Motor Trend Compares Camaro and Genesis 3.8

[Intrepidation]

[Cory Wolfe]

>>"That is why I stand here defending the Genesis."<<

Why?

>>"...also consider is the Genesis coupe in Formula Drift competition thats currently making nearly 500 hp"<<

If this is proof to meet your criteria that the genesis is well-engineered, would you not also consider that Lingenfelter has a tested 800HP package for the Camaro as 'proof' of the degree of it's engineering, and the 290 lbs more it subsequently carries ??

>>"Over and over; assumptions, senselessness, lack of anything fact-based and the stupidest reasoning possible. "<<

Isn't the general attitude here you are railing against the very same many people (tho maybe not you) have stated against any new GM- that it cannot merely equal the current benchmark, but WRT it's damaged reputation, it "must!!" exceed the benchmark to gain sales??

The genisis is a brand new engine & platform & bodyshell, from a nameplate that had never built something like this before. It's more money, handles no better, get worse mileage, brakes worse, steers slower, revs lower (all facts), yet you seem to give it carte blanc for no other reason than hyundai built complete sh*t 5 years ago and this isn't that. What exactly is so amazingly compelling here ??

I'm using it in the same vein as that, which was my point. Again, I'm not going to deny any claims that one is more heavilly (literally) engineered than the other. However, if we only have similar amount of proof, what does it really matter? Regardless of what 'package' is packing more power, its not very good proof of anything. As I said, I'd like to see the raw data to support the claims made by others, not simply "company X has tested this amount of power in car Y".

I don't care what people may have stated against GM. It's completely irrelevant and I'm not in that boat. Simply put, I don't agree to stooping to that level to prove a point as so many do here. I've rallied against this many times in the past and I always get the same old line. Honestly, why bother? Are you really going to solve anything by stooping to a lower level? No.

I personally love how anytime someone defends a foreign car here, it's met with all of this bull&#036;h&#33;... And I really doubt it has anything to do with the cars themselves.

Per the car itself, again, I'm not comparing it to the Camaro. As far as I'm concerned, they don't compete directly. As I've been saying, both are great cars. Those "facts" are like saying a Lamborghini isn't as good as a Ferrari. The differences are so little and the cars are both compelling in similar, and in different, ways. One caters a more mature demographic with more emphasis on grabbing you with its design and higher performing trim levels while the other caters to a younger, more tuner oriented demographic focusing on refinement and modern trends... One puts a modern, yet history rich twist on an existing segment that's been dominated by its arch rival, while the other revives a segment that hasn't been popular since the 80s. Yet, both of them do it for an affordable price without many compromises. Two thoroughly well rounded coupes that do that they are intended to do, and do so very well.

Edited May 7, 2009 by blackviper8891

[Robert Hall]

I personally love how anytime someone defends a foreign car here, it's met with all of this bull&#036;h&#33;... And I really doubt it has anything to do with the cars themselves.

Keep in mind it is a GM forum...obviously, many here are going to be biased towards GM. That said, it would be nice to see GM have a compact, light RWD sports coupe like the Genesis, that's what could have been had GM kept Pontiac and Alpha survived.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Cubical

[balthazar]

>>"...would be nice to see GM have a compact, light RWD sports coupe..."<<

Solstice coupe : quarter-ton lighter & 25" shorter than the genesis.

Edited May 7, 2009 by balthazar

[Satty]

>>"...would be nice to see GM have a compact, light RWD sports coupe..."<<

Solstice coupe : quarter-ton lighter & 25" shorter than the genesis.

...like the Genesis....

You just picked a convenient place to edit.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Satty

[Robert Hall]

>>"...would be nice to see GM have a compact, light RWD sports coupe..."<<

Solstice coupe : quarter-ton lighter & 25" shorter than the genesis.

It's a 2 seat sports car, different category from the 4 seat Genesis.

[balthazar]

>>"You just picked a convenient place to edit. "<<

His post is right above mine & I mentioned it in my edit. I think people understood it completely, but thanks for the conspiracy theory.

-- -- -- -- --

So how frickin' close to a given 'vunderkar' does a competitor have to be: within 1% in dimesions/weight ??

Within 2% of power/performance? Within 3% on price ??

All this mindset does is incessantly carve a segment up into a dozen-&-a-half sub-segments, where Car A & Car B 'don't compete' with each other because B is 4" longer than A. It's madness, and there's really no room for it anymore. The overall field is shrinking and it's going to continue to. Dimensional ranges are also contracting. Splitting cars that are within 94% of each other with give-n-take performance no longer makes sense.

And demographics are seconday at best, because they usually change a while AFTER a new element is added to the mix.

[Drew Dowdell]

Give it up Balthy. I get shouted down all the time because I maintain that the CTS and 5-series are the same class of car. Somehow even though their dimensions are within 10ths of an inch of each other, power train outputs similar, feature list similar, they aren't the same car because the CTS doesn't offer a V8 because an LS6 isn't a real V8 somehow....

*head spins*

[balthazar]

>>"Give it up Balthy. "<<

Nope; hardheaded; I won't do it; it's idiotic and I refuse.

>>"It's a 2 seat sports car, different category from the 4 seat Genesis."<<

2-seats, 4 seats; categories are so over already. It's primarily PR marketing spin to 'limit competition' and make your own vehicle look that much better. "Best in class" is about as meaningful these days as "the check's in the mail".

In a sports car, no one is loading 800-1000 lbs of people in, then carving the canyons at 9/10ths.

That'd be like commuting, party of 1, in a limousine with gas at $5/per.

You want a compact, affordable, lightweight RWD sports car?? (And when did 3500 lbs become 'light' ?)

Solstice : room for 2, great handling, 3000lbs, 260 HP. Yer purse pooch can ride shotgun, moltar.

-- -- -- -- --

I agree almost entirely with you on the CTS/5-series, Olds, except I still believe most people shop with a price ceiling as the primary criteria. In other words: the CTS / 5-series absolutely compete with each other spec-wise, but I think the CTS / 3-series get cross-shopped more due to price tags... would love to learn some numbers here.

[Cory Wolfe]

>>"Give it up Balthy. "<<

Nope; hardheaded; I won't do it; it's idiotic and I refuse.

Indeed.

[Intrepidation]

Self pwnage.

[regfootball]

I'm using it in the same vein as that, which was my point. Again, I'm not going to deny any claims that one is more heavilly (literally) engineered than the other. However, if we only have similar amount of proof, what does it really matter? Regardless of what 'package' is packing more power, its not very good proof of anything. As I said, I'd like to see the raw data to support the claims made by others, not simply "company X has tested this amount of power in car Y".

I don't care what people may have stated against GM. It's completely irrelevant and I'm not in that boat. Simply put, I don't agree to stooping to that level to prove a point as so many do here. I've rallied against this many times in the past and I always get the same old line. Honestly, why bother? Are you really going to solve anything by stooping to a lower level? No.

I personally love how anytime someone defends a foreign car here, it's met with all of this bull&#036;h&#33;... And I really doubt it has anything to do with the cars themselves.

Per the car itself, again, I'm not comparing it to the Camaro. As far as I'm concerned, they don't compete directly. As I've been saying, both are great cars. Those "facts" are like saying a Lamborghini isn't as good as a Ferrari. The differences are so little and the cars are both compelling in similar, and in different, ways. One caters a more mature demographic with more emphasis on grabbing you with its design and higher performing trim levels while the other caters to a younger, more tuner oriented demographic focusing on refinement and modern trends... One puts a modern, yet history rich twist on an existing segment that's been dominated by its arch rival, while the other revives a segment that hasn't been popular since the 80s. Yet, both of them do it for an affordable price without many compromises. Two thoroughly well rounded coupes that do that they are intended to do, and do so very well.

well car and driver for one said the genesis lacked refinement and needed finishing school and was impressed with the camaros refinement. but you are saying the hyundai is all about refinement. hmmmmmmmmm. and you talk about 'having facts'.

its interesting to ponder where the hyundai might be underengineered. using 3500# x .56 nose heavy front of the genesis (BMW fans would heckle that all day long) and 3800# .52 camaro, the hyundai actually would have more weight on the front end. that 300 pounds extra the camaro is tarting around in the rear is not merely explained by wasteful use of weight. it also makes me wonder why a car like the gen coupe if it is supposed to be in the vein of the light 240sx type cars from the past, why is the front end such a brick? Sounds like inefficient engineering to me on hyundai's part.

and i'm sorry but if the 240sx and gen coupe and other cars in this vein was such a popular segment, why is this the only car in it? there's a reason the other rwd cars are bigger and sturdier, and why the other lighter cars are fwd.

Edited May 8, 2009 by regfootball

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

I wonder how long it will take for the Corvettes carbon fiber to filter down onto other cars to make them lighter?

[Cory Wolfe]

well car and driver for one said the genesis lacked refinement and needed finishing school and was impressed with the camaros refinement. but you are saying the hyundai is all about refinement. hmmmmmmmmm. and you talk about 'having facts'.

its interesting to ponder where the hyundai might be underengineered. using 3500# x .56 nose heavy front of the genesis (BMW fans would heckle that all day long) and 3800# .52 camaro, the hyundai actually would have more weight on the front end. that 300 pounds extra the camaro is tarting around in the rear is not merely explained by wasteful use of weight. it also makes me wonder why a car like the gen coupe if it is supposed to be in the vein of the light 240sx type cars from the past, why is the front end such a brick? Sounds like inefficient engineering to me on hyundai's part.

and i'm sorry but if the 240sx and gen coupe and other cars in this vein was such a popular segment, why is this the only car in it? there's a reason the other rwd cars are bigger and sturdier, and why the other lighter cars are fwd.

If magazine quotes were facts, this thread would have ended with the first post, technically. There's a whole bunch of "facts" listed right there. I have not quoted any magazine and do not plan on doing so. I state my own personal judgment and question the statements made without substance.

I never said it was a popular segment, either. I simply said it was virtually reviving it, the success of which, is yet to be determined.

Again, with the assumptions and negative attitude. You know everything, Reg. It's okay, we know that you know everything. There's no need to show it in every post of yours. Every once in a while, perhaps you could pretend that you don't. You still would, of course, but it'd be like you didn't. Wouldn't that be amazing? Think of all those people you could fool with a neutral attitude! I understand, though... When you know it all, why hide it?

Edited May 9, 2009 by blackviper8891

[A Horse With No Name]

>>"...would be nice to see GM have a compact, light RWD sports coupe..."<<

Solstice coupe : quarter-ton lighter & 25" shorter than the genesis.

Not just yes but hell yes...

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

...and actually, I welcome competition for the new Camaro. Competition equals controversy which seems to equal interest from people.

To me the Camaro shoudl more than hold its own. I was amazed to see that they were only a point or two apart in the comparo.

Chris

[regfootball]

viper, i am glad hyundai revived that segment, but imho, they failed in two key areas.......1- styling, its too derivitive. 2- the base engine could have and should have been larger. a 2.5 would be more appropriate.

my other reservation here is for the v6 money on the hyundai, a WRX with ALL wheel drive makes more sense if you want to talk competition. and the rx8, which aside from lame rotary engine, is a better choice for not a lot more money.

[FAPTurbo]

Styling is subjective; I don't think the Hyundai is all that and a bag of chips in the 'looks' department. But this is is really a poor-man's 350Z, and the base model is a bargoon. For around town, the four is perfectly fine anyways if you just want a sports car with RWD.

[Cory Wolfe]

viper, i am glad hyundai revived that segment, but imho, they failed in two key areas.......1- styling, its too derivitive. 2- the base engine could have and should have been larger. a 2.5 would be more appropriate.

my other reservation here is for the v6 money on the hyundai, a WRX with ALL wheel drive makes more sense if you want to talk competition. and the rx8, which aside from lame rotary engine, is a better choice for not a lot more money.

Displacement isn't the key here, it's turbocharged. For a base engine, it's not a standout, true, but it's fairly adequate at 210 hp. Styling is subjective.

[regfootball]

the styling is not bad. just not groundbreaking or unique.

[AAS]

the styling is not bad. just not groundbreaking or unique.

My opinion is the opposite. I don't like the kink in the belt line, or the front end design which looks sort of droopy and generally not appealing. I do like the rear.

For perspective I always liked the styling on the Tiburon (especially the last generation), and I would have loved to have seen that go RWD.