somewhere is gonna supercharge a v8 to 800hp etc. and expect that the car is up to the task. zeta can take it. otherwise you would not see the cops in LA wanting to buy them.

i welcome anyone to amp up that scoupe coupe and see what its made of. supercharge that beast to 600hp and see if the back end self destructs.

the significance here is that hyundai actually built something that can be part of the party and is a big improvement over the tiburon. another good looking woman at the bar showed up through the door. nothing to get your shorts a tented about IMHO. i bet a mid 90's prelude or a current cobalt SS might give the scoupe coupe a pretty good battle for 95% of the drivers.

question, have we seen a comparo yet between the Tiburon XL and the 370z? that will be the one to make the masses shut up.

Edited May 5, 2009 by regfootball

[A Horse With No Name]

I like both, and while the Camaro's sexy lines call out to me more, I would be happy to have both parking in my driveway, along side a GT500 and a SMS Challenger.

Hey I can dream.

Passed by the Hyundai dealership this evening...they had a few...must check out.

They have a red one out front of a dealership near me. I may go look...but there are still a bunch of cars I'd rather have.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

camaro fans need and require that heavy chassis that can handle ungodly horsepower and durability requirements. some nut job somewhere is gonna supercharge a v8 to 800hp etc. and expect that the car is up to the task. zeta can take it. otherwise you would not see the cops in LA wanting to buy them.

i welcome anyone to amp up that scoupe coupe and see what its made of. supercharge that beast to 600hp and see if the back end self destructs.

the significance here is that hyundai actually built something that can be part of the party and is a big improvement over the tiburon. another good looking woman at the bar showed up through the door. nothing to get your shorts a tented about IMHO. i bet a mid 90's prelude or a current cobalt SS might give the scoupe coupe a pretty good battle for 95% of the drivers.

question, have we seen a comparo yet between the Tiburon XL and the 370z? that will be the one to make the masses shut up.

The current Cobalt SS and the 90's Prelude are both front drivers, the Hyundai is a RWD platform.

Chris

[Z-06]

Reg, previous generation Camaro was 400lb lighter than this one, was structurally less rigid, yet handled the ungodly horsepower people put into it. So no, weight and handling insane amount of horsepower are mutually exclusive.

The problem is that, Zeta was not the right platform for the Camaro. Camaro needed a lighter platform, but GM did not have one that time, hence Camaro went on Zeta light.

The wheelbases of the Camaro and Genesis are within an inch, yet the Camaro is eight inches longer. That is where the extra weight went into. It is even 6 inches longer than the 69 Camaro, which the current car idolizes.

[balthazar]

...the only reason again which is the point i am making, hyundai finally developed a basic competence to do a car like this. woohoo. there is nothing relevant about glorifying this car aside from they finally were able to do this for the first time, that is, equal the performance of the same type of car that other companies have for DECADES.

the comparison is a good study to compare the lighter hyundai vs the heavier camaro and the contrasts in appraoch, but my contention here is a little too much love for the 'upstart' only because they are a new face and new to the game.

I get your point, and it's quite valid.

But this is the same SOP we see time & time again from the rags- Titan & Tundra as Exhibit A & B- no surprise here. The rags pump up anything new & somewhat unexpected because there's a degree of sensationalism that can be pumped. IMO- that's the exact same thing going on here- another generic sporty coupe with anonymous styling & no engineering pedigree to support this level of power from this brand. Major pass.

[hyperv6]

The fact is the Camaro is the best of the old trend of heavy big power RWD cars.

The other fact is the Hyundia is the first in the new trend of light affordable fund to drive coupes. Everyone is watching this and with the new higher fuel economy and emissions coming the smaller car is what they all will move too.

Think of the Hyundia as a modern 64 Mustange that will set the new other will copy and even GM join. I suspect if the Alpha makes it we will see a new Camaro using this trend. It is either adapt or die. Young people today would rather buy light imports with turbos vs old V8 coupes. Yes they are crazy but their sales count too.

GM needs to take money from anyone not just the shrinking field of traditional buyers.

[regfootball]

The current Cobalt SS and the 90's Prelude are both front drivers, the Hyundai is a RWD platform.

Chris

yes, however the cobalt especially i bet can keep darn close with that hyundai go check R/T some of the times the cobalt posted on the raceway compared to the competition.

[regfootball]

Reg, previous generation Camaro was 400lb lighter than this one, was structurally less rigid, yet handled the ungodly horsepower people put into it. So no, weight and handling insane amount of horsepower are mutually exclusive.

The problem is that, Zeta was not the right platform for the Camaro. Camaro needed a lighter platform, but GM did not have one that time, hence Camaro went on Zeta light.

The wheelbases of the Camaro and Genesis are within an inch, yet the Camaro is eight inches longer. That is where the extra weight went into. It is even 6 inches longer than the 69 Camaro, which the current car idolizes.

if you subtract 200 pounds of extra horsepower and airbags and extra frame for crash testing.

crash a mid nineties camaro and crash the new one and you'll know the difference.

[Camino LS6]

Think of it this way:

Take the Camaro drivetrain and put it in a Torana-sized coupe and do this test again.

Anyone want to put some cash on the slanted H?

Because I'll take that bet.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Camino LS6

[Z-06]

Think of it this way:

Take the Camaro drivetrain and put it in a Torana-sized coupe and do this test again.

Anyone want to put some cash on the slanted H?

Because I'll take that bet.

That is the real answer. The real Alpha RWD which can slay anything from slanted H's to the rondels. Till then we have to live with the heft called Zeta, which is not at all bad.

[Z-06]

if you subtract 200 pounds of extra horsepower and airbags and extra frame for crash testing.

crash a mid nineties camaro and crash the new one and you'll know the difference.

That still does not disprove my point that the old Camaro was incapable of handling immense horsepower and no additional strength was needed in the current one to handle the same.

[Cory Wolfe]

Because I can...

i'm not missing that point. all i am saying is this overlap is tending to be misrepresented by the journalist rags. my points above about the camaro being able to handle a much higher level of performance is not being understood.

Proof? So the Camaro has a V8 available. That means diddly squat.

lets turn it back on the hyundai. you can buy a new mustang v6 for under 20k. using this litmus test, the hyundai is way overpriced. once ford replaces that base six with the 3.7, the hyundai with the v6 becomes irrelevant as competition because its too pricey or its four popper can't keep up.

You can buy a Mustang for under 20k, sure. After rebates... and that V6 Mustang is about as inspiring as a rental car. Oh, wait... Nevermind.

the only reason again which is the point i am making, hyundai finally developed a basic competence to do a car like this. woohoo. there is nothing relevant about glorifying this car aside from they finally were able to do this for the first time, that is, equal the performance of the same type of car that other companies have for DECADES.

When is the last time there was a competent, stylish and affordable compact RWD coupe that could perform? Decades? The only one with any similarity in the last twenty years was the 240SX, and Nissan never gave it a worthy engine for the U.S. market. The fact that this car can be compared to cars such as the new Camaro, etc. is, as I said, astounding. And not only that, it's competent in its entirety. This is something you would expect from Nissan, Toyota, or Honda. But Hyundai?

the comparison is a good study to compare the lighter hyundai vs the heavier camaro and the contrasts in appraoch, but my contention here is a little too much love for the 'upstart' only because they are a new face and new to the game. Any driver in a mid nineties supra could still whack the $h! out of this hyundai, assuming the frame and driveline and suspension don't self destruct over time.

Are you kidding me? A Supra? When those were new, they were nearly double the price of the Genesis. Finding one used that hasn't been riced for under $20k is virtually impossible.

camaro fans need and require that heavy chassis that can handle ungodly horsepower and durability requirements. some nut job somewhere is gonna supercharge a v8 to 800hp etc. and expect that the car is up to the task. zeta can take it. otherwise you would not see the cops in LA wanting to buy them.

As Z06 said, the Camaro's weight has absolutely nothing with how much power it can handle. And again, how do you know how much power the Genesis can handle. You are full of misguided assumptions to no end. Point number 1, The Genesis is available with a 375 hp V8, albeit in sedan form. Point number 2, the Genesis coupe is competing in Formula Drift with the 3.8l V6 making more than 480 horsepower after only light modification. They're not even finished tweaking the engine. It was originally said to be upwards of 550hp before the engine was ready for the car.

i welcome anyone to amp up that scoupe coupe and see what its made of. supercharge that beast to 600hp and see if the back end self destructs.

^ See above ^

the significance here is that hyundai actually built something that can be part of the party and is a big improvement over the tiburon. another good looking woman at the bar showed up through the door. nothing to get your shorts a tented about IMHO. i bet a mid 90's prelude or a current cobalt SS might give the scoupe coupe a pretty good battle for 95% of the drivers.

question, have we seen a comparo yet between the Tiburon XL and the 370z? that will be the one to make the masses shut up.

The Z is a two seat sports car that's been compared with the Corvette in the past and is a good $10k more. You're right. Totally right.

I get your point, and it's quite valid.

But this is the same SOP we see time & time again from the rags- Titan & Tundra as Exhibit A & B- no surprise here. The rags pump up anything new & somewhat unexpected because there's a degree of sensationalism that can be pumped. IMO- that's the exact same thing going on here- another generic sporty coupe with anonymous styling & no engineering pedigree to support this level of power from this brand. Major pass.

The naysayers with nary a clue are just as predictable as any rag. You might as well join Reg in arguing senseless points full of assumptions and lacking in facts all day long. It really doesn't make any difference in how successful the Genesis will or will not be. Two closed-minded individuals posting on a small scale forum with a general anti-Import agenda isn't going to change any opinions. You're singing to the choir.

Edited May 6, 2009 by blackviper8891

[Camino LS6]

Actually BV, you are mistaken about the weight in the Camaro.

A significant portion of it is due precisely to the fact that it is engineered for over 500HP.

That is fact.

[Drew Dowdell]

The other fact is the Hyundia is the first in the new trend of light affordable fund to drive coupes. Everyone is watching this and with the new higher fuel economy and emissions coming the smaller car is what they all will move too.

The Camaro V6 gets better milage than the Genesis Coupe V6.

[Z-06]

Actually BV, you are mistaken about the weight in the Camaro.

A significant portion of it is due precisely to the fact that it is engineered for over 500HP.

That is fact.

Honestly, can you explain how?

Yes IRS did add weight compared to the old Camaro, but even with leaf springs Corvette has been a dragon killer in the handling department. How can added weight make a vehicle better performing than a vehicle with stronger strength material?

[balthazar]

>>"The fact is the Camaro is the best of the old trend of heavy big power RWD cars.

The other fact is the Hyundia is the first in the new trend of light affordable fund to drive coupes. Everyone is watching this and with the new higher fuel economy and emissions coming the smaller car is what they all will move too. "<<

The fact is the weight difference is only 8%- meaningless, so that's out.

Figure 8 loop was dead even, but the brakes took a half car length more than the Camaro, car is not as well balanced, slower steering, plus it doesn't have as much RPM to play with. On those counts it'd be LESS "fun to drive", so that's out.

The fact is this "affordable" hyundai was $1905 MORE expensive, so that's out.

The fact is this "higher fuel economy" hyundai got an observed .9 MPG LESS, so that's out.

There is NO "trend" here, and no one is "watching" this. No way to spin it otherwise (unless you are simply in love with the 'lazy H').

Factor styling & performance upgrades (available V-8, plus the aftermarket), and it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

[balthazar]

>>"The naysayers with nary a clue are just as predictable as any rag. You might as well join Reg in arguing senseless points full of assumptions and lacking in facts all day long. It really doesn't make any difference in how successful the Genesis will or will not be. Two closed-minded individuals posting on a small scale forum with a general anti-Import agenda isn't going to change any opinions. You're singing to the choir."<<

Neither do the 'bandwagoners' have a clue and obviously are exactly as predictable as the rags.

See above post for facts and see how open your mind is.

Edited May 6, 2009 by balthazar

[Camino LS6]

Honestly, can you explain how?

Yes IRS did add weight compared to the old Camaro, but even with leaf springs Corvette has been a dragon killer in the handling department. How can added weight make a vehicle better performing than a vehicle with stronger strength material?

Because it is a cost balance between stronger, lighter, materials and more, heavier, materials to achieve the same goal. As horsepower increases, many,many, components need to be upgraded in strength and they gain weight. So a car engineered for high HP, will weigh significantly more than the same car engineered for less power. Even when equipped with a smaller, less powerful engine.

The Camaro has to be capable of handling any engine GM wants to throw at it during its life cycle and much of the structure has to be "baked-in". So a V6 Camaro has much beefier structure than a similar car that is only engineered for a V6.

That's why the ZR-1 weighs more than a Zo6, even though it uses more lightweight components. The components that need to be heavier make that much of a difference!

As for the 4th gen Camaro being lighter, not only were its HP targets lower, but it also didn't have to meet the newer, more stringent crash standards the 5th gen does. Even more weight gets added in that process.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Camino LS6

[Camino LS6]

And the 4th gen also had mostly plastic and fiberglass body panels.

Of all of the exterior panels only the quarters were steel.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Camino LS6

[Z-06]

Because it is a cost balance between stronger, lighter, materials and more, heavier, materials to achieve the same goal. As horsepower increases, many,many, components need to be upgraded in strength and they gain weight. So a car engineered for high HP, will weigh significantly more than the same car engineered for less power. Even when equipped with a smaller, less powerful engine.

The Camaro has to be capable of handling any engine GM wants to throw at it during its life cycle and much of the structure has to be "baked-in". So a V6 Camaro has much beefier structure than a similar car that is only engineered for a V6.

Thta's why the ZR-1 weighs more than a Zo6, even though it uses more lightweight components. The components that need to be heavier make that much of a difference!

As for the 4th gen Camaro being lighter, not only were its HP targets lower, but it also didn't have to meet the newer, more stringent crash standards the 5th gen does. Even more weight gets added in that process.

In reality, the real weight gain for the ZR1 compared to the Z06 came from the supercharger and the fact it was little more over engineered compared to the Z06. Furthermore, Z06 was engineered with C6R and therefore gained the advantage of better weight savings, although some of those did get transferred to ZR1.

I agree with you that it is a balance of money and weight for the same structural rigidity. But look at Cruze, it is about 30% structurally rigid than the Cobalt, yet saves weight by about 60 lbs. The point is GM can DO IT. It does not feel like doing it partly because it cheapens itself in the details. A diversified Alpha can handle the same power of the Zeta and GM does have the capability to, but not the resources (it did few years back, but squandered it.)

My point with this Camaro has always been one. It is such a beautifully balanced, strong car, with performance, fuel economy, and handling belittling the lighter competitors and despite being approx. 10% more heavy than them. Imagine what it would have been if it weighed the same?

[Camino LS6]

In reality, the real weight gain for the ZR1 compared to the Z06 came from the supercharger and the fact it was little more over engineered compared to the Z06. Furthermore, Z06 was engineered with C6R and therefore gained the advantage of better weight savings, although some of those did get transferred to ZR1.

I agree with you that it is a balance of money and weight for the same structural rigidity. But look at Cruze, it is about 30% structurally rigid than the Cobalt, yet saves weight by about 60 lbs. The point is GM can DO IT. It does not feel like doing it partly because it cheapens itself in the details. A diversified Alpha can handle the same power of the Zeta and GM does have the capability to, but not the resources (it did few years back, but squandered it.)

My point with this Camaro has always been one. It is such a beautifully balanced, strong car, with performance, fuel economy, and handling belittling the lighter competitors and despite being approx. 10% more heavy than them. Imagine what it would have been if it weighed the same?

Trust me, every possible ounce of weight that could be removed from Camaro was.

It is as light as it could be while remaining true to concept, meeting price point, meeting fuel economy, meeting crash standards, handling the power, and being based on Zeta.

A smaller overall Camaro (alpha) could best it without doubt, but at least zeta isn't vaporware.

Chevy walked one hell of a tightrope creating this car, and they did a fantastic job.

[Camino LS6]

You know what's funny about this Camaro?

It's almost big enough for me to want it like I would a Chevelle, not quite but almost.

In a perfect world, I'd love to see a larger Chevy coupe, and a smaller Camaro.

Ah, dreams.

[Cory Wolfe]

>>"The naysayers with nary a clue are just as predictable as any rag. You might as well join Reg in arguing senseless points full of assumptions and lacking in facts all day long. It really doesn't make any difference in how successful the Genesis will or will not be. Two closed-minded individuals posting on a small scale forum with a general anti-Import agenda isn't going to change any opinions. You're singing to the choir."<<

Neither do the 'bandwagoners' have a clue and obviously are exactly as predictable as the rags.

See above post for facts and see how open your mind is.

Facts that show what? I'm not saying the Genesis is any better than the Camaro. I said it can compete. What you posted shows that to be true.

Because it is a cost balance between stronger, lighter, materials and more, heavier, materials to achieve the same goal. As horsepower increases, many,many, components need to be upgraded in strength and they gain weight. So a car engineered for high HP, will weigh significantly more than the same car engineered for less power. Even when equipped with a smaller, less powerful engine.

The Camaro has to be capable of handling any engine GM wants to throw at it during its life cycle and much of the structure has to be "baked-in". So a V6 Camaro has much beefier structure than a similar car that is only engineered for a V6.

How much of that is solely to handle the power, however? What is a 'significant portion' defined as?

Unless you have specific figures to prove anything, don't tell me I'm mistaken. Tell me exactly how much of that weight went towards being able to handle 40% more power than what's offered and where that weight is. I would love to hear the specifics. If I'm wrong, show me the data to prove it. What I'd like to see even more is the data to prove the Camaro is any more engineered to handle that power than the Genesis. Both platforms were engineered for V8s and both platforms are being equipped with tuned engines in certain motorsports. Show me how they differ and I'll listen.

[Justin Bimmer]

I'm going to wait for Consumer Reports to do a comparative test before I form more opinions. . .

[Intrepidation]

Circles.

This thread is going in them.

[Camino LS6]

Facts that show what? I'm not saying the Genesis is any better than the Camaro. I said it can compete. What you posted shows that to be true.

How much of that is solely to handle the power, however? What is a 'significant portion' defined as?

Unless you have specific figures to prove anything, don't tell me I'm mistaken. Tell me exactly how much of that weight went towards being able to handle 40% more power than what's offered and where that weight is. I would love to hear the specifics. If I'm wrong, show me the data to prove it. What I'd like to see even more is the data to prove the Camaro is any more engineered to handle that power than the Genesis. Both platforms were engineered for V8s and both platforms are being equipped with tuned engines in certain motorsports. Show me how they differ and I'll listen.

I'm not sure that anyone is going to have "exact" numbers for you as it applies to V6 Camaros. But if you think it over yourself, I'd bet that you can come up with some of the answers on your own.

Here, I'll ask you a few questions.

Where in the structure of a car do you think you'd have to increase strength as you increase horsepower?

Imagine all of the systems affected.

Now ask yourself how much of that you would engineer twice so that you could offer both high and low power versions of the car.

That's where the weight is.

Most of it resides in the structural members of the car (unibody/subframes...), but it also affects every other mechanical system in the car.

So, the V6 Camaro has much beefier components than it would if only the V6 were to be offered.

The car had to be designed to meet the maximum powerplant, so it is overengineered and reinforced for lesser drivetrains.

In the case of Camaro, weight reduction was one of the design parameters - so this car is no overweight pig that could have been a featherweight. The Camaro team was constantly badgered about this exact issue all through development once the Camaro crowd learned that it was to be built on Zeta.

If they could make money marketing a "stripper" a few more pounds could come off, the same goes for easier safety regulations, or they could have saved a bit of weight by using a live rear axle rather than IRS.

But that's about it.

The only other solutions are raising the price quite a bit by using expensive lightweight materials in more places, or shrinking the car to a smaller platform.

Still, with only an 8% differnece in weight vs. Genesis, would it be worth it?

The Genesis itself is not offered with a V8. Are you sure that it has been engineered for one?

Concepts don't count here, and I'm just asking, not claiming to know.

I can tell you this for certain though. If Genesis is engineered (as produced) for a V8, then it weighs more than it needs to. And, if it ever gets one, it will weigh quite a bit more than the few pounds added by the larger engine because other components will need to be augmented.

I'm not trying to fight you here,BV.

[Camino LS6]

Circles.

This thread is going in them.

Not if you read carefully.

[regfootball]

The Camaro V6 gets better milage than the Genesis Coupe V6.

less expensive also

[regfootball]

Honestly, can you explain how?

Yes IRS did add weight compared to the old Camaro, but even with leaf springs Corvette has been a dragon killer in the handling department. How can added weight make a vehicle better performing than a vehicle with stronger strength material?

corvette has no backseat, fiberglass body panels, and a wood floor. its space frame is a much less extensive design than a complete steel unibody camaro that is much larger.

add a backseat and all that to a corvette and it will get heavier too.

bmw routinely sends porkers to the market as does mercedes and we don't see criticism there. the only bmw that is efficient to its size for weight are the most basic 3 and 5 series.

[regfootball]

and someone here has admitted the hyundai basically just competes in the class which is the whole point of my argument.

they can compete now. why is this being trumpeted from the mountaintop? Others have been doing this routinely for years.

Buy the car because you like the car and its the best choice. Not only because its the new pretty face at the bar. New does not equate to superior just because it showed up for the game finally.

I guess if you like coupes styled in the asian vein then maybe it really is a big accomplishment, even if its like saying 'my kid can pee in the toilet and not miss'

Edited May 6, 2009 by regfootball

[Intrepidation]

Not if you read carefully.

I am, and it is going in circles.

Team A: The Hyundai deserved to win because it's a good car

Team B: MT is the bias and it didn't deserve to win.

Team A: I refuse to see your points and stand by my opinion.

Team B: I refuse to see your points and stand by my opinion.

Repeat for infinity!

[hyperv6]

The Camaro V6 gets better milage than the Genesis Coupe V6.

But you do not note that the Hyundia is not even fully developed with things like DI and other advances thew Camaro has.

Lets face it the V6 Camaro is at the limit on MPG witht he present tech. IF GM was not worried about the future they would have not been considering a Eco Turbo last fall.

The Camaro is a great car and my own personel choice. But I as well as many here we are no longer the majority in the public.

We complain about GM not meet the market needs but this is where the future is going and they need to move in that direction.

Kids today in their little imports and turbo 4 cylinders could care less about the V8 engines. let alone a V65 in a heavy car. They are the buying future like it or not. THese are the buyers who had a WRX poster on the wall not a Z28.

The Camaro now is meeting the Goverment numbers but soon even what it does now will not be enough. THere are even those who are willing to push the MPG higher and with the Majority held by one party it could happen if enough agree with them.

The key to the future is smaller lighter RWD coupe in the market. THe drive for RWD is directly to the new Drifting trend. The import guys want affordable REW packaged with the engines they love. It just so happens this kind of car fits the future better than a large V8 car in several ways.

Like I said they Hyundia is the trend of where this is all going. Others are watching and planning and I hope GM is also planning to be at the party on time and not late as the norm.

[Camino LS6]

I am, and it is going in circles.

Team A: The Hyundai deserved to win because it's a good car

Team B: MT is the bias and it didn't deserve to win.

Team A: I refuse to see your points and stand by my opinion.

Team B: I refuse to see your points and stand by my opinion.

Repeat for infinity!

Too bad you see it that way, I don't.

I see more information in this thread than the original article.

[Drew Dowdell]

But you do not note that the Hyundia is not even fully developed with things like DI and other advances thew Camaro has.

Who here said that Chevy could not put the Turbo-Ecotec in the car?

Remember they have a version of the Ecotec that puts out 300hp and they have the BAS-II Turbo Ecotec that has an amazing torque curve.

Chevy isn't done yet.

[regfootball]

i am pretty sure GM could squeeze the hp on the 3.6 to about 320 without much work. its well documented why the camaro is larger. suck it up, its here for at least 5 years in its present form. thing is, its a monster that will take any engine you put in it. GM has a great history of tuning its cars over time and i have every confidence we will see magneto shocks on it and such. they may find ways to trim 100 pounds. most people who have ever made a car payment without dad or mom co-signing on the loan would be quite impressed with the world class capability of the car.

it will be interesting to see the age and credit demographic of the tiburon XL.

[Z-06]

corvette has no backseat, fiberglass body panels, and a wood floor. its space frame is a much less extensive design than a complete steel unibody camaro that is much larger.

add a backseat and all that to a corvette and it will get heavier too.

bmw routinely sends porkers to the market as does mercedes and we don't see criticism there. the only bmw that is efficient to its size for weight are the most basic 3 and 5 series.

Again invalid. I was comparing the Corvette with its competition, NOT Camaro. I have bitched about 3ers being overweight, and Mercedes are something I have never cared about, so I do not care if they weigh as much as a feather.

The point is GM CAN make cars structurally rigid without increasing their weight, but somehow not enough engineering went into Zeta.

[hyperv6]

Who here said that Chevy could not put the Turbo-Ecotec in the car?

Remember they have a version of the Ecotec that puts out 300hp and they have the BAS-II Turbo Ecotec that has an amazing torque curve.

Chevy isn't done yet.

As someone who drives a 290 HP Eco daily in a 3200 pound car and I would not want to be pulling a pound more. I know well what that combo can do. I love my Turbo Eco but would have interest of one in a Camaro as it presently is.

The Camaro is a great car and the Eco Tubo is a great engine but they do not work together.

A smaller Alpha with a a tubo eco and RWD would be like a Solstice that real people could use and drive daily and haul things as well as a$$.

I think what many miss here is the performance gains of a lighter car. Imagine the present brakes handling with a a lighter package. Weight redustions provide performance bigger engines alone can't give. Too often many here forget or do not understand less is often more!

[Drew Dowdell]

Going from the V6 to the Ecotec would drop how many lbs?

[Z-06]

Going from the V6 to the Ecotec would drop how many lbs?

74 lbs.

3.6 DI 381 lb

2.0LNF 307 lb

[Cory Wolfe]

I'm not sure that anyone is going to have "exact" numbers for you as it applies to V6 Camaros. But if you think it over yourself, I'd bet that you can come up with some of the answers on your own.

Here, I'll ask you a few questions.

Where in the structure of a car do you think you'd have to increase strength as you increase horsepower?

Imagine all of the systems affected.

Now ask yourself how much of that you would engineer twice so that you could offer both high and low power versions of the car.

That's where the weight is.

Most of it resides in the structural members of the car (unibody/subframes...), but it also affects every other mechanical system in the car.

So, the V6 Camaro has much beefier components than it would if only the V6 were to be offered.

The car had to be designed to meet the maximum powerplant, so it is overengineered and reinforced for lesser drivetrains.

In the case of Camaro, weight reduction was one of the design parameters - so this car is no overweight pig that could have been a featherweight. The Camaro team was constantly badgered about this exact issue all through development once the Camaro crowd learned that it was to be built on Zeta.

If they could make money marketing a "stripper" a few more pounds could come off, the same goes for easier safety regulations, or they could have saved a bit of weight by using a live rear axle rather than IRS.

But that's about it.

The only other solutions are raising the price quite a bit by using expensive lightweight materials in more places, or shrinking the car to a smaller platform.

Still, with only an 8% differnece in weight vs. Genesis, would it be worth it?

The Genesis itself is not offered with a V8. Are you sure that it has been engineered for one?

Concepts don't count here, and I'm just asking, not claiming to know.

I can tell you this for certain though. If Genesis is engineered (as produced) for a V8, then it weighs more than it needs to. And, if it ever gets one, it will weigh quite a bit more than the few pounds added by the larger engine because other components will need to be augmented.

I'm not trying to fight you here,BV.

I have no doubts about what you said, it's just the principle of the matter. If you're going to say I'm mistaken, prove it. Otherwise, there's nothing to consider besides some claim by some fanatical forum member. If someone says "You're wrong, but I can't prove how", are you really going to listen?

Per the Genesis, I'm not going to doubt that Camaro most likely is more heavilly engineered, despite the lack of any proof. However, one of the comments made was based on how Zeta is engineered to handle the extra power of whatever GM may throw at it. In the same vein, the Genesis coupe is on a shared platform, as well, with the Genesis sedan and Equus, available with a 375 hp V8. Then, to also consider is the Genesis coupe in Formula Drift competition thats currently making nearly 500 hp on a light dyno run and an engine they're still tuning. Considering that's the same argument being used to show the Camaro is engineered to handle more power, I could easily go ahead and make the same claims for the Genesis coupe that everyone and their mother are making for the Camaro. As I said, what's the difference? Neither you nor myself have actual proof, so who's right? That is why I stand here defending the Genesis.

and someone here has admitted the hyundai basically just competes in the class which is the whole point of my argument.

they can compete now. why is this being trumpeted from the mountaintop? Others have been doing this routinely for years.

Buy the car because you like the car and its the best choice. Not only because its the new pretty face at the bar. New does not equate to superior just because it showed up for the game finally.

I guess if you like coupes styled in the asian vein then maybe it really is a big accomplishment, even if its like saying 'my kid can pee in the toilet and not miss'

What argument? You have no argument. You've said absolutely nothing that means anything to anyone other than yourself.

Again, this segment has been dead for years. I agree with many others that say the Genesis and Camaro are not direct competition. The fact they can compete so well is surprising, for both vehicles. Each one is a class act that are going after a different audience. The problem is, only one is receiving the recognition it deserves here. Why? "It's not as good as its touted to be." Why? "A fifteen year old car it doesn't compete with is so much better." Why? "It just competes, it doesn't beat cars outside its competition." Why? "It's not engineered as well." Why? "It doesn't have heritage styling." Why? "Others have been doing this for decades." Why? "It's a Hyundai." Over and over; assumptions, senselessness, lack of anything fact-based and the stupidest reasoning possible. No facts. No equality or fairness. That is why I stand here defending the Genesis.

Seriously, does anyone have anything to add that's not the same old &#036;h&#33;, regurgitated again and again throughout this thread? No one can provide me with any facts to back up anything they say.

[hyperv6]

Going from the V6 to the Ecotec would drop how many lbs?

Not enoough!

Also does this weight factor in intercooler and other added parts for the Eco?

Less weight is more performance stopping turning and going. Is this not what we all want more of? Less power is need to achieve present levels of performance. This leads to lighter stuctures needed and lighter affordable cars.

GM is already marketing this car vs the imports as they see the future and where the market is heading. Read the story in the new Hot Rod when it comes out and you will see they even mention this car was originally marketed as a Pony car now they are trying to target the gowing import coupe market that was not even around when the Camaro show car was shown.

The fact is the auto market is evolving and GM is going to change with it or die. Even we as enthusiast need to learn to adapt and find everything new is not always bad. Other wise we would be a buch of bitter, narrow minded out of touch folks posting on web sites. [referance is not directed at anyone particuler just a referance to a general way of thinking]

Also keep in mind I would never buy the Hyundia but I would lover to have a smaller RWD GM coupe with the new twin tubo Opel V6 snd the 1.4 Turbo base engine. Add some 14 inch brakes and nice tires and wheels in a smaller profile than the Camaro. Oh and a back seat that someone other than LT Dan from Forrest Gump could sit in. THey can keep the Camaro along side but I would love to see a car like this sold in the future before it is just another GM catch up.

The Camaro will do fine for the time it is planned to here but the new trend is in another direction. GM needs to start in that direction now to be there in at least 5 years. Longer would prove fatal.

The fact we all need to understand is people under 30 less and less car about Mustangs and Camaro. In the past they were the only two to consider. Now buyers do not have the I have to have a V8 sydorme let alone an American Pony car. The new younger buyers ar emore open minded and their money is as good as anyone elses. GM needs to get as much of their money as they can and not let it go to the other companies.

Edited May 6, 2009 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

>>"That is why I stand here defending the Genesis."<<

Why?

>>"...also consider is the Genesis coupe in Formula Drift competition thats currently making nearly 500 hp"<<

If this is proof to meet your criteria that the genesis is well-engineered, would you not also consider that Lingenfelter has a tested 800HP package for the Camaro as 'proof' of the degree of it's engineering, and the 290 lbs more it subsequently carries ??

>>"Over and over; assumptions, senselessness, lack of anything fact-based and the stupidest reasoning possible. "<<

Isn't the general attitude here you are railing against the very same many people (tho maybe not you) have stated against any new GM- that it cannot merely equal the current benchmark, but WRT it's damaged reputation, it "must!!" exceed the benchmark to gain sales??

The genisis is a brand new engine & platform & bodyshell, from a nameplate that had never built something like this before. It's more money, handles no better, get worse mileage, brakes worse, steers slower, revs lower (all facts), yet you seem to give it carte blanc for no other reason than hyundai built complete sh*t 5 years ago and this isn't that. What exactly is so amazingly compelling here ??

Edited May 7, 2009 by balthazar